Show Notes
The gang starts to have doubts about Angel's loyalties when he appears to have become very close with the Circle of the Black Thorn, a secret demon society.
View Full Transcript
Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you.
Hey, guys, welcome back to Becoming Buffy. Becoming Buffy?
Oh, no.
Well, it was bound to happen one of these days. Two episodes from the end and I'm confusing my podcast. I haven't even led Becoming Buffy in like two months. Two, three months.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Do you miss it? Is that why?
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Maybe my subconscious is telling me everyone's like, what? What podcast are we on? No, sorry, guys, this is Investigating Angel.
Forgive me, I was up way too late last night making an edit and I should not have been.
But yes, we are the podcast Investigating Angel. This is Leia, not Leah. I'm Sarah. I know that's a bit confusing because I'm both, but today we're Talking about Season 5, Episode 21, Power Play, written by David Fury, directed by James A. Cotner. Aired May 12, 2004.
Okay, what'd you think of this episode, Leia?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: I thought it was good. I mean, I feel like this episode is like a two parter with the next episode. Yeah, a lot gets revealed in this episode, which I guess we'll talk about when we get there. I have a lot of thoughts. Some of them are mixed, some of them are good, some of them are bad.
But overall I thought it was. I mean, it's a. It's a good episode. A lot happens. You're definitely not going to be bored watching this episode.
And it's basically like this is like the end game.
So. Yeah, it was good. It was good. What did you think?
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, same. I was very entertained.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: And I can't say that about every single episode this season. I think there's been a couple of like, stinkers. But I mean, overall it's been great. But this episode, I really.
My eyes were glued to the screen. It was just very. There was a lot of stuff happening, a lot of really interesting dynamics. Obviously, we like. No one is shocked by the fact that Angel's not actually evil, but it was just. It was fun to watch the gang, like, struggle with this. And then lots of interesting dialogue and everything. And then the effects were really cool. And that final scene is just so good. But I was the big thing that I thought was really interesting. And I was curious what you think about it. I think we kind of talked about a little bit, but it was really interesting watching this episode after Time Bomb. So I think we told everybody, but we recorded the girl in Question before we recorded Time Bomb, so. So we just recorded Time Bomb a couple of days ago, and it was really interesting to watch it in that order versus having the girl in question in between. And to be honest, I don't know how you can watch the girl in Question. This episode is so intense.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like if they had switched the girl in question in Time Bomb and then just went with it that way, but then the episode before the girl in question is Origin, but that. That kind of would have made sense. Like, Angel's off in Rome and Wesley is dealing with Illyria, and so they don't even get to talk about everything, and then they jump into Time Bomb, and then this and this. So I feel like if they had switched the two episodes, it might be a little bit more digestible, like a little break before everything gets intense again. But then, yeah, the way that it's set up now, it's like, Time Bomb.
The most silly, stupidest episode in the Buffy verse. And then the most intense, like, build up to the finale with Lore Drop and, like. Like, evil schemes and.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Well, I think Secret Plans.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: My biggest thing was the. The. The group dynamic. And I think, like, Spike and Angel kicking and, like, you know, being just BFFs and Broskis and all that stuff. And then, bam, now we're in this one and, you know, Spike's ready to go take angel down. Like, it's such a huge switch, and.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: It'S only been two months since. You're welcome.
Where things were a lot lighter. Like, I don't know. It's. Yeah, it's. It's just a very weird period of time.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: I feel like if they had told us, like, oh, it's been a few months, maybe we could have assumed, like, there was a time jump maybe from the girl in question to this. Like, a few. Like, maybe two months between the girl in question and this episode. It might have helped to be like, oh, maybe over the course of two months, the relationships have deteriorated.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: But to be. To be honest, like, I'm surprised that the relationships haven't deteriorated before. Like, and that's the thing. That's the thing.
Critically Touched made the excellent point that, like, the plan, like, works on a thematic level to a certain Partially. To a certain extent.
And then partially on a plot level, the Blackthorn is kind of thrown in there. But it works best on a character level because we really believe that all these characters would get to this place in their life where they're more than ready to just throw their lives away and Kind of go out with a statement.
And they're also kind of at a place where they're so fractured with each other that they would believe that angel would do this.
And so I think that's what makes this the most believable to me.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: But that's also why I.
I hate it.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: No, yeah, no, that's valid. That's valid.
It's not comfy to watch.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just. I don't know if it's because this is a rewatch, and I feel like we've just watched these characters get, like, drilled down to tiny little nubs over the course of several seasons now, but this is just hella depressing.
And it's like. I almost want to say, like, it's not the show that I signed up for, because it is, like, this is.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: The show that I signed up for this before Leia.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I have seen this before, but I feel like. I don't know. Watching it again so closely and having to pay attention to all the characters so closely, it's just. It's depressing.
It's just, like, I don't agree with this plan on, like, a logical level. I understand why they're doing it. I just, like, disagree with it deeply. And I.
As of right now, I think it goes against, like, everything that the show is about.
But, I mean, we haven't watched the finale yet, and I might change my mind on that. But, like. Yeah, it's just. I've never been a huge fan of the plan, and.
And I get what you're saying. Like, the characters have been brought to this point, but at the same time, like, these characters are supposed to be, like, resilient and, like, they've. They've lived through worse things.
So it's like, I don't believe that.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: I'm looking at them all literally, like, they are one bad day away from just, you know, like, it's.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: I guess you can look at it as, like, the only way out of Wolfram and Hart is, like, it's like a gang. Like, the only way out is in a coffin.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: And that's the thing. Like, okay, we send each other multiple voicemails or voice messages today going back and forth. So, like, you know, you're gonna hear this for the second or third time, but I. And I'll talk mostly about my feelings about the plan once we get to the end of the episode. But the thing that bothered me the most, I was telling you this, is, like, they never pursued other options. It always seemed like it's like, we either go out of Wolverine Heart with a body bag or we just stick it out. And we clearly can't stick it out anymore, so we're gonna die trying to. To leave. And it's like. But that never was stated. Like, I'm curious.
Like, they. They always said the catch was the business. You have to run the business in order for it to keep working. And that's supposed to be the thing that keeps angel there, the fact that he can do more good here.
But it's like, well, what would happen if he just walked and goes, we're going back to Angel Investigations. On a smaller scale. Would Wolfram and Hart let him? I think they would because he's supposed to be integral to the apocalypse, so they can't kill him.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I think there is something to be said about Wolfram and Hart not allowing that now that he's has more intel about, like, the ins and outs of the business. Like, I think there is something to say about, like, they don't. They wouldn't mind killing all of his friends.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: That's true. No. Yeah.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Everybody else would be dead because they know too much. And then angel would probably be, like, held in a container like Pavane until they're ready to do whatever they want with him.
So I can see that being the only way out of Wolfram and Heart is to do something really, really extreme.
I think we were talking about this in the Discord today. I think the ending of this season would have really benefited, and it would be a lot more digestible, at least for me, if there was a season six, like, an aftermath of what happens. Because I feel like this can't be the end. And we'll talk about it when we talk about the finale and the execution of the plan. But, like, in my head, like, I will not accept that this is the end. But I understand that the show ends in a way where you can, like, think that way if you wanted to, and then you can think another way if you wanted to as well.
But I just really think that a season six and, like, an aftermath to all of this would have really tied it in together and kind of brought us back. Because we were talking about how, like, we wish that if they would, like, circle back to, like, the essence of the. The show of, like, what they're doing.
Right. But it just doesn't really seem like helping. They're doing that anymore.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Or for the last, like, two. Two and a half seasons.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So. So let's see, where are we at my notes? We kind of deviated. How dare you.
Oh, yeah. Then that kind of. Going into what you're saying about, like, the mission, I. There's a lot of parallels to this episode, the next episode, with, like, angel and Epiphany, where he says, well, I guess I kind of worked it out. If there's no great, glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, and all that matters is what we do, because that's all there is, what we do. Now, today, I fought for so long for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to be the other guy. But I got. I never got it. I. All I want to do is help. I want to help because I don't think people should suffer as they do, because if there's no bigger meaning than the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world. And the thing is, is that you. You could say, like, the first, like, two thirds of that is exactly pretty much part of the plan of what angel decides to do, but it's missing the key thing, which is people shouldn't suffer. And there's no bigger meaning than the smallest act of kindness is gracing in the world. And, like, you and I talked about it, and, like, I guess I'm basically saying it now, but, like, what about all the innocent people that are going to die in this apocalypse that they're bringing onto the Earth? Like, they're speeding up. Are all these people that will, you know, probably be collateral damage in this?
[00:11:22] Speaker B: And who's going to help them?
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Who's going to help them if they're all dead? Because this is basically a suicide mission. But then also, like, this isn't a small act of kindness, and if that's the greatest thing in the world, then why are you choosing to do this?
Like, it just seems like there's a part and I know, I know, I know. I'm being nitpicky. Someone's going to. People are screaming at me right now. I can hear it in the future.
And I know.
I know that it's supposed to be like, the show was canceled. They had to throw things together. They also were wanting something big to go out on, and it's not going to be super big if angel just closes Wolverman Hart and says, all right, we're going to continue on and fight the good fight. Like, that's. That can be not as satisfying, but I feel like that would be thematically more consistent with the heart of the show than the plan that they come up with. At the end of this episode.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: So I will say one thing that does kind of save it for me is like just a slight spoiler. But the ending of the show is. It's a very open ending.
Yeah, it's extremely open.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Some people might disagree and say that it's like, kind of written in stone what happens, but I think it could go either way, though. Like, you could technically view it as. Yes, this is. This is a battle, not like the final battle. You know, that's how I choose to view it.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Otherwise I'll literally lose my mind that I just spent five seasons watching this show for this ending. Yeah.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I know. I'm kind of bummed that we can't talk about this episode, the next together, because there's a lot of stuff. But I don't. Maybe it'll be interesting to see. Maybe your. Our perspectives will completely change by the time we get to. Maybe the next one will be like, oh, okay, there was a little bit that I just didn't notice and like, I wasn't aware of and stuff. But yeah, what I do think is interesting, and I've talked about this, I think a couple episodes up till now is the writing staff had originally hoped that Sarah Michelle Geller would return as Buffy for this episode, but Geller was busy shooting the Grudge at the time. Writer David Fury says, we did think that Geller might be in the second last episode, just like angel appeared in the second last episode of Bubbies finale. We thought we'd do that, but wound up not. Statements were also made to the that Buffy appearing in the episode would have taken the focus too much away from Angel. I know. I've heard Joss Whedon say that he also kind of X nated as well because he felt like it would. It would be a Buffy and angel show and take away from angel and stuff, but it just seems like schedules and whatnot. But I. I do wonder how they would have fit her into the series. Like, what that would have looked like. Like, especially if they're trying to make it appear that angel is completely off his rocker and is evil now, how that would have worked out with him talking to Buffy. Maybe it similar to like, the glimpses we get with him and Nina where it's like, okay, this guy still has a heart, you know?
[00:14:08] Speaker B: But yeah, I think they could have definitely worked it in. In a way where I can't really talk about it without, like, spoiling the next episode, I feel like. But I'll just Say that, like, knowing that there is an ally out in the world that angel can rely on to have to be, like, a second front the way that he. He was to her in her finale. I think that would have changed the way that I personally would have seen the. The plan.
And I guess that's all I can really say. So I feel like with. If Buffy had come here, it would have opened up the doors to, like, use those characters and their resources.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: I know. I'm excited to talk about that.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Help out with something.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bring a really big sword.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: And obviously, like, it would be, like you said it would.
Like, who better than Buffy to bring in for angel to, like, tap back into his humanity and, like, why he is doing what he's doing in the first place? Like, she was the first person. She was his first mission. Right. Like, she was the person that put him on the path that he's on.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: And she's like his North Star. Like, she is the person that he models his, like, moral. More morality. Yeah. His morality after.
So it would have been interesting to see them interact in this timeline, I guess, where Angels.
Fucking crazy.
Yeah, crazy.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: He really. He really kind of is. And, yeah, there's a couple of things that happen in the next episode that you and I were talking about that could influence our perspective on how we view the finale and stuff. So I'm curious again to talk about that. But as of now, we're going to talk about this episode and what we feel about it. This is also, obviously a last appearance of Jenny Mullen's character, Nina Ash.
Apparently, if there had been a Season six, Oz would have returned to help her with her condition. That was the plan. But, I mean, who knows if Seth Green was even in talks for that and stuff. But that was at least what they wanted to do, according to IMDb. So.
All right, so we are in a secret chamber, and man's getting beaten up by a bunch of, like, robed men. He's got, like, a sack over his head, and there's, like, a roaring fire in the doorway. Angel comes around the corner on the other side of the doorway, jumps through the fire, hears the man, and then grabs him. As the attackers walk away, or kind of like back up, angel takes off the bag from the man's head, helps him to his feet, and we don't see his face. And then the man says, thank you. Thank you. And then angel turns into vamp face and then bites his throat. I think this is, like, one of the quickest cold opens we've had in a long time. It was very, very fast. But they just didn't waste any time.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Shocking.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: I mean. Yeah, but it's also kind of like, oh, they know Angels well.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: You would think if I'm watching this for the first time, I would probably assume that it's like a nightmare that Angels.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Could you. Could you imagine, though, I was thinking about this. Could you imagine if the show did end with angel being, like, evil and the gang had to take him out, and then it ended, like, with them going and fighting the good fight without him turning red?
I'm sorry. Forget I ever said it. Forgive me.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: I didn't. I didn't suffer through everything for that.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: No, but that would have been super gutsy. They're like, helping the helpless means. Helping the helpless means taking you out.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: I feel like that would have been really interesting if done right, obviously.
I just feel like that would have been a complete, like, lost the plot thing also.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: It would have been very, very demoralizing and sad and. Yeah, there's no way they couldn't. Because the entire. The entire point was that angel has to keep fighting. So if they take angel out, like, yeah, that. That would have been awful.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: But I just would undermine the entire concept of, like. Yes, he's.
He's a vampire. He's the first vampire with a soul.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: And he has, like, a conscience.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: I totally agree, but I was just. I had a thought as I was watching Sarah. I know I'm so evil. Especially because, like, as we're going through the shows, trying so hard to make you believe that he's evil and almost, like, thinking and wondering. Like, for those who watched the show, I mean, it's pretty odd. I feel like it's pretty awesome, obvious. Like, David Boreanas has, like, a specific tell when he's acting as angel, acting and pretending to be evil. Like, you could just. There's a lack of his sincerity behind his eyes that I don't fully ever buy into. And again, I don't know why they wrote the girl in question. I know they were trying to wrap up the Buffy thing, but I. I don't know that the girl in question was that important.
No, enough for them to.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: You can't take it seriously. It's not. The girl in question is not a valid statement on, like, Buffy.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
Maybe if they had taken out that episode and put in one more episode and slowly showed angel compromising and not made it so extreme, this would be a lot more believable and actually show angel, like, wrestling with it a little bit more. So, anyway, all right, we're in angel's apartment, says 19 hours earlier. He's lying naked in bed, staring in the ceiling, looking so bored. We have seen angel demoralized after sex. We've seen angel blissfully content after sex. But we've never seen angel just, like, could not care less associated. He's like, hey. And Nina's over here, like, panting and sweating. She's like, oh, where'd. Where'd you learn how to do that? And he was like, which part?
She's like, does it matter? How are you? And he's like, I'm good.
And then she's like, you're not perfectly happy, are you? I was like, oh, sweet child, girl. She doesn't know him well enough. Like, clearly, this is not the face of a man that is perfectly happy.
And then she's like, oh, I'm gonna get my wooden steak. And she opens the nightstand drawer and is like, oh, that's not a steak. And I'm like, what does angel have in his nightstand drawer?
[00:20:18] Speaker B: A dildo? A vibrator?
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Angel has a vibrator?
[00:20:23] Speaker B: It's possible it's for Spike.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: And then Angel's like, you're safe.
And then she's like, okay, and you. You're good. You weren't thinking about your little Roman friend or. And I was like, I do kind of feel bad for Nina right now. She's, like, feeling insecure. The sex was good, but, like, not good enough for him to lo. Soul. And, like, I don't know if I could do that knowing that he would always pine over. Like, could you imagine, you know, this guy will lose his soul over, like, that, like, amazing sex and, like, it's not amazing enough with you for him to lose, like, I don't know. There would always be that part of.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Me that's like, oh, okay. But I get the impression from this interaction that Nina is kind of aware that this is, like, a super casual thing and that they're not, like, together.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: That. Yes, but she definitely likes him a lot more than she does her. Like, they could have had him. Like, at least I know they're trying to say that he's distracted because of all the other things on his mind. But, like, throw. Throw her a bone, man. Like, she is a werewolf.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: And also, we haven't really seen her since smile time.
Right?
It's been a while.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: I. I honestly don't keep track of when she's here. When she's.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah, we haven't seen her since smile time.
And, like, we've only this is the third time we see Nina, I'm pretty sure. So it's like, this episode. I think they were trying to use her as, like, oh, you know, Angel. There's still a soft side to angel, and he cares about Nina and da, da, da. But I'm like, but I don't care because I don't know Nina like that. And we haven't, like, seen them develop any type of relationship. Like, if anything, this is just a casual situationship sort of thing where angel gets to have, like, no strings attached to sex.
And, like, the fact that she's asking him if he's thinking about her Roman, his Roman friend, and if he's perfectly happy, like, in bed is just.
Yikes.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the show is also trying to be like, guys, look. Character growth and development. Angel can have sex now, and it doesn't affect him. Like, he's moved past.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Like, you know, we have more important things to. To get caught up on. Like, this is just so irrelevant.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: It was all probably also their way of trying to tie in the events of the last episode as well into the this. So it's not so.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Floating out there, but too late.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Nina, girl, get up. Stand up. Nina.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: That's.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: Go find.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: That's not your man.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: And someone who loves you. Yeah, that's something. That's someone else's man.
Very much so, yes. The little Roman friends man.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: All right. For the streets at this point, not for anybody else. He is for the streets.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: This is Spikes man.
Like, at this point, if he's anybody's man, he spikes me.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: And he's like, spikes man.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Angel or a Spike being like, I would know. We have a connection. I was like, oh, do you get cramps, too? Just like the Slayers from the movie. Oh, my God. Like, cramps. Every time. Angel, like, you know, Buffy, I feel him inside. And Spike. That's how Spike feels.
[00:23:29] Speaker B: Of course he does, because he can't ever be original in any way, shape or form.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Talk about codependent relationship.
So then Nina's like, oh, the brow is back. If she's not on your mind. Then Angel's like, well, you know, there's a lot more than usual going on. She's like, work. He's like, always. And she's like, we should get away, you know, go skinny dip at night. Vacation. Go to Cabo. And he's like, I can't. Then she's like, all right. Too pushy, Too needy. I never even said that you should make love on the beach. All by yourself. And I gotta say, you guys all know I hate Nina. But I gotta say, she's a lot more charming like this than when she's trying to pout and feel bad for herself. Like right now I was like, oh, like I see a little bit of chemistry and like she actually is kind of cute. But like, too little too late, you know, so.
So Angel's like, there's things I've got to do, things I've already set into motion. I know I've spent years fighting to get somewhere, to accomplish something, and now that I'm close to it, I don't like what I see, what I am. So she says, you're a hero. And he goes, oh, that word.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: At least she didn't call him a champion.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Literally.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: That would have set me right over the edge.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Gotta fit in one last corruption and Moira, don't we? Nina says, you're my hero. Angel says, I may not always be. So then hilarious. Walking down the hallway and no one's looking at her. She passes, she gets all offended. Spike watches her and he's like, like you're not even there. World trembled before your feet once. Now patting around, place you don't want to be in. And the rabble don't even give you much as a polite yawn. O is like, do not presume I require any creature's attention. He's like, wouldn't dream of it. He starts drawing parallels between her and him, you know, talking about haunting the place, can't leave.
And he's like, believe me, I've been there. And I had a thought. In this moment, I was like, I bet you when Spike gets bored, or even when he was still a ghost. And when he was bored, he would go down and like talk at Pavane or mock him because he's like literally a captive audience. And just I. I just, I wish that, that would have been kind of funny if we'd seen like a little bit of it. Like, where's Spike? And he's down there and he's like, it's turned into like a soul bearing moment when Spike's just like talking.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: He's like, you know, he's like putting on plays.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: No one's ever really liked my poetry. Do you mind if I read you a poem? Actually, no, you don't mind because you can't say anything. And then he just like reads them and Pavane's over there like, I'm in hell. I am in hell.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: So one man show and the man is Spike.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: Exactly. And it's always been Spike. It's always been a one man show.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: So Illyria is like, I've grown wary of this world since my powers are depleted. All of this is meant to basically give us a catch up on where all the characters are at. To remind us that Illyria is close to mortal in like comparison to what she used to be and stuff. And then, and then she says, I've grown wary of this power.
Strange though, I've been made more human. This place remains disconcerting. Which is interesting because I wonder if as like even Illyria is possibly developing some sort of a conscience as she's talking about Wolfram and Hart and talking about how corrupt the place is.
Or maybe she's talking about like everybody's melancholy. I don't know. And then Spike's like, yeah, well, I'm afraid that never goes away. Anyhow, I thought Wesley was giving you a primer on all things human. And she says, he and I are no longer having intercourse. And Spikes like, yo.
Lyric like, he has cease communication with me. And Spikes. Oh, oh, okay. Communicate. Gotcha, gotcha. Verbal communication. And Illyria says that her looking like Fred in the Girl in Question disturbed Wesley. He won't even look at her. He won't even tell her why.
And then Spike says that that's the most devastating power that she has. Being able to look like Fred with Fred not being alive.
And then angel and Gun walk out of Angel's office into the lobby. Hamilton is escorting a businesswoman in. And then he introduces Senator Brucker, who is just like, horrible corrupt lady. She talks about how she went goes way back with Holland Manors when he was in charge. Gun. Sweet, sweet Gun keeps trying to assert his morality. He's like, things have changed. And then, then we find out that the senator's personal assistant is Ernesto, who's a vampire. The vampire asks for blood. He wants virgin and he wants it room temperature. And Harmony is like, okay, well, we have a no human blood policy.
And Hamilton's like, oh, well, I think we can make an exception. And Angel's like, yeah, Harmony, go to the lab and, you know, get something from the blood bank. And Gun just glares at Angel. Angel winks at Hamilton. And then Harmony's like, okay, but can I have like a little taste? He's like, no.
Okay, so question for you. I didn't angel drink human blood from a blood bank in season two of Buffy? Or is it implied that he was at the blood bank just to stop other vampires for getting the Blood. I can't remember.
Do you remember?
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Well, I think we.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: In the Dark Age, I think we.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: See in, like, season one, in the episode angel, he has, like, blood bags in his fridge. Like, when Darla goes in there. So we know that he was drinking, but maybe that's to, like, get his strength back. And then he switched to, like, pig's blood or something else. But I don't know. It's never really confirmed. I think he just.
I think he was just there maybe to, like, he went to find Buffy.
But I don't know if it's.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: I'm curious.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: Takes the blood.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Because, like, in the first few episodes of Buffy, they don't really, like, say, one way or the other. But it does seem like angel possibly is there because he also needs to grab some blood for himself. And that's how he's supposed to survive.
But then there's the whole thing that happens with him being, like, Connor's blood being spiked into his drink and how that starts to make him vamp into Angelus. And then later on, Spike can't have the. Any sort of human blood, or else it's kind of like the alcohol.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Well, also, in the. Like, I think. I'm pretty sure in the first episode of season two, Cordelia brings him blood and she says, like. Oh. Pause.
So I just. I feel like it's really inconsistent, to be honest. It's very bizarre. I'm not too sure.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And then here they're talking about how.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: I want to say that he does drink human blood.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Because, like, I would personally have.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: No, but not from the vein.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah. If someone drinks human blood, like, from a blood bank or other places like that, that would make sense. But. But drinking blood has been synonymous with relapsing and stuff. So it's just like. It's very. They haven't really ever clarified, but, yeah. I don't know. Yeah.
So angel takes them into his office, and Wesley comes in. He has a file folder, and he's like, hey, there's been another fatality in Funville. It's amusement park. And he's like, it's abandoned. Third victim in as many nights. Teeth marks strongly indicated. Borat's demon. And Illyria and Spike are walking up, and they're like, oh, you know, Spike's like, I can. I can do that.
And Wesley said the last victim was a teenage girl, a runaway. She was ripped apart. Angel is just ambivalent. He's like, well, there's not much we can do about that now, huh? He hands the file back And Wesley's like, angel, we need to find this demon. And Angel's like, somebody else dies. Yeah, yeah, I know, Wes. People are dying every day all over. This girl is just one more statistic. And Wesley was like, stacy. Her name was Stacy. And then he hands a printout to angel, and angel just looks at it and is like, well, you know, can't save everybody. We can't sweat the small stuff. Hands it back to Wesley, leaves Wesley's just, like, so confused.
And he's like, I'm sorry. I've got a United States senator waiting for me, so just find out whatever you can about the sports thing and we'll talk later. And then Spike is like, all right, Me and Olyria have nothing better to do. We can go after after him. It'll be fine. And Wesley's like, all right, fine. I'll be in my office. Call me if you learn anything. Illyria is completely hurt at the fact that Wesley, like, didn't even look at her glance in her direction. And then Spike and Illyria take off in Angel's office.
Angel gun. The senator and Ernesto are watching a video, and it's like, like, probably, like the most American, like, family values, war veteran.
Terrible.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: He's a criminal.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: This is horrible. As he's, like, hugging his wife and children, and they're playing Frisbee, and it's like, you know, just like the most, like, all American thing you can think of. And in. In a good way, in a pure way. And Ernesto's like, oh, and so is the senator. They're like, this guy came out of. Out of nowhere, and women voters are eating it up. And the senator's like, that's normally. Like. She says, I had a lock on the chick vote. And then she says, my numbers are slipping. I didn't claw my way up from hell and get installed in a human body just to have some pedophile steal my Senate seat. And God's like, hang on, wait. He's a pedophi? And senators, like, not yet, but the public better think that when you guys are through and guns like, pardon me.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: I was like, no, we're not doing that. I also just love the fact that this politician came straight out of hell. Like, it just makes so much sense. And I think in real life, all politicians do crawl out of the depths.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: That's what it's feeling like.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: This is the most realistic thing about this show at this point is this policy.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: The pipeline from reality TV star to. To politician, from hell to reality to politician, is probably thorough line.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. One million percent.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: And then the senator, like, is talking about how, you know, let's convince Conley that he is. Oh, we should get that Dr. Sparrow, the guy that brainwashes people, of course. Triggering Gun.
And then he's like, you know, well, that's not up ours. And then the. And then he says, I don't care what kind of services you were used to getting with this firm, but Holland Manners just doesn't live here anymore. We're not about to ruin a man's life and reputation. Just say you can. And then angel interrupts and says, we can do it. Gun's shocked. Angel ignores him and is like, I'm not sure how long reconditioning would take. And the senator is very pleased, says that Angel's made himself a very loyal ally. Gun's like, angel, we need to talk. And angel just goes, I'm with the senator now. Gun blows him off in Wesley's office. He's, you know, erratically speaking to yet another book about Borit's demon. And then as he's filtering through it, he. The left page, like, blanks out and shows a new, larger text that says, you're looking in the wrong place. And then all of a sudden, it all like, well, first then we see a symbol. It's a circle with eight spurs sticking out of it. And then it disappears when Gun walks in. And Gun's like, hey, we have a problem with angel. And. And then Wes is. Tries to show him the symbol, but then it's disappeared. And then we're at a racquetball court with the demon looking Lucifer guy from you're welcome. That angel promised to play racquetball with.
And angel looks so funny.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: He's wearing a Wolfram and Hart merch shirt and like a headband he's bought all in. And glasses, like goggles. What are. What even are those?
[00:34:26] Speaker A: This is probably actually David Boreanis's real life. He was like, hey, guys, can we actually play racquetball?
[00:34:32] Speaker B: He would wear that out in public. One million percent.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: I will say one of the strengths of this episode is the callbacks to many other characters we've seen throughout this season. Like, obviously this devil that he ran into with Cordy. And you're welcome. Then we have Sebastus later on and we have a few other people too. Like, it made for some nice continuity.
And they're talking about the.
Like, how the Fell Brethren are so pleased with angel helping with the nice ritual sacrifice that he gave. And Angel's talking about something about how Much longer do I have to wait for an answer? The guy's name is Izzy. He's like, these things take time. Trust me. Won't be long now. They go back to playing. Now we're at the Funville Amusement park, and Spike and Illyria are walking through, and they're talking about how, like, the corporate life has made angel lose his love for the Hunt. But Illyria is like, you know, I've seen this before with many rulers. He's been corrupted. And Spike's like, no, no, Angel's not my leader, first of all. And second of all, like, what do you mean by corrupted? And Illyria says, it always begins the same. A ruler turns a blind eye to the dealings of battles from which he cannot gain and a deaf ear to the counsel of those closest to him. As his strength increases, so does the separation between he and his followers. And then Spike hears and smells something, and. And then they continue walking. He says, you're wrong about Angel. Not that I don't think the sod could end up being a megalomaniac bastard. It's just that if he did, I'd know it. I'd feel it in my heart, in my bowels.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: I wonder if he means, like, you know, he would feel it if angel became. If angel lost his soul and became jealous.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: I do think that is more likely. Yeah, totally. He's seen so many iterations of Angel. I feel like Spike's pretty keyed into. Like, there's a trauma there.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: You know, They've known each other for, like, centuries, so.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: Exactly.
So Larry is like, you'll have proof soon enough. A corrupt ruler, you know, he's gonna eventually, you know, turn against his friends.
And then she says, he cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them. And spikes like, yes, I don't have to worry about that, because angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one. And then Valeria interrupts him again, and everyone's like, no, tell.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: Tell us more.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Hilarious. Says, mark me, he will murder one of you. And then Dragon appears out of nowhere, and he's like, actually, he already has. And he's, like, bleeding. And Spike's like, oh, Illyria, this is your keeper of your graveyard. Keeper of the graveyard, this is Illyria, the person that you are, you know, supposed to watch and that you didn't.
And then the Borat's demon comes, and then they start fighting, and then Illyria ends up kicking the demon away, and it kills it. And then Drogan is like, I came to find you. He says, I can Find anyone who's visited the well.
And then he says that it was angel who did that to him. And then we are like, dun, dun.
And then back at Wolfram and Hart, Wesley is walking through the lobby towards Angel's office, stops at Harmony's desk, grabs, like, the sign in book, and then draws the symbol. And Harmony sees him, and she's like, that would look great on a cast. And he's like, what? She's like, thinking of getting a tattoo, right? Put a little more bad in your bad boy bank.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: But that's so funny because that symbol is totally a tattoo that somebody would get, like a champ stamp in the year 2004.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: It really, really is. I've seen guys, like, I could see them put it on, like, their shoulder, like, where they would put, like, a sun or something.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: But I also have seen this on people's calves before.
[00:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, 1 million percent.
[00:38:06] Speaker A: But everyone is so mean to her. Like, she's trying to be supportive, and he just, like, rolls his eyes and walks away. But also, I mean, Wesley does not walk amongst us anymore. He is transitioned to a higher plane of existence at this point.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Sorry.
I will say this episode was nice because it felt like the boys were, like, working together again. Like, him and Gun and like, Lauren and even I. I said this in the discord and people fell off their chairs. But Spike is, like, so freaking likable. He's probably the most likable character on the show at this point.
He's just like. He's just. He doesn't have the same baggage that the other people have. Right. So he's there to just be, like, a little light in the fucking darkness. Which is crazy to say because this is Spike that we're talking about.
But I love.
I love Spike, like, right now.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's something that I definitely clock, too. He's not as beat down by life as everybody else is. And I think a lot of that is because Spike's always been the kind of out of sight, out of mind guy. He doesn't let his past sins weigh him down, which has been a problem for him. Right. But once he's dealt with it and worked through it, he is a. And he can move on in a healthier way. And it actually leads him to be in a healthier headspace than, like, angel and other people. But I think also, too, he's not as far in his redemptive journey as everybody else is or as far in the, like, fighting for the mission. So he hasn't been as Beat down as everyone else.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: And, well, I think that all of them came to Wolfram and Hart because it was, like, I guess, an opportunity to continue their mission. But also, like, we know angel did it because he needed to save Connor. Like, he didn't really have a choice in the matter.
And they know what Wolfram and Hart is all about. They've had to deal with them for several years. Like, they. They came in knowing that they were in the beast of the. Or the belly of the beast. Sorry, Spike. I feel like he came in. He was a ghost. And then he stopped being a ghost. He had that big revelation and damage. And then he chose to stay there because he believed in, like, what angel was trying to do in Wolfram and Hart. Like, he had the benefit of knowing what angel was doing before. And, like, the others didn't. Like, they were kind of figuring it out as they were going.
But Spike has always had that, like, one foot out the door sort of thing where he's kind of removed from all the drama of the previous year. All the drama of Wolfram and Hart in general.
So the reason that he's there is because he's choosing to be there to help. He's not there for any other reason.
And I think that's why, you know, it. It kind of works. Like, he's not, as I would say, like, hopeless as the other ones.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: He also.
He didn't have to sell out to be a part of Wolfram and Hart. He also hasn't had to compromise any part of himself. And so he's not weighed down by that guilt that everybody else is. He also is the most free to just walk away if he really wants to. Like, the biggest reason why he's here right now is to help Fred's death.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Honor.
Yeah.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Which is probably a more noble reason than what a lot of the other people were doing when they originally signed on for. Although, like, obviously they did want to do it for good reasons too. But, yeah, I do find it. It's. It's interesting in how that ties into. You and I were talking about how it ties into the final scene where, like, the reasoning, which we'll talk about when we get to it. But, yeah, I agree. I. I found.
I'm actually to the point where I'm like, I think Spike might be in a healthier headspace than most everybody else right now.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Oh, for sure.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Which is just, like, crazy. How in the world did we get here in one season?
[00:41:51] Speaker B: But, yeah, I just feel like for Spike, it isn't personal. In the same way that it is for everyone else. It's personal in that he's finally doing something because he thinks it's the right thing to do. And he believes in what Angel's trying to do. But he was never personally targeted in the same way by Wolfram and Hart. He was brought back by Lindsay. You know, like, it wasn't even Wolfman Hart that did that to him. So, yeah.
[00:42:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
So then Wesley walks into Angel's office carrying his drawing. And he's like, hey, angel, something unusual came across my. And then he sees angel sitting at his desk talking to Hamilton. And then he. Wesley starts to ask if Hamilton can leave so they can talk. And Angel's like, actually, Wes were kind of in the middle of something. Why don't you try me later?
Wes is like, okay. And Angel's like, hey, shut the door on your way out.
Wesley leaves, and then he runs into Lauren heading towards Angel's office. And Lauren's like, hey. Like, is angel in there? And he's like, what's the weather report? And Wesley's like, cold. I see, actually. And Lauren's like, well, he cut six of my clients loose. Didn't even tell me. I spent all day talking them off ledges and out of pill bottles. And Wesley's like, I think that suicidal celebrities are beneath Angel's concern.
Lauren is like, these are very pretty people I'm talking about here, Wes. Four of them getting in shape for young guns. 3.
Wesley. Or a gun Comes out of Wesley's. Or gun. Sorry, gun. Is waiting in Wesley's office. They make their way to Wesley's office. He's like, well, what did he say? And now we have Wesley, gun and Lauren all talking in Wesley's office. And Wesley's like, he said nothing. He has Hamilton in his office. They're discussing business strategies. Lauren's like. It's like angel suddenly started chanting Leona hems. Honestly. Wesley's like, he's not himself. Gun's like, what's happening to him? The telephone rings. It's Spike. And now we're in Spike's basement. And we have Drag in there. Spike, Wesley, Gunn and Lauren, as well as Illyria and Dragan is filling the three guys in on the situation.
Says that it was part of a clan of demon assassins. They fell upon me last night. The poison from his four blades wearing heavy on my limbs. And then he says that he tortured this assassin for several hours until he confessed who had sent him and that it was Angel. He said angel was afraid I'd find Something in the deeper well, something that would uncover the truth about his involvement.
And apparently, angel was the one who helped Elyria escape from her tomb. And Wesley's like, I thought the release of her sarcophagus from the deeper well was predestined. And Drogon's like, well, I thought that, too, but now I believe that Illyria's resurrection may have been planned. And I'm curious, like. Like, why Illyria herself? Like, wouldn't she have known that she was predestined? Or wouldn't she have predestined herself? Like, I'm just curious why she's over there. Like, oh, wow. Have no clue, you know, what's going on, But I feel like it's kind of a problem.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: Thanks.
I feel like, yeah, guys, I put.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: That into motion because she talked about everything being predestined, too. So.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah, anyway, maybe because she doesn't have, like, all her powers anymore, so she doesn't have that knowledge. I don't know.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: She didn't say a single word. And I was, like, waiting for her to chime in and be like, no, actually, I know the guy who predestined it, and he was pretty clear or whatever. But, yeah, whatever. We won't look at it too closely. So Lauren's like, oh, that doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would angel want to spring an Old One? Drogon's like, I don't think that was the point. He goes, before he died, the assassin said something about a sacrifice someone trusted and dear. Which, of course, we're all starting to think, oh, this is close to what Illyria said. And then Wesley's like, are you saying that angel was responsible for what happened to Fred? And Drogan's like, well, he may not have chosen her specifically. And Lauren's like, hang on. Let's not talk about bad things about my friends.
And then Drogan's like, do you think I gained pleasure in this? I held angel and ally a brother. Wesley's still, like, you think he might have murdered Fred? Drogan's like, I know this is difficult for you, but angel was involved. The assassination. Assassin was clear.
Gun's like, well, what if the assassin was lying? Drogon's like, no one. No one lies. With their the mercy of my wrath, we get another confirmation that Drogan cannot lie himself. He has to tell the truth. And then Spike's like, okay, well, or Wesley pulls out the paper and is like, hey, do you know what the symbol is? Drogan doesn't know everybody else Takes a look at it as well. And then Wesley's like, hey, somebody is dropping clues.
And Lauren's like, I can't wrap my head around the notion that angel have anything to do with Fred or any of this. And then they all start talking about how Angel's been doing a bunch of things that are out of character lately and trying to wonder why it's happening now. What, like, why the change? And then Illyria finally pipes in and goes. He's preparing to make his move. And Wesley's like, all right, well, we gotta talk to angel about this. And they put Drogan underneath Illyria's guard. As the rest of them go. I like how Spike's like, I'm not missing the fireworks. He's like, hey, Illyria, you don't care about any of this nonsense, do you? He's like, nose goes, not it.
And so then they leave and Spikes like, all right, cool. Like, you know, help yourself. There's beer in the fridge. He's like, you know, hands are the game controller. Feel free to play a little Crash Bandicoot. Give you lots.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: I love Crash Bandicoot. What a great game.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: It is pretty fun, but I'm just like Illyria and Drogan trying to figure out. I'm surprised they even turned it on. Figured it out.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: You know what? I'm glad they did. Everybody needs to some Crash Bandicoot in their life.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: So funny. I'm glad we got, like, a little clip of them both sitting there, like, staring at. Yeah. Oh, I think I figured out what we're supposed to do.
[00:47:14] Speaker B: And then she's like, this game makes me angry, but I can't stop. I'm like, yeah, girl, that's. That's the pipeline of Crash Bandicoot.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: So true. Rage quitting. And then being like, I have to do it again.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: It's addiction.
[00:47:27] Speaker A: So then now in the lobby, Angels standing at Harmony's desk reviewing a contract.
He tells her to send a bunch of stuff in. And then Wesley walks up to angel with Lauren, Gunn and Spike. And they're like, we need to talk to you right now.
And so they all head into Angel's office and confront him. And they're like, hey, Drogan's in town. And they're like, somebody tried to have him killed. Know anything about that? Angel's like, of course not. Where is he?
[00:47:52] Speaker B: He looks highly suspicious.
[00:47:54] Speaker A: He's safe. They're like, we're not telling you where he is. Angel's like, good. Now, can we get back to business, or was there something else? And Then Wesley's like, business. What business are we in, Angel? And angel says, do I really have to explain this to you people? We're in the business of business. Oil, software, Worldwide Wickets. The product doesn't matter. It's the game that matters. Get to the top, be the best, have the most, win. Wesley's like, win what? Angel says, you're still missing the point. And Gun goes, that angel talking? Because it sounds a lot more like Angelus. And then angel goes, oh, if I were Angelus, half of you would already be dead just for the fun of it.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
Hang on. One of us is already dead. Are we having fun yet? Like, Spike's about ready to throw down. And angel says, you want to know the truth? The truth is, there's only one of us who's ever understood how things really work. Lauren. Lauren's like, whoa, hang on. Can I not be the poster child for your nervous breakdown here? But he points out Lauren because Lauren advocated for life being in the gray and not so black and white. That's not quite what angel means right here. But the. It's intentionally supposed to be a callback to season two and all of that. Angel says, you didn't judge. You didn't spend your life obsessed with good and evil. You do that, you get swallowed, lost in the minutiae. Good, bad, angel and jealous. None of it makes a difference. I wish it did, but, you know, an aunt with the best of intentions or the most diabolical schemes is just exactly an ant. There is one thing in this business, in this apocalypse that we call a world that matters.
Power. Power tips the scale. Power sets the course. And until I have real power, global power, I have nothing. I accomplish nothing. And Wesley's like, and how you get this power. And angel says, isn't pretty, isn't fun. He says, you think it's Wolfram and Hart getting me here? Maybe you're right, because they've shown us what power is. From day one, they've been calling the shots, and all we've done is get shot at. I have a chance to change that. And then Lauren says, and will you? I mean, not to play an old saw, but power does traditionally corrupt. You get high up enough, and, well, the people, they do start to look like ants. And this is so interesting, because everything angel is saying, he's technically kind of not lying. Like, there's actually a lot of truth to what he's saying in the sense of how he's. He's, like, laying out his plan, essentially, yeah. He does kill Drogan so that he can get into the circle of the Blackthorn. He does try to achieve power so that he can take down the bad people to destroy it. And so, like, even like him, it's just. It's so hard. It's like, I. I. How aware is the show and the writers that they are having? Angel actually kind of accomplish very similar things, both as evil, both if you were truly, truly evil. And even as a supposedly moral person, like, even him, his plan to, like, make one last big strike is not thinking about the little person, the little ants.
And so in doing that, he's looking a lot like this person that he's laying out right here from an evil perspective, you know, so it's just interesting.
And then angel says he can't worry about that. The small stuff again, like, helping the helpless keeps you connected, keeps people from looking like ants, like food and generally not people. Which this is all a callback to Doyle. And then Harmony comes in, is an important phone call about that guy, about that thing. Angel says, we're done here. I have to take that. He walks out. And then Wesley goes, the small stuff that you can't worry about. Would that include Fred? And angel goes, I loved Fred. And Wesley's like, that's not an answer. Angel says, then I guess you don't get one. And shuts the door and just, like, shuts them all out.
Ooh, cold, cold, cold. So now we're in an interrogation room somewhere in Wolfram and Hart. Wesley and Lauren are in there. And Wesley's like, okay, there's got to be, like, a reason behind all of this. Lauren's like, what do you want me to say? Tell you that angel love Fred, and then in eon of eons, he would never harm her in any way? I wish I could, Wes. But if he believes what he's saying, and I believe he does. And Wesley's like, it never made sense. Angel never cared about power. Lauren's like, well, he's never had power before, even when he was Angelus. Then Lindsay shows up. I forgot all about this guy, to be honest. I was like, oh, yeah, Lindsay's back. And Lindsay's like, aw, you guys look like you could use a hug.
He's all, like, shackled and everything.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Where has he been?
[00:52:06] Speaker A: I. I don't know. Have they had him just, like, locked up somewhere in Wolfram and Hart, like, next to Bavane or something?
Also, where's Eve? Have they had Eve locked up with Lindsay?
[00:52:18] Speaker B: She definitely did not want to leave Lindsay.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: Like, ever since underneath, we haven't heard either of them.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Weird.
[00:52:27] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: All right, so now we're like, the Academy of Arts and Design in Southern California. Nina's walking out of the building, and Angel's surprising her. And he hands her tickets, and she's excited, thinking they're going to go on a vacation. Then she sees that there's three tickets and sees the names on it and realizes that it's for her, her sister and her niece. And then Angel's like, I need you to be out of here. And she's like, hang on. You just sleep with a guy and he sends your entire family out of the country? She's like. Like, wait, what's going on? You could have just, like, called. He says, it's not safe here. She says she wants to be with him even if there's trouble. He says, you don't want to be with me. You don't want to be near me. And he's like, because I'm the thing that'll hurt you.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: And then she's like, what are you, so annoying?
[00:53:09] Speaker A: What do you call this? And he's like, how can I convince you that I want to be with you?
[00:53:14] Speaker B: Maybe say it like, you mean. Can't even a single letter.
[00:53:21] Speaker A: I just.
[00:53:22] Speaker B: Yeah. All of these scenes with Nina just, like. I just don't really. I get what they're trying to do with them, but at the same time, I'm just like, this is really cringy, and why are we wasting time? Like, I. I just don't know.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe just to prove to us that he still has a soul, still has a heart.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: A heart. I mean, he's sending her and her sister and niece away, but what about all the other people in Los Angeles?
[00:53:47] Speaker A: Exactly. That's the thing. That's the thing. What about Ann? What about her shelter? What about all this stuff? Like, that's the part that I just can't get over with this plan is this complete lack for the little guy, which has always been what angel has focused on. So, like, that. It just doesn't make sense to me again.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just. It just seems like all very selfishly motivated.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
All right, so then she.
He says he'll. He promises that he'll come for her when this is all done. They'll have time. She's like, you're the crappiest liar.
And then she says, I'll go. Why on earth would I stay? She grabs her stuff and takes off, girl.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: Bye. See you later.
[00:54:28] Speaker A: Back in Spike's basement.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: I know.
[00:54:30] Speaker A: We just don't care. Back in spice basement, Illyria and Drogan are playing video games. They're like, oh, this is amazing. They're, like, all addicted now and everything. They're, like, trying to figure out, like, the point of the game. And then Hamilton busts in, and apparently him and Dragon know each other. They, like, go way back or whatever.
[00:54:46] Speaker B: Way back.
[00:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So he's like. He threatens Drogan and is like, basically, you're never going to return back to your tree or in your cave. And then he ends up throwing Drogon into the wall and then just completely wallops Illyrio. It was kind of hard to watch. It was. It was really hard to watch. He just manhandles her completely and then barely uses any effort, says, I got to tell you, I'm a little disappointed.
Punches her again and again, and then just says, you know, that she's not that cool. And then, you know, steps on her. It's horrible. And then back in the interrogation room, Lindsay's surrounded by spike gun Lauren, Wesley, and tells them that he knows about the Circle of Thorn and that he doesn't know why angel has given up the kid or anything, but that the Circle of Thorn, there's no way that they would take angel, that they're very, very, very exclusive. It's a secret society.
And we find out that Lauren. Or not Lauren, sorry, Lindsay, Actually, his plan was to come back and sacrifice Angels so that he could get into the Circle of Thorn. Which that makes no sense because Lindsay knows that the Circle of Thorn works for the.
Not the powers to be the. The senior partners, and they want angel alive for the apocalypse. So, like, wouldn't that have made Lindsay them angry debtor? Yeah, like, they would have killed Lindsay. Like, it doesn't make sense, but whatever.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: I think he's just talking out of his butt.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: He probably is. He talks about how power is the point, not evil.
He says that, you know, these people are the ones that grease the wheels to get the apocalypse and the parts and stuff all in place to keep. Make sure that man's inhumanity to man keeps rolling along. This is everything that Holland Manor said, basically keeping hell on Earth so that we can trek straight towards the apocalypse. He says the senior partners are in a different plane down here. It's the players in the circle that make things happen. You get tapped by one of them, it's like getting the keys to the chocolate factory.
Then he says to be a Blackthorn is to be the senior partner's instrument on earth. Doesn't get bigger than that. Not Angel. Basically trying to do the same plan as Lindsay. So funny.
Lindsay's like, angel doesn't have it in him. He's like, in order to. To. To become a member of the Blackthorn, he's got to give up the champion angle, quit saving girls and alleys. Probably wouldn't even make it on the Circle's radar unless he killed one of his lieutenants.
And then the guys all look at each other and like, crap. Check, check and check. And then they're like, the senior partners of Circle. They're killing angel by degrees. And Wesley's like, and we watched it all happen. Guns. Like, the guy I knew wouldn't want this. Wouldn't want to be this. And Wesley's like, angel dedicated his life to helping others, not because he had to, but because it was a path he'd chosen. If he's been swayed from that influence, then maybe there's still time. We can bring him back. And then Lauren goes, and what if he skipped too far down that evil brick road? I love that. Callback to Pilea. So then we cut to the secret chamber again. This is like a callback to the cold open. Angel walks through the dark hallway. He grabs the man that's being beaten. We find out that it's Drogan and then bites him and then ends up snapping his neck. And we're like, oh, snap. He actually did it. And at this point, the audience is supposed to be really confused what's happening. And then the lights come up, and then we see all the, like, robed people, like, unmasking, and it's all the different members or all the different people. We've seen, like, the senator, and then, like, that demon guy that he played racquetball with and Sebastis and yada, yada, all these guys, and they're, like, all, like, politely golf clapping. They pull out wine glasses.
It's Sivus. Veil is there. And they're like, well done, Angel. They give him, like, a little tattoo branding over his heart. And they're like, well, wow, you're really special, because everyone is here. Like, this is literally everyone. So then we have angel looking around and marking everyone, and it's just so obvious that Angel's clearly gonna take them all down. Like, yeah, it's very, very obvious.
[00:58:40] Speaker B: It looks very uneasy being there.
[00:58:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Cybus Veil comes in and is like, you've been looking for me? Angel's like, well, I've been Looking like, I'm looking for you. You know, appearances and stuff. And Vale's like, no hard feelings. Angel's like, ultimately, everything worked out for the best. And Vale says, oh, your son, he kills quite well. And angel, you could tell, just does not like that at all.
So then now we're in the lobby. Angel's walking off the elevator, walking to his office, like, rubbing the spot above his chest where the brand was. And then as he closes his door, Gun and Spike catch him off, off guard. Everyone just starts fighting. Wesley and Lauren walk out of the conference room. They're surrounding Angel. Gun has a sword, Spike has his fists. Wesley is a shotgun, and Lauren has a crossbow. They're like, you might want to stay down. And then Gun says, we know what you've been doing. Giving up the baby, working for the senator, trying to take out Drogan, and for what? To get in bed with a circle of the black Thorn? Angels, like, so you figured it out.
And then Lauren's like, yeah, a little singing from a jailbird we know and loathe Lindsay.
And just like you believed him, Spike's like, doesn't have a reason to lie. Unlike you. Angel says, what I do here is my business, yada, yada. So then they're all, like, all fighting and stuff. And then all of a sudden, angel grabs Wesley's shotgun barrel, pulls it away, kicks Wesley to the ground and punches Spike, takes out Gun and then grabs Lauren. Well, Lawrence ends up shooting with the crossbow first. I was like, oh, Lauren. It always just makes me so sad whenever I see him using violence and, like, who's this friend? Then angel ends up grabbing Lauren around the neck, holds him hostage, and then he tells him to pull the arrow out of his. His chest, and then pulls a crystal out of his pocket, says, involvere. And then the in, like, crystal glows, and there's a force through the entire room. And then he lets go of Lauren and says, all right, we have six minutes. And this is really cool because there is actually six minutes left in the episode, realize. Yeah. So it literally the amount of time that he takes to explain all of this, there's a little bit of time left. Like, it's six minutes if you count the credits and stuff. But, yeah, it's pretty fun. So that angel tells them that he has put up a glamour and that everyone outside of the room can see that they're at each other's throats. And he says that everything that they know, everything they heard, is a lie. He says, I'm the one who told it Says that he sent the message to Wesley in the book. Book and the assassin to kill Drogon that he knew. He goes, I knew Drogan could handle himself. And I'm like, okay, but you killed him. But Drogan died, so clearly. Yeah. Like, was. Was.
Was Drogan in on this? That's, like, the one thing that I'm like. I wish. I think the thank you maybe was supposed to be like, Drogan. I don't know. I'm not sure.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: But acknowledging.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: I don't know, the part is a little dirty. Anyway, so angel set all of this stuff up. He says that he wanted them to believe that he killed Fred because they. The Circle of Thorn, needed to believe it as well.
And so then he says, they need to believe my own people didn't trust me anymore. They needed to believe a person as good and pure as Drogan considered me an enemy. It was the only way to gain their confidence. And Lord's, like, rubbing his sore neck.
He's like, oh, so this whole evil angel thing has been a big. Scamola. I smell Oscar.
World's Best actor.
Spike says, when did all this start? Angel says, two months ago with a kiss. And then we get a flashback to your welcome with Cordelia giving a kiss to Angel. And he says, though it didn't hit me till later that night. Okay, I know you have thoughts about this.
Explain this to me. Why. Why did Angels. Why did nothing that angel has done change after that kiss that supposedly changed everything? Why was the next episode literally him just continuing to be demoralized, even though he, like, apparently, like, was supposedly on the set, on the path after that?
[01:02:31] Speaker B: I.
I genuinely have no idea. I think, like, logistically speaking, like, knowing that they were going to get canceled, I think this is a way for them to honor Cordelia and Fred. And I think he gets the vision from Cordelia. He sees these things. He's not really sure what it means.
And then Fred dies. And I think that kind of lights a fire under his ass. Like, I think Fred's death was the catalyst to Angel's plan being put into motion.
[01:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what he says.
[01:03:02] Speaker B: And I think he. When Fred died, he kind of referred back to that vision and was like, okay, what can I do with this? I don't really know what he says. She put him back on the path. I don't know if he's referring to, like, having a vision again and being on the path of the Powers that Be, because I don't think the Powers that Be want this. Like, I don't know.
[01:03:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: It's all just very vague. But I think the intention behind it is obviously to, like, honor Cordelia and Fred because they've died and, like, to kind of tie them into the finale. But, yeah, this part always just.
I wish there was, like, we knew more. Right. But I don't think.
[01:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's odd as that was the full intention. So they had to kind of put that in last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:03:49] Speaker B: Like. Like, what path did she put him on? The path to knowing who. Like, the Powers.
The people who are the most powerful at Wolverman Hart. Like, is that the path that she put him on? Did she intend for him to do this, or was this his plan?
Because, again, this plan is, like, super sketchy.
I feel like the Powers that he would be.
[01:04:14] Speaker A: This is a sketchy plan.
[01:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I just don't see the Powers that Be being on board. But also, the Powers that Be are also really sketchy. So it could be that this was what they intended the entire time.
I don't know.
[01:04:29] Speaker A: All right. I don't know.
[01:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know either. I think in. It's really hard. Like, obviously, both of us knew. So when we're. We were watching each episode, I was kind of looking for hints that angel knew. And it just. It's very hard, in retrospect, to be kind of like, I. I didn't see much change in his behavior and everything. But again, no, it's just a product of them being canceled and everything.
[01:04:51] Speaker B: I think probably what was the shells. I think probably shells is when angel, when they found out that, like, they couldn't absolutely not save Fred. I think at that point, everybody just kind of broke. Like, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. And I think at that point, angel was just like, we've lost everything.
Like, what else do we have to lose? Let me see. Let me look into this and see what it is. I don't know, because he does say that, like, the vision doesn't actually show that. Show him their faces. So he had to somehow get in to find out who they were. Which ties into the scene right before this.
[01:05:28] Speaker A: So, yeah.
Know. Yeah. I don't know.
[01:05:34] Speaker B: Terrible plan.
[01:05:35] Speaker A: It really is. I know. It's.
It's so hard. All right, so Angel's like, we're weak. The powerful control everything except our will to choose. Look, Lindsay's a pathetic half whip, but he was right about one thing. Heroes don't accept the way the world is. The senior partners may be eternal, but we can make their existence painful. He's like, I want to take them on. We're in a machine. The Blackthorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment. Spike's like, hell, yeah. About time we get our hands dirty. Angel's like, this isn't a keep fighting the good fight kind of deal. Let's be clear. I'm talking about killing every single member of the Blackthorn. We don't walk away from that again. The nod to Doyle when he looks at angel and says, the good fight. Lauren says, do we crawl away at least? And Angel's like, we do this, the senior partners will reign their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full on hell, not the basic fire and brimstone kind. We're used to guns. Like, we know the drill. Angels like, no, you don't. Like, basically, this is a suicide mission. Like, power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright shining moment, we can show them they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves that that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote as a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do. Think about what I'm asking you to give.
Yeah, it's just. I just. It's stupid.
[01:06:45] Speaker B: It lost me. I was like, okay, yeah, okay, I see what you're saying. And then he lost me when he said for one bright shining moment. Because I feel like that's never been the point. That has never been the point. And, like, I just. I don't know. I just.
I don't know.
[01:07:06] Speaker A: I know. And I know we're gonna ruffle a lot of feathers and stuff, and that's not to say that I don't necessarily like the ending, but I. I do. I. I wrestle more with the reasoning why. Yeah, to do.
[01:07:16] Speaker B: I will say I prefer Not Fade Away over chosen as an episode. I think it's like this episode. Power Play and Not Fade Away are like excellent episodes to end a series.
And I like how it ends. I can understand it in a certain way where the fact that now he knows who the bad guys with the power are, he has an obligation to take them down. Because if he has this information and he doesn't do anything about it, I would say that that would also be unethical because he knows that these people are causing harm and will continue to Cause harm. So, like, I understand the train of thought where it's like, okay, I know who they are, so that means I have to. To take them down.
But I wonder if, like.
And I wonder if we'll find this out of the next episode. But I wonder if he knows, like, the level of consequence that he's about to bring on himself and the world.
I think it's like, you have to kind of weigh it. Like, did he weigh the consequences versus, like, the actions in this case? Like, is it worth it in the end to do this?
Yeah, it could be. Like, there's positive. There is a reason that he's doing this because, like, I said, it would be unethical not to. But is it more unethical to do it and take the consequences of, like, the senior partners raining hell down on Earth versus taking out a group of people who are super powerful?
Was there maybe another way? I don't know.
[01:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And all this talk about power, it's like, there's going to be a power vacuum when you are gone.
Like, there's going to be people because there's no heroes. So there's going to be. This is your city. Like, at least have a backup plan and someone that you're going to pass the baton to. And that's something that I really struggle with this moment. Like, in this. In this moment, like, as soon as Spike says, you know, like, I'm in, and, like, raises his hand and stuff, we have Doyle's theme that plays. And there's supposed to be a direct parallel to this idea of passing the baton, of, like, a person sacrificing themselves so that the mission can continue, be fought by someone else. For Doyle, he did it because he knew that he believed in Angel. Cordelia did it because she believed in Angel. And so it's like, but if angel dies, who's left?
[01:09:30] Speaker B: Who's left? Yeah.
Who helps clean up the mess?
[01:09:35] Speaker A: And that's the thing. It's like, who helps the helpless? Who's left for these people? And I. And that's why I think, like, you and I had talked about, like, how if Buffy had come in, I think that would have helped a lot with the transition of, like, angel can go. I can do this. Or knowing.
Or Connor. Yeah, or Connor or Anne or all these other people and stuff, which is why maybe next episode will kind of change some things. But, like, yeah, if we know that all these people are doing the good thing. But then it's like, the whole aspect of, like, But Anne can't fight demons and if there's an actual apocalypse, like, what's Ann gonna do in her shelter? You know, like, there's just a lot of. And then Connor's not quite equipped. Like, we saw him kind of struggle that earlier. And, like, I. It's just if I wish that extra episode, like, maybe the girl in question could have been a great one with having somebody for angel to kind of set up as the next Batman for. For la, you know? And I don't know. It's just. It's hard because I think thematically, the show has always been about, like, the smallest act of kindness. And I. I told you, I. I know it's maybe not as, like, cathartic or as flashy, but I. I really wish that they would have ended the series with having angel walk away from Wolfram and Heart and going back and opening up Angel Investigations on a small scale. And it literally. The series ending with, let's go to work and let's go back and, like, do the thing we've been doing this entire time. And, like, we're going back to our roots, essentially. And I feel like that would be thematically the same as what they're doing here. Like, isn't it?
He talks about free will, and they can't take that away from us. And it's like. But isn't just dying? Like, isn't that a cop out? Like, we've been talking about, like, living and fighting is the harder thing to do. So isn't continuing to express your free will and living in the morally gray more of an act of free will than just being like, well, we're just gonna die because, you know, f the Wolfram and Hart people.
[01:11:33] Speaker B: F the system.
I think this is also. I mean, you could also look at it from the perspective of, like, angel was a puppet to the Powers that Be. Because then the whole thing with Jasmine, that was probably really discouraging. And it's like, well, the Powers that Be can't be trusted because they don't give a shit about us. And, like, one of them became really corrupt and destroyed everyone's lives for an entire year. So he probably has lost hope in that.
And then now he's a puppet to the senior partners and to Wolfram and Hart.
So I feel like angel feels like he's kind of trapped. And the only way out is to, like, almost rebel against everything.
So he's, like, rebelling against his mission from the Powers that Be.
[01:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:12:16] Speaker B: Where he's supposed to be helping the helpless, which I respect. Helping the small people. And he's also going against the senior partners in Wolfram and Hart who have like, had a chokehold on him for the last season.
So, like, I get it from that perspective, but I always, like, I always expect the heroes to like, rise above that way of thinking where it's like, okay, we have to put the world above ourselves. But it doesn't seem like angel and his team are putting the world above themselves. It seems like they're putting their situation and trying to get out of it above, like the well being of everybody else. Yeah, I don't know.
[01:12:55] Speaker A: And that's the hard part because, like, we're just speaking from Angel's perspective. But like, every single person is so demoralized to the point where with the exception of maybe Lauren. Lauren and Spike obviously are the two exceptions. But for Wesley and Gun, it really, like the idea of it being a suicide mission seems to kind of be the thing that's the most attractive for them because both of them hate themselves and both of them carry so much guilt and stuff. And so. And that's what, you know, you and I were talking about earlier, is that Spike, in a lot of ways feels like the healthiest individual because he's not doing this for anything other than the fact that this is just very Spike. He likes to get in there and gets his hands dirty. He's like, finally we can, like there's.
[01:13:35] Speaker B: Some bad guys that need to be taken out and he's in to do it.
[01:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, right. And I do think, like, this is also a big growth moment for Spike because Spike didn't want to die earlier on this season. And here he is being willing to sacrifice himself, knowing he's going to go to hell.
Like, I do think that Spike possibly is the noblest person here right now, which I cannot believe I'm saying.
[01:13:59] Speaker B: I know. I can't believe I'm saying that either. It's. It's a beautiful moment, though. He's the first one to raise his hand. He does it without question. And he's. He's in. He's in it fully.
[01:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Symbolically, it means.
[01:14:12] Speaker B: I respect that.
[01:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. I do think, like, I love the way Alexis Denisoft plays this moment because the clarity on Wesley's face for the first, first time, like he's just been in a fog for episodes.
[01:14:22] Speaker B: He's like, damn, this is my way out.
[01:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:26] Speaker B: Of Earth.
[01:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:28] Speaker B: Of life. Like, oh my God.
[01:14:31] Speaker A: Yep.
Yeah. So as one by one, they all raise their hands. Lauren's the last one. And then we zoom out past the glamour to show what those on the outside world can see. And it's everybody, like, at Angel's neck with angel still holding Lauren hostage. And then we pan out past the offices to see Hamilton standing in the lobby watching him through the window.
And like I hinted before, the music at the end of this episode is a variation of the music that played when Doyle sacrificed his life in Hero.
And Doyle's theme and Angel's Hero themes are very similar as well.
We kind of have a little bit of that. And then cautionary tale of numero cinco when Darla sacrificed herself for Connor. Like, there's. There's these themes that pop up whenever there's a sacrifice that's happening. And.
And I do kind of think that, like, this idea of sacrificing so others can carry on the good fight is the intention of the episode, and that's the message behind their decision to do this foolish plan.
[01:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, maybe they think, like, we're just too corrupt. We're just too up to keep fighting the good fight. So we're gonna.
[01:15:36] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe we deserve to be taken.
[01:15:38] Speaker B: We're gonna just, like, blow it up. We're gonna hurt the bad guys for a small moment. And then there's always going to be heroes in the world that will come and pick up.
[01:15:47] Speaker A: But our time is done. And, like. But our time damage than good. Yeah, I can't. Can't really argue with that.
[01:15:53] Speaker B: But I think that mindset should get punished with them surviving whatever the. Is going to happen and having to continue fighting because you don't get to decide that, Angel.
[01:16:03] Speaker A: And that's the whole thing of, like, the, like, the Orpheus thing. You don't get to just back out. Like, angel says, it's never over for us to Faith. Like, we don't get to just cop out. And that's. That's what makes me.
Yeah, right, right. It's like, it kind of goes against a lot of the themes that have popped up over and over again, even though I understand, like, they're also thematically trying to be like, the fight's never over, but whatever.
Well, yeah, okay.
[01:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, the fight is over, supposedly.
[01:16:32] Speaker A: So Doyle's theme played in Parting Gifts, the episode where Cordy realizes that she has Doyle's visions thanks to his kiss. And then in this episode, angel reveals that Cordy gave him those visions and anything and all that stuff. The music thematically ties in this idea of passing the baton of sacrificing for the mission reading. Angel says the theme also appears much later in Power Play when Angel tells his team about his planned massacre of the Blackthorn, which is likely to be a suicide mission. It begins, as Spike says, I'm in such a long range thematic connection. Recalling a character whose departure many fans deplored demonstrates that no matter how different season five is to season one, the team's fundamental premise is the same. With the hindsight of knowing the series was shortly to end, the musical reminiscence also has a poignant nostalgia, a recollection of the past that emphasizes just how much things have changed and how radically the show has transformed itself.
So, and that's it. One more episode. Leia, and then we are done with angel the series.
I mean we have our wrap up episode after that, but like one more like official episode to walk through. So I'm excited, I'm excited. I'm. I don't think my opinion is going to change that much. Yeah. But I am curious to see if maybe there's some more nuance to it and angles that I haven't thought of and. For sure, yeah.
[01:17:48] Speaker B: I think two things can be true at once. I think we can like the episode and we can like like how it plays out and enjoy the ending but also like not agree with it completely. That's always been my opinion about the angel finale.
[01:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:18:02] Speaker B: Love the episode.
This one and the next one. Like I love the two parter.
We'll never probably like like what ends up happening. But like I said, I enjoy that I have the option to headcanon what happens next. So like yes, it's okay.
[01:18:21] Speaker A: Especially how guts it is too. Honestly, there is not many series that ends the way this one does and I appreciate the boldness and it's willingness.
[01:18:30] Speaker B: It's truly a cliffhanger.
[01:18:32] Speaker A: They, they don't try to do it for the comfortable ending and I, I applaud that and I actually like really like that. So yeah.
[01:18:38] Speaker B: 100 yep.
[01:18:41] Speaker A: So all right. But listeners, I know we have probably so many people who have so many big thoughts about that.
Let us know your thoughts. At some point I think we're gonna like read out people's thoughts about the series finale and like season five and then our wrap up thoughts. Send us your thoughts for our recap episode or yeah for the entire series which will be in two weeks after this one airs. Thoughts about the finale and yeah, let us know. Do you guys like it? Do you guys think that Angel's plan thematically makes sense? Do you think it's foolish? Do you guys think that it thematically makes sense with the rest of the show or it doesn't. And, yeah, all that stuff. I don't know. Do you guys have questions? I have questions. Why. Why did. Why did angel say Drogon could take care of himself when Drogan died? Guys, like, I just. So many questions.
Does Angel. Angel really want to be with Nina?
Does Nina. Does Nina fully know that? This is just.
[01:19:35] Speaker B: I think.
I think that's the only part of the episode where I can definitively give you an answer. And that's going to be a no from me dog.
[01:19:42] Speaker A: And it's a no from me dog. It'd be a no for me dog. All right.
[01:19:46] Speaker B: He's never calling that girl again.
[01:19:48] Speaker A: Is Angel Oscar worthy? Is he?
[01:19:51] Speaker B: Yes.
Yes. That's. That's. That's indisputable at this point.
[01:19:56] Speaker A: So glad we have an answer to something. Hallelujah. So, yeah, give that.
[01:20:00] Speaker B: Oh, and his award.
[01:20:02] Speaker A: Do you guys think that Spike is possibly the one who has the most pure motivations? Maybe. Maybe Spook Spoik has those motivations. Like, do you guys think that Wesley and Gun have the best motivations in volunteering for this? Obviously, I think. I think it's murky. I think it's not just one thing. I think it's multiple things. But, yeah. Yeah. Curious what you guys think. So hopefully we didn't enrage you too much, but let us know your thoughts, and we will talk to you guys next time.
Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast, and you can email us at investigatingangelpodcast at gmail com.
