Show Notes
While trying to stop a children's show from continuing to steal the lives of its viewers, Angel is turned into a puppet.Â
View Full Transcript
Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're Talking about Season 5, Episode 14, Smile Time, written by Ben Edlund and kind of Joss Whedon. Directed by Ben Edlund. Aired February 18, 2004. Yeah, kind of. I'll. I'll have a quote later. And we have prophecy girls here with us. Welcome, ladies. Thank you for joining us.
[00:00:53] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Welcome, welcome.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: What a great episode to have you.
[00:00:57] Speaker C: Guys on for Self Esteem is for everyone.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. That's stuck in my head from Self.
[00:01:02] Speaker C: Esteem is for everyone.
[00:01:05] Speaker D: Can that be my ringtone?
I need that.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: The world is a daily. You can do whatever you want, Stephanie.
[00:01:12] Speaker D: Wow. The way I would totally binge watch Smile Time. Like, the way. The way whatever that show is called. I know.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Is it called that you have a smile child in your home? It would definitely be on tv.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: It would be on.
[00:01:25] Speaker D: That seems like quite quality programming.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Seems like quality programming. I was like, well, I mean, it's.
[00:01:33] Speaker D: Louie.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: I don't know if I could. I don't know if I could. I don't like kids programs that sing a lot, which I know is sacrilegious. It just starts to bother me after a while.
[00:01:43] Speaker D: Bear in the big blue.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: You mean you have something against Ms. Rachel.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: A little, too.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: You got beef with Ms. Rachel?
[00:01:51] Speaker A: How dare you personally with Ms. Rachel? No, my kids were a little old for Ms. Rachel when she became really popular, so we kind of missed this. That. But I don't know if you guys ever seen Blippi Cannot stand Blippi.
[00:02:02] Speaker D: No. No clue.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: Anyway, all right. But today we're talking about Smile Time, and I just can't help but think that you guys have picked all the best episodes for every single season, and you're gonna have such a hard time when you get back around and you have to recover everything and be like, man, we have a skewed version of what Angel's supposed to look like because we got all the best stuff already.
[00:02:26] Speaker D: Well, we are in season two of angel right now. And when we have covered episodes that we've already done with you, such as she, we often refer to the episode we recorded with Investigating angel. And we're like, here's what we said here. And I feel the same.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: Or I forget what I've said on your recording. And then I'm worried that I'm Just going to contradict myself and people are gonna catch me and expose me as the fraud that I am.
[00:02:53] Speaker D: Yeah. But because it's been like two years, let's say, since we did that particular episode. There was one. I don't remember what it was the conversation on, but Cara had a point and then I had a point, and I'm like, actually, we switched. You said that last time, and I'm saying it now. So we like it is what we're saying.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: You're rubbing off on each other is what's happening. You're becoming one.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Ooh, becoming one.
They've gazed into the eye for so long. Or was it.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: You are no longer Prophecy Girls. You are Prophecy Girl.
[00:03:24] Speaker D: Best one.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Just one.
[00:03:27] Speaker D: There can only be one merger.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: All right, so this episode was nominated for a 2005 Hugo Award in the category of best dramatic presentation, was rated the series second best episode in a poll done by angel magazine. I did not look up what the first one is, but I'm gonna guess it was.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: I think it's. I will remember you.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: I will remember you. Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:48] Speaker C: I will say my. This is my favorite episode of the series.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: I think a lot of the time.
[00:03:52] Speaker C: I don't necessarily think it's the best episode. I might give that to Orpheus, which we were on last time. We'll see how I feel once we're done getting through everything. I don't think Smile Time is the best episode in terms of plot or quality or story arc importance or whatever. It's just fun.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah. This is the funnest episode of the entire show, in my opinion. I think that makes it the best.
[00:04:15] Speaker D: I think that makes it the best. When I finished watching this episode, I had such a great time, and it made me so excited for angel, the series in general, and for where it's gonna go that I would also like to say that this is my favorite episode. And if we say it's the best because it is the most memorable, it is funny, it's incredibly enjoyable, which is what television should be, then it is the best episode of Angela.
[00:04:44] Speaker C: I will remember you.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: That's so fair. And I think that's something that. That's a conclusion I've come to with doing this show because there so many episodes that were neither good nor entertaining. And it was just like, at this point, I mean, the cream of the crop is one that is good and entertaining, but at this point, if there's one that's just simply entertaining, it's already shoots pretty high in my book, you know, So I mean, I don't know if my standards are lowering.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Season 5 has had those types of episode where it's not. They're not necessarily all great, but the majority of them have been entertaining. And I think that's why we're enjoying season five more than we have other seasons. So I think there's a lot of weight in, like, an episode being just fun to watch. Like, I was watching this episode and giggling. Like, I was sitting on my couch in my little blanket and I was like, yeah.
[00:05:36] Speaker D: Like, I personally think Little Prince.
Yeah. Was there Geppetto in the house? Like, they're.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: There's so many good quotes.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Oh, so good.
[00:05:44] Speaker D: I would. I would say it's funnier than the funniest Buffy episodes, which, like, I mean, obviously Band Candy is a great time on Buffy. Right. For some reason, me and Cara found some. Was it same place, same time, or whatever?
[00:05:58] Speaker A: We found that up time, same place.
[00:06:00] Speaker D: Same time, same place. We found that incredibly hilarious.
[00:06:02] Speaker C: We were losing it over gnarl.
[00:06:05] Speaker D: That's the thing. There's some, like, obviously funnier episodes in Buffy, but, like, this one's funnier.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: I'm sorry.
[00:06:11] Speaker D: Like, it's really, really well written. It's so, like, quirky and weird. Like, what a weird thing to be happening. But it's so good.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: But also, what whiplash coming from season two, where we are with Prophecy Girls. We're recording season two now. We're heading, you know, to season five here. And it's like, boom, Harmony, you know?
[00:06:32] Speaker D: Yes, Spike.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Spook is here and he's good again. We call him Spook on this show in this season, by the way.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: She says we forget and it's all Leia.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: He was a ghost for the first time.
[00:06:44] Speaker C: Stop trying to make Spook a thing, Leah.
[00:06:46] Speaker D: It's never gonna happen.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Lauren does call him Spooky Spook actually in the show, so.
[00:06:52] Speaker D: Oh, my God. Yeah. Lauren having a more significant role.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Finally. Holden Coffee is significant in comparison to a lot of the other stuff that he's holding hardly.
[00:07:03] Speaker D: In Holden Caulfield, Back from the Dead. Love to see it.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Angel coming around the corner, just holding in all his stuffing. The use of stuffing in this episode is so funny. They don't have blood. It's just stuffing. And it's just. Oh, my gosh.
[00:07:17] Speaker D: I mean, you can't even. The fight scene at the end, I was howling. I'm like, this is too funny.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: This is so good funny. Someone in our Discord shared. So there's like, actual life sized. Not life sized, but, like, Real life angel puppets. And there's actually a spike puppet, too, but I think it was Tara. She shared a picture of the angel puppet. And it's. It's in the most, like, insane position in the eye is, like, unhinged, just, like, standing there. Its jaw, its mouth is, like, wide open. It doesn't have a nose. And I'm like, where is it?
[00:07:46] Speaker A: It's very scary looking.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: And she responds, it's detachable. It's felt.
[00:07:50] Speaker D: It comes off. He says so himself.
[00:07:52] Speaker C: What else is detachable, Kara?
[00:07:57] Speaker A: It's just been so fun watching Cara's evolution over the past few years that we've been talking all these dirty jokes. Cara's now anticipating and then just getting ahead of Steph.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: She's literally, yeah, you guys.
[00:08:09] Speaker D: You wouldn't know it, but after season seven of Buffy, Kara and I are just dirty girls. And especially Kara.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: I love it.
[00:08:15] Speaker D: I was always a dirty girl, but Kara became a dirty girl.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: I've been corrupted.
[00:08:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: See, once again, no longer prophecy girls. Just prophecy girl.
[00:08:23] Speaker D: Prophecy girl.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Just one. One brain cell.
[00:08:28] Speaker D: The chosen one. So relatable, though, in every generation.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: This was actually the first episode to be aired after the WB announced that the series would not be renewed for another season. The cast and crew were film later episode underneath that we haven't gotten to yet. And that's when they found out about the cancellation, which we'll talk to when we get to it. But I. What a bummer. Like, one of the funniest episodes of the series. And being like, oh, this is so great. I can't see what. Can't wait to see what. They're going to pull out again later. And then it's like, boom, they're ending. So sad.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: But then the next episode, though.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: But then the next episode. Yeah.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Correct me if I'm wrong, Sarah. Didn't Joss Whedon force the studio's hand? And then it backfired.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: So from what I recall and what I have researched is Joss struggled with the fact that the studio would always wait till, like, the very last minute to renew the show. And because of it, it affected a lot of the actors and crew members finding other jobs. And so Joss didn't want that to happen. And so he kind of pushed a little bit harder to have it them find out sooner. And because he pushed, the network was like, fine, we're just canceling it because we can't give you an answer. And so, like, I don't know that I fully fault Joss for that. Because, like, it does make sense. Like, your actors want to be able to find work for the next pilot season, and they can't do that. And I do think it is kind of, like, crappy of the network to wait so long. And then I also think it's kind of crappy for the network to be like, well, we can't give you an answer, so, bam, we're just going to cancel it. But I also. We do know that, like, Jo. Joss and the network had a very, like, stress relationship at that relationship. So Joss should have known that maybe, like, tread a little bit more carefully because of everything that happened with Buffy moving to UPN and stuff.
But, yeah, I. It's. I'm excited to learn a little bit more once we get closer to that. But that's what I recall from. From all my research, that's what I've.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Read, too, is that it was more of a, you know, angel was always renewed last minute, and he kind of wanted an answer sooner, I think, because they had big plans for season six, too.
This was supposed to be, like, a transitional season. They weren't gonna stay at Wolverm and Hart for too long. And then they had a lot of plans for season six.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: It's a shame I'll never know what they are because I will never read the comics.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah, apparently the season comics are actually pretty good. Like the angel after the Fall comics I've heard. I haven't read them, and I don't plan on ever reading them, but I've heard that that's, like, the only comic that's pretty good. Out of all of the post series.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Buffyverse comics, David Fury says that the writers talked about doing an evil Sesame street show before season five aired, but it wasn't until Joss came around. He says, I figured out how to do it. Angel gets turned into a Muppet that we kind of went, hallelujah. That's brilliant. So Joss was originally set to write and direct this episode, but he came up with A Hole in the World for the next one and entrusted this one to Ben Edlund. And Ben Edlund says, Smile Time was my directing debut. And it was such a bizarre way to begin to start with a show and go, okay, we're not going to do the show that we normally do. We're going to do a show that should be built five feet above the ground like a puppet show. And we're going to do things that, engineering wise, have never been done in the pattern of this show. Never been done on any show that Anyone remembers. So that was impressive to me in terms of the challenge. But you couldn't know whether or not it would all fall apart once you started filming a puppet. And then you go, holy crap, we were so wrong. Every time we shot. All the dailies looked great. I also got to write all the songs for that episode, which had to be written in, like, three days. I was writing the songs with the Guitar Sleeping Overnight and Mutant Enemy working on the script simultaneously behind deadline and turned it in with these songs. Dang, it's oppressive.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: I love Ben Angela. He was quite important to Supernatural, especially in its later seasons, because he became one of the showrunners along with Jeremy Carver.
And this is the season of TV where he basically cut his teeth. He studied under Joss Whedon, and then his tutelage here led into his participation on Supernatural. And so I love that this episode is very much his thing because that also makes it a little bit easier to divorce it from the whole Joss Wheedon stuff.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, true. Well, that also makes a lot of sense because the little boy actor who plays whatever the kid's name at the very beginning of this episode. Tommy. Yeah. He goes on to play young Dean in Supernatural for two episodes. So a little bit of a dynamic.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: This is very much like I could imagine this episode being on supernatural.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: Except no women die. So.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Well, the girl puppet, but I guess there's the guy Puppets die, too, but yeah. Oh, my gosh. People have asked us to do. Have they asked us to cover Supernatural? Leia. Yeah, they've asked us, and I'm just like, absolutely not.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: That's too.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
Too much testosterone. But Also, it goes 35 years later.
I can't do that.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: I would be podcasting for decades.
[00:13:45] Speaker D: Podcast to your grave, ladies.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Thank you. Just the cash cow. Churn it out right now.
So, Joss. The reason why Joss really wanted to do a puppet episode is apparently he is the son of a former Muppet writer, Tom Whedon. And several puppeteers from the Jim Henson Company were involved in this episode, including Alice denean. She played Angel's hands. Leslie Carrara. Rudolph Victor Yeard as Polo, Julianne Brucher as Flora, Tim Blaney as Grufus, and Drew Massey. And Drew Massey was the one who designed and supervised the construction of the puppet characters and performed the puppet Angel.
And he has a really cool career. He voiced the worm guy and did the puppets in Men in Black, and he was the puppeteer in Forgetting Sarah Marshall. And then in the Community episode, Intro to Felt Surrogacy. And then Stuart Little too. Cats and Dogs, Muppets From Space. He's done a lot of stuff. Now he's directing like a lot of Disney kids TV series like Puss in Boots, Kung Fu Panda and stuff. But the person who voiced Grufus is Tim Blaney, who voiced Frank the pug in Men in Black one and two. So there's like a lot of like overlaps and stuff. Like Julianne Brochure did. Also did the puppets and forgetting Sarah Marshall. So you can tell like they're a very tight knit group and they do a lot of the same stuff. But it's just, it's fun because I feel like that's such a niche thing and so you get to see a lot of crossover in like episodes in media that do puppets.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: One thing about angel, the show, and especially after Remember and the Lineage, the actor that played Wesley's dad. Oh, yeah, there's just actors on this show that are just there for one episode that have gone on to have the most unbelievable careers where you're just like, I can't believe these people did these things. And I love that like this was kind of. You didn't really know who they were on this show, but then they went on and had just. Just unreal. Like Pascal. Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Well, I mean, on angel specifically, like there's like stunt doubles. There's Wesley's dad who like, man, he was everything under the sun 500 years.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Was in World War II and like. Yeah. A prisoner of war and stuff. Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: There's the guy that Skip that went on to like be in the office.
Right?
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: What was his name?
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Ron, Rob something or other. Yeah, I don't remember his name. Yeah. And I think that's one of the. My favorite parts of doing the podcast is being able to highlight these people that do so much behind the scenes. And it just makes it, at least for me, very rewarding in watching and being able to kind of tie back. But thought that was interesting.
So, yeah, thematically we all. I think it's pretty simple. Not only is this a fun episode, but it kind of ties in with the season theme of angel feeling like he has no control over himself and his destiny due to signing everything over to Wolverman Hart. He's been referred to as if puppet like three times this episode already. And so it. They really did such a good job of like, oh, this is a really fun concept. But also it still makes sense within the entire world of the season right now. And I really, like. We can't fully go into it now, but the clever thing is that nearly every character is also shown to be manipulated and puppeted in some way in this episode. Whether we won't fully understand that until next episode or the episode after. But it's really like, Spike through Lindsay, gun through his, like, chip in his head, and then others and stuff. It's just. It's very, very interesting, and I really like that.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: So this is a very rewarding episode to watch once you've seen all of angel, once you've seen the. The last half of seasons, season five. Because this episode. This episode is setting things up, and it's paying. It's paying things off, but you don't realize it's paying things off. So watching this episode, knowing, especially next episode.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he's painful. Yeah, dude. Yeah, it is.
So, all right, let's jump in. We start off in a woman's apartment, and we've got Smile Time, the children's show playing. We've got a little boy sitting on the couch with the thermometer in his mouth. His mom's on the phone, probably with, I think, with her own mom, trying to get her to come babysit so she can go to work. We've all been there, and we have Smile Time. It's like puppet dog. A little boy, little girl, all singing. And the mom leaves the room. And then we have the. They call him just Polo. Polo, the puppet looks around, seeing that the mom's not there, and approaches the TV screen, presses both his hands to it and says, okay, Tommy, you know what to do. He says, you should never break a promise. You don't want to be a bad apple, do you? Come on. You know, Smile Time isn't free. This is so dark, you guys. This is so, so dark. Now get over here and touch it. Tommy comes over, touches the tv, and Polo's, like, basically orgasmic. And he zaps this little kid. Tommy just looks even sicker, collapses and falls to the. The mom rushes back into the room. Polo, like Caesar, goes back and continues singing with the rest of the puppets. And then we cut straight, straight to credits and wow.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: And talk about the part where the kid was laying on the floor with his head. Oh, yeah.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: On his face. I just block that out and repress that because nothing is more terrifying than children that look creepy.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: It's like this style demon from the movie Smile.
[00:19:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Literally has traumatized me.
[00:19:07] Speaker D: Yeah. No, it was so well done. But what an eerie Beginning also, like, I don't know if this is because I'm a mom now or whatever, but, like, it hit me even harder. I've seen this episode many times, but.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: No, once you're a mom.
[00:19:21] Speaker D: Yeah. I was disturbed.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: I was like, yes.
[00:19:23] Speaker D: You know, a lot of people these days are making a case for bringing back the kind of houses that have separate rooms instead of the open concept house. And I was like, this is why I would never want to open concept house. I want to know exactly what my kid's watching while I'm in the kitchen or doing whatever I'm doing.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:40] Speaker D: So this doesn't happen. So smile time doesn't get them.
[00:19:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So smile time doesn't come and pollute your children.
[00:19:45] Speaker C: This is such a trenchant commentary on capitalism in 20th century America and that generation of kids who were raised watching screens, watching the television because their parents were both out working and kids just had to make do.
[00:19:59] Speaker D: I mean, we can always blame it on her, on her mom who just wasn't agreeing to come watch her grandson.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Boomer. Mom. Boomer. Grandma.
[00:20:08] Speaker D: Get off your ass. Get over here.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: All right, so we're now in the science lab, and Fred's looking into a microscope when Knox walks into her office carrying papers. He hands the files to her, says that a courier brought them, that they look like they're medical. And she flips through them and tells him that it's a mini epidemic in LA, that 11 children between the ages of 5 and 8 are hospitalized due to collapse. Of the last three weeks, none of them have woken up. And she's working under the assumption that this thing is mystical in nature. She shows the picture of Tommy or a child like Tommy who's, like, sitting in a hospital bed with this horrifying smile. And Knox is like, right. Could be the joker, Fred. And here's. And I'm sure Cara has a lot to say. Leia's. I'm sure you, all of you, have a lot to say. But the switch around with how Fred is treating Knox in this episode and how she can't stand him and how all of a sudden she's all over Wesley, I was like, you know what would have been really great is if we could have walked with Fred through that thought process and actually seen what it was that caused this.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: You're welcome.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: It was literally, yeah, Cordelia changed everything because you're welcome. There was that one that Wesley did, and all of a sudden, Fred was, like, looking at him with laughter. She doesn't look at him.
That's the only clue we've had that Fred might be looking at Wesley.
[00:21:25] Speaker C: And I don't. I don't recall exactly, but I think when we were on for Waiting in the Wings, was it you and I, Leia, who were talking about, like, Gun and Fred versus Wesley and Fred and.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Probably.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we were. We were all talking. We all had a lot to say about that. We were very pro.
[00:21:42] Speaker D: Gunn and Fred.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, we were. And I think a lot of us were saying that this. Yeah. Like, Wesley has a lot of growth before he's ready to be with Fred. And it's very icky because it's like.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: A.
I want to be supportive of Fred in this episode because I want Fred to get what she wants. Right. So if she's decided. Decided. If she's decided that she wants Wesley, then you deserve that. But I think you've made a really salient point here, Sarah, which is the logic of Fred's change of heart here is so opaque to us as viewers.
It really feels like it's only in service of story arcs in this season. And I think, to me, that's kind of one of the criticisms I have of seasons four and five of angel is they really start doing a number on the character depth in a way that we didn't often see in Buffy. We saw it here and there, but Steph and I were having a discussion during our season one wrap up of angel where I criticized season one of angel because it was a predominantly male cast and the show was favoring action over interiority. Because when you have a predominantly female cast, you tend to have a lot more, like, girl talk conversations, because that's the assumption is your female audience wants talkie talk talk. And we didn't get as much of that in angel, at least in season one, whereas you got more of that in Buffy. And here we have something similar happening with season five, where it's like. Like, again, gender ratio of the cast. Not great anymore.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: And it's never great.
It's never great. Yeah.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: And, like, we know that Joss Whedon and the other writers can do interiority for their characters, especially the female characters. So it's not a tough ask, like you were saying, Sarah, to have Fred, like, show us things from Fred's perspective.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: We.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: We had Fred, like, chatting with Harmony. Right?
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:47] Speaker C: That was such a great scene because. Sorry, not in this episode, but, like, previously in this season.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Harm's way.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Sorry. Not disharmony.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I loved that scene so much because it's such a rare moment of girl talk. In Angel.
And it's just. It's so unfortunate, you know, because I want to root for Fred and Wesley. It makes so much sense on paper, but it. I.
[00:24:13] Speaker D: Well, two points. The first one is season one of angel did not pass the Bechdahl test, but by season two, it has. Because so far from what we've covered, because Lila had a conversation with the telekinesis girl.
That's my first point. The second point to that is to add on to what you're saying, Hara, is that not only does this show know how to have those female relationships and those female conversations, they know how to write for that, but they also know how to build romance. They've done it really well in the past. Not always, but there have been there. We have very good examples of them building a good romantic story or a natural progression, like Fred and Gun, for example. A natural progression into something that we enjoyed watching.
So I agree that Fred and Wesley together here, it's just like, whoa, like, where's the buildup? Where's the intrigue? Why is Fred all of a sudden seeing this, you know, out of the blue? I get that, and I agree. It's obviously to suit a bigger purpose that has little to do with her character and more to do with where they want that character to go, story wise.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I would argue that this thing with Wesley and Fred has been actually built up from season three. The problem is that it's been built up from Wesley's point of view. Not for Fred, though, only especially like this season. Like in Lineage, that was kind of when they first started reintroducing the whole thing again. But it was very much like reducing Fred to a plot device to make Wesley shoot his father. And then he tells her that he shot his father because he was hurting her. And then she's supposed to be very impressed with that. Like, it's just. It just. It leaves a bad taste. But, like, my thing with the two of them is that I think they work so well on screen together. I love their scenes together. I think they have great chemistry and that makes me want to root for them. But at the same time, just like, knowing what happens, like, what comes later, too, I'm just like, the way that.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: Fred gets sidelined in this season is a crime.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But I would say Fred's been sidelined since even last season as well. Like, there was only one episode where she took on Jasmine by herself, but even then they started shoehorning her with Angel. It was just like, there's. There's just she's been sidelined so much, and it's frustrating because she had such a good arc or, like, premise with being trapped in another dimension and trying to be the person that saves herself and not always be saved by other people. And. Yeah, it's just. It makes me mad when I think about it.
[00:26:51] Speaker D: Some positives. I like seeing Fred in her natural habitat. Habitat of a lab. You know, Like, I like seeing women stem. I liked. I liked that element to this particular conversation with Holden. Holden.
But I. I enjoy, like, I know I haven't watched Fred on the show yet during our rewatch, so getting a little taste of it here from where we saw her last when we were with you is nice.
I also want to add that maybe. Maybe this, like, sudden attraction to Wesley has to do with their new situation in a business setting, an office, you know, co workers to lovers, it gets a little sexy.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: But there hasn't been an office.
[00:27:38] Speaker D: No, it wasn't an office. That was a hotel. There's a very different vibe.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Hotels are more sexy than Wolfram and Hart offices.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: No, no, no.
[00:27:48] Speaker D: There's something about co workers to lovers having, like, you know, like, they're both in more an area where maybe they're excelling, especially her science.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:58] Speaker D: O. I'm. I'm here for this. You know what? I'm gonna let it go because I'm, like, you know what I would find the sexiest?
[00:28:04] Speaker B: I will say this season, I feel, is Fred at her most, like, adult and her most confident, even though she does, like, sometimes they do put her in the background. But I feel like this season showcases more of Fred, like, just taking ownership of herself and, like, taking, like, just being a boss kind of.
Whereas last season she was sidelined a lot more. So I do enjoy that. And, like, for what's coming up, I have very mixed feelings about it, because on one hand, I really appreciate that the actress got to do what she's gonna be able to do. But on the other hand, I mean, we'll talk about it next. We'll talk about that next week. But, yeah, I will say this is a good. I think it's a good season for Fred in those ways. She gets to, like, she's the only woman in the main cast, so she kind of gets to, I guess, show off some more of her.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: She has to play all the parts, and she gets to play all the parts. Yeah. Yeah.
So Fred sees that Nox has slipped a greeting card. It was like a Valentine's Day card inside of her stack. And she's just like, thanks. We talked about this. And he's like, oh, I was thinking maybe we could talk about it again. And she's like, I'm sorry, Nox, but you have work to do. And he's like, okay, I do. Like, very clearly setting the. I'm your boss, and we're gonna keep it as a professional relationship here. So in the lobby, we have the elevator doors open and Nina coming in. She's looking all fashionable. I. I don't like Nina. I know, I know. There's no reason to like Dina. Nina. Dina. Whatever her name is, but Dina. I don't like Dina.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: Monster girl, the werewolf chick.
[00:29:53] Speaker D: This would be my biggest critique of the episode. And I can't tell if it's because it's not good in terms of, like, writing and character or if it's just my personal bias that I am like, who the fuck is this? Is this Kate's cousin?
[00:30:05] Speaker C: It's another blonde.
[00:30:06] Speaker D: Yeah. Like, this is so mid. Because I don't understand where angel finds the attraction. I'm sure she's a nice person. I'm sure she's a nice person.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: It's supposed to be. They've had this connection because they both come from. They're both monsters and stuff. And it's like, but Brusso was everybody else. Yeah, that's what they were trying to tell.
[00:30:25] Speaker C: So is Spike. And you don't see them fudgeing.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: Yeah, they should, right?
[00:30:31] Speaker D: Every woman he's ever faced in this entire show.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:30:35] Speaker D: So what is it about Nina? Is she a magic? Like, what is happening? Because I don't understand. I forgot she was in this episode when I was like, this is the best episode ever. And then as she came onto my screen, I was like, oh, I did what Sarah just did. I, like, puked in my mouth.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: That's how I feel. Every time she walks in, I'm like.
[00:30:53] Speaker C: Oh, I, I, I think Nina's fine. I don't.
[00:30:56] Speaker D: I don't love Nina.
[00:30:59] Speaker C: I'm neutral. Yeah, I do. I agree. Much, like, with the, the Fred and Wesley thing, like, the Angel Nina thing, it just comes out of nowhere. They're just like, angel needs a love interest.
[00:31:10] Speaker D: It's like, why?
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Like, why?
[00:31:13] Speaker A: Why? Because these shows don't know how to do any sort of character development unless someone's in a relationship. That's the primary way that they utilize character development.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Nothing ever really comes from this. Like, let's spoiler nothing. They don't do anything again.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: But that's what makes it even more infuriating. Is the fact that. Why is she here?
[00:31:35] Speaker D: And it's also like, smile time.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah, you're ruining smile time. Go away. Get off my screen. Literally.
[00:31:41] Speaker D: But that's my thing is like, again, I love this episode. It's the best one. And when Nina comes on the screen, it's kind of like when a fly lands on your hot dog at a barbecue. Swat it away. You know, I'm still gonna enjoy the barbecue.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: Adds a little extra flavor to your hot dog, but other than that, you don't notice it.
[00:31:58] Speaker D: So I don't notice it. It's fine.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: So she walks in. Angel, like, trips down the stairs. When he sees her, she says that she's back for basically the wolfram and heartbread and bed and breakfast. Oh, my gosh. I can't talk today. Bread and breakfast.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Bread and breakfast.
[00:32:13] Speaker D: Say it again. Say it again.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Bread and breakfast.
She says that she has 38 minutes until the full moon, and she hasn't told her sister yet. We get, like, little catch up and everything.
And Angel's like, all right, well, I'll. I'll take her down Harmony. And Harmony's kind of like, okay, what in the world? We find out later, everybody's been gossiping about them and stuff.
And then Gun shows up and is like, harmony, did you get a receipt from the county clerk on that filing I did for the Webern case? And she's like, oh, yeah, they called and said that you filed the wrong papers. And guns, like, what? She's like, yeah, unless, like, you did that on purpose. Some, like, weird, like, lawyer maneuver that you're trying to do. And Gun's like, yeah, definitely. But he walks away looking, like, really worried. I was like, ooh, something's wrong with your tapeworm implant. Yeah.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: And this is the second episode in a row where his little brain mojo has faltered.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:33:08] Speaker C: It's almost as if accepting the brain upgrade from the evil law firm wasn't a good idea.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: This is also the same guy that we saw sell his soul for a truck. Sue.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I love you, Gun. God, you're so much better than this.
[00:33:26] Speaker D: Everyone has problems.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: Angel's also better than you. So I can fix.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: I can fix you, you beautiful man.
[00:33:33] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: So in the basement, angel is going inside, and there's a cage with metal bars. And he's walking Nina to her cage, and she's, you know, talking about how she just loves coming because she looks forward to seeing angel, and actually, she looks forward to seeing angel all month. And angel looks incredibly uncomfortable and just goes, I should probably Close the gate. Just shuts the door. And she's like, what? And he was like, insurance.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Like, okay, bye.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: And then. Okay, bye. And then he, like, leaves, and she's just like, okay.
[00:34:04] Speaker D: It's giving. You know. You know, I'm super bad when Mikla.
When I think it's Michael Zara and the girl wants to walk with him to his next class, he's like, kazia and just, like, walks away.
[00:34:19] Speaker C: But also, like, all the men in this season, right? All the men in this episode are just acting like high school children.
[00:34:31] Speaker D: Immature.
[00:34:33] Speaker C: We know that Angel Fox, like. Like coming here from season two at this point.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: He hasn't had sex at all on this show since season two. Yeah, not even in season two. It was still.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: Yeah, he did. No, he slept right.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: When he got Rien sold or whatever.
[00:34:52] Speaker D: No, he slept with Darling on a table.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: No, that's what I'm saying. He slept with Darlin. Gained back his soul in metaphorically.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: The idea is humanity.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: How do you think Connor.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah, Connor was immaculate conception through Angel.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:35:07] Speaker C: But okay, but when I say Angel Fox, what I'm talking about, right, is he's got game.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: He's got the Riz.
[00:35:13] Speaker C: Angel has passion, Right. When it comes to making like, I just watched Dear Boy in season two, and angel and Darla are going at it, right?
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Whoa.
[00:35:25] Speaker D: Spoiler.
[00:35:29] Speaker C: It's not my fault you waited till before the episode to watch.
But, like, how. How do we go from there to Angel? Like, stuttering and making these awful excuses for Nina?
[00:35:42] Speaker A: I know. That's the thing. It feels like an insulting angel that he's going after her for, like, so hard.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Like, here's the thing. I think this is why it doesn't bother me as much. I think it's because angel is so clueless about it, and he's basically. To me, it just comes off as, like, oh, this girl's showing interest in him. And his friend Wesley yelled at him real quick, and he's like, you know what? Why not? Let me. Let me try it. Because, like, the 99 happiness thing, like, I like that part of it because it kind of shows. I mean, it sucks for Nina because he doesn't really. He's not that into her, like, very clearly.
But it also just like, reinforces the whole. The curse isn't sex, and it's, you know, perfect. Happiness is very rare to achieve, and he's more than likely not going to achieve it with Nina, so why not go on a breakfast date? You know? Like, it's not that serious. Sucks for Nina. But for Angel, I'm just like, okay. Like, yeah.
[00:36:40] Speaker C: The conversation that he and Wesley have is fantastic.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that part of it. And I don't think that would have come about if it wasn't for the Nina, you know, whatever thing.
[00:36:54] Speaker D: I just think it's just.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: It's silly.
[00:36:56] Speaker D: It's just. It's a silly part of it because as Kara said, Angel fucks Angel. Angel knows. Angel had, like, come to his pants when Jira looked at him in season one. Like, he knows.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Yes, definitely canon.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: He did. The fact that you can't take a shower.
[00:37:13] Speaker D: I can't even talk around Nina. I gotta close the cage. I was like, what the what the what?
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. All right. So Nina asks him out for a breakfast date, and he's like, haha. Then he just, like, leaves. And we're now in Wesley's office. This is the conversation we were talking about. And I love how passionate Wesley gets about this. When Angel's like, she asked me for breakfast. And I, you know, ignored it completely changed the subject and locked her in her cage. And Wesley's like, sorry, what? And Angel's like, well, you know, it wasn't just breakfast. You know, it was breakfast. And I mean, here we had this very good platonic thing. Wesley's like, are you blind? Like, shouting. He's like, angel, there are things called signals.
Odorless, yes. Invisible, certainly, but unmistakable. Like the one she's been casting your way for months. He's like, this isn't just for me. This comes from people who know. This comes from the ladies.
[00:38:08] Speaker D: I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with this because I work in an office. I work in corporate culture. That's exactly what the fuck happens. Everybody, all the ladies are getting together and talking dirt on their co workers to be like, oh, like those people took. Got in the car together and went for lunch. What do you think's happening there? Like, this is a real thing. So I really love that it's been incorporated onto this show, but I question if they.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: The ladies would then tell Wesley.
[00:38:36] Speaker D: No, they would. Oh, my God. If you have one trusted male colleague who's one of the girls and, like, comes to lunch with you.
[00:38:43] Speaker C: Okay, that's fair.
[00:38:43] Speaker D: You're giving him all the tea.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: It's the girls from Transcription. And I feel like Wesley works pretty closely with Transcription girls. And then Harmony will tell anybody with a heartbeat or not.
[00:38:54] Speaker D: Yeah. If it's the right male colleague. It's almost more fun that they know and then they carry that with them.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: Forever than you.
[00:39:01] Speaker C: I. I choose to believe that this is actually Wesley's reaction is actually, because he really likes breakfast and he's insulted.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: That he's sitting down a breakfast date. Yep.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: He is British, after all.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Well, the funny thing to me.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Do the British like breakfast scones?
[00:39:16] Speaker D: I mean, you're the one that brought it up, the stereotype. So you tell us.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Scones. They love scones, right?
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: And tea.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: English breakfast.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: I think it's funny, too, because kind of going back to what you were saying, Cara, in harm's way, about how you had that conversation between Fred and Harmony, where Harmony is gossiping about what everybody has been saying about Fred and Wesley and how Wesley's over here going, hey, all the ladies have been talking about this, not knowing that everyone's also talking about him. And you know Fred. So funny.
[00:39:42] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Also.
Also, boy talk. Like, I love to see the boy talk. Is it juvenile? Yeah. Does I. Do I feel like they're in, like, junior high? I do, But I don't care because it's also setting us up for what's happening with Wesley and Fred, which is exactly, really, actually brilliant writing, in my opinion.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep.
So then Wesley talks about, you know, what if you achieve a moment of perfect happiness? And Angel's like, I'm. I turned back into Angelus, and we don't want that. And Wesley Scoffs and says, 99.0.999 at infinity, Tim. Percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness. And he says, hiding behind your curse when there's a beautiful, engaging. All right, Occasionally. What does he say here, suit, young woman who actually wants you. And I'm like, wes is sounding like he hasn't had any for a while. He's sounding a little passionate about, also Angel.
[00:40:36] Speaker D: You can get whoever you want. It doesn't have to be her.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Angel, she's throwing herself at you. Come on, just take it.
And then Angel's like, you know, it's not going to happen because I'm not that guy. I have, you know, emotional baggage, and I'm dark and broody, and Wesley's like, get over it. And I'm just like, why are you yelling at me?
[00:40:56] Speaker C: It's also wonderful because whenever I watch this series, I always think about how Wesley, to me, has the most incredible arc. He starts off as this absolute terrible watcher in Buffy, and then when he comes to angel, he's the biggest dork, the biggest loser, and he somehow evolves into this suave you know, researcher, mystical fighter guy.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: That's Lila's insightful.
[00:41:24] Speaker D: A guy that the ladies want to talk to.
[00:41:26] Speaker C: Right? But also, he sings angel to the bottom of the ocean, and angel slits Wesley's throat. Like, these two have gone at each other in the most horrible, violent way. And now here they are sitting and having juvenile guy talk. And it's like, wow.
[00:41:46] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Angel was smothering him with a pillow just two seasons ago. Like, this is crazy work over here. Yeah, no, totally. I agree.
All right, so Angel's like, hey, hey, who are we talking about here? And Wesley goes, fred. Just as, you know, Fred walks in, just in case we all didn't know. She looks so cute this episode with all her mini skirts. It's like, I want to wear. I want to wear.
[00:42:08] Speaker B: One thing I will say that I do appreciate is that in Angel's last romance. Ish, the curse was never mentioned even once. I appreciate that it's something that was brought up this time around if they're trying to set this thing up with Nina. I was gonna say Lila, for some reason, I wish. But with Nina, I appreciate that that's, like, the first thing that comes to Angela, because that is the first thing that he should be thinking about if he's ever considering romance. And that was definitely neglected in season three.
So I appreciate that here. And I think, again, it brings it down to a very casual level, which I think that's the only way for angel to have any type of romance. Unless it's Darla, because they have a really long past, and you can explore, like, so many variations of that relationship. But otherwise, I just think, like, the casual stuff with angel works. Can work. I'll say. Which is another reason why this whole Nina thing. I'm just like, meh. Yeah.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: I'm not saying it's logical. I just hate her. That's all I can say.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: No, that's fair. She's not a memorable character.
[00:43:17] Speaker D: But I also want to comment on Fred fashion. And that is to say, it is unprofessional for the workplace.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: She's trying to send signals. She's sending signals.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: It's certainly not safe in a lab setting.
[00:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. But she looks hot, so you gotta.
[00:43:35] Speaker D: I mean, hot, whatever, girl. Like, say what you will about corporate culture and what we can or cannot wear to the office. I'm just saying.
[00:43:44] Speaker C: Well, I. I think there's two ways to. To read Fred's fashion choices here. The first is, you know, Fred's arc for the past three seasons has been she lived in a hellish dimension for several years. And then when she came back, you know, she really had to kind of rediscover her connection to, like, civilization and become more comfortable with herself and her femininity. Right. And we've seen that explored. We saw that in Waiting in the Wings when we gestured on that and how Cordelia kind of helped Fred come out of her shell and. And dress up and look hot and stuff. Right? So in that sense, like, I, you know, I want to be like, go, Fred. Like, yeah, you can look sexy in the workplace, girl. You know, like, that's what I would do. But at the same time, I'm sitting here watching this show and thinking, like, is this just a fetish thing? Is Joss Whedon just dressing her like this because he wants to look at her on the screen like this?
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, they've definitely. I feel like they're trying to dress her older this season, and they've. They've definitely done that. I feel like the shorter skirts and stuff for this episode is to show that they're paralleling what Nina did. Nina came in, dressed extra nice, hair, done all that stuff to get Angel's attention. I think they're having Fred dress extra nice to get Wesley's attention.
But obviously it's a Joss Whedon show, so there's always that undercurrent of, okay, but, you know, with everything. My guess is, from a story perspective, they want Fred to be sending signals, you know, but who knows? All right, but she comes in, hands over the files to angel and Wesley about the children's epidemic. And she says that she's been down every physiological route. She thinks it's mystical. And she says that the only. Or, well, angel, as he's going through the papers, as she's discussing this, says that the television is kind of the common denominator, that all the kids collapse between 7 and 7:30 in front of the television. And then Fred's like, all right, I still want to handle on the pathology. And Angel's like, I'll follow. Follow up with this lead. Like, you know, very, very enthusiastically. I'll need to clear my schedule. These kids need to help. And then Fred's like, wow, he really jumped on that one. Wesley's like, yeah, he's really a bit jumpy. And then he talks about how Nina, he. Angel, has realized that Nina has feelings for him. And Fred's like, well, that took long enough. Wesley talks about how angel can be rather dense. And we see Fred being like, huh? By the way, My car. She practically, like, twirls her hair and her fingers, by the way. My car is in the shop again and thinking. And Wesley's like, oh, of course. And he grabs the phone and she's like, maybe you and I. And he's like. He holds up his finger and he's like, yes, into the phone. Ms. Sprel needs a driver to take her home tonight. And he, like, is basically, like, mansplaining. And this moment is just so funny to me because Wesley is, like, over there, like, yes, yes, I know all your needs. I know what you need before, like, you can even say it. I can anticipate everything. He's getting it so wrong. Even, like, the look he gives her. It's just so. I know they mean it to be like, you know, oh, he's stupid and silly, but it just looks condescending.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Yeah, he doesn't care.
I have a question, which is, why do you have to send signals?
I don't get it. Can you please explain to Aroace, Cara, why you have to send signals? Why can't you not just go up to somebody and say, I like you. Do you like me? Can we go on a date?
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Because rejection. That's why. Because the fear of rejection. Yeah, the fear of rejection is greater than one's desire to just.
[00:47:20] Speaker C: So you torture yourselves instead.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Because I'd rather be hurt by my own feelings than be hurt than have somebody else hurt my feelings.
[00:47:30] Speaker C: Well, that's a nice way of explaining it. Thank you, Leah.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. That's why you often see a lot of this kind of behavior in high school, middle school, even sometimes in college, because young people feel so.
Just insecure, like, you know, the whole. That's the whole point of this episode. But young people feel very insecure. And so there's this. This idea of, like, I have to protect myself versus, once we get to be adults, you come become a lot more settled in yourself, hopefully. And we typically don't play this game. We typically just come right out and say, hey, I like you.
[00:48:04] Speaker D: Let's.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: Let's go to lunch, you know?
[00:48:05] Speaker B: But also, I think sometimes the game is fun to play.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Sometimes it is. Yeah.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: The act of, like, trying to figure out if somebody is into you and, you know, you're into them. And I feel like sometimes, like, it can be fun if you're sure of yourself and you're just kind of doing it for fun. But I feel like most of the time it's like a insecurity type of thing.
[00:48:26] Speaker D: That's the Whole point of attraction.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:30] Speaker D: It's like fishing.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: Like a game.
[00:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: You get this, like, rush. You're like, oh, but do they?
[00:48:36] Speaker D: Yeah. And, like, it's like the crush of it. All right, so I agree with what you're saying. It's like, it's fun. It's exciting. It keeps you interested. It makes you want to go to the office to, like, talk to your work crush. And, like, oh, he just said that. And then you go and you analyze it with the ladies, and then, you know, like.
[00:48:54] Speaker C: And you do enjoy that part.
[00:48:56] Speaker D: Yeah. And then you find reasons to see them again so you can have more things to talk about with the ladies. And then it all comes to a head.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: And then you lose interest. And then you lose interest. And then you're like, oh, I just got the ick. And then you go, right?
[00:49:13] Speaker D: And then you play the game again. So that's. That's how it's done.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds terrible. What the hell are we doing as a society?
[00:49:23] Speaker D: What?
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Leia's like, yeah, it's so fun. Actually, that sounds terrible.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Oh, it's literally psychological torture. But it's fine. It's funny.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: We make our own fun. There's nothing else to do.
All right, so now we're at Angel's office, and Lauren is sitting on the edge of Angel's desk while angel reviews papers. And he's like, oh, the signals are there loud and clear. Nino definitely wants a piece of angel cake. Angel's like, lord, can we. Can we get back to the job? Lauren's like, your wish, dreamboat. My command. And then he is talking about how he found out that smile time airs between 7 and 7:30. He was like, you know, that'd be really funny because the fact that these kids are. Have smiles pasted on their. Their faces is. It's a really popular kids show in the SoCal Regional Market.
And as soon as he holds up the picture and says the title, Angel's like, yep, that would be it. So now we get to the television studio hallway, and, like, there's a section marked closed set. Absolutely no visitors. Angel's walking down this empty office hallway, and there's a creepy janitor that just has, like, no look on his face as he just, like, walks right past. And inside of the offices, Angel's walking through. There seems to be no one there. Like, the lights are off. He hears, like, this, like, low sound, this rattling sound, and eventually makes it to a filing cabinet that's shaking pretty heavily against the wall, moves it over, and there's now this hole in the wall that he walks through and ends up finding like this little like hidden television studio. This is so weird. He, like gets in. There's like this man hunched over with a towel over his head and he's kind of like shaking a little bit. And there's a like this large metallic egg shaped, glowy thing above his head. And the man twitches and says, you shouldn't be here. And all of a sudden the rumbling sound gets louder. The egg thing opens to make like this big, like, smile almost. And angel gets knocked back in a blast into a bunch of cardboard boxes. And when he comes to and like pulls himself out, his little hand up his little four finger hand is so cute. I love the detail.
[00:51:27] Speaker C: So is that man supposed to be Frampton?
[00:51:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:51:31] Speaker C: Okay. I. I just, I've never understood the man. I don't know. Why does he have a towel on his head? Like, I get the vibe he's sweating. It's. It's very supernatural and it's very creepy. Like, I have no criticism for it. I just, I didn't understand why.
[00:51:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the only thing they're trying to say is like, it's like putting away your puppets when you're done with them for the day. Maybe they put the man away because they're done with him for a minute.
[00:51:52] Speaker C: But I would like to put men away. Yes.
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:57] Speaker D: That's why you.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Never.
[00:52:00] Speaker D: Again. If I were to critique this amazing best ever episode.
[00:52:05] Speaker A: No, no, this episode. Yeah.
[00:52:06] Speaker D: Not just the Nina stuff, like, but the walk through this dark back area of the studio took too long. Took too long. So, like, you're taken away from my precious puppet time. Stop with the Nina. Stop with the wandering of the hallways. Get to the point, because we want to see. See Angel's fluffy hand and then his adorable little fucking face. That's what I want to see.
[00:52:27] Speaker B: We want to see the Little prince.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I couldn't believe how long this took. I was like, my gosh, get to it already. It was like. And then another room. And then another room. For what fact? Yeah. Just to make it really creepy and eerie. This guy Frampton, I think is his name. He's played by David Fury. So.
[00:52:45] Speaker B: Okay, I was gonna ask you because I'm like, I recognize that face and the voice and.
[00:52:50] Speaker A: Yeah, the mustard guy from.
[00:52:52] Speaker B: He did a really great job.
[00:52:53] Speaker A: He did a really good job. Yeah.
[00:52:55] Speaker D: It probably actually is the mustard guy from Buffy. Like, like as in the character. Oh, the character.
Right.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: This man is just having a rough life. Mustard on his Clothes puppet's hands jammed up into his.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: Maybe he was inspired by being under Sweets a spell to start a puppet singing show.
[00:53:16] Speaker A: I think himself, probably.
[00:53:18] Speaker D: What exactly would happen?
[00:53:20] Speaker B: Damn the lore. It goes on.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: So then, back at the science lab, Fred is working at her desk in front of the computer when her phone rings. And it's Angel. And he's like, fred? And she's like, hey, Angel. I don't think it's actually mystical at all. She keeps interrupting him, talking about how Knox found this thing that, you know, ties into other things. Angel's like, fred. He's like, stop talking. Believe me, it's mystical. And then we cut to his office, and Fred pokes her head in. An angel sitting in his chair, except it's facing the other way around so we can't see. And she's like, are you all right? And gun comes in. He's like, you sound weird on the phone. And Wesley's there, too. He's like, is there a problem? Angel's like, yes, there's a problem. Then he does the evil villain swivel his office chair. And they're like, whoa. They're like, angel, is that you? And he's like, like, fred, don't. When she tells him that he's cute.
[00:54:11] Speaker D: Oh, my God, I love that so much. She's like, you're just.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: You're so cute. He's like, you're fired. And then Lauren walks in. He's like, sorry, I'm late, gang. He's like, wow, what's with the big puppet? And then Wesley's like, angel, what happened? And puppet Angel's like, I'm not sure. I went over to Smile Time last night. I think their office is under some kind of spell. I met this guy with the towel over his head, and something exploded. And I woke up like this. And everyone's, like, trying so desperately not to laugh. Like maybe some. Some sort of puppet cancer.
I don't have puppet cancer.
[00:54:42] Speaker D: That. Yeah. That is probably the best line.
[00:54:45] Speaker C: One of the best lines.
[00:54:47] Speaker D: Puppet cancer. Like, that's. That's amazing writing. It doesn't get better than this.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: My favorite is. He goes, hey, it's smile time. And he, like, hops down like a little kid and just, like, clomps like a dog.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: We just heard a whistle.
[00:55:01] Speaker C: The. The puppeteering of the expressions on Angel's face. Oh, my God, So good.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: It's so. Forehead.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Make it so that his, like, emotional control, his impulse control, everything is, like, lowered, almost like a child's would be. And he just gets angry and Frustrated. And it just is really, really funny.
[00:55:19] Speaker B: Okay, can we talk about the fact that, like, Angelus is in there somewhere and Angelus the goldfish just swimming around. Imagine an Angelus puppet.
[00:55:28] Speaker C: So pissed.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: Or Muppet, whatever that would be. Like.
[00:55:32] Speaker D: I bet if Orpheus happened after this episode. That's one of the flashbacks.
[00:55:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
Imagine two puppet angels fighting each other like an Orpheus.
[00:55:47] Speaker C: A missed opportunity, I like to believe, because at this point, Faith is now post season seven Buffy, you know, she's off in a wind somewhere. I'm assuming she didn't go back to prison. Why would you.
But I like to believe that she and angel still have, like, a weekly phone chat.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:56:06] Speaker C: And I can imagine this week's phone chat would be, you know, Faith would be updating him, and then he'd be. She's like, and how about you?
[00:56:12] Speaker D: And he's like, I don't want to talk about it.
[00:56:13] Speaker C: I was a puppet.
[00:56:16] Speaker D: Puppet cancer.
[00:56:21] Speaker B: I don't have puppet cancer. That's like when people say to angel that vampires sleep in coffins. And he gets so offended, he's like, no, we don't.
[00:56:30] Speaker C: Annoyed. Angel is my favorite.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: Angel same.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: I love it when he's annoyed. And then the show is also kind of picking at him, too. Like that one in Lie to Me, where he's like, vampires don't dress like that. As he walks right by the kid dressed just like him. So funny.
[00:56:45] Speaker D: I said it back then and I'll say it now. Like, when they get. When they finally understand Angel's character in, like, those early seasons of Buffy, they understand the humor that could so easily accompany that character, and they get it so right. And this is one of those moments.
[00:57:01] Speaker C: And the fact is, you've pointed out on Prophecy Girls, Steph, that David Borean desperately wants to be a comedic actor, but is too hot to be allowed to be comedic.
[00:57:09] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:57:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:10] Speaker D: It's truly his greatest weakness of that base because he's just like, I just want to be funny, and I want to camp around and I want to have a good time and a laugh, but everyone's like, no.
[00:57:20] Speaker A: No more darkness.
[00:57:22] Speaker D: You're too hot for that. Like, who do you think you are? Like, no. Yes.
[00:57:27] Speaker B: It's so true.
[00:57:28] Speaker D: Free ain't free. David free.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: David Boreanas. David Fury and David Boreanas.
I love how, like, everyone's gentle parenting angel right now. They're like, you have the excitability of a puppet your size. Lauren takes away the remote. He's like, it'll be okay. Angel.
And the TV comes on, and they are talking about how self esteem is for everybody. And this song is just so freaking catchy. And Angel's just getting angrier and angrier as he's watching them sing about self esteem. And he's like, wes, put the special ops team on red alert. And Wesley's like, red alert. He's like, I want helicopters and tear gas. And he's like, this is Warren. And Lord's like, angel, baby, Muppet pumpkin. This show is number one on its time slot. Tykes love it all across the Southland. We can't just toss a jihad at their studio.
And then Lauren's like. Or Angel's like, all right, who runs Smile Time? Lauren says, it's Gregor Framkin. And then he is like, you can. Or angel says, you and gun head over there and meet with Fram can put some pressure on him. Fred West, I need you guys to figure out what Framkin did to those kids and what he's done to me. So everyone turns to leave Angel's office, and Angel's like, guys, this condition is classified until further notice. And then he's just stuck in there with the TV program going on and on and on.
So then he's getting up to go back to his desk when Nina comes in. He gasps in fright, turns off the tv, throws the remote into the air as he takes a flying leap toward his desk, lands under his chair, and scrambles to hide under his desk, but then ends up knocking over a trash can. And Nina's like, are you under your desk?
[00:59:06] Speaker B: And he's like, no, he wouldn't fit under there. Come on.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: And she's like, well, I can't.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: His shoulders are too big.
[00:59:14] Speaker D: He's too hot, too high.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: This is embarrassing. And honestly, like, I do have to give Nina her props. Girl is persuasive. Or not persuasive, but she's very persistent. And, you know, at a certain point when she is diving underneath the desk, you do have to throw in the towel. Like, it might be time to give up.
[00:59:32] Speaker D: I don't want to. I don't want any examples of where I could relate to Nina.
[00:59:37] Speaker A: Me either. But you know what? We are an objective podcast, Steph, and we are we.
[00:59:42] Speaker D: I don't. I don't want those.
[00:59:45] Speaker A: Are we? No, we are not.
[00:59:47] Speaker D: Because I totally agree. Shoot your shot, girl. That's a hot piece if you want it. Go for, he's CEO, God damn it.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: But if he's hiding under his desk, maybe take the L. Maybe he drops something under there.
[00:59:59] Speaker D: She leaves What?
[01:00:02] Speaker B: Maybe he dropped something.
[01:00:05] Speaker A: Oh, I thought you said something.
[01:00:07] Speaker D: You guys are being dirty girls.
[01:00:09] Speaker A: I was like, wow, we've come so far from she.
[01:00:13] Speaker D: Wait, what did you hear?
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Like, I thought he said he was doing something else under there.
Nina runs in, and it's like, was.
[01:00:23] Speaker C: He doing someone else?
[01:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, like jerking off Eve back there. Oh, God, Eve.
Anyway, gonna be so mad when he finds out that Eve slept with Angel.
[01:00:38] Speaker A: I don't know if he will find out. He's in hell right now. Or purgatory or wherever. And who knows where Nina's at. We just don't know.
[01:00:43] Speaker B: But, man, But Nina's like, reason why.
[01:00:47] Speaker A: You won't look at me. Angel's like, because I'm under my desk. And then he's like, would you mind getting out of here? And she's like, all right. Sorry, I guess she leaves. And then angel gets up and sits in his chair and is like, what a nightmare. And then, sure enough, the nightmare walks in. Spike.
He's like, hello, big guy. Need another car? Afraid this last one ended up in the drink. And then he just stares at angel. And we get this wonderful, like, flash back and forth, and he's like, spike, Spike. He's like, look at you.
[01:01:15] Speaker B: He's winding it up.
[01:01:16] Speaker A: Turn around and walk away. And Spike's like, you're a bloody puppet. And then we just see. Bam. Wouldn't be an angel episode without the office windows breaking somehow, some way.
[01:01:26] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[01:01:27] Speaker B: Oh, serious?
[01:01:31] Speaker A: Oh, you guys have noticed it too?
[01:01:34] Speaker C: Oh, it's a thing.
[01:01:35] Speaker A: Every episode, there is some sort of window that angel breaks.
[01:01:38] Speaker B: Property damage every day. Oh, my God.
[01:01:42] Speaker D: He's a koolaid, man.
[01:01:43] Speaker A: You know, it goes away for a while and it comes back in. Like, was it damage?
[01:01:48] Speaker C: Stop telling us that things go away.
[01:01:50] Speaker A: Sorry, guys.
[01:01:51] Speaker D: I want to hear that they stay forever.
[01:01:53] Speaker B: It comes back in season five, episode one, where somebody throws angel through, or angel throws somebody through a window.
[01:02:01] Speaker A: And I felt. I've never felt an angel angel more alive. I was like, yeah. I was like, we're back, guys.
[01:02:06] Speaker D: Yeah, we keep saying the angel's never met a window or door frame that he hasn't wanted to Kool Aid man his way through.
[01:02:12] Speaker C: It's because elevators are his one true love.
[01:02:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[01:02:17] Speaker D: Like, he also loves her slow ass.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: Elevator from season one.
[01:02:20] Speaker A: So funny. Oh, my gosh.
[01:02:22] Speaker D: Obsessed.
[01:02:22] Speaker A: The fact that they had to, like, like, turn it or fast forward it and, like, make it faster because the elevator was actually slow.
So funny.
Oh, my gosh, I'm such a millennial. I still say fast forward, speed up is the correct term.
All right, so Angel's attacking Spike, ringing his neck. Spike is like, you're a wee little puppet man. And angel punches him in the face. I love how he's like, ow, ow. He goes, hey, that's enough. Like, he's talking to a toddler.
[01:02:51] Speaker D: Okay?
[01:02:51] Speaker B: But that's so funny, because this entire season, Spike has gone through, like, all of the steps of growing up. He came back, he was acting like a baby, and then he went into his toddler phase where he would just throw tantrums all the time. And now he's in his teenage era where he just, like, shows up at Wolfram and Ryan.
[01:03:07] Speaker A: Dad, give me another car.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: Angel for money and a car.
And then he just, like, fucks off and nobody knows, like, what is Spike?
[01:03:15] Speaker A: What are they doing this entire episode? Yeah.
[01:03:17] Speaker B: Is he still living in the apartment that Lindsey got him? He must just playing that fucking video game all day.
[01:03:26] Speaker D: What was he doing that the car ended up in the river or the ocean or wherever the freaking.
He lost a bet.
[01:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:33] Speaker D: Kitten poker. I have said this before, and this is such a good reminder of it for me. Who hasn't seen Spike in a while? And I'm not crying about that.
It's the fact that when you use Spike correctly, he's at the best when he is used to elevate the material once in a while. He's the absolute best. And I want to love Spike. So does Kara. So do you guys. We want to love Spike so much. So when we get a scene like this, it's happening. I feel. I'm like, oh, my God, it's happening. This is the Spike that I yearn for. This is the spike that I want to see. Like, goofy James Marshall's fighting with a puppet. Like, you know, because obviously in real life, the puppet's not alive, I assume.
[01:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:23] Speaker D: And he's. It's just him rolling on the floor with a puppet and, like, this. This is what I'm here for. It's like, in season seven, he had that one scene in Storyteller where he's, like, doing the video with Andrew, and it's so stupid and, like. But that's. That's what we want.
Those are the scenes that I want to see.
[01:04:44] Speaker A: Agreed.
[01:04:44] Speaker D: So to see him doing this, and this is comedic genius. The things he's saying, the timing and the physicality of this fight with this puppet, it's fantastic. This is the highlight of the episode. It's like, yes, this is what we want. We Always want to see Spike and Angel either be petty with each other or fighting. But what we really always wanted was a puppet version of them fighting. And also like minor spoiler moving forward a little bit. Angel wins as the.
[01:05:17] Speaker A: Yes. He didn't win in Destiny, but he won here. And that's all that matters, right guys?
[01:05:22] Speaker C: Because he's stronger as a puppet.
[01:05:23] Speaker D: His rage, he's a better fighter as a puppet. And that's fucking funny.
[01:05:29] Speaker A: Well, and it's so funny because there's a quote by James Marcers where he's talking about how he blew so many scenes because he was laughing so hard. He thought it was so funny. And you can tell, I'm pretty sure that's like James Marcer's actual laugh. Like he's belly laughing when he's rolling around on the floor. And you can tell he's trying so hard not to laugh when the elevator doors open. He's like sitting there like rubbing his forehead corner. So funny, so fun.
[01:05:51] Speaker D: That's honestly, it could be so fun.
[01:05:54] Speaker B: I've seen quotes from both David Bora's Ain't and James Marster is talking about how much fun they had this season. How they both hadn't had that much fun on either shows in like a while. Obviously, like they were still doing their jobs and like were fine. But it's just you can tell when you watch them on screen together how much fun the actors are having portraying these characters. And it comes across a dynamic so much like. I think one of my favorite dynamics in the entire Buffyverse is Angel and Spike in like all of their variations. When they hate each other, when they like, like kind of like each other, but they don't want to admit that they like each other when they're having, literally when they're having like the quiet like self reflective moments. It's just so good. And that's why I could like, I could never hate Spike being a part of this season because I feel like I can tell that James Marsters is having the best time of his life. And I can tell that David Boreanas is having the best time of his life. And that's why I like that episode at the end of the season that everybody fucking hates. That's why I like it because I just think it's know it's infectious. The good times.
[01:07:04] Speaker D: Spike, Spike being a nuisance is best. Spike and like being a thorn in angel side or a pebble in his shoe, that's exactly where he needs to be. And that's what he's playing off here. It fucking works. The. The part that made me literally laugh so hard was at one point, he, like, takes the puppet and slams it against the wall.
And it's so violent, but it works so well. And I just laugh. Like, honestly, I think this is the funniest thing I've ever seen on either show.
[01:07:39] Speaker B: I think it is so funny.
[01:07:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
So angel realizes that everybody now knows. He looks at Harmony. He's like, shut up. What are you people looking at? Well, and then Spike's like, they're looking at the wee little puppet man. Angel growls, leaps towards Spike again. And then. Oh, yeah, that's right before they get it. They go into the elevator and they come out and. And then Angel's like, yes, I'm a puppet. Doesn't mean you don't have work to do. And he says, harmony, get my callist. And she looks at him so confused as we just watch him walk down the hallway as a puppet. Oh, my gosh.
[01:08:12] Speaker C: Leg after the other.
[01:08:13] Speaker D: Yeah, with his hands in his pockets.
[01:08:16] Speaker A: It's so cute. All right. So then, at Brilliant television studio offices, a woman escorts Gun and Lauren into Framkin's office. Framkin is wearing magnifying goggles, is bent over his workbench with a glue gun, creating puppy. And he's like, excuse me for not getting up a bit glued at the moment. And gun is like, Mr. Framkin, we've been tracking an epidemic that's affecting a great many. And then Framkin interrupts him and offers them cocoa and just seems like this jolly Santa Claus guy, which, you know, Lauren's like, listen, Santa, you can keep your tempting beverages to yourself. We're here from. And Framkin's like, yes, Wolfram and Hart. Yes, I've heard of it. And of you. Made quite an impression in our little industry. So much accomplishment. And they're, you know, just talking about, you know, courage and pluck. Courage and pluck. And they're like, you turned our boss into a puppet. And Gun tries to, like, use lawyer lingo and can't remember it all. It's like he's short circuiting in real life. And he's basically like, you know, you just need to stop. And Framekin's like, well, if your intent is to pressure me or extort money, then I'm afraid you're in for a fight. And Lauren's like, all right, well, fight suits us just fine, Papa Smurf. We're going to let the entire world know what you're in up to. And Then gun says, come on, Lauren, let's take off. And so he. They leave. And then we suddenly see that Polo puppet has his arm jammed into Framkin's back and Framkin is his puppets. And he gets on the phone and says, get everybody in here. We've got a problem. This was such a funny scene.
[01:09:45] Speaker D: Love.
[01:09:46] Speaker B: I love this little twist.
[01:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:48] Speaker B: It's just so good.
[01:09:49] Speaker C: It's one of the more graphic effects.
[01:09:51] Speaker A: That we've seen on the show, too.
[01:09:53] Speaker C: It's really gross.
[01:09:55] Speaker D: It's really unsettling.
[01:09:56] Speaker C: It's unsettling because, like, what is he puppeting? Like, where is that end going?
[01:10:01] Speaker D: Spine. Yeah.
[01:10:03] Speaker A: And that's the thing I found. I find the. Some of. I find the episodes in the show in both Buffy and Angel that are the funniest ones tend to be some of the darkest ones, too. Like, when it comes to the allegory, it's just crazy.
[01:10:16] Speaker D: Gnarl.
[01:10:17] Speaker A: Gnarl, yes, absolutely. Or killed by death, which I guess that one's a little more overt. But even, like, candy with, like, feeding babies to that monster and stuff, like, it tends to be really dark.
[01:10:27] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:10:28] Speaker B: When you.
[01:10:28] Speaker D: When you are upping the horror, you have to make it funny because again, when we were watching same time, same place, we were like, this episode has no business being this funny. It's probably the funniest one.
[01:10:40] Speaker A: So then we get this just really bizarre, like, scene between Polo and Gruffus puppet and the puppet girl where they're talking about, like, what they're going to do and. And Gruffus is getting angry and at the purple puppet who's just over there tooting. And they're talking about how that angel cat must have been the dude that broke into the don't room.
And Polo's like, all right, well, basically fix it, you guys. And he's like, we need to. The nest egg that they have talked about that was above David Fury, I guess it's already got enough power in it to keep their cloaking spells up and running, making our connections with the kitties even to turn this angel guy into a puppet. Basically, they're wanting to juice it up enough that they can zap a bun kids all at once and get a bunch. A bunch of power. So they decided that the next day they're going to go on air, and instead of draining just one kid, they're going to take out the whole entire demographic in one fell swoop. It's going to be like the biggest show ever.
And Griffith is like, cool, because I've been Working on this great new song about the difference between analogy and metaphor.
[01:11:45] Speaker B: Sick.
[01:11:46] Speaker D: I love it.
[01:11:48] Speaker A: Are you out of your mind? We eat babies, lives and group is like. And uphold a certain standard of quality edutainment.
[01:11:58] Speaker C: So real.
[01:12:00] Speaker D: I lost it there. That is so funny. That is so funny.
[01:12:04] Speaker A: So funny. All right, so then Polo's like, all right, after tomorrow's harvest, we're going to torch this crap hole and blow town before the rafters fall. And then Framkin says, please let me. And then Polo goes, someone say, you can join in and frame can says, please let me die. And then. Yeah, and then they just jerk.
[01:12:20] Speaker B: He's like, you want stick their hands back in?
[01:12:23] Speaker A: And he just, like, screamed. Yeah, he fists him. Pretty. Pretty dark. Pretty dark.
[01:12:27] Speaker D: Oh, my.
It was around this time, watching this episode, where, like, I had already suspected after the spike scene that this was the greatest episode of all time, but it was after this scene where I was like, no, this is the. Yeah, this is it. This is the one.
Because, like, I didn't know that I was lacking evil puppets plotting, you know, on my screen or in my mind.
It's brilliant. It's so good. These are such good villains. They have a great plan. Like, you know what I mean? Like, they're actually scary.
They're doing terrible things.
[01:13:02] Speaker A: They didn't have to show us the puppet side of things. Like, we probably would have been totally fine if they had. Just, like, they go in, they defeat the puppets. Who needs to know why they're doing what they're doing, yada, yada. But this entire sequence was so charming to me in this really twisted ev.
[01:13:16] Speaker B: Charming is the best.
[01:13:17] Speaker A: It was because it's like these puppets that look like they're straight off the Muppets from a kids show that you're expecting to be, you know. You know, they're singing about self esteem, and all of a sudden they're over here, like, cursing and jamming their fingers and fists up a man's back. And, like, it's pretty scary stuff, but it's funny. I don't know.
[01:13:34] Speaker B: It's also like. Yeah, this show sometimes has the thing where they have, like, cheesy dialogue at certain points. This cheesy dialogue works so well.
[01:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:13:45] Speaker B: Because it's coming from literal puppets.
[01:13:47] Speaker D: Yeah.
I mean, if you guys ever have seen or listened to the music of Avenue Q, which is a very popular Broadway show, that's basically Sesame street for adults. So it's. It's so, like, you have your Bert and Ernie characters, obviously, the. The Ernie character's Gay. Oh, no, sorry. The Burke character is gay. And like, Ernie's trying to like, work him through it.
[01:14:09] Speaker B: Work him through it.
[01:14:10] Speaker D: And like the end. They're like one end up. Ends up being homeless. Like, it's. It's a whole. It's a hilarious, hilarious play. But like, it's this concept of, like, when you have very childlike characters and like, society wise and just like in our culture, we associate puppets and puppetry and Muppets with children. And then you have them acting like not just adults, but terrible adults. It's. It's a subversion. It's. It's surprising. It's refreshing. It's funny.
[01:14:39] Speaker B: That's why. But it's also popular too. Chucky. Yeah, Chucky is so good. And like.
[01:14:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:14:47] Speaker B: Annabelle. Or what's the Megan that, like Robot Yasmine. Oh, my God, what a great greatest.
[01:14:55] Speaker D: Movie of like 2000.
[01:14:57] Speaker B: So good. 23.
[01:14:58] Speaker D: Whatever that was.
[01:14:59] Speaker B: Did you see the trailer for Megan too? That looks.
[01:15:02] Speaker A: I can't believe they turned it out already. My gosh.
[01:15:06] Speaker B: But they're taking it in a direction that's completely unhinged. And I absolutely love it. It's like, so creative.
[01:15:12] Speaker D: Just like angel did.
[01:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:15:13] Speaker A: With the puppets.
[01:15:14] Speaker D: Yeah. I want more evil puppet plotting. I love that. They're also concerned with making it a good show. Like, it can't just be that we're. I don't know if they're planning to kill the children or just like, keep continuous suck.
[01:15:26] Speaker A: I think they're gonna kill the children.
[01:15:28] Speaker D: But at the same time, they're like. But it has to also be educational and a good thing because we have standards.
[01:15:33] Speaker A: Inherently bad, but we have standards need to have a certain level of entertainment. Yes, exactly. No, it's just. It's so entertaining. I didn't think I would be so entertained by like four puppets just sitting there and plotting. It was. It was really fun. So.
[01:15:47] Speaker D: And the fact that one of them doesn't speak, but they understand him.
[01:15:50] Speaker A: Right.
[01:15:50] Speaker D: Just honks.
[01:15:51] Speaker B: Ratio. Ratio Horns. What's his name?
[01:15:54] Speaker D: Or he's giving me. It's giving that purple guy from the McDonald's.
[01:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Or from that. Was that movie with Ryan Reynolds in it that the Imaginary Friends. I don't remember what it's called. Like, no one. See, no one has kids old enough. Okay. Never mind.
[01:16:09] Speaker C: Or the other movie you're talking about.
[01:16:11] Speaker A: But I don't remember what it's called.
[01:16:12] Speaker C: But yeah, Ratio is a play on Horatio Hornblower, which.
[01:16:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:16:21] Speaker A: Over here.
All right, so then back in the basement, Nina's Standing alone in her cage, holding on to the bars. As night falls, she sighs.
[01:16:29] Speaker B: Who cares?
[01:16:30] Speaker A: Take off her shirt. When she hears Angel's voice. And then he's all like, hey, Nina, you don't understand. She's like, no, no. You've got this whole complicated, important life going on. And he's like. And he steps out, and he. And she sees him as a puppet. And he was. He's like, I was turned into a puppet last night. And she's like, wow, are you okay?
And he was like, I made it felt. And then he pulls off his nose, and my nose comes off. She's like, I don't know what to say. And he goes, my people are working on the problem. I'm sure they'll fix it eventually. I didn't mean to upset you this morning. I just didn't want anyone. Well, I didn't want you to see me this way. And so then he, like, they have this moment of, you know, supposed connection. She talks about how he's an actual hero and the vampire thing is kind of sexy. And he's all like, yeah, it sounds good, but that's not how I feel. And she's like, I know. That's what I like about you. And then she says, I. Or he says, I'm not very good at any of this. And then he, like, sighs and turns away. And as he's, like, going on this thing about. I've spent so much time worrying about the past and the future, my very complicated life. And, you know, I'm working on it. I'm paying better attention. Then all of a sudden, we hear his growl. And this dog's. Paul just rips angel into the cage.
[01:17:38] Speaker B: Like, no, Nina.
[01:17:41] Speaker A: And we just hear, like, fabric ripping.
And then we cut to. This was my favorite scene. The hallway. Lauren's walking toward his office. He hears angel, and he sees little puppet angel holding all his stuffing.
[01:17:55] Speaker B: And the music. The music is so dramatic.
[01:17:57] Speaker D: My little prince.
[01:18:00] Speaker A: And he's like, what did they do to you? And he, like, lifts him up, and he's like, we need a medic. Medic. He's like, you're gonna make an angel. Don't stop fighting. Is there a Geppetto in the house?
So dramatic.
Meanwhile, Angel's, like, dying.
[01:18:16] Speaker B: It's like Shakespeare.
[01:18:17] Speaker A: So funny.
[01:18:19] Speaker D: Kate, I have a question, though.
[01:18:22] Speaker B: Yes?
[01:18:22] Speaker D: Like, is this amazing? It is. Absolutely. I don't need you to answer that. What I need to know is, is angel gonna be a werewolf now? A puppet werewolf? Because he got bit by Nina.
[01:18:33] Speaker B: Oh, that's Such a good question.
[01:18:37] Speaker D: And also, can cursed vampires be cursed again and become werewolf vampires?
[01:18:44] Speaker A: A werewolf.
[01:18:45] Speaker B: Vampire Diary month.
[01:18:47] Speaker A: Oh, no. This poor man cannot win.
[01:18:51] Speaker D: Can you imagine?
[01:18:52] Speaker A: He turns into a vampire. Maybe.
[01:18:56] Speaker B: The demon from the werewolf will cancel out Angelus, and then it'll just be Angel.
[01:19:02] Speaker C: But I don't think werewolves have demons in them. Right? I think werewolf is a. A physiological.
[01:19:07] Speaker B: Or the demon.
[01:19:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:19:09] Speaker B: No, but Oz says that there's a demon inside of him that he has to tame.
[01:19:13] Speaker C: I think he was speaking metaphorically.
[01:19:15] Speaker D: I don't think Oz knew anything. He was just making shit up.
[01:19:18] Speaker B: He's like, I gotta get the fuck out of Sunnydale.
[01:19:21] Speaker D: Yeah, it's just excuses to sleep with Veronica. No, Veruca Veronica. So I wonder if him being a puppet stopped the curse from transferring over to him. But this is the first thing I thought of when I saw his little body lying there with all the. All the fluff around him. I was like, is he gonna be a werewolf now?
[01:19:41] Speaker A: He turns into a puppet three nights out of the month?
[01:19:44] Speaker B: Maybe.
[01:19:48] Speaker A: Could you imagine?
[01:19:49] Speaker C: You're right.
You're right, Leia. I think this is a plot hole that's never addressed in the episode. They should have at least hung a lampshade on it and mentioned something.
[01:19:58] Speaker B: Okay, but maybe. Maybe it's because there's no blood in just felt. So.
[01:20:03] Speaker A: Yeah, there's no transference.
[01:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there's no transference.
[01:20:06] Speaker A: Or maybe it's the same thing as the Dark Age, where Angelus inside of angel fought off the werewolf demon, kicked it out, wouldn't let it come in and take over.
[01:20:17] Speaker B: So Ellis is having a terrible fucking.
[01:20:19] Speaker A: Angelus is like, this is the worst. I can't believe I'm a puppet. And now I have to fight off somebody else who's trying to take over my body. Get out.
[01:20:29] Speaker D: And Jazz is like, none of this would have happened if you just let.
[01:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I were in charge. Things would be happening.
[01:20:34] Speaker B: Seriously.
[01:20:35] Speaker A: And not this. All right, so now we're in the doctor's office, the same eerie doctor's office, where Gun first got his brain enhancement procedure. This actor is so creepy. And he's going. He's, like, working on another patient, but then in comes Gun. And Gun is like, hey, something's wrong with my implant that you gave me. The doctor's like, well, I doubt that, but let's take a look. And then he looks at his eye and says, the impression imprint is. Is fading. Your neural path modification is almost completely reverted. Gun says, I'm losing it. The law. The language is the strategy. And the Doctor's like, oh, it must be sheer torture, like, making fun of him. And guns like, we'll fix it. Put it back. And the Doctor says, you can't. You can't cover what I charge. And he says, you were given that upgrade because the senior partners wanted you to have it. And if you're losing it, well, they wanted that too. And Gun's like, well, why would they do that? The Doctor says, you never know with them. Guns. Like, I can't lose this. These powers, the skill they've changed me, given me. And the Doctor says, meaning. And to have it taken away, it's heartbreaking. And then he basically says, I'll give it back to you, basically, if you get rid of some red tape for some shipments that I have that are being stuck at customs. And guns like drugs. And the Doctor says, no, just an ancient curio, a collectible I hope to turn a profit on. If I was to give you the permanent upgrade, I'd say that. That. I'd say that you'd be more than able to cut through all of my red tape problems. Guns like, I don't make deals with people like you. And the Doctor says, and believe me, Charles, I don't make deals with people like you. Not the person you really are, the ignorant street muscle, the high school dropout. I would, however, love to make a deal with Charles Gun, attorney at law. Oh, he just plays him like a. Right.
[01:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, shut the hell up. Bald guy. Is he even bald? I don't even remember.
[01:22:20] Speaker A: I don't remember. I just remember his creepy smile.
[01:22:22] Speaker C: He's balding.
[01:22:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[01:22:25] Speaker A: Even worse.
[01:22:27] Speaker C: Yeah, but you're absolutely right, Sarah. And like, this scene is just masterful in the way that Gun gets manipulated.
And we've been very critical of some of the inconsistencies of characterization so far. But I feel like this is very true to Gun's character as much as there is the stereotyping going on of. Of, you know, Gunn being this street smart guy who, like, is coming up from the streets and wants to better himself or whatever.
That has been Gunn's character. You know, a lot of what he's done in the show has been him trying to prove himself to other people, trying to prove himself, whether it's as a leader of his crew, as a member of Angel Investigations, you know, finding his place here at Wolfram and Hart this season. It makes so much sense that he accepted, as Leia pointed out, he's. He's got a history of the deals and Stuff.
So, yeah, I love this scene because the way that it fits together in the jigsaw puzzle of what is to come is beautiful.
[01:23:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense.
[01:23:37] Speaker B: It's a really important scene.
[01:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah, we've seen this. We've seen Gun making a lot of compromises this season and a lot of justification for being at Wolfram and Hart and having this implant inside of his head. Because they've also done a really good job of showing all the good that Gun is able to do with it. And basically the next scene with him in it, he instantly comes up with the way to save the kids and all that stuff. And you can tell he is doing this, obviously, because he feels like just Gun Street Gun is not enough, but also because he truly cares about helping people. And he feels like this is the best and most effective way of doing it. And that makes her a really interesting and compelling character.
And the decisions that they make. So.
[01:24:19] Speaker B: And I really enjoy that because I. You know, we talked about this a lot in season four where Gun was becoming really disillusioned with the mission because they really weren't doing the mission because they were so caught up with all the drama of their lives. And this is Gun's way. I think the reason that he was kind of. He's the biggest proponent of like, staying at Wolfram and Hart and wanting to do this and like, being really into the. The mojo that they did on his brain is because, like you said, Sarah, he feels like he's actually doing something tangible. Whereas last season, and even in season three, Gun was just kind of hanging around cleaning up other people's messes.
[01:24:58] Speaker A: And he just got tired of that.
[01:25:00] Speaker B: And he got tired of it. Yeah.
[01:25:01] Speaker C: And it also accurately captures a common trajectory that we see in the real world where you have people who fight the power on the ground. They don't have a lot of institutional or academic credentials. And when they gain access to more formalized academic or institutional spaces and get, you know, accreditation, whether it's legitimate or not, a lot of them start to think, well, this is a better way of fighting that fight. Right. And they become lawyers or they become politicians. And, you know, some of them do make positive change, but some of them, as a result, become very disillusioned with the struggle because they realize that the systems that they've been railing against are incredibly difficult to dismantle. Not just because of the power that their opponents have, but because even the so called good guys that they're working alongside are.
It's really hard to get them to care about actually dismantling the system because.
[01:26:08] Speaker A: They benefit from it so much too.
[01:26:10] Speaker B: And that's so relevant for this season as a whole, what you just described, like, completely.
[01:26:16] Speaker A: And it's hard not to empathize and sympathize with Gun's position. And it's. I mean, we still hold him accountable because what he's doing, you know, eventually is not the greatest and the wisest. But it's hard not to, like, fully blame him because the system is set up so much. He feels like he has to try harder in a lot of ways. Place.
So. All right, so now we're in the science lab, and Smile time's playing on the tv, and Wesley and Fred are watching, and they're like, you know, this is, you know, starting to grow on us. Knox walks in with two coffees, but only hands one to Fred and then keeps the other one for himself. And then he sees Wesley looking at his coffee. He's like, oh, I'm sorry. Did you want. And basically the entire point of this scene is to show that Knox is noticing that Fred is acting differently around Wesley in a way that she doesn't act around him and kind of him confirming, okay, the relationship is over. And Fred basically trying to send out even harder signals for Wesley. He's not getting it. They, like, share their coffee at one point. And then Wesley notices a pattern. And he turns the TV back up, and he's like. He sees that there's a little moment where Polo has his hands pressed against the screen. And then all of a sudden, he's like. Cut back to singing with the other puppies. Puppets.
Yes, exactly. Cara's acting it out for us, miming for us. And they're like, oh, shoot, that's. That looks like they're. The act of singing is some sort of cloaking device. And so they're like, okay, we need to. We need to tell Angel. So then back at Angel's office, he's sitting at his desk. He's using a needle and thread to sew up his torn jacket.
He's like, stupid fingers, stupid string. And then Wes and Fred walk in, and they're like, it's all in the broadcast. Some very nuanced magic, but we found it finally. Fred's like, angel, what happened? There's, like, claw marks now across Angel's face. He's like, nothing. It's not important. Doesn't matter. Go on. And then they say that it's a hidden carrier, was masked by a spell that turns the TV into two way Conduit with direct access to the viewer. And they're like, Ramkin's ready to take out the whole audience. And they're like the object. The egg that you saw in the secret room is probably the thing that holds all the children's life force, which means that we should free the children and we can reverse the puppet problem. And angel gets so excited, he, like, jumps up and then just rushes to hug Fred with his cute, happy hug. He's like, I love you guys.
[01:28:38] Speaker C: This is probably the only time that angel has hugged Fred right like that. It must be such a strange experience, not just because he's a puppet, but because Angel's not a hugger.
[01:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he kissed Fred in season four right on the mouth.
[01:28:54] Speaker A: That's very different, though.
[01:28:56] Speaker B: Right on the left. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
[01:29:00] Speaker A: Fred's kicks kissed every single man on this team except for Lauren.
[01:29:04] Speaker C: Good for her.
[01:29:05] Speaker A: Good for her.
[01:29:06] Speaker C: Wouldn't want that for me, but good for her.
[01:29:08] Speaker D: Wow. Yeah. Real nice.
[01:29:10] Speaker A: Car is like, we're gonna take this. Positively jealous.
[01:29:16] Speaker D: What a queen.
[01:29:17] Speaker A: Then Gun. What a queen. Then gun comes in, is like, hey, no, it's actually the puppets. They're the demons. The show is possessed. And then he says that Framkin made a deal with some devils. And Wesley's like, you sure of that? And guns, like, dead sure. Every contract signed with Lower Plains is filed in the Library of Demonic Congress. You just got to know where to look. Pretty trippy. Legalese. Legalese. Legales, Whatever. Framkin must have missed some of the fine print again. Having guns swoop in to save the day with his new knowledge and saving the children. It's like, we know this is headed down a bad path, but it's also like, oh, he's saving children. So then Angel's like, all right, guys, we've got to do this. He grabs his sword off the wall and says, let's take out some puppets. We get this power shot with the double doors opening. We see Fred and Gun and Wesley. And then we pan down, and there's angel, the puppet with this massive sword behind his head on his shoulders. So good.
So then we see a little girl sitting in her beanbag chair. Her name is Hannah. Fun fact. This actress played Sarah Harris, Young Xander and Anya, their little daughter in Hell's Bells. So she just had, like, the little ears on and everything.
So we see her watching the show again. The same thing happens with Tommy. And she goes to touch the TV and the puppet gets interrupted because angel is in the studio with carrying the sword. He says, it's time to kick your ass all the way back to hell. Polo Puppets like, yeah, do. Angel swings his sword, lets out a primal yell as he leaps towards Polo and then they end up fighting. I love that that you have that moment. I think it was Gun that grabbed one of the puppets, the girl puppet, and like slams her against the tv. But you see it from like the kids point of view and like slides down the tv. So funny.
[01:31:07] Speaker C: The only thing that would have made this better is if they had licensed Guns n Roses.
[01:31:12] Speaker B: Welcome to the jungle.
[01:31:19] Speaker A: That would have been so funny.
[01:31:20] Speaker B: Does God also behead a puppet?
[01:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah, he does.
Ratio.
[01:31:24] Speaker D: Oh my God.
[01:31:25] Speaker B: Rip.
[01:31:26] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:31:26] Speaker C: No, not Ratio.
He beheads Gruffus.
[01:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Gruffico. Yes.
[01:31:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:31:31] Speaker C: He's sent to protect the nest egg and he waddles away, honking his horn with each step.
[01:31:37] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. To the egg.
[01:31:42] Speaker A: So in the room with the nest egg, Wes and Fred show up. Wesley starts to chant. The eye opens. Wesley, don't look at the eye to Fred. The purple puppet shows up and chokes Wes and he yells for Fred to keep reading. Back in the studio, the girl puppet attacks Gun. She's like, give me those pretty eyes.
[01:31:57] Speaker D: Oh, I love that. Okay. When they had their little puppet meeting before, we were saying it was very sinister. It was very eerie to see this coming from puppets. She wasn't actually part of that conversation, really. She was as. She was. She was to me at that point, she was still very much just like a. A puppet of a kids show who happened to be part of this conversation. But then all of a sudden, the claw changes. Yeah, she's like, give me those pretty little eyes. And I thought I like, I cackled. I'm like, oh my God, that is so funny and so scary. I'm obsessed. Like, she's the scariest one at this point.
[01:32:32] Speaker A: She really was. And they, they had to make her super scary cuz Gun just like wails on her and we see her like arm dismembered and stuffing everywhere.
[01:32:44] Speaker B: So funny.
[01:32:45] Speaker A: So then back in the studio, the.
Oh yeah. This is when we see Gun throw the girl puppet at the tv and she slides down. So funny. Then back at the eye, Fred is reading the spell while Wes is being manhandled by the purple puppet. Just, absolutely. Just being kicked. Yeah, he has. No. He has. I just find it funny that the puppet's so much stronger than he is. And then just when the puppet's about to do Wes in with the fire extinguisher, Fred shoots.
[01:33:09] Speaker C: It's going on in the background. It's so hilarious. Yes.
[01:33:12] Speaker A: They're stuffing going flying and eyes popping out. She, like, hits his squeaker and we just see it, like, blowing out. And I was like, aw, it must be true love. They would kill for each other. They would shoot someone for each other. And I love how this is supposed to be, like, this big moment.
It, like, is very clear.
[01:33:29] Speaker D: It's like the way his, like the inside of whatever he's made of shoots out. Like, it's supposed to be blood shooting out onto Wesley, but it's like popcorn. Like the little, like.
[01:33:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:33:40] Speaker D: Like that is. That is imagery that they didn't have to do, but they did it.
[01:33:46] Speaker A: They made this so graphic and it's funny.
[01:33:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:33:50] Speaker A: Yes. And I love how this is supposed to be, like, this big moment where the gang has done worse for each other. You know, it's. Yeah. And then at the studio, Polo is taunting angel, saying he'll tear him a new puppet hole until angel gets the upper hand. Polo's like, so you got some demon in you? And Angel's like, I got a lot of demon in me. And then he vamps out.
I love that they did the actual trans transition that they would do if he was human. Oh, so funny.
[01:34:16] Speaker B: I actually, I made a gift set on Tumblr of. It was for, like, a Vamp Vampire Appreciation Week. And I picked angel as my favorite vampire. And I did a gift set of, like, all of the time. Not all of the times, but different times where he shifts into the vampire phase. And I included the Muppet one. And people were loving it. They're like, thank you so much for including the Muppet. Like, it's perfect. And I'm like, of course. Like, why would I not?
[01:34:42] Speaker A: This is, you have to.
[01:34:44] Speaker C: The most millennial thing I've ever heard.
[01:34:46] Speaker A: You say, making a gift set on Tumblr.
[01:34:50] Speaker C: I'm proud of you.
[01:34:51] Speaker B: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
[01:34:53] Speaker A: Single handedly keeping it alive with the Buffy fandom over here. So then angel ends up throwing Polo through the wooden treehouse. And we're like, oh, he's dead. Dead. I love that you just see the puppet body just, like, flopping so good.
[01:35:06] Speaker D: It's like they clearly just recorded, like, an actual puppet.
[01:35:10] Speaker A: Exactly right.
[01:35:12] Speaker D: And, like, going limp. Yeah.
[01:35:14] Speaker A: Yep. So then Fred, it finishes chanting while Wes pops the purple puppet squeaker. Yeah. And then angel dusts himself off, and Gun looks up from the stuffing and pieces of the girl puppet. Fred's chanting causes the eye to explode. And then the little girl, Hannah, and all the other kids go Back to normal. And then back at Wolfram and Hart, we see Nina awakening amidst the rubble of puppet fluff. And she's like, oh, my God, I ate him.
Then angel comes in, still a puppet, and tells her that he's fine and then he'll change back in two to three days tops. He gathers his courage and asks her what she's doing for breakfast. She's like, what do puppets eat? And he's like, let's find out. And he grabs her hand and then they, like, go off. And if you guys are curious to know how the date went, apparently there's a non canon story that was written about a date between angel and Nina. And I think he's still a puppet, actually. It's called misdeeding.
[01:36:01] Speaker B: Like a fan fiction?
[01:36:02] Speaker A: No, it's, like, written by writer for.
[01:36:06] Speaker B: Like, a novelized novelization or whatever.
[01:36:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:36:08] Speaker B: What happens on the date?
[01:36:10] Speaker A: I did not look it up. So you guys will have to go find out.
[01:36:13] Speaker D: Who cares? Nina.
[01:36:17] Speaker A: Leia will read it, report back.
[01:36:18] Speaker B: They probably ate some oatmeal. Some bland, dry oatmeal.
[01:36:22] Speaker A: No, no, no.
[01:36:24] Speaker B: Had to go straight white milk.
[01:36:26] Speaker A: Nina had to go get a high chair. One of those, like, restaurant ones that you had to get for him because he couldn't get to the top of the table without help.
[01:36:37] Speaker B: All right. Angel ate some felt.
[01:36:39] Speaker A: Some felt. He just sat there and licked his lips while Nina was eating food.
All right, so in Wes's office, which. Okay, what was up with Wes dressing like either a boat captain or some sort of cartoon supervillain with these turtlenecks? It looked horrendous. He is dressed. Dressed so impeccably this season. But then all of a sudden, I'm like, who are you, someone's grandpa? Like, come on.
[01:37:01] Speaker C: That was his. That was his tactical turtleneck.
[01:37:05] Speaker A: Oh, tactical, Okay.
[01:37:07] Speaker C: I was. I was hoping somebody would get that reference.
[01:37:09] Speaker A: He just needs a eye patch and then a ginormous.
What is it? Not cigar. Cigar. It was a pipe. He just needs a pipe. And then, you know, he could be a boat captain.
[01:37:21] Speaker D: So Wesley gives off a very, like, feminine vibe. And when he wears these kind of clothes, it's that slightly like what I'm getting.
[01:37:28] Speaker A: This is why he's not getting friends.
[01:37:30] Speaker D: With that at all.
Yeah, I'm like, maybe he's gay.
[01:37:37] Speaker A: All right. Fred comes in and she's like, all the kids are coming out of their stasis. He's like, I think we did some good work. And she's continuing to give him, like, massive signals while he's like, well, I guess we should rest. Fred physically blocks his way and is like, you're just going to go, aren't you? Haven't you been sensing anything lately about me? And he. He looks so confused. She's like, didn't occur to you that something might have changed? That I'm looking at you in a different. And he just stands there dumbly. And Fred's like, oh, screw it. She kisses him. I do have to say this was a good kiss. This is a very good kiss between them. And Fred is like, that was a signal. Okay. Is that clear enough for you? Wesley finally finds his head in his composure, goes in for another kiss and says, not even close. And we end on the self esteem. Self esteem. Soft.
[01:38:24] Speaker B: Well, damn. It's happening.
[01:38:26] Speaker A: It's happening.
[01:38:27] Speaker B: It's been 531 for them.
[01:38:32] Speaker A: We'll let them have their moment.
[01:38:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's all we'll ever be.
[01:38:36] Speaker C: What could possibly go wrong?
[01:38:38] Speaker B: Nothing.
[01:38:38] Speaker C: Of course, everybody gets a happy ending in the show, right?
[01:38:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[01:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. If I had never seen this show before, I would be like, oh, my gosh. As soon as they got together, I'd be like, what's going to happen? Because this happened too fast. There's no way in the middle of the season they'd have these two characters get together unless they do something else. Yeah, yeah.
[01:38:58] Speaker C: Nobody in the Buffy verse can be in a happy, fulfilling relationship.
[01:39:01] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
[01:39:02] Speaker C: Wesley was like 99.999% ad infinitum.
Accept, you know, acceptable happiness. It's like, not in Joss Whedon's world, because that percentage is zero.
[01:39:12] Speaker A: They would take acceptable happiness over pretty much anything at this point. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that was smile time. Thanks so much for joining us, you guys. You made it so much more fun. All smiles, everyone. Go listen to Prophecy Girls, you guys, by the time this airs. Well, season two. When are you guys dropping season two?
[01:39:32] Speaker C: We haven't decided yet.
[01:39:33] Speaker A: You haven't decided. Okay. Well, go listen to season one.
[01:39:36] Speaker C: Season one is finished. Season one is out now. We are currently recording season two.
Yeah. For anybody who's listening who hasn't heard us on Investigating angel before, we've got a complete Buffy Rewatch podcast out there for you. And then we're doing Angel a little bit differently. Right. So you get some different takes.
Yeah. Prophecy Girls podcast wherever you like. Our podcasts follow us on Instagram because Steph does amazing content for social media.
[01:40:04] Speaker A: She does.
[01:40:05] Speaker C: And as always, Social media queen. It's such a lovely time getting to Come on. Investigate Angel. And talking with both you, Sarah and Leia, you are so funny and so insightful and just like. Like, every time I come here, every time Steph and I get to be here, it's just such a good time.
[01:40:23] Speaker A: Good. Well, we always have so much fun with you guys. And I guess this is the last time you guys are going to be coming on for Investigating Angel.
[01:40:30] Speaker B: You guys are also our only guests for this season.
[01:40:33] Speaker C: Really?
[01:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:40:36] Speaker A: You guys made your special top tier.
[01:40:38] Speaker B: You guys. You guys made the list.
You are the last exclusive list.
[01:40:43] Speaker D: Well, I'm not surprised.
[01:40:44] Speaker B: Exclusive. Him.
[01:40:49] Speaker D: We'll have you guys on to eventually.
[01:40:52] Speaker A: Yeah, have us on anytime. Always. Always, anytime. But, yeah, we'll keep you guys in mind for any future projects. Wink, wink. Leia's like, wait, what? What?
[01:41:03] Speaker D: What?
[01:41:03] Speaker B: What are you talking about?
[01:41:04] Speaker A: I didn't say anything. Anyway. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us at investigatingangelpodcast@gmail com.
