Show Notes
When an ancient sarcophagus exhales on her, Fred is at death's door. Angel and his friends need to figure out what's wrong with her if they are to save her.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you.
Hey guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode 15, a hole in the World. Written and directed by Joss Whedon. Aired February 25, 2004 all right, Leia, thoughts on this very big episode?
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Huge episode.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: This huge episode.
Yeah.
Yeah. What do you think? Thoughts? Tell me.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: It was brutal. What do you mean?
[00:01:03] Speaker A: I know, I know.
It is brutal.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: I think it's a great episode. I think the acting is really great. I think.
I don't know. I have such mixed feelings because there were parts of it that made me really angry on Fred's behalf, but then there were other parts that I really appreciated. Like the technical parts of it, I really appreciated.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: How fast paced it was, how you could feel the doom, you could feel the anticipation.
I thought the acting was really great, especially Alexis and Amy. It felt like a really, like self contained story too, which I really liked.
But at the same time, it just all happened so fast. And that was probably the most brutal death in the entire Buffyverse. It was excruciating to watch and I feel like a lot of it was very, I want to say, like, not in service of Fred's character. Like, I just feel like it's.
I just have such mixed feelings. But yeah, we'll talk through them, I guess. But I mean, it's. It's a great episode.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Like we've talked about it. I think this has been like my number one most dreaded episode to talk about. I keep saying, oh, we have the whole hole in the world coming or whatever. Just because, like it's.
It's so funny because I think the first time I saw this episode, I really liked it and I. I think that there's something about Joss Whedon's writing and directing that pulls you in. Like he. He's such a dynamic filmmaker and his writing is snappy and it just. It's very hard to look away from his episodes.
And like you said, like, the tension and everything is really good and I just find myself disliking it more and more with each rewatch. And I think this is one of those episodes that like, the first time you watch it, it's such a shock that you aren't able to like fully process it all. But then as you're watching in subsequent re watches, you're anticipating it and it almost becomes like, I'm sure people who have experienced a death in the family, like, this is how they feel about the body.
That, for me, is not a very personal thing as of now, but I could imagine very much that it would be that, you know, Fred dying in the hole in the world is super personal, but to me, because we're actually watching Fred dying, there's such. And it. I hate to use this word, but I. I think it is kind of applicable, but it's almost gratuitous in a lot of ways. And so it did feel that way. Yeah. And so the first time I'm watching it, I'm like, wow, this is emotional. And you keep thinking, Fred's going to pull through, and it's just, like, really hard. But I find myself on these re. Watches when I. When I go back seeing all of them. Like, the Discord said this, and I. I agree. Like, little bits of manipulation, and it's like, there's some. And I said this on the Discord. There's something like. In contrast to the body, which I think would be the closest Buffy verse equivalent, the body. There's something so achingly raw and honest and authentic about it that. And it's more focused on grief than the actual. Like, we're gonna sit there as Joyce is dying versus this episode didn't feel very authentic to me. And I think that's the thing that's really hard. I think I can see through the cracks to Joss over there. I think I said on the Discord, gleefully, like, rubbing his hands together, being like, I'm gonna cause people so much pain and misery and for what Wesley.
And it's not for Fred. And it's just. It's sad to watch Winifred Burkle die this way. And it's just another female character, another female character dying. Another female character being taken over by another entity.
And we have to sit there and suffer and watch Wesley suffer.
And it's for the. It's at the hands of Joss Whedon for a female character. And so it just.
It's just hard. It feels manipulative.
Yeah.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: I think when I compare this to the body. The body. And I don't know if this is because I'm a woman, and this is, like, a common complaint that I've had about the show since the very beginning, but it's like every female centric character is not about the woman at all. It's about how the guys help her, how she's the damsel.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: There was so much of that.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: This episode, there was so much. It was just ridiculous down to the dialogue. It was a lot. It was crazy.
And I just feel like maybe in comparison to the body, which is obviously on a show that's protagonist is a. Is a woman and you see things through her eyes, it just felt more like it was focusing on Buffy's grief. Right. It was focusing on the grief that was happening. This episode just felt like the boys club that this show is.
It felt like Fred's in danger and all of the boys are gonna come and save her. And I just, like. Even the scene where she gets up and tries to do something felt very.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. No, I did not like that scene. It was very damsel in distress.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: I could see what. Like, that they were trying to be like, oh, but look, like Fred has agency and she wants to, like, save herself.
But then it just.
It just doesn't work. Like, it just feels. It feels like that scene in Avengers where all the females.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Get.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Together, and they're just like, girl power.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Performative feminism.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: And then she just goes back. She just, like, falls into Wesley's arms, and I just.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: It was ex. It was excruciating to watch. Like, there's.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: It was layers to it. And I think, again, it is hard because we do. Like, all the stuff with Joss Whedon has come out. Like, I haven't watched this since all of that. And so, like, I.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: That wasn't even something that was in my mind. It often isn't, to be honest, when I'm watching these shows. Like, I don't really think about Joss Whedon. What was in my mind was that we had to watch Cordelia get violated and killed in, like, a horrific way. We had to watch Darla get violated and killed, which, like, Darla's a slightly different story. But it's kind of the same idea of, like, she gets pregnant against her will. Like, not against her will, but she gets pregnant and it's a thing that. It's a baby that she doesn't want, and then she has to give birth to it. And as a result, she dies. And it's like, this is happening again.
And this came, like, out of nowhere. Like, the Darla and the Cordelia stuff, I feel like, was happening over the course of, you know, a season or several seasons where you could almost like, prepare yourself so that when they did die, it was like, okay. Like, almost like, finally, like.
I don't know if that's even the right word, but this was just so sudden.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I think what makes it really hard, too, is the fact that there hasn't been very much done with Fred both this season and last.
It just feels like a lot of missed potential. It feels like Fred's story was nowhere near done. Like, we barely have explored anything about her. And it's also like, you know. You know, I've talked about how a lot of her characterization has been done in service of the men around her, specifically Wesley, and this is just continuation of that. So, yeah, it's just. It's hard. But. But like you said, it's also a technically really interesting episode to watch. The acting is phenomenal. The score is beautiful. The way it's shot is beautiful. Like, the sets, I mean.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: Everything. So it's just like, it's. It's hard to hate it.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard to hate it. And, like, I also do want to point out that, like, Amy Acker, as an actress, I'm sure, was very excited about doing this episode.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: And very excited about Illyria, about getting to be Illyria. And that's something that.
Right. I appreciate because I like the character. I love that she gets to do that, because I would imagine for an actor, it would be such a fun day at work to come in and put that blue makeup on and just completely transform yourself. And it just.
I can't completely hate it because I know that Amy Acker probably had a great time making this for us.
So there's that also.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I mean, it probably did amazing things for her career, too, to be able to play something so versatile. I know she's talked about how it has opened the door for her to be able to play a lot of villain roles because of that.
So, yeah, it's hard because I really like the storyline of Illyria, and they do so much with Illyria this season that it's kind of like, yeah, I'll talk about it in a second. But, yeah. Yeah, just a lot. A lot of mixed feelings. And. Yeah. Yeah, it's complicated, but.
All right. So this is the final episode in the Buffyverse to be written and directed solely by Joss Whedon, which is crazy. Joss originally intended for Giles to appear, as he needed a character who would be instantly believed by both the characters and the audience when he said there was no way to save Fred, but it would have been too expensive to fly in Tony head to guest star. As a result, the character of Dragan was created. And to ensure that he was believed by the audience, it is stated by angel that it is impossible for him to lie, which is really interesting.
Joss explains, I thought it'd be really funny to kill Amy. He and the other writers decided to kill the character of Fred so that Amy Acker could play somebody new, somebody who's regal and scary and different than anything she's gotten to do on the show. The best way to do that, of course, is to kill her and have her become somebody else. And that's what I mean by, like, when I say it's hard not to see Joss Whedon in. That is.
I say gleeful malevolence, because Joss really, really enjoys killing characters and making the audience suffer and making the actors suffer. And so when he's like, it's funny, I. I think there's sometimes this. This intentional forgetfulness that he has, because he has selective forgetfulness, and he is selective when it comes to his outrage and his. The way he feels about things. But I think there's this intentional forgetfulness about the fact that there's real people out here who care about these characters. And this is also, like, one of the only female representations on the show, so.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: But I would also argue if Joss Whedon's shows weren't how they were, would we still be talking about them today?
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah. You mean they're so toxic.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, they are. They are.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Like, I feel like the reason that a lot of us get so attached to these characters is because they suffer so much. Like, you feel so much for them.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: And, yeah, I just. I just. I'm trying to think if, like, a lot of the stuff that we. That make us uncomfortable about these shows hadn't happened, would we still be as invested in talking about, like, even just talking about how we would do things differently in hindsight. You know what I mean?
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Potentially. Because I would say. I think a lot of writers, both for books and TV shows and movies, are too afraid to kill off characters, are too afraid to take gutsy. Take their characters to, like, darker places and stuff for the sake of a story, which is something that Joss obviously has no problem. But maybe because there's that lack of a filter, he takes things too far.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: You know, I don't know for sure. If I ever become a writer, I'm gonna kill characters with gusto. My goodness. So you guys have been warned.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: That's a threat. No, I'm just kidding. No, but, like, there is nothing better than a good character death that does so nobly or does so at the right moment. And it's like everybody wants that person back. Like, I think of like Hunger Games, everybody wants Finnick back. But it's because it was. It would not be as satisfying if that person was resurrected or we suddenly found out that they were not alive.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Two deaths were really satisfying.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Really satisfying.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: And she's the main character.
Like, that's crazy that you can kill your main character twice and make both times feel.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: And you expect her to die at the series finale and she doesn't, and you're like, whoa. Yeah, but imagine like, Jenny comes back.
What in the world? No, you know, like, I just. I think that there are different things that. Yeah, it would. It wouldn't. It wouldn't mean as much. But maybe Joss missing that extra filter that causes him to be able to cause so much pain in a good way also makes him cause pain in a bad way too. I don't know.
I don't know.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: I love this. Like, you brought up Avengers.
So after a draining day of shooting the scene in which Fred dies, Joss, Amy and Alexis went out for a drink and just sat silently. And Whedon would later use this moment as an inspiration for the post credit scene for Avengers in which shawarma scene. Eat shawarma.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: I've heard that. I just wasn't sure which scene it was.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: That's funny from the first one, which is really, really funny. So I. I went on Buffy Wiki to kind of like refresh myself on what they were talking about with the Old Ones, because there's a lot of talk about that in this episode. And they had some really interesting things, just kind of like a refresher for everyone. So they talk about how the Old Ones were purebred demons that dominated the Earth during the Primordium Age.
The Old Ones were brought forth from another, more horrific dimension during the creation of Earth. Through the Seed of Wonder, they shared the Earth with fellow higher beings, which would become known as the Powers that Be. The rise of the Old Ones led the Powers to flee the world, while the demons became rulers of vast territories, commanded enormous armies that worshiped them as deities, and constantly made war against each other, turning Earth into Hell, basically. Then the Old Ones eventually lost their claim over Earth. So some were killed in their own wars, while others either fled or were banished to other dimensions. It was widely believed that the rise of humankind was responsible for the demise of the Old Ones. Those who were killed were placed in sarcophagi which were hidden at the deeper well, a hole in the world running between England and New Zealand. The remains of the Old Ones were supposed to be kept there in order to prevent their resurrection, as not only their corpses, but also their essences were trapped. According to the Last Guardian, at the end of Buffy season seven, the Scythe was created to kill the last Old One to walk the Earth. The vampire book that Giles like plops on Buffy's on the desk when in welcome to the Hellmouth, it reported that the last pure demon to leave Earth infected a human with its blood, creating the first vampire. So these guys. Yeah. So when Xander taps into. Well, I guess this is getting into the comics, so we won't talk about that. But the demons that remained on Earth were forced to remain hidden and breed with mortal animals, creating weaker offspring as time went on. So then you end up having, like, the really, really weak vampires, but that's why you had, like, the Turacan and those other ones. Giles talks about how they used to be really, really prevalent, but then, over time, kind of died off. But obviously the first found some way of creating them again.
And then they're talking about how the legacy of the Old Ones remain, not only in the forms of the hundreds of demon species, but also in the form of cults that worship them, awaiting their return to bring about the destruction of mankind. That's how you get the Order of Aurelius, led by the vampire known as the Master, and Illyria's cult, of which Nox was a follower.
And then mortal beings could even take on the physical form of an Old One through a complicated ritual known as the Ascension, which is the Mayor.
They could also be reborn in mortal bodies, killing the hosts in the process.
Illyria was obviously resurrected in a human body in 2004 and stuff, but. Yeah. And each Old One had different forms and powers. What they all shared in common was their enormous size. They could shape shift, become as big as they wish to be the Mayor. They were also vastly more powerful than even the strongest hybrid demon races that walked the Earth.
And the Old Ones were immortal in the sense that they could never be completely destroyed. Even if their bodies had perished, their essence lived on, and they could find ways to come back into being, which is how we have Illyria. So isn't that interesting?
[00:17:19] Speaker B: What a nice bit of lore.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Everything's all connected.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: It is. And it's really, really fun, because I think that's one of, like, the best parts of this episode, is how it, like, builds on top of the lore that we've already known, because. Yeah.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: What about more in the next episode too.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we do. But yeah, I think it's really fascinating because it's like, yeah, what about these Old Ones? And like, there's hints that like, the Master was. That's what he was trying to do is either raise them or become an old One.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Interesting. I love that.
So they're like the. Like the.
The originals from Vampire Diaries.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And they were the ones that drove the Powers that Be out of Earth.
Yeah.
So very fascinating.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: So where are the Powers that Be now?
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Another dimension, I think. I think they're in another dimension. Yeah.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I did too. I, like, looked it up and I was like, this is really fascinating. And I didn't. It's sometimes hard to, like, piece it together. So it was nice to see it all in one place and. Yeah.
So, you know, critically touched says this about the episode because, you know, this point's a staple.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Sarah reading Critically touched for 56 hours.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Like, exactly, says there's probably someone's gonna go one of these days in like time. The amount of times I've read critically touched and compile it all till the very end. But they. They have the things. So here we go. They said. Even though the episode is about her, Fred herself isn't served well by this story. She's always been an underused and underdeveloped character, used mostly to provide a convenient point of conflict for Wesley and to. To serve as the object to be fought over in two separate love triangles. She has her moments, to be sure. In episodes like Billy, Super Symmetry and the Magic Bullet, we saw glimpses of a far more fascinating character who is actually showing the scars of her five year ordeal of slavery and fugitive life in Pilea. Regrettably, A Hole in the World shows no such glimpse. Instead, we get more of the fret of season five. Universally beloved and largely inactive. Not even Amy Acker's amazing performance can conceal it. This is 30 minutes of her suffering and dying. Fred vomiting blood all over Wesley. Fred suffering horrible pains. All of the guys comforting Fred in her hospital bed and trying to outdo one another in their determination to save her. Fred being hollowed out from the inside. Fred used as a vessel for the birth of an ancient God. Fred crying on her deathbed with a devastated Wesley comforting her. Fred insisting, I am not a damsel in distress during an hour that is nothing less than the pure distillation of the damsel in distress storyline at its most tragic. Note how none of this says much about Fred. Fred. Note how none of this is the result of anything Fred did or any choice she made beyond curiosity in touching a magic box, there is nothing she could have done to avoid it. It is heartbreaking to watch, but I find it very unsatisfying. As a matter of personal taste. I also dislike the extent to which the camera dwells on Fred's suffering. It makes me feel almost voyeuristic.
Another thing I find peculiar about this, although it does not necessarily affect the quality of the episode as such, is that all this occurs on a Joss Whedon show. As a writer and showrunner, he is prided himself on his feminist credentials and well written, capable female characters ever since Buffy turned the stereotype of the helpless blonde horror movie victim on its head. Now, on his second television series, he has managed to kill off both his female leads over the course of four episodes. Fred's death giving birth to Lyria is quite similar to Cordelia dying of the after effects of giving birth to Jasmine.
Yeah. And all in all, Fred is used as a plot device, as a way to let the other cast members, incidentally all men, show how much they care, how determined they are and how much grief and they suffer over her death. It is, like I said, peculiar.
Yeah. Yep. And it's. I put, put this on the discord. I don't know if you saw this, but I was doing like some last minute research and I was like, what are like people of Reddit say about this episode and Fred and stuff? And I found this really, really lovely essay on Reddit from a writer who was talking about like how horrible it is like Fred and just kind of talking about how it strips her for agency and stuff. And I was like, this is fantastic. And I went to look and see who wrote it and it was of.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Course, our resident critically touched.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: I was like, oh, there he is. Oh no. I was like. And Jim says today in our episode, but I won't read his whole thing. But he basically brought up some really, really good, good comments and critiques. And he was just talking about how one of the things that, like, there's a lot of like fairy tale metaphors with her going in almost like a trance like state, touching the sarcophagus. But he made a really good point that I had not thought about is he was like, why couldn't the guys have at least phone called back and been like, fred, we have an option. We could save you or we could potentially like this. These are the options. And give her this option to be like, no, I refuse to let so many People die for the sake of me, for my life. Like, let her make one last choice and give her, like, a little bit of. Of meaning in her last and final moments and realizing, oh, hey, I'm not just suffering meaninglessly.
I'm suffering so that other people don't. Or, you know, something like that. But there's not even that. And I was like, that is. That is an excellent point.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: That is an excellent point.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Anyway, it would have never happened.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: It wouldn't have happened. But, yeah. Anyway, not to be like, a bummer, a downer, but it's just, like. That's just what I think of when I watch this episode. So. All right, let's talk about it.
So we start off in Fred's bedroom, and this is a very clear flashback to Fred packing her suitcase and leaving her family to go to UCLA in California for college. And her dad's like, you know, I don't know why he has to be this way. Like, there's plenty of good schools here. And, you know, her mom is, you know, trying to be sympathetic and supportive, but at the same time, you can tell she, like, desperately wants to agree with the dad.
And Fred's like, daddy, I love you like pancakes, but I'm getting the hell out of here.
And Fred's mom's like, language. And the dad's like, she should say it. That's where she's going. Hell. A. And I laugh so hard.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Quite literally, though.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Like, she literally is, though.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: That's the sad part is her parents were right.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah, they were right. Just seeing them again and just knowing that, like, are you gonna tell them, like, what's gonna happen?
They were the only. They were so nice, solid, stable parent, parental figures in the entire Bubba universe.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: In the entire universe.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Let's give Joyce Summer some credit. But, like. But, like, Joyce was very much.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Like, she was alone, though. Like, we're talking, like, two.
Like, he was the only, I think, positive father figure.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, Fred is the only one that can have any mommy or daddy issues.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Because both of her parents are, like, the sweetest human beings.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
But I also laugh really hard because I grew up in la and I. My husband and I, we met at a university in la, and it was very. It was a private Christian university. And so many of the kids that I met, their parents were, like, super. They were all super sheltered, and their parents didn't want them to go to liberal California to go to school. And the amount of people that I like, like, would hear, oh, my. Gosh we just want California to fall off the face of the Earth because it's horrible and it's so, like, bad and all this stuff. And I'm like, I've lived here my entire life. It's not that big of a deal.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Literally.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: So, like, when he said that, I was like, yeah, yeah, that's. That's. I've heard that before.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: Helly.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: It's so dumb.
So then the mom's like, honey, why don't you go check the Chevy one more time? And then Fred's like, oh, my gosh, I'm forgetting something. And she's like, fagan bomb. And so then she runs and grabs her little, like, stuffed bunny. Bunny doll. And she's like, I can't make the trip without Faganbaum. Fun fact, the name is after Mitchell Fagenbaum, who's a mathematical physicist and pioneer in the studies of chaos theory. So, you know, Fred always knew what she wanted to do.
And so she's like, you know, he's the master of chaos. He'll love la. All my junkie movie actor friends. And mom starts choking up and says, you got to promise me that you're going to be careful. And Fred's is, I'm going to study, Mom. I'm going to learn every damn thing they know up there and then figure out some stuff they don't. And I'll be careful. I'll even be doll boring across my heart. Cut to her screaming in rage with a flamethrower.
And then we have some screeching demons, large egg sacs. I was like, yeah, we're just straight to. What is it? Alien. She's like, flame throwing a bunch of, like, egg sacs. And at one point, one of them, like, has, like, this. This weird, like, stinger thing that it's about to shoot off at Fred's head. But then Wesley comes in with a shotgun and shoots at it. And then our couple.
This is the. The highest it's gonna get, guys.
Soak it in now.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Jeez.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: And then Fred's like, they, like, talk about, like, the eggs. And then Wesley's like, are you trying to turn me on? And Fred's like, it's kind of romantic. A roaring fire. And I'm like, those are some pretty intense flames you guys, like, maybe put.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: On some selling screen. Step away.
And then.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: And then the happy. The true happy couple comes in.
That's literally what I thought.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: I was like, oh, look at those boyfriends over there.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: They are so funny. This episode, literally my favorite part of the entire episode. Like, they had no right being so funny in such a tragic episode.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: They're. They're just the best team, though. They're bickering whether they want me to or not.
They are the dream team.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: They really are.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: The old married couple.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. They just have the perfect blend of, like, tension. Could be sexual, could be, like, almost. It could almost be, like, best friends who've known each other for a while, even sometimes, like, siblings where, you know, just where to poke at each other. Like, there's just such an interesting blend of things happening that just makes it very fascinating and especially in this episode.
So Fred and Wes are kissing, and then Spike comes in and Angel. And Angel's got a sword stuck through him. And there's some sort of this alien creature, like, stuck on the back of it. So you could tell that Spike, like, stabbed the creature through Angel.
And they're arguing about the fact that Spike stabbed Angel and.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Did you have to stab me?
[00:27:57] Speaker A: He's like, it was on your back. What was I supposed to do? Angel says, ask me to turn around. Spike's like, he did the battle. There wasn't time. Angel's like, you just, like, stabbing me. Spike's like, I'm shocked. Shocked that you'd say that. I much prefer hitting you with a blunt instrument.
And Angel's like, you know, we only asked you along because we felt sorry for you. And Spike's like, if it weren't for me, you'd be bug food, so stop whining.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Oh, my God, you guys. I love it.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: It's just really. It's just really entertaining. It's just.
So then Fred asks for the bug off of Angel's back, saying it's in pretty good shape and she'd like to take it back to the lab she always likes. Makes a good specimen. And then we cut to the science lab and this massive, huge sarcophagus gets rolled in. Knox plays a very good. Like, what is this? Don't know what this is. A little weasel.
Yeah, I know.
And they're like, oh, this is for Winifred Burkle. Supposed to be in the science department. And Knox is like, you want me to sign? And the delivery man says, ben signed. I like that because it's good. Gun. Gun. Signed it.
Also, the guy who. The. Who's the delivery man has the best voice. His name is Kevin Griveau. I believe he plays in Underworld. He plays the lichen rays. I've not seen Underworld, but get that man on some, like, cartoons.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Audiobooks.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, audiobooks. Great voice work.
Video games.
So then in Gun's office. There's a lot of singing in this. In this episode. That should have been my first clue that Joss wrote this. Just so much. So many musicals, so much singing. Gun is singing Three Little Maids From School. Are we also okay.
Jay. August. Excellent tone. The. That is a hard song to sing. The amount of, like, half steps, it is difficult, especially acapella. And he was nailing it, and then he went up to falsetto. I was like, dang, get this man in a musical.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Damn, girl. I have no idea what you just said, but I believe you.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: It's very. It's very difficult, but he's like, I could do it. He's happy. I'm sure you could. You got this.
Now go.
So he's just, you know, doing really good. Wesley comes in and kind of gets all embarrassed, and it's like. And don't stop with all the ladies in the gangster. But he just starts, like, trying to rap.
And Wesley's like, you seem in a chipper mood. And then Guns like, oh, my gosh. Me and Fred, we're getting back together.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Wesley is like.
And he's like, no. She was so, like, keyed up from last night that she asked me over. We ended up talking for hours, like old times. And the thing is that Wesley believes this, and he's, like, all sad again. And then Gun's like, I'm just kidding. It's fine. He's like, you know, it's my right to get a dig in. And he says, everybody in the building knows about it. I know all about it. Wesley asked, asks if he's all right with it, and Gun says, last year, you wouldn't ask me that question. The man becomes civilized. It's cool. Are things long done? And I know how you feel about her. Okay, so question for you, Leia. I feel like this is a controversial question, but do you think it's a betrayal if a friend dates another friend's ex?
Should you ask first? Do you have a loyalty to that friend?
[00:31:17] Speaker B: Like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. I think in this situation, in, like, the real world, I feel like this would be awkward.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: It should be awkward, right?
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I just feel like this would be awkward, but I feel like in universe, they just completely dropped a gun and fried and didn't really. They just kind of pretended that it did, like, didn't happen, and they just moved on.
But, yeah, I don't know. That's. That's tough. Especially because they're all in the same group, but I also feel like it happens in real life and it's either like, people continue being friends or they drop off. I don't know. But yeah. Awkward. Just. Yeah, a little weird.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Do you think that Wes should have told Gun himself?
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yes.
Yeah, I think so.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: So too.
[00:32:10] Speaker B: I think they should have told, like, him and Fred should have told Gun or, like, Fred should have told Gun.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: Because they were, like, supposed to be BFFs too. Like gun and Wes.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And, man, honestly, I hate to say this, and I was thinking this, this entire episode, which is so funny because, like, this is such a big Wesley episode, but the whole time I just kept thinking, wow, do I miss season one and two Wesley?
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Like, I. I just feel like even this, like, this inter distraction that he's having with Gun is just. Wesley's kind of become like a wet noodle. I feel like.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Stir when he shot the guy in the kneecap later on.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: No.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Oh, Season four Wesley.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: No, I just. I'm just like. I'm remembering, like, goofy, like, stumbling over his feet, but still very capable Wesley. And I just. I miss that Wesley.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: There's something uncoachable about Wesley and this.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: Wesley, he's not like the dark Wesley. That was really interesting from season four.
This is just like wet noodle Wesley. Like, he's just there. He has no emotions. He has no, like, I don't know, like, oomph. He has no charisma and he always did. And I just feel like it's just different now.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: I don't know if I like it.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think I. I don't think I like it either. But. Yeah, just messy. Messy.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: But anyway, anyway, what do you think? Do you think this is.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: So I did date one of my friends.
I was thinking about it and I was like, oh, that's horrible. And then I was like, hang on, hang on.
But to be fair, like, her and I were not friends anymore at that point. And she was one of those really toxic friendships where I don't think we ever really were friends.
It. She used me and a lot of stuff. And like, the relationship that I had with the guy ended up not being a good thing either.
And it just was messy all around. So I, like, generally would say probably not. But I also am not going to say because there's always exceptions, right? I'm not going to say across the board. I think it there. I think a lot of it depends upon how close you are with that friend.
If you're still in contact with that friend. Like, for instance, if it was, like, a BFF that I knew for years and years and years, my first loyalty would be to that friend, you know? And, like. Yeah, I think. I think there are situations where it's acceptable and okay, but I think you really have to make sure that you're doing it above board.
And, like, you have, like. I think it would have meant a lot if Wesley had come and talked to Gun instead of Gun finding out. But I. I know why Joss wrote it this way. Because he intentionally wanted to have the. Oh, last year's Wesley wouldn't have done that so that we could have that moment where Wesley shoots.
No, when Wesley shoots the guy. It's supposed to be glimmers of season four Wesley. Because that's where Joss. Joss wants to take us back to that, because that's most interesting to him.
And he's using Fred to do that, basically.
So it's all about Wesley.
It always is.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: The main character.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
The show. Wesley. Wesley. The series Wesley Investigations.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: Wesley Wyndham Price.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Wyndham Price Investigations. Yeah.
I don't know. That's pretty controversial, I'm sure.
Yeah. You guys. You guys should let us know. I. I like. I like to get messy. So tell me, do you guys think. Do you guys ever think. Tim, send me your. Your messy details. Did you ever date somebody that was, like, you know, your best friend's ex, or did you have it done to you?
Yeah, mine's pretty juicy, but I'm not going to share it on here. I'll tell Leia later, so.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: It's like, I don't want to know.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: Geez.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: Anyway, all right, back to the episode.
So then Guns, like, you know, to add the necessary boilerplate. You ever heard, or I'm going to kill you like a chicken. Wesley says, acceptable terms. Oh, this is just so sad, because then Gun ends up realizing that he's the one that hurts Fred later on. And then they talk about more Wolfram and Hart stuff, except this is about Lindsay. And Gun's like, I found where he is, or I didn't find where he is, but I know, like, where he used to live.
And he goes, it was under the name Doyle. And he was like, I. He took off, and I don't think he even had time to pack, but I think we should go check out his place. And Wesley's like, we're checking out. You should tell angel and Guns, like, you can tell him, I ain't going in there. We cut to Angel's office. And Spike and Angel are having a very loud and very passionate argument.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: And they're screaming and each other's screaming.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: It's like I'm talking about something primal. Savagery, brutal animal instinct. And Angel's like, and that wins out every time with you. And he gets in Spike's face. They're like inches apart. He's like, you know, the human race has evolved. So Spike. And then Spike's like, oh. Into a bunch of namby pamby self analyzing wankers who could never hope tune Angels. Like, we're bigger, we're smarter. Plus there's a thing called teamwork. Not to mention the superstitious tear of your pure aggressors. And Spike says, you just want it to be the way you want it to be. Angel says, it's not about what I want.
Yeah, it's my opinion.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: That's literally what it is.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: It's my opinion.
They're like so close to each other, like an old married couple.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Wesley spitting on each other, literally.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: And Wesley comes in, he's like, sorry, is this something we should all be discussing?
[00:37:49] Speaker B: It's like, hello, is everybody.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: You might as well be. Everyone can hear you. And then angel gets all embarrassed and he, like, backs away. He's like, no. And Spike doesn't break eye contact. Just stares straight at Wesley, like, yeah. And then Wesley's like, this just sounds really serious. And Spike goes, we were just. Look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?
And Wesley's like, you've been yelling at each other for 40 minutes.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: 40 minutes.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: And Spike, like, not embarrassed at all. He was like, yeah, do that.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: And what's the answer?
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Tell me. And Wesley's like, do the astronauts have weapons? They both instantaneously. No.
So.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: Okay, Sarah.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: What? Go ahead. Oh, no. You can ask me about caveman astronauts.
I feel like it's an easy answer, though. I don't feel like it's.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: What's the answer?
[00:38:35] Speaker A: Cavemen.
Yeah, because, okay, they're in this massive gear, which, unless you are without gravity, is pretty heavy.
So you're not going to be able to really fight. Right.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: Right. But are they in the. Are they in the get up? Are they in the gear? Like, do they. I feel like my answer would be different if they had weapons, because I feel like the advanced weaponry of an astronaut would immediately take out a caveman who has, like, very basic weapons.
Do you know what I mean?
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: But if it's like hand to hand combat, cavemen win for sure.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
If the Astronauts have weapons. Yeah, that definitely changes things, which is why it's a good question on Wesley's end. Yeah, I guess if they, if they're saying that they do actually have weapons, then probably the astronauts.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: But if they don't have weapons. I'm just trying to think of angels reasoning, like, why would an astronaut who doesn't have weapons or how would an astronaut who doesn't have weapons beat a caveman who's using like just brute force? And also, if you think about it, an astronaut, like, they have to be in good shape, but they're not going to be like strong.
They're not doing manual labor.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Like caveman would, well, have these astronauts bend in space because then their muscles have atrophy.
If they have weapons, they're not going to be able to do anything because there's a bunch of rehabilitation. So.
But it's really complex.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: On the other hand, going into a battle just with brute force and not really thinking about what you're doing could also end up getting you killed, like on the spot.
Because sometimes you can't. You're not anticipating what might come. Right.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: But again, if it's hand to hand combat, it has to be the caveman. Like, it's, it's going to be the caveman. One million.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: We're just talking brute strength for sure. Cavemen. But I think, like, that's Angel's argument is this idea, like, cavemen were not particularly smart versus astronauts have like fully formed human brains and probably technology and all that other stuff. So, yeah, I, I guess, I guess I would side with caveman. But then, yeah, I don't know.
It depends. I need to know the whole scenario. Yeah. Just don't have.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: And it's so funny because Fred later on goes, well, that's not fair. The cavemen have fire. What do the astronauts have? But it's like, do they have fire? Like, I don't know.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Well, yeah, like, the idea of cavemen typically is that they were the first ones to discover fire. And so they would have like torches of fire, but like.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Right, but that's weapons.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: What weapons do the astronauts have, though?
That's what I want to know.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: What weapons do astronauts have?
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah, they don't have weapons unless you're talking like a wrench.
But I think fire would probably be more effective.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: Right?
[00:41:40] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's also, I also do want to point out that angel and Spike are arguing about things that like, completely define who they are as fucking people.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Like, Spike is such a Caveman, because that's what he. That's how he functions. He's very much like a hothead. He uses his brute, you know, strength and force as a vampire to, like, do things. We saw this in Damage. And then Angel's very much somebody who, like, thinks it out. And obviously he's also strong, but he's, like, very strategic about it, which is what an astronaut would be, which is just so funny.
[00:42:17] Speaker A: We talked about how Angels more cerebral, so. And then Spike is more instinctual, I think, or I guess more animalistically instinctual, and Angels more cerebrally instinctual, I think. And so that makes a lot of sense. And it's reflected in their arguments, for sure. So it makes me think that this argument is not necessarily actually about caveman versus Ash.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah, they're projecting.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: But it's. Well, that there's a reason why angel just says, I think you need to go get your own place somewhere else. Because I think Angel's realizing that, like, we have two very different ways of doing things, and you might not be able to reach your full potential here, and it might be limiting me. We could be more effective if we divide and conquer and do things our own way.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Or they could be more effective if they work together.
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Nah, that's. That's. That's above them at this point.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: That's what I think they should do.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I do wonder if we'd moved into season six or at the end of season five, as they were anticipating it being before all of the changes happened, if they were planning on having Spike being kind of like a roving agent and having.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: That would have been kind of cool.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, this whole separate thing over there, that would be kind of cool.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: But I don't think he was ever gonna leave Angel. Let's be honest. He likes him.
[00:43:32] Speaker A: They, like, he doesn't.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: He doesn't want to leave.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Well, they had the spin off that they were gonna do with Spike. Faith Wood and possibly Andrew was gonna be like, spike and Faith on motorcycles traveling across. So I wonder if they were trying to find some way of.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Like, that sounds crazy.
[00:43:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
So then back at the science lab, Fred comes in and sees the sarcophagus. And Knox is like, I couldn't find any invoice on it. He's like, I thought you maybe you went crazy on ebay.
And then Knox is like, you know, I did a spectral analysis. Everything's bouncing off of it, which doesn't thrill me. Fred's like, let's not be hasty about opening it. It's probably just a mummy. And Knox is like, mummies could be a lot more trouble than you think. And you're seeing Wesley now.
And he says, I'm good with it. You know, he's like. Like, I've made my advances. She apologizes. He says, no, I don't want to make you uncomfortable. I love working with you, and that's plenty for me. And then, like, that's basically the end of it. And he's like, all right, I'm gonna go get our hazmats on this guy. And leaves the lab, leaving Fred alone to inspect the sargoph, the sarcophagus. It's interesting because this moment when she goes to, like, touch it, it's almost like she's in a trance.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's calling to her or something.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Weird. It's so weird.
So then the little, like, iris thing opens and lets out a gust of mummy air, and she starts coughing, knocks, walks in, and she tells him everything that had happened. And, like, that's odd. We cut to Angel's office, and Spike comes in, and instead of walking around a chair, he just walks straight over.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: On top of the chair.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: On top of the chair.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: That reminded me of those TikToks and videos that people were making where, like, they would be. It would be a pedestrian trying to cross at a light, and the car would, like, pull right up to where the pedestrian walkway is. So the guy.
It was like a video of somebody driving a convertible, and they had parked right there. And the pedestrian literally opens the car door, walks into, like. Literally walks on top of the convertible, like, on the seats and over the man who's sitting in the car, and just, like, walks to the other side because they're blocking the walkway. And they should laugh so hard. I'm like, yeah, honestly, like, that's kind of. That's a good point.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: Just giving unbothered energy. And Angel's like, spike, I can't do this anymore. It's time for you to leave.
That was the last straw.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: Are you saying we should start annoying other people?
[00:45:59] Speaker A: He, like, puts his hand on his chest. He's like, what?
Angel says, I think you should go. Spike's like, you really can't stand competition, can you? Angel says, the way I figure it, Lindsay brought you back as a spirit bound to this place so you'd become invested to it. He only make you corporeal again once you. You've gotten used to it, attached to it. Spike's like, I'm not attached. I just don't have anywhere else to Go.
Angel's like, what if you did? You know, I'll give you the resources. You can go anywhere. Cars, gadgets, expense accounts. You fight the good fight, but in style. And he's like an impossible in Outer Mongolia. And Spike, you know, is like a roving agent 007, you know?
[00:46:36] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Living out his fancy dreams. Angel's like, anywhere, Everywhere. Anywhere but here.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: I kind of love that angel has come to this place where he trusts Spike now. Like, he knows that Spike is on their side. And, like, he trusts in his, I guess, like, ability to do good.
[00:46:55] Speaker A: But there's always going to be. That part of him, I think rankles at angel and vice versa because they're both reflections of their past. And that's really hard. But that's what makes it so cool to watch them interact with each other, you know?
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Yeah. But I just. I love that this relationship is moving in, like, a positive way.
And they're like.
They annoy each other, and they kind of bring out the worst in each other. But I think that they are. They're really positive influences on each other at the same time, you know, especially angel on Spike. Like, I just think about destiny where Spike was saying that, you know, Drusilla turned me, but you made me a monster. Like, he fully believed that Angelus made him a monster. But then, like, look how the turntables now that you being a part of Angel's mission has now made you into a champion. Right.
I love that.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: I know that's one of the bummers of having the show canceled, because I think it would have been so cool to see angel and Spike's relationship evolve even more.
I mean, they grew leaps and bounds by the end of the season, but just imagining, like, future seasons would have been for sure.
All right. And then now we're in the hallway, Wolfram and Hart and Fred and Lauren are walking down the hallway discussing astronauts versus cavemen. Fred's like, it doesn't make sense. The cavemen have fire. That's what they live within their caves. The astronauts should at least have some sort of weapon. They run into Wesley on the stairs, flirt a little bit, and she talks about how she breeds some mummy dust, that she's okay, she's mummy free. And then Wesley's like, I want to take you out. And Lauren's like, oh, my gosh, get a balcony. You two steps between them to go down the stairs. Fred says, you'll still find me for lunch, though, right? And he looks at her and says, I'll just look where the sun shines and starts to seeing you are my sunshine. Fred finishes for him, singing at Wesley. And then this was horrifying. Within like a blink of an eye, Lauren just stops in his tracks and whirls back around with horror on his face. And a moment later, Fred just splurts blood, coughs it up all over Wesley's face. I'm like, come on, we don't need.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: And see red flashbacks.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: And then she just dramatically tumbles with both the guys catching her. And Wesley's screaming, get medical now.
And then we cut to the medical room. Fred's in a hospital gown, and you have guns, Spike, Wesley, Lauren, angel, and Knox gathered around her. And then she's like, it's my boys.
I haven't had this many big strapping men at my bedside since that night with the varsity lacrosse team. That was a joke. And they're all, like, really scared. They talked about how, like, the lab is doing some blood work. She just needs to rest. And she's like, you guys are being too comforting. What's really up, up? And they don't really tell her. They're just like, we've got the sarcophagus under the scope. Like, we're going to isolate it. We don't know what's going on quite yet. Don't worry about it. Angel says, we're going to work. This shouldn't take long. Then Fred says, handsome man saves me. And I know all of these are supposed to be, like, callbacks, but it's just, like, the constant, like, zeroing in on her being on the fact that she's a woman.
Yeah, it's just so fun.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: And there's how many men surrounding her? Like, seven.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: It's the start of a mad fantasy.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Like, what the hell is going on?
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Someone did, like, a reverse harem or whatever and is like, no, that's what this is giving.
This is, like, the start of a fan fiction. And it's. It's just like, guys, it's not. It's not the vibe. It's not the vibe.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: It's not the vibe.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: It's not the vibe.
[00:50:29] Speaker B: I do love.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: I do love that moment between her and Gun where he kind of like, like, stops and, like, offers her his hand for a minute before he goes. Like, I. I needed that because there's been too much, like, you were talking about erasure of their relationship. And that's a big part of her story.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: That was her entire story, as well as guns for nearly two seasons.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: For the majority of the show, honestly, they did the most amount of growing in those seasons. Yeah.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: So then Wesley says that he has to go be bookman. He says, just hit that line. I'll be here in a heartbeat. She says, assuming I still have one. He says, hush. And then we cut to angel and Spike, who are waiting by the door for Wesley. And they see this whole interaction, and Angels, like Wes and Fred. Spikes. Like, you didn't know.
I didn't know. I literally was like, angel's always the last one in the loop.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Always.
I mean, he is like the ultimate introvert. He probably doesn't talk to anyone, look at anyone. He doesn't hear gossip, Nothing.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: Yeah, everyone in the building knew. That's the funny thing. Everyone in the building knew except for Angel.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: So that means angel doesn't talk to anyone.
[00:51:42] Speaker A: Are we shocked? We are not shocked.
[00:51:44] Speaker B: And even Spike knew because Spike goes and plays. Like, Spike goes in gossip apartment.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: No. Spike stops by at Harmony's desk every single day and goes, what? What news do you have now? Harmony. Okay. And she pulls out her. By her binder and she goes, sally from whatever is now into so and so over here. And then, like, talks about all the gossip and Spikes, that's what happens. And he's doing that because he wants to know what everyone's saying about himself. Lauren talks to Harmony because he likes to know what the juicy gossip is, just in general, because that's fun to him. But Spike just wants to know what everyone's saying about him.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. And nobody says anything about him.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: No one's saying anything.
[00:52:21] Speaker B: Plot twist. Like, nobody.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Which is why he comes in and walks. Walks all over Angel's furniture.
It's so, like. It's literally, like, just coming in and peeing all over everything.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: Such a petulant little child.
[00:52:37] Speaker A: I love it, though. I love petty angel and Spike. They're just funny.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: I know. Me too.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: Okay. I don't like this scene. I know it's supposed to be, like, this big epic. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry to be, like, a hater. I just. This episode is crazy cringy to me. So Wesley, like, walks down the hallway purposefully, and angel and Lauren are waiting for him. And there's gun. Spike knocks. And they're like, you know, she knows it's bad. She's smarter than all of us put together. It's, like, such pandering. She's smarter than all of us guys. And then apparently, like, she. Whatever she has is mystical.
And they talk to the doctor, and the doctor says it's some sort of parasitic agent that's working its way through her organs are cooking. In days time, they'll liquefy. Which is interesting because the idea of liquefication is. Is simpler or similar to what Mayor Wilkins was saying when he was talking about how his organs were shifting within himself as the Ascension was happening. So it's a very similar, like, old one concept.
Anyway, then Spike, his ever dramatic princess butt, is all like, no, not this girl. Not this day.
[00:53:44] Speaker B: Day.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: What other.
[00:53:46] Speaker B: He's like, standing at a full height, which is still shorter than every man there.
He's like a little Chihuahua. I love it, girl. Not this day.
I love how much Spike loves Fred, though. Like, he's so. And he's so.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: They've actually developed a relationship over this season. Yes. This girl saved me.
Yeah. And I do think, as cheesy as the line is, I do think it's a callback to Wes. Or not Wesley, sorry. Fred being like, no, Spike, not today. Like. Like, fight. Come on. And it's. It's very much. It's kind of a call to action in arms, just like she did with him. So I do get it. It's just so overdramatic and melodramatic in this. Yeah.
And then Angel's like, you need to research this, Wes. I need a name, a history, anything. We need to know where it came from. Knox is like, it just showed up. No return address. Didn't recognize the guy who brought it in. It came in the middle of the night. Angel's like, this is deliberate. Lauren's like, senior partners, guns. Like, I'm gonna go head up to the white room and talk to the conduit.
And then Spike's like, well, what about Lindsay? And then Angel's like, all right, let's. You know, we've got his address. Let's go check it out.
Lauren and Spike both volunteer to come as well. The angel goes, guys. Wesley goes, you don't have to say it. Angel says, I'll say it anyway. Winifred Burkle, go. And then we get this, like, shot from up above where everybody's like, on a mission. And I was like, okay, but when.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Have they ever done this before?
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Never.
Oh, no. We can't do anything to save Cordelia. Okay? Never mention her. Well, they do mention her in this episode, but, like, it's. It's just very dumb because it feels like a bid to get us emotionally worked up so that we can be devastated at the very end.
And I don't like feeling manipulated.
[00:55:43] Speaker B: Yes. On a positive note. No, I do have something positive to Say, I do really enjoy how quickly things happen from here.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Like, as soon as Fred sings.
Yeah, that's true. That's the only thing that feels like it drags the out. But.
[00:56:03] Speaker A: I'm sorry this is such a role reversal because normally you're the one who's all like.
And I'm over there, like, and on a positive now I'm like, nope, this all sucks. I hate it all.
[00:56:18] Speaker B: I do like how the episode goes from, like, 0 to 100, because I feel like it deserves that, but it just. But at the same time, it's still, like, 30 minutes of zero to 100. So it does feel like a lot.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: But you know what would have been really nice to have this energy devoted towards is the rest of, like, the previous parts of this season for Fred's character.
Like, all of a sudden, it's like, I know. It's like, wow, Fred exists. We. We're talking about Fred. Wow. Okay. Okay.
Wow. You know, would have been really nice is to know, like, why she rejected Knox. It would have been really nice to know why. Like, what attracted her to Wesley. But we're never gonna know. Like, the fact that she says, would you have loved me to Wesley? And I'm like, do you love Wesley? Friends?
[00:57:02] Speaker B: What?
[00:57:02] Speaker A: Why are we only focusing on Wesley? Wesley.
[00:57:05] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
It's okay. We'll get there. Go to the next scene.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: I'm sorry. Okay. I'm composed.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Are you?
[00:57:22] Speaker A: No, but I'm reining it in right now.
He's turning red.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: Okay, you got this.
[00:57:29] Speaker A: Okay.
Oh. Fred's lying in the hospital bed. She's twitching uncomfortably. Her skin tone is changing. Now we're in Wesley's office. The employee comes in. This is what he's like, hey, like, we can't all, like, be working on Ms. Burkle's case. I was like, perfectly reasonable. Wesley's like, yeah, completely reasonable. Pulls out a pistol and just shoots this guy.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: That was crazy.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: And then tells his secretary, who we've never met before.
Oh, please send in anyone else who isn't working Ms. Burkle's case to me. Me. Are you gonna line them all up and shoot them, Wesley?
[00:58:02] Speaker B: It would appear so.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: Also love how the show is now having to add in other female characters because Fred's dying. You're like, is Harmony okay? That is the thing. I will say I was really upset that we had so much focus on the guys reactions, but not harmonies, when arguably we've had more Harmony and Fred meaningful interactions this entire season than Fred. And pretty Much. Anybody else. Else.
[00:58:25] Speaker B: Yeah, they never include Harmony.
[00:58:29] Speaker A: It's dumb.
Anyway. I didn't think this was going to be the episode that I got really angry about. But so. So it is. All right. So then Guns now in the white room. It's deserted. And then he ends up getting hit and looks up and finds out that the conduit looks just like him.
And the conduit says, you don't want to be here. Gun says, I never want to be here. What happened to the cat? And the conduit says, the physical form of the conduit is determined by the viewer.
So this is interesting because, like, there's several ways you could take this. Like, Gun sees himself as the conduit because maybe his arrogance. He thinks that he's the closest to the senior partners because he has the chip implanted, because he has a rapport with them. He's been here before. Maybe he feels powerful because of the chip, but it also could be, like, him fighting himself and how he.
He just, like, really struggles with that image of himself that's not a lawyer. And so this idea of, like, Gun the way he wants to be versus the Gun that he needs to accept fighting each other, it's just. It's very fascinating. I really enjoy it.
J. August Richards says that this is one of the most fun things he's ever gotten to do on the show, is playing both parts and going back and forth.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Oh, my God. It's like Michael B. Jordan and Sinners.
Oh, my God.
[00:59:53] Speaker A: She just got, like, a glazed look on her face right there. She's like, what a great movie.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: If you haven't seen Sinners, I don't watch it.
[00:59:59] Speaker A: I want to go.
My plan is to go see it. Yeah. I just haven't had the chance.
[01:00:03] Speaker B: It's been, like, the talk of the discord for the last little.
[01:00:06] Speaker A: So, like, the clips that I've seen and, like, the discussions, I'm very, very excited. Excited to watch it, for sure.
All right, so they circle each other. The conduit says, you're failing. Gun says, I'm not the issue here. The conduit says, I believe that you think that. Gun says, you can't let this happen to Fred. And the conduit says, this is the part where I need to be clear. Punches Gun across the room, says, I am not your friend. I'm not your flunky. I'm not your. I am your conduit to the senior partners, and they are tired of your insolence. They are not here for your convenience. And Gun Says I didn't come for a favor. We can make a deal. He says, if you want a life for hers, you'll get it. You can have mine. And the conduit says, I already do.
Yeah.
[01:00:44] Speaker B: Do them willingly.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: Yep. So then in these apartments, twice, you slept with Giles in the hood of a car. Twice.
Okay, just. When you said twice, that's what popped in my brain. Did you get that reference? Leia?
[01:01:00] Speaker B: Yes, of course I got that reference.
You hoe.
[01:01:06] Speaker A: No, that would be Joyce.
[01:01:07] Speaker B: That's the.
Hey, don't say that about Joyce.
[01:01:11] Speaker A: No, in the nicest way possible, because, respectfully, Ripper Giles can get it.
[01:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
Anywhere, anytime.
[01:01:19] Speaker A: You know what? I'm happy both of them had that. That experience.
So happy for them.
[01:01:25] Speaker B: And they looked really hot doing it.
[01:01:26] Speaker A: They really, really did. I missed that episode. I need to go watch it. All right. So in Lindsay's apartment, they find Eve dressed in, like, Lindsay's shirt in the bed. And she's hiding from the senior partners because it's still all warded off and.
[01:01:37] Speaker B: Everything Looks like she hasn't bathed in three months.
[01:01:40] Speaker A: I thought her makeup actually looked pretty good. And her hair, I think. I think I figured it out. I think the way the actress styles her hair, it's too flat. She has a really small head, but with the volume in her hair, she actually looked kind of cute. And I was like, girl, like that head looks.
[01:01:53] Speaker B: I think they're trying to make her look, like, depressed and afraid.
[01:01:56] Speaker A: She looks really good, though.
[01:01:57] Speaker B: Disheveled.
[01:01:59] Speaker A: She did not look disheveled. She looked pretty good, but maybe that's just me.
So Eve is like, I don't know what you're talking about.
And Spike and Angel are trying to get more information out of her. They talk about the sarcophagus, and she says, lindsay and I had nothing to do with that. She asks if they heard anything about Lindsay. And the guys are getting really frustrated. And then Lauren walks in and just punches Eve in the face and says, oh, oh, I'm sorry. That was a knuckle buster. I'm Jake Lamoto over here. It's pathetic. Oh, here's the thing, Eve. You're gonna sing for me, and I'm gonna read you right now. And here's one more thing. And this part genuinely made choke up. Because Winifred Burkle once told me, after a sinful amount of Chinese food, and in lieu of absolutely nothing, I think a lot of people would choose to be green, your shade if they had the choice. If I hear one Note, one quarter note. That tells me you had any involvement. The these two won't even have time to kill you.
[01:02:54] Speaker B: Don't mess with Lauren.
Don't mess with Lauren.
[01:02:57] Speaker A: I want to be Lord's friends so bad.
[01:03:00] Speaker B: I know.
That was so sweet.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: So then she sings for them. And the song that she sings is a snippet of LA Song, the song that Lindsay performed on his guitar in Caritas in Dead end. Pretty as a picture. She's like a golden ring.
[01:03:14] Speaker B: A Lindsay original.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: A Lindsay original. Yeah.
[01:03:18] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:03:18] Speaker A: Which means he's pulled out his guitar and sang. Yeah.
[01:03:20] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What a terrible tear. Okay, can I just say, one of the worst things a man can do when you're hanging out with him is pull out a guitar and just be like, let me sing for you.
[01:03:32] Speaker A: That's why. That's the funniest part of the Barbie movie.
[01:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:35] Speaker A: When they have pulling out the guitar because the white girl has not had a guy do that to her.
[01:03:44] Speaker B: I've literally. That's a universe. Happened to me in real life.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: Here. No, me too. 100. And then you're stuck. You're trapped.
[01:03:51] Speaker B: You're just like, oh, this is so.
[01:03:53] Speaker A: Because you can't just interject in the middle of a song. You have to wait till he's done.
[01:03:57] Speaker B: But they don't ever doing something so revolutionary. They're like, oh, my God, look at me. I'm just so good at the guitar.
[01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's always like, the same song.
[01:04:06] Speaker B: Men don't do that.
[01:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Guys, this is a psa. Please don't. Please, please don't. We don't want to be.
What did he say, Ken? He's like, I'm gonna play the guitar at you.
Yeah. That's literally what it feels like. Yeah.
All right, so Lauren's like, she's clean. And she goes. Or he says, her future's not too bright, but. And then he was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, nothing's written stone lately, but if I was about to face your future, I'd make, like, Carmen Miranda and die.
[01:04:35] Speaker B: And he read her.
And then if somebody said that to me, I would pack up my shit and just, like, go stand in front.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: Of a tree, go walk outside and be like, take me to the Powers that Be the partners.
[01:04:54] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I'm walking right off a bridge.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Beam me up. Powers that Be.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[01:05:01] Speaker A: But then she gives them some interesting information. She says that the senior partners can't help her. She says, if you're talking about A sarcophagus that doesn't match anything in their records. There's nothing that's not in their records except what came before. The Old Ones. She says that Wesley's books can conjure up anything. He just needs to look for the Deeper well. He needs to ask for the Deeper well. So then we cut to Wesley's office, and he's briefing everyone about his research. Says it's called Illyria, a great monarch and warrior of the Demon Age. Murdered by rivals and left adrift in the Deeper well, which is a burial ground, a resting place of all the remaining Old Ones.
He says he doesn't think this is merely an infection, that Fred's skin is hardening, that she's being hollowed. Hollowed out so that the thing can use her to gestate, to claw its way back into the world.
He says that he's found the Deeper well, that it's in the Cotswolds. And Angel's like, all right, Lauren, tell Harmony to prep the jet. We'll be there in 10 hours. And Knox is like, you can be there in four. And he's like, we have really good jets. And then Wesley's like, it's going to have a guardian, maybe several Wes spikes. Like, let him send an army. And then Wesley says it's like a prison for the dead. And that basically, they're going to want to have Illyria back. If something gets out, it's written, it can be drawn back from the source.
And so he's like, we'll keep working here. That's our shot. And then Lauren says, if nobody thinks it's too ridiculous, I'm going to pray.
What a sweet, sweet man.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: So sweet. Seriously, what is he praying to, though?
[01:06:30] Speaker A: He's just. Just anybody out there.
I love that. Can you hear me? Help.
[01:06:38] Speaker B: Help, Lord, help.
[01:06:52] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[01:06:58] Speaker B: Sarah.
[01:06:59] Speaker A: What?
[01:07:03] Speaker B: I was thinking, you need to make another compilation on TikTok of, like, common, like, memes, or. Sounds like you did the other day.
[01:07:11] Speaker A: Yes, the one that just.
[01:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that one you need to use. The one where it's just my opinion.
[01:07:17] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. No.
[01:07:18] Speaker B: Angel and Spike.
[01:07:19] Speaker A: No, for real. For real.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: And I'm sure we could pull a few more out of this episode.
[01:07:24] Speaker A: Like, for sure, 100%. It's really funny because I have another one planned for the episode we just dropped. Bring on the Night.
We were talking about how Leah made a point of how Buffy's like, no, we have to go after Spike. We have to rescue Spike from the First. And we were all like, why? She doesn't even know if Spike's alive. And Leah keeps saying, why not? Just.
[01:07:48] Speaker B: Just.
[01:07:48] Speaker A: And call up Angel. She's like. It's like Kris Jenner talking to Kim, like, what would happen if you just called Taylor up? She's like, what would happen if you just called angel up?
And I was like, literally, for real. She's like. She keeps talking about how she has to make this plan to go save Spike, who she doesn't even know if he's alive when Angel's a phone call away.
[01:08:10] Speaker B: True.
[01:08:11] Speaker A: Anyway. Whatever.
[01:08:12] Speaker B: True. Anyway, Anyway. Yeah, that's my request from you.
[01:08:16] Speaker A: All right. Remind me this episode when we. When we air this.
[01:08:19] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:08:20] Speaker A: As you're editing it, remind me. So now we're in the medical room. Fred is just still not doing great. Wesley comes in and then ends up finding her bed empty, goes to the science lab, and beakers are shattering as Fred is stumbling around holding onto the glass tables. As she's walking deeper into the lab, Wesley comes in and says, fred, you can't be doing this. This. She says, please, Wesley, I'm exactly the person to be doing this. Something could be missed. Something could have been missed.
She holds her head. He says, whatever's happening will stop it, I swear to you. She says, I have to work. And she says, I am not the damsel in distress. I am not some case. I have to work this. I lived in a cave for five years in a world where they killed my kind like cattle. I'm not going to be cut down by some monster flu. I am better than that. And I really do think that's why, at the very end of the episode, Fred says, the cavemen win. Of course they have to. Because I think Fred is the caveman in this situation, and she wants to believe that she's stronger than this, that they are stronger, that they could win.
It's just. This is just so tragic because she is the damsel in distress. That's the tragedy of Fred's story.
[01:09:28] Speaker B: And the fact that they have her talk about all of the shit that she's already been through, just like. It's like a double slap in the face.
That's like somebody slapped you and then punched you in the face.
[01:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:39] Speaker B: And then went in for a second round, and it's like, my God, like, how far we've fallen.
[01:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:47] Speaker B: To get here.
[01:09:48] Speaker A: It's just very sad.
[01:09:50] Speaker B: It just. Yeah. Yeah. Just to bring it all up again and, like, have her be in this position where she is the damsel in distress. After all, it's like, it's cruel is what it is. It is. It's cruel.
[01:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's really meant to make us believe that she's gonna get out of this.
[01:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:08] Speaker A: Because you're like, they wouldn't be saying all this stuff if she's gonna die.
He says, I need you to. You're gonna be fine. I'll swear on my life we will stop this. I need you to fight. Get back in bed and fight.
Some of the language that she started using was a little weird. And I wonder if she. Like, it might have been some of Illyria peeking through the whole. I wonder how very scared I am, and this is a house of death. Like, some of the things that she was saying, it just. It didn't sound quite like something Fred would say. That's true, but I don't know.
So then he ends up carrying her to her bedroom. She asks him to take her home and. Okay. I've gotta say, though, her bedroom is the coziest skiing place. I was like. I paused on the paint color because I really, like, want to paint my room this exact same shade. I was, like, trying to figure it out.
Her.
[01:10:59] Speaker B: This bedroom, though, this is her childhood bedroom.
[01:11:03] Speaker A: I don't think it is. I thought, so.
[01:11:05] Speaker B: It looks like the same.
[01:11:07] Speaker A: I think it's her apartment. It's not her childhood bedroom.
[01:11:11] Speaker B: I thought it looked like her childhood.
[01:11:12] Speaker A: I thought it did.
[01:11:13] Speaker B: Maybe she just decorated it the same then.
[01:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's slightly different. I always thought, oh, they took a jet back to her family home. But no, they're. They're in LA because of the events of the next episode.
[01:11:24] Speaker B: Right, right, right.
[01:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Also, where her parents would be there, you know?
[01:11:29] Speaker B: Right.
Well, I thought. I don't know why I always thought this, but I thought that it was like some type of illusion. I don't know why that would happen. Literally. Growing up, I always thought that.
[01:11:41] Speaker A: Well, the first time I watched this, I for sure thought that he took her back to her childhood home. And I think that's because of all the flashbacks I got the sense of.
[01:11:48] Speaker B: I never thought that he took her back to her childhood home. I for some reason thought that they were still in Wolverman Hart and this is some type of illusion. Like. Like, it's like she's imagining her. And I'm like, but why would.
[01:11:58] Speaker A: I don't know how you would have gotten that. Yeah, that's very bizarre. Very weird.
[01:12:02] Speaker B: I'm like, damn, how did they get there? Because I thought it was her childhood home, and I'm like, there's no way they went all the way to Texas. So surely there must be some magic involved.
[01:12:11] Speaker A: That is much more reasonable than a two hour jet hologram. For sure.
What?
I don't know.
[01:12:21] Speaker B: I was convinced. I was like, that's pretty fucking sick. They can just make any room they want at Wolfram and Hart. Cool.
[01:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah. You can call up any book there's a room that he can make it look like anything. Completely reasonable. Yeah, absolutely.
[01:12:35] Speaker B: For sure.
[01:12:35] Speaker A: No in universe evidence. But we make up our own stuff here, so it's all good TV show.
I do love this shot of him carrying her in. We have it through the mirror as he just lays around the bed. And it's just like so beautifully shot and cozy and golden and. Yeah.
[01:12:52] Speaker B: And there's pictures. Did you notice the pictures on her mirror? It's of the. Of all, like all the gang. Yeah. There's a picture of Angel. Yeah, there's a few. A few of the pictures I do recognize that are online.
They look like behind the scenes pictures, but it looks like they use those to like put them around the mirror. And I just. Oh, that was so sad. I was like looking at them, trying to like decipher who was in them. There's a ton with Lauren. There's one of angel, there's one of Wesley, and I'm just.
[01:13:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
So then on a private jet, we have Spike and Angel. And Spike's like, I've never flown before. And Angels, like, I've been on a helicopter. They don't get this high. Like they're not used to being able to fly somewhere where both so protected. Yeah. They're about to hold hands, be like.
And then Spike's like, hey, after we save Fred, we should hit the West End, take in a show. Angel's like, I've never seen Les Mizz. Spike's like, trust me. Halfway through the first act, you'll be drinking humans again. Angel says, can't lose her Spike. Spike says, we won't. Then angel says, we have a Cordy reference. I lost Corny.
[01:13:53] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:13:53] Speaker A: I was like, whoa, whoa.
I did appreciate that. I know.
[01:13:58] Speaker B: Not me, not me, not me.
[01:14:03] Speaker A: There's our next one. So then in Gun's office, Gun is talking excitedly on the phone, but not in a good way. He's like, you know, know you're not hearing me. He's threatening people. He's saying, you know, I will hurt you. I don't care if, you know, the old ones scare you, but you, you know, you gotta help us. As he finishes Knox comes in and goes, we should freeze her. Take her down to cryogenics guns. Like, are you sure we can do that? Knox says, let's test it out. Back in Fred's apartment, Wesley is paging through books when Fred wakes up from a nap.
He's like, you dozed off? Was I making too much noise, like, turning the page? She says, not enough. I need noise to keep me here.
And he's like, don't worry. Angel and Spike are on their way to find your cure. And I. And I shouldn't like to be the thing standing in their way.
And then all of a sudden, she stands up or sits up and is anxious and is like, faganbaum. And he's like, what? And she's panicking. She's like, I have to find him. He's the master of I have to find Fagin bomb here. He says, who is Fagin Bomb? And then she stops and starts to cry and says, I don't remember.
[01:15:04] Speaker B: My God, those words. I just can't hear these words anymore in the Buffy verse.
[01:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: That's cruel as hell. Let them remember.
[01:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And then she talks about how, you know, at a time like this, she's worried about how crappy she looks. He says, you're the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. She says, do you always like splotchy girls? And he says, it's my curse. And then he kisses her on the forehead. I. To my dying day, there is nothing sweeter than a forehead kiss. There's something very pure about it, and I just love it. And then she says, read to me.
And she says, can that be any book in the world? And he says, name one. And then we get him reading from A Little Princess, a beautiful excerpt.
She felt as if she had lived a long, long time. We get this beautiful shot of him reading with the sunset in the bedroom and the guys walking through the misty forest. As again, all fairy tale esque this episode.
[01:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really was. I thought that a lot when I. When this scene was happening. I was like, ah, there's a fairy tale of. Of Fred.
[01:16:05] Speaker A: Yep. Apparently, Joss has cited A Little Princess as one of his inspirations for the creation of Buffy.
And the book has a lot of themes about resilience, love, friendship and loss.
So then the Cotswolds, Spike and Angel are walking through a grove in the foggy moonlight. Gorgeous.
[01:16:25] Speaker B: So romantic.
[01:16:27] Speaker A: Very romantic. Moonlit walk, you know, in the Cotswold else. And they see this ginormous tree. And Angel's like, I bet that's the entrance to the deeper well.
Spike's like, either that or Christmas Land. Do you ever have any fun when angel, like, doesn't get his reference? All of a sudden, a bunch of armored men wielding swords rush out. And Angel's like, I'm about to. And Spike's like, and they even brought us weapons. Strategy. Angel's like, just hold my hand. And Spike raises his eyebrow, and he's like, St. Petersburg. And angel goes, thought you'd forgotten.
[01:16:55] Speaker B: What have these boys been up to?
That's so cute.
[01:17:01] Speaker A: That's so fun. And then, you know, they let go of each other's hands. There's a length of wire between them. They pull it taut, and they end up clotheslining a bunch of the demons. They start fighting. Back in the science lab, Gun comes in to Knox, looking at the microscope. Well, I guess they're already in there. And Knox is like, okay, freezing her is not going to work.
He's there, impervious to the cold. The blood tissue freezes, but they just keep working away like it's a sunny day in la. I'm sorry. And then Knox talks about how nervous he is and says, look, I'd never tell her this, but I care about Fred more than. She's like, no one I've ever met. You know, guns like I do. And then Knox says, I mean, I don't just care about Fred. I practically worship it. And then Gun goes, you said it. And Knox is like, what? And Gun says, not her. You said, I worship it. And then Knox goes, oops. And I'm like, this little sucker wanted to find out.
[01:17:53] Speaker B: I think he wanted.
[01:17:54] Speaker A: This was a very much. I want to gloat. I want to be able to be like, I did all of. Of this. It was way too easy.
[01:18:01] Speaker B: It's gotten to the point where he knows that they can't.
[01:18:03] Speaker A: They can't stop it.
[01:18:05] Speaker B: So he's like, might as well.
[01:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
So then back in the Cotswold, Spike and Angel finish fighting all of the knights. And then a man appears, Dragon. And angel knows him. And he's like, you're the keeper of the well. And Dragon says, have been for decades. Spike's about to ask who he is, but Dragon's like, do not ask me a question.
If you ever ask me a single question, I will kill you outright.
And then Angel's like, he can. He would. Spike's like, and Dragon says, you're here about Illyria. And then Spike starts to ask another question. Dragon's like, I just said to You. Not one moment ago. Don't ask. Not one word. Not one single word. Angel's like, seriously?
[01:18:46] Speaker B: It's just. It's such whiplash. Because it really, truly is hilarious moments in this episode. Like, probably the funniest I've ever seen.
And then there's, like, absolute devastation.
[01:18:57] Speaker A: No. It's so true. Your emotions just all over the place. And again, it undercuts it because you're thinking, there's no way Fred's gonna die. Because they're laughing and.
[01:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:19:04] Speaker A: Kicking and having, like.
[01:19:05] Speaker B: I feel like I'm doing something illegal by laughing. Because the next scene is just, like, Fred's organs liquefying from the inside out. And her suffering.
[01:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, right? Every time we cut back, I just go, oh, God, please. I'm in pain. Fred's in pain. Like, I don't know. I.
I wonder. Like, I'm just like, what?
[01:19:28] Speaker B: I wonder.
[01:19:29] Speaker A: Well, I wonder. I just had a thought. If, like.
If Fred had been like, hey, Wes. Just, like, shoot me.
[01:19:37] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[01:19:39] Speaker A: I know. That's so dark. Sorry. That's why, like, would. Would Wesley. Like, Would it stop Illyria from taking over?
[01:19:45] Speaker B: I don't think he could, because her skin was hardening. Like, he tried to put the needle in her arm and it just broke on her arm. I don't think. But I don't think that was gonna.
[01:19:55] Speaker A: I guess they were hoping that Spike and Angel would. Yeah.
[01:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:19:58] Speaker A: That's just horrendous. It's just horrible.
She could, like, drink poison or something.
Yeah.
[01:20:05] Speaker B: But I feel like. Based on what? Weasel Man Holden. Whatever his name is?
[01:20:12] Speaker A: Oh, no, no.
[01:20:13] Speaker B: Knox.
[01:20:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:20:14] Speaker B: He was saying how, like, they couldn't even freeze. They couldn't even freeze the actual. So, like, I feel like Illyria would have. Still, Even if Fred's body would have been dead, it almost would have, like, sped up the process of Illyria taking over. Like it was gonna happen no matter what.
Impervious to all harm.
[01:20:31] Speaker A: So it's just like. Yeah.
All right. So Dragon is like, just don't ask questions. Angel's like, seriously? He doesn't like questions. Spike's like, why the bloody hell not? Angel's like, he can't lie. Then we cut to the science lab, and Gun is manhandling. Knox is like, you did all this? Knox is just grinning. He's like, technically, that's not the case. I just played my part. He says, I meant everything I said about her. I chose Fred because I love her. Because she's worthy. You think I'd have. My God Hatched out of some schmuck. And he says, this is all set in motion millions of years ago, Charles, and there's just no way to stop it. He says, angel and Spike are on track, but it doesn't matter. Angel's not going to save her. And guns like you don't know Angel. And Knox says, I'm not being clear. I don't mean the Angel's gonna fail to save her. I mean he's gonna let her.
Oh.
And that's when you start to go, I don't think this is going to be a happy episode and have a happy ending.
Nope. And so that now Wesley's lying in bed besides Fred, and she says, will you read to me some more? And then she talks about how the light hurts her eyes, but she doesn't want him to turn it off. She's like, but it hurts my eyes. Everything's so bright and hollow. Cavemen win. Of course the cavemen win. Because. Because they are drawn to the light, to the fire.
And inside of the deeper well. Dragon leads them in, and he says, I never would have thought you'd end up here, Angel. And then Spike says, do you two know each other? And he's like, that was a statement. I already know that you do. Dragon says, I'll tell you as much as I can. The old Ones were demons pure. They ward as we would breathe endlessly. The greater ones were interred, for death was not always their end. Illyria was feared and beloved as few are. It was laid to death, death, in the very depths of the well until it disappeared a month ago. Spike is like, someone took it from under your nose a month ago and you didn't miss it till now. That makes you quite a crap jailer, doesn't it? Also a statement.
And Dragon's like, your friend likes to talk to Angel. And Angel's like, so much, he's even right sometimes. The man I remember couldn't be stolen from so easily. And Dragon's like, well, it was not stolen. It just disappeared. I believe it was predestined. And he's like, well, my charges are not few. And then you open up, up to the rest of the chamber and you just see, like, an endless.
Lined with thousands of coffins. And I was like, maybe it's time to get an apprentice or two or an assistant or come up with some sort of, like, automated system that tells you when coffins just.
[01:22:51] Speaker B: Amazon. Do you like Amazon?
[01:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Come on, man. Get with the times. Astronauts.
Let's go.
[01:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Technology.
[01:23:02] Speaker A: Let's go. Don't let the caveman win so easily, Dragon.
[01:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:23:06] Speaker A: And then Angel's like, how far does this go down? And asks a question. And Dragon's like, all the way. All the way through the Earth.
[01:23:14] Speaker B: He did ask a question. He did ask the question.
[01:23:16] Speaker A: He did.
Dragon's like, I'll answer questions from you, but not.
[01:23:21] Speaker B: He likes Angel. No, not the yapper.
[01:23:25] Speaker A: So dragons like Illyria was a great power. So great that after millions of years dead, somewhere on this Earth, she still has. Has it. Still has acolytes. Wouldn't it be really cool if one of these old ones, like, rises in the reboot or the continuation or something like that'd be kind of cool.
Like, we get. We get to find out about another old one. Or like, we find Illyria again or something.
[01:23:45] Speaker B: Be kind of cool, perhaps.
[01:23:48] Speaker A: So then, in the science lab, Gun is still glaring at Nox as Nox tells about the acolytes, of which he is many, apparently. LA used to be where Illyria's kingdom was. It was supposed to teleport back to the base of its power, but the continents drifted, which they do. I had others help me get it here, but then it got stuck in. Would you believe it? Customs. He pulls a paper out of his pocket and says, but you took care of that. You signed the order to bring it into the lab so you could get another brain boost. And Gun just looks horrified and disgusted, and he says, angel's gonna save her. And Knox says, what he's fighting against is older than the concept of time. I couldn't stop it. There's nothing left to do now but wait. Wait and try and figure out exactly what you want to tell your. And then Gun just grabs a metal canister and just starts beating at Knox.
Understandable. Absolutely understandable.
[01:24:38] Speaker B: But he didn't know.
Oh, this is so cruel. This is so cruel to Gun.
[01:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:24:44] Speaker B: To be the one that signed the papers that brought the sarcophagus here. Like, he didn't know. And I know that he's going to. Like, this is going to be a thing now with Gun, where he's going to blame himself for this.
[01:24:56] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah.
[01:24:57] Speaker B: Horrible, Horrible.
[01:25:00] Speaker A: So then in Fred's apartment, she's just in so much pain, and Wesley's trying to unpackage and hypodermic syringe, but it breaks before entering her skin. And Fred says, oh, God, I've sinned. I've sinned and I'm being punished. See, that's the part. It's just like, oh, my gosh.
She says, I don't even know what's wrong. I never got a B minus before. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Make it. Make it stop. And Wesley is just in tears and can't do anything to help her.
And then, well, Drogan says that Illyria has been freed. Spike says, yeah, it's been freed. Why do you think we're here? Drogan starts to glare at Spike. And then Spike's like, and what's your favorite color? What's your favorite song? Who's the goalkeeper for Manchester United? How many fingers am I holding up? You want to kill me? Try, but I don't have time for. Your quirk works. Dragan says the power to draw back Illyria lies in there. It requires a champion who has traveled from where it lies to where it belongs. And then Angel's like, all right, well, you got two of us right here. And then Dragon says, but if we bring the sarcophagus back to the well, it will draw Illyria out of your friend and into every single person between here and there. It will become the mystical equivalent of airborne. It will claw into every soul in its path, keep from being trapped. Entire cities, tens, maybe hundreds of thousands will die in agony. If you save her.
So if they just brought Fred with them, they could have done it.
[01:26:22] Speaker B: But would she have made the trip?
Maybe.
[01:26:27] Speaker A: And I understand why they didn't, because they're thinking.
[01:26:29] Speaker B: But they need the sarcophagus, do they not?
[01:26:33] Speaker A: Maybe they do. Yeah, probably the sarcophagus and also the essence.
[01:26:37] Speaker B: And Fred.
[01:26:38] Speaker A: Yeah, and Fred as well.
[01:26:41] Speaker B: But then Fred have had to go in the sarcophagus. Like, what? How? How do they get it out of her?
[01:26:48] Speaker A: Maybe they draw it out of her, but.
[01:26:50] Speaker B: Like an exorcism?
[01:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
But then what I don't understand is it clings to every single person on its way there. What makes it stop clinging to Fred? Like, I would think this would mean that Fred would also die along with everybody else. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't make sense that everybody else would die, but not Fred. I feel like this is kind of a lose, lose situation where Fred is gonna die either way.
So Dragan says, this is a place of madness. I'll prepare the spell. Your choice. And then we just have this haunting moment where they're both looking down on either side of the bridge. Angel says, tell with the world.
Goes to follow Dragan. And then in Fred's apartment, Fred's still weak but seemingly more lucid now.
And she says, why did we go there? Why did we think we could beat it? It's evil, Wesley. It's bigger than anything. And then she starts panicking. Backing up against the headboard is hallucinating. I'm with him. He won't leave me now. We're so close.
And then she says, that was bad. It's. But it's better now. You won't leave me. Wesley says, I won't. And then she says, my boys. I walk with heroes. Think about that. And Wesley starts crying and says, you are one. She says, superhero. And this is my power to not let them take me. Not me.
And then she says, he's with me again. And then back at the deeper well, angel says to Spike, essentially, well, not yet. But he comes back to tell Spike that, like, we just can't do this. And Spike says, this goes all the way through to the other side. So I figure there's a bloke somewhere around New Zealand standing on a bridge like this. When looking back down at us, all the way down, there's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known. An angel looks on with tears in his eyes because he knows, like, there's nothing they can do.
[01:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Cue the Leonardo DiCaprio meme where he's pointing at the TV.
Oh, for the title.
[01:28:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
Snapping his fingers.
[01:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:28:53] Speaker A: Anyway, all right. Fred's apartment. And now Wesley's holding her in his arms. Joss Whedon admits he became emotional during the scene in which Fred dies. He says, I cried man tears when I wrote it and when I filmed it and when I edited it. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever filmed. Amy Acker agrees, saying, we kept crying while we were just reading the script, saying, we're not going to have any tears left. Of course, that didn't really hold true. The final death scene was challenging for Alexis Denisov as well, who says there's a sort of tightening that happens with each scene where you feel it just getting worse and worse. And I remember when we were shooting it, that that was what was choking me up. The situation of losing Fred was becoming more and more real and closer.
Also, the fact I just can't watch this episode without remembering that Joss, like, pitched the idea and might have even given the first script to Amy Acker and Alexis Denisov at Alexis Denisoff's wedding.
[01:29:45] Speaker B: What a great wedding gift.
[01:29:46] Speaker A: I'm just imagining Joss, like, Alexis, I know you're you. You need to go, like, down the aisle and wait for Allison, but I need you to come here. For a second. And, like, he's, like, showing him the script. And Allison's over there, like, where's Alexis?
[01:30:01] Speaker B: She starts finding out about the most devastating day of filming he'll ever.
This is the best day of my life, Joss.
[01:30:10] Speaker A: He's over there. Like, I set them up. They're together because of me.
Anyway, whatever.
Anyway. All right. So Fred's like, will you kiss me? Wesley kisses her, and she says, would you have loved me? Wesley says, I've loved you since I've known, you know, that that's not. I think, maybe even before.
So I know this is meant to be romantic given, you know, the context, but it just. It's hard to see it as romantic given the fact that Wesley has often idealized Fred and she's kind of his dream girl. And, like, the whole rag and bones shop of the heart that we talked about, how he wants this story in the end and wants this fairy tale, and Fred dying now means that Wesley's never really gonna get to see if it would have worked. And Fred will always be idealized to him.
[01:30:59] Speaker B: I just. It's hard for me because I watch these scenes, and I do feel a lot for them because I think the actors are just doing such a great job of.
[01:31:09] Speaker A: This could not work.
Have these two.
[01:31:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly. But at the same time, I'm just not. I'm not invested in this relationship because it hasn't been a relation. It's only been an episode. Not even.
And that's why, outside of, like, these particular scenes, I don't feel like I don't mourn the loss of this relationship or what could have been, you know, Even though I know that that's going to be a huge story motivator, a storyline thing for Wesley moving forward.
Yeah. It's just.
I just wish there was more.
[01:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:31:49] Speaker B: You know?
[01:31:51] Speaker A: Okay. So then Fred apologizes and says, I need to talk to my parents. They have to know I wasn't scared, that it was quick, that I wasn't scared. She starts convulsing. She says, oh, God. Wesley looks her in her eyes and says, you have to fight. You don't have to talk. Just concentrating on fighting. Just hold on. She says, I'm not scared. I'm not scared. I'm not scared. She can barely hold herself up. And she says, please, Leslie, Wesley, why can't I stay? And she just like, why can't I stay? And then she just goes still and limp. Oh, my gosh.
[01:32:20] Speaker B: That's genuinely one of the most horrifying shots I've ever seen. Like, just her laying there begging, why can't I stay?
Oh, my God.
[01:32:30] Speaker A: And then saying, I'm just so scared. Yeah. It's very viscerally real, like.
[01:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:32:38] Speaker A: And then Wesley sobs and begins to beg. And then as he's hugging her, Fred's eyes change to this blue. She starts twitching and convulsing, kicks her body away from Wesley so hard that it sends him across the room. She falls to the floor.
Both us and Wesley watch her convulse. And then all of a sudden, like, we don't see anything else. And then it's silence. And then Fred stands. But her hair, eyes, and the edges of her face are royal blue.
And she looks down at her arm and hand to examine it kind of like moves her jaw, flexes her fingers. And in a very, very different voice from Fred's, says, this will do. And we're like, what?
[01:33:20] Speaker B: What the hell? A smurf?
[01:33:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
Lyria, she turned into a smurf, literally. But she's just like. She's like, wesley, Wesley, Wesley. And then she's like, that will do.
[01:33:35] Speaker B: And we're like, oh, my God.
Imagine watching this for the first time ever and this happens. Like, I. I probably was mind blown. I was probably like. Like my brain probably broke.
[01:33:46] Speaker A: Oh, I was. I can tell you the first time I watched this, what, five years ago or whatever. I did not know Illyria the character existed.
[01:33:55] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
No spoilers at all.
[01:33:58] Speaker A: I didn't know. I didn't know about Illyria.
Like, I had heard. I had heard the name Illyria. I had no clue that was Fred.
[01:34:05] Speaker B: Right.
[01:34:06] Speaker A: So I thought Fred was gonna live the entire time.
And then we got to the end and I just was like, she's dying. And then this popped up and I was like, instantly. Netflix Next episode. Next episode. I have to see what happens. And I just mind blown with how well Amy Aard plays.
[01:34:26] Speaker B: She just switches.
[01:34:27] Speaker A: Completely different character. Completely different character.
Insane. And that was crazy.
[01:34:32] Speaker B: I love that for her though. Like, what a. I also love a great way to showcase her talent. Honestly, she's so talented.
[01:34:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:34:40] Speaker B: And this was just like a master class, that last scene, especially. Just beautiful.
[01:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah. That's her entire resume right here. All she had to do is just like cut that literally, including with her as Illyria, and then send that in and be like, so I can play either one of those characters.
[01:34:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No big deal.
[01:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it. For all the reasons we said. It's hard and it sucks. And I wish we could have seen the end of Fred's story in a much more empowering way. But, like, selfishly, as a podcaster, it's going to be so fun to talk about Illyria.
[01:35:10] Speaker B: So I have heard that maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm making this up, but I've read it somewhere where in season six, there was gonna be a storyline where Illyria and Fred were basically going to be like, sharing a body. Like, Fred was going to be able to kind of break through a little bit forward. Yeah, that would have been unbelievably cool.
[01:35:34] Speaker A: That was always like, you get Fred.
[01:35:36] Speaker B: Back a little bit, but then she also has these like, really cool powers and really cool, like, to see Fred.
[01:35:43] Speaker A: Kind of wrestle with Illyria and be like, like, she. I love that idea because she's so strong and I, I'm not going to give in to this. And I like when this was edited or, sorry, when this was written and films, they didn't know the show was done at this point.
So they had every Joss, had every plan to bring Fred back. And so all of this stuff wasn't supposed to be as gut wrenching with the mindset of like, Fred's gonna come back, Fred's gonna bleed through because that's how determined she is to be autonomous and all that stuff. But obviously that doesn't happen.
[01:36:17] Speaker B: That would have been so good, like, so good as like an end game goal to like have that duality for Fred. I really wish we would have been able to see that. And I wonder, I don't know if you've. I don't think you've read the season six comics, but I wonder if that's something that happened for the people who have read it.
[01:36:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if they actually did happen. I know it was planned, but yeah.
[01:36:39] Speaker B: That would have been so unbelievably cool. What an interesting concept, especially with someone who can pull.
[01:36:45] Speaker A: Pull both of those things off. And I'm sure we would have probably had a few scenes there where. I don't know if you saw the original Spider man movies with Toby Maguire and with what's his name. It's like Willem Dafoe. Well, those scenes with Willem Dafoe switching back and forth between Green Goblin and Osborne, it would have been. I bet you that we would. Had. We would have had a few scenes of Amy Acker switching back and forth from Illyria to Fred and it would have been really, really fun.
Well, shoulda woulda, coulda, man, such a bummer. But overall, very entertaining episode. Heartbreaking episode. Well written, well acted, executed, all that stuff. But obviously there's a tinge of, you know, fridging and all that other stuff, and it just kind of is a big shadow looming over the whole thing. Yeah.
[01:37:37] Speaker B: Yeah, there is, unfortunately.
[01:37:39] Speaker A: Yeah. But moving on from here, it's going to be exciting to talk about Illyria. It's going to be exciting to talk about how this is going to affect Wesley and Spike and the rest of the gang. Like, I think, if anything, this episode did a great job of showing how much Fred impacts all of these characters. So moving forward, it's gonna hopefully, I mean, Gun is going to be affected by this, Lauren, all of these characters. So that is going to be fascinating to talk about. About for sure. But.
All right, listeners, let us know your thoughts on this episode about just Fred and her demise and how the show has treated its female characters and what you guys think. Do you guys enjoy this episode? Is this a hard watch for you?
What do you think about, like, all the history, the old ones? Do you guys think astronauts, cavemen? Which one would win?
Lots of.
Lots of dilemmas, you know. So, as always, thanks so much for listening, you guys, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us@ InvestigatingAngelpodcastmail.com.
