Show Notes
Mourning Fred's death, Angel and his friends vow to find a way to bring her back, which leads to a confrontation with the ancient god Illyria, who now occupies Fred's body.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're Talking about Season 5, Episode 16, Shells. Written and directed by Stephen. Tonight. Aired March 3, 2004 Technically, this episode would be like a part two from a hole in the World, since it begins immediately after the events of the last episode ended. And it basically, like, it just feels like a very, like, nicely self contained story with these two. Not self contained, but like a nice bookend to the last episode. What'd you think of it, though?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I. I thought it was good. I thought it was necessary.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Like, to follow like, last episode with this episode, we needed to kind of know what, like, I, I really liked it that the gang was trying to save Fred because you don't usually see that. Right. Like, usually if something happens like that, they're just kind of. Oh, that usually happens at the end of.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: And then they've kind of accepted that that's it. But I enjoyed just seeing, like, everybody has a button that was pushed with Fred. Like, angel was like, he lost Cordelia the same exact way gun. Because he signed the papers. Like, everybody had something where they were desperately trying to, like, make this not happen.
So I really enjoyed that part of it.
Yeah, I thought it was a great episode. We got some lore on Illyria, the little weasel got shot.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Goodbye, good riddance.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: But yeah, I thought, I thought it was good. Action packed. I don't know. What did you think?
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I actually enjoyed this episode a lot more than the last one. I felt like there was just some really good stuff. That final scene between Illyria and Wesley.
Gorgeous. So beautiful. I'm. I find, or I have found that I really love Stephen Tonight's episodes that he writes and directs. Obviously there's some that he's written that have not been my favorite, but I feel like those episodes, it was more the.
The story direction that he was given and he had to write around Versus. This one was really interesting. It felt like it was more up his alley. It's something very similar to what you would have seen in his show Daredevil. Um, and I feel like he, tonally, is a really good fit for Joss Whedon. They work really well together. Um, and I just find he writes really beautiful stuff and the stuff that he directs ends up being, like, really great. And he, he likes a lot of grittier Stuff, and I just really enjoy that. Um, I felt like there was a lot of depth to this episode, the fallout. I appreciated we got some harmony and seeing her talking about Fred and their friendship, you know, as brief as it was. But we did actually see that on screen. So I appreciated that. There was some talk about that. There was a lot of parall flows back to season four, Wesley, season three, Wesley, and some really, like, cool moments with that. And Elyria, of course. Fantastic. And some of the best, like, special effects and visual effects of the season, of the show, honestly, are really great fight scene.
Amy Acker is incredible.
So, yeah, I. I really. I really did enjoy this episode a lot.
Yeah. All right. So Shells. It's so funny. Like, I talk a lot about the titles and how amazing they are. Mostly, like, mainly, I will say, over on Buffy, it's very rare that there's an episode title that doesn't have, like, a double or triple meaning. I find that angel has been kind of hit or miss. But this is one of those that I feel like this is such an interesting title, and it works. It's very aptly named. Like, we think of shells as, like, the aftermath of explosions and bullets. Kind of like everyone's lives after the death of Thread. Just going around and there's, like, glass everywhere and just kind of picking up all the pieces and trying to fit everything together.
You also have shells as, like. You think of it as protective barriers, like on the outside of nuts, seeds, or crustaceans. And it's kind of like the armor that these characters are putting on to protect themselves. Like, we're watching Wesley kind of harden again, but he's hollow on the inside.
And I also just kind of like the idea that shells also kind of implies a transition as well. This idea of, like, you have snails and crabs. Like, once they outgrow a shell, they'll move on to another one. And so this episode really marks a transition in a lot of ways. This one in the last one for the series and for, like, up until the end of the season and for the characters and stuff. And so I just think it's just very, very interesting. And, of course, I think of the quote from Fred back in Sacrifice where she says, is that the world we're fighting for the right to be heartless, an uncaring she, to be dead inside. What we did, I felt it, every bit of it. And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside. Well, I don't know about you, but I'd take that over being a shell any day. And I just like, you can't tell me that's not intentional. That feels so intentional. And the word shells was used like 4ish times in this episode. And each time it was just so pointed.
And it's like, it's meant to just like, enforce the idea that Fred is actually dead and gone. But also this idea that we get at the very end between Fred and Elyria of, like, what else is there besides grief in this heavy, heavy world? Like, in we know that there's love and hope and joy and all that stuff, but does it outweigh the grief that we're all ultimately going to feel? And I really loved how this episode tied everything back to this season's premise of conviction and finding purpose and creating meaning out of something.
And I think this episode made a really gutsy choice by not having Illyria be the typical Big bad and actually very much humanizing her, which is so interesting. So, yeah, long winded. But I. I think this episode is actually pretty deep and it was so nice to have something to like, ooh, this is exciting, you know, but all right, so you guys know what's coming next. Critically touched, says Shell starts with this point's a running gag. Shell starts with pain and grief and ends with melancholy despair. The the review was actually fantastic. I would highly encourage anyone to read the whole thing. But they say, they say. And yet to that same season weed and viewer, its plot actually is much more surprising and subversive. At first, we think we have been in a place like this before in Innocence and After Seeing Red. To some extent. This happened in Reunion. The friend turned the big bad antagonist emerging halfway through the season are old staples of angel and it's its previous show. Illyria seems to fit right in this mold as she spends the episode flinging about our grieving heroes like Ninepins plots to gather her army of doom and conquer the earth. She has the charisma as well as the power to be a credible villain, eviscerating friend and foe alike with carefully dosed contempt. It is she who coins the episode's title by cruelly referring to Fred as the Shell. I'm in. No more than half an hour later, we see a lost God king and a broken human opening up to one another and finding a twisted sort of comfort in each other's presence.
The game has changed again, and at the episode's end, the immediate threat has gone and the status quo has almost been restored. Almost, but not quite.
What's left of Fred may have returned to the fold may have returned to the fold. There may be no new grand antagonist to fight on, new apocalypse, or a new apocalypse threatening the Earth. But the impact these two episodes have had on the characters is here to stay. Nearly everything that comes next is driven by what took place here. It has left nobody left unchanged. And this episode is where we see these changes happens. And like, the brilliance of this episode is the fact that Illyria is not defeated by the angel team, but she's defeated by very human emotions. Loss, grief, purposelessness. And moving forward from that and trying to find conviction again. And in one episode, Illyria must find her reason for living, just like the rest of the team. And it's so fascinating how all of a sudden she's feeling the exact same thing that, like angel and the rest have felt for almost the entire season. And that is such a really interesting place to be with our characters.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: So I have a couple of quotes from Deni and then also from Amy Acker in kind of like the transition into becoming Illyria and stuff. And some of the thought processes. I had talked about how Joss had asked Amy and Alexis to meet them for coffee and he told them that he was going to kill Fred. And then how he gave the scenes to Alexis and Amy at Alexis's wedding. But then she talks about how after the honeymoon, Alexis and Amy went over to Joss's house and he had all these lights in his house that were different colored and they were reading the scenes. And he says, I want her to kind of move almost like an insect. So. So we were experimenting with different moves. And then he started changing the colors of lights in the room. He had a red light, then he tried a yellow light. Then he got the blue light and he was like, oh, yeah, she's going to be blue. So we got to develop the character in a way that you wouldn't normally get to do. And then Stephen tonight says, Joss wrote and directed A Hole in the World. And then I did the next episode, Shells, where you see Illyria for the first time because Joss was directing it and she dies at the end of his episode. He directed the first scene at the top of my episode. So the very first scene is directed by Joss, which is kind of cool.
I had something to work off of. But I cannot tell you how stunned we all were with Amy Acker's performance. She would just give this spot on chilling performances. Illyria, I call cut. And then she would be like, Amy again, who was the sweetest woman in the world. She'd be like, was that okay? You want me to do anything different? And I'm like, holy.
And then Kelly Manor says, amy Acker was just amazing in that moment. I never forgot that transition that she made. Illyria was, in a lot of ways, a better character than Fred was so sad. I loved Fred, but. Well, maybe they wrote it wrong. Maybe they. They could have done more, but whatever. I loved Fred, but Illyria was fascinating. The way that Amy created this entirely different person for us. Within seconds of seeing it on screen, I was like, holy. What happened there? And then Ben Edlin says, if you were going to cast someone who. Whom we'd only seen play Fred, the last thing you would ask for is super ice queen, strong woman. Because a lot of women who can do the kind of wilting violet thing, they don't have the Gina Davis thing of really putting iron in. There's people who can do the accountant, and then there's people who can do the action.
It's like you're asking a person to just pull it, like an action hero trope, which is a villain element, out of their toolkit without casting them for it. She did amazing.
James Marster says that he was fooled by Amy. He says Fred is very close to the Amy that she presents the world just absolutely sweet and loving, patient and kind. And I had no faith that she could do Illyria at all. And I had no idea how talented she was. I just remember being blown over when I first saw her as Illyria. She just rocked it. It was amazing. I should know better because she's a great actor. You get fooled. They're so good. You're just like, oh, that's just them.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: I feel like James Marsters makes this shit up at this point. Like, there's no way that's a real James Barster.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes there's, like, things he pulls out.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: And I'm like, he just likes to be dramatic. Like, he just. He makes his story seem more dramatic just so he can say that, like, oh, my God, it was blown.
I didn't expect it.
Meanwhile, he's probably there in the corner, like, go, Amy.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Yeah. He's over there. Like, whoa, amazing.
David Furey talks about. Yeah. How brilliant she was. He says, the death of Fred and birth of Illyria was pretty remarkable. That's all Joss. He loves Amy, but he loves pain as well.
You want to kill a character, and Amy was such an amazing actress that he went, I'm going to kill Fred because that's going to be devastatingly painful. And I'm keeping Amy, but she's going to become this new character. It's brilliant. Even as you see Illyria, you hold the pain of Fred's death and the knowledge that that's. That's not Fred. It was an amazing group of actors.
And then tonight talks about how he really liked that she got to kind of stretch her acting chops. He says one of the great tragedies about the show being canceled at the end of season five is Joss had really great plans of where to take Illyria. It was also so bittersweet with Wesley still being in love with her, but trying not to be because he hates her. She actually killed the woman he loves, but she's kind of sympathetic, and it was all just so juicy.
And then Amy says, I would say playing Illyria was definitely harder than playing Fred because I had the makeup and the different movements and the different voice. I had been so accustomed to being Fred that, you know, it's kind of scary when you've got everyone used to seeing you in one part and then you show up the next day and you're like, I'm this different person, and it's really different. At the end of the first week of Illyria, one of the camera guys came over to me and he was like, amy, we just wanted to say we're sorry we haven't been talking to you and hugging you like usual this week. It's just that we're all a little scared of you.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: I thought you were gonna say it's because we don't want to be blue.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Like, we don't want to get on us.
And then she says, I was like, oh, that's nice.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: I read somewhere I need to look it up, but I remember that reading that she actually spray painted the top of her forehead and, like, the bits of her hair, she didn't actually dye it because it was just supposed to be kind of a temporary thing because they only had a few episodes left for the season.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: I assumed it was just like, a wig or something.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll have to look it up. I remember, like, listening to something a while back, and then the plan was to go more like temporary or wear a wig if they went into, like, the next season and stuff. But that obviously didn't happen.
Yeah. And then Joss talks about, you know, killing her and how it's an opportunity you can only have on a fantasy show. And she pulled it off magnificently. David Fury again says that Josh's. This is interesting. Josh's idea for Illyria was in the Mix a long time before angel was canceled. In fact, if we knew we were going to be canceled, we may not have done it, if only because we barely had any time to do anything with the character. It was almost as if Fred died in vain. Oh, you think so?
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: You think so?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: So you guys are self aware.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: But I do think that that last thing was very interesting because it's like I. At this point, we haven't. Still haven't reached the episode that they know that the show has been cancelled. And so you have this massive shift happening right now, and there's only a couple of episodes left. And I find the next episode interesting is the next one underneath. Because that's the one that they found out. It was while they were shooting that episode that they.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the next one.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Which. Oh, my gosh. Then what do you do? You have to, like, just wrap it.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: Yeah, there's like four episodes left after that. Five episodes.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah. That's not. Not that many. So. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to think about, like, if they had known season five was going to be their last season, I know they would have rewrote things a lot differently. But, yeah, we'll never know.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: We'll never know.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: So anyway, I thought that was interesting and obviously, like, such a huge change for the show and. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it.
All right, so we pick up right where we left off. Wesley says Fred. The difference, like the contrast between him calling for Fred versus realizing that it's Illyria. The softer, higher tone voice for Fred and then the Illyria when he realizes who it is. It's just so good.
So she walks past Wesley again. The insect, the way that she, like, moves her.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Body. She doesn't blink once. This entire episode I watched, and it's so unnerving. It's really, really scary.
It's so scary. Honestly, I wasn't even noticed that.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: But I'm gonna have to watch for that moving forward.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I wonder if she blinks at all on camera. But she didn't blink this entire episode, and it was very scary.
Also. Probably like her eyeballs hurt by the end of the time filming because she was wearing the.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: She was wearing too.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: And then not blinking.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: So then Wes realizes that it's Illyria. She turns away from the mirror, and then she says, my name. You would presume to speak by name. Love the contrast to the end of the episode when she finally calls him by name.
And then Wesley backs away slowly. He still has Tears on his face. He hasn't even had the chance to grieve fully. She says, because I have returned in the body of the human. You think you can speak to me? It's disgusting. Disgusting. And then Wesley's trying to figure out if Fred is still inside. And he asks, who's Winifred Burkle? And then Illyria says, I thought the humans would have long died out by now. Instead, you've grown bold. And then he says, you don't know who Fred is. And she says, nor care. Bleed at me no longer. We're done. Walks away. He picks up a battle ax and then swings it at her neck. But of course, it just breaks, completely bouncing off her head. She doesn't even flinch. And then she goes, oh, now I remember. Looks at her body and goes, winifred Burkle is the shell I'm in. Oh, cold.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: So cold.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Horrible.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: That one hurts.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then Wesley's just like, well, this is hopeless. And then he just, like, sits down on Fred's bed and says, she's the woman you killed. Illyria says, this is grief. I'm watching human grief. It's like offal in my mouth.
Wesley, like, gets a thought and is like, well, if you stay here, it's going to be miserable. You're going to taste it every second, every day. And he, like, opens the curtains and says, look, humans rule the Earth. And he's like, they're going to last for a millennia. They're like roaches crawling everywhere. And then he was like, go back, sleep until the humans are gone. They're stupid and weak. They'll kill each other off. And then you can return to the world you deserve. And he says, leave this shell. And Illyria turns on him and says, you know why? Like, I can take over this. I can't. Like, yeah, like, I might as well just go find my army. And like, wow. I have work to do. Yeah, you're right. I should go kill all these roaches. I was like, well done, Wes. You have now created a super villain.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Her villain origin story was this.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: She's like, oh, roaches. I could get. I can take care of roaches. Yeah, I've got it back, you know. Just got to go grab Noxie and get my new, like, you know, uniform and mask up. Let's go. Chop chop.
So then we're back in the jet with Spike trying to get drunk on tiny two ounce bottles of Jack Daniels. And he's like, ugh, can't even get drunk. Why would anyone ever make a bottle this small and, like, holds it, like, really far away.
And then Angel's still just, you know, devastated. And Spike tells him, thousands would have died if we'd saved her. She wouldn't have wanted that. And angel says, yeah, I tried call.
There was no answer. Spike's like, I guess she's gone then.
And then angel says, what does that mean, really?
And he's like, like, what does it mean that she's gone? And Spike's like, well, you know, it means you stay that way unless you're a vampire or the ghost of one that saved the world. Or Buffy. I was like, buffy, like crumbs so.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Many times this season.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: I know.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: After a drought of two seasons.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: I living for it.
And they're like, hang on. Death doesn't have to be the end. Like, not in our world. Like, rules can be broken. And I love that they're addressing this because this would be everybody's first thought when they're watching the show. People come back all the time, right? Fred can come back.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: And I love that they bring up Willow later on because Willow has. Is the only person who has purposefully resurrected somebody from the dead.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Yep.
Yep.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: The big guns.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah, she is the big Gun. She's Buffy.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah, she is Buffy.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Willow goes, yeah.
So then in Gun's office, we have a bloody and beaten Knox sitting slumped in an office chair. He's bound. And Harmony's standing next to Gun. She's like, we're gonna torture him. Gun's, like, thinking about it. Harmony's, like, rubbing her hands. Can I help? I'm really good at it. And Gun says, thanks, but this is kind of personal. And Harmony says, why do you think I want to help? Because I've got some kind of bl. Blood lust. Well, okay, that too. But Fred's my friend. We went out for drinks all the well, once. And if Point Dexter here hadn't done anything to do with hurting her, then I'm in for a big fat pound of flesh. And I really, like. I remember us talking about that last episode because I was like, I wanted to see Harmony. And I feel like this episode gave us a lot of her when it came to Fred. And I really enjoyed that.
So then Wesley walks in, and Gun tells him that Angel's on his way back. Wesley seems kind of, like, out of it. He's, like, unaware. Like, he sees Knox is tied up. He's kind of, like, scattered until both Harmony and Gun tell him that Knox knows what's going on. He's been hiding it the whole time. Wesley Just like zeros in, goes, he's involved in this. And then gets angry at Gun and says, why didn't you tell me? And then Knox says, yeah, buddy, why didn't you? Gun gets defensive and is like, shut up. And he's like, obviously trying to mitigate the situation so that nobody, like, you could tell.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Gun wants to figure out how to. Yeah, he wants to figure out how to fix it or he wants to figure out how he's going to tell people so that it doesn't blow up in his face, which, I mean, obviously ends up blowing up in his face because.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Don't lie.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
And Wesley says, it doesn't matter anymore. Fred's gone. The pain on Gun's face and the look of shame is just absolutely heart wrenching. And then Knox just starts giggling and it was like, oh, it was beautiful. And Wes just looks incredulous, like after seeing Fred suffering. And Knox says, tell them what happened. And Wesley says, the infection consumed her, took over her body. Guns like, well, then it's still Fred, right? And Wesley says, she's gone. Guns, like, you don't know that.
And then Knox says, she's so much more than just Fred now. Beyond flesh, beyond perfection. I loved Fred. I really did. And of course Wes is staring at him like, are you kidding me? You, like, insane person.
And then Knox is like, she had a warmth that took you in and held you until everything cold and distant melted away. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Like all this stuff. He's like, that's why I chose her. Like, it's so disgusting.
It's just disgusting.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: And without pentagonizing her.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah, he is. And there's just like, he's created her into an object of worship. And it's so interesting, like, how the show has been like, like, like we've been talking about how the show's been doing that with the men in the love triangles and stuff. And now they like literally did that with Fred. Like, it's just very. It's very interesting.
But without changing his expression, Wesley channels season four. Wesley grabs a handgun and just points it at Knox and guns like, hang on, we need him. I know how you feel. And Wesley says, do you know? And starts choking up. He's like, you didn't feel her die? She was shaking with pain and terrified and so brave. And she was better than anyone I know and better than. And then he looks at Knox and says, she's gone. Angel pops in and is like, I know. And he says, now let's get her back. And we're all like, hope. Yes. Let's get her back.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: What's the plan, boys?
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. So now we're in Angel's office, and Gun's like, well, okay, England was a bust. Angel's like, well, not entirely. We found out where the sarcophagus this came from. There's thousands more just like it. And they're like, Drogan couldn't help. And Lauren. Oh, my gosh. Poor, sweet Lauren says, I should have seen it. I should have seen everything that Knox, like, was thinking when he's saying, for me and Guns, like, it's not your fault. Obviously feeling shame for himself. And Lauren's like, if I concentrated better. And angel starts to get into the plan, and Lauren just goes, I'm so. I'm sorry, Angel. Kate likes, I. I got nothing and just leaves. And I just.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: He. We don't see him for the rest of the episode.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Except for the very. When he's just drinking a Sea Breeze. Or, like, not Sea Breeze. It was whatever drink he and Fred would have together. Like, it's devastating. Oh, my gosh. That one hits me the hardest with Lauren, because he's just. He's always not a fighter. Yeah.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: And he's always, like, put in these situations, which I think is important. And we need to remember this.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: For later.
But he's, like, been pushed to his limits so many times by this team, and, like, they demand so much of him, and I think he's starting. It's starting to wear on him now.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: It's demoralizing him.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: And honestly, he is one of the characters that I truly look at as an innocent in the show. And it just. It makes it. It just makes it even more devastating as time goes on.
So then Guns, like, you know, all right, well, Lawrence. Right. Like, we should have seen this coming. Angel's like, it wouldn't have made a difference. Drogan said the sarcophagus was preordained to be released. Guns like, well, that's not completely true. I played a round of pinata with Laboy while you were gone. The sarcophagus was stuck in customs, and it should have stayed there, but someone got it out. Wesley says, who? And Gun says, I'm working on it, when the obvious answer is me.
So then he takes. Or he gets ready to take off. And Wesley's like, all right, yeah, yeah, you do that. You take care of it. Like, not a moment to lose. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be so painful. Like, when it's all revealed, angel tells Wesley that he needs to, you know, stay sharp. And Wesley's like, there's no Fred anymore. He's like, you know, there's nothing left but a shell. Angel's like, well, then we're gonna find a way to fill it back up. And they're like, yo. Spike's like, we know all about this. We, you know, it's the soul that matters. We're the experts.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Are you Spike?
[00:26:05] Speaker A: No, not at all. Not at all.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Insults for, like, three seconds.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Having a soul. Yeah. Come inside of you doesn't mean that you're an expert on it. Like, yeah. Yeah.
And I like how guns, like, well, what about if her organs have been liquefied? Spike's like, I was flash fried in a pillar of fire. Saving.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: I got better. It's totally fine. Totally fine. So Wesley looks desperately at angel and is like, all right. You think there's a chance? Angel's like, well, her soul is out there somewhere. We're gonna find it. We're gonna put it belongs. And then, you know, we'll make every son of a. Who had a hand in this pay. We're all on the same page. Guns, like, where do we start? Angel's like, we need the big guns. And Wesley goes, willow.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Willow.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: You know, they, like, gave him that line because, you know, Alexis. Dennis off's like, my wife.
He gets all excited.
And then Spike's like, oh, yes, I know all about this. She has raised the dead before. I was there when this happened.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: I was there. Yeah, well, he. He really wasn't, though. He didn't know that she.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah, no, he really wasn't. He was out of blue, but, you know.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: He saw the aftermath. Yeah, definitely. Worked great. Worked wonders.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: We all know how that went. It was just fantastic. Totally no side effects whatsoever.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: So great.
[00:27:22] Speaker A: There's like an entire season just completely devoted to it. Or. Or that, you know, like there was ramifications or anything for it either. So perfect.
So then Angel's like, all right, we're gonna track her down, get her here. And he's like, wes, you're the only one who had contact. Any idea where she was headed? Then we at Gun's office, and an arm just breaks through the glass wall. Oh, yeah. They're talking about Laria. They're trying to find Illyria. And Illyria breaks through, pulls, knocks, and into the lobby. Harmony, who's been watching him, is like, hey. And then she, like, runs out. And then she's like, oh, my God, Fred.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: You run into somebody that you went to high School with, like, in a grocery store.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: You're like, what? I love how they, like, explained it. It to Harmony earlier on, and she just still doesn't get it. Like, there's just.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no thought. Empty.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. No thoughts had. Empty. So Lyria, like, wallops her, and Harmony goes flying. And Knox is like. He's, like, gleeful over there. And he's like, I knew you'd come for me. I worship you.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Sweezle.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Yeah, he just. He's so slimy. And Olyria is like, yes, yes. Worship, yawn. And then we go to the science lab, and Illyria is standing over her sarcophagus, and Knox is just like, I've waited for you. I've loved you since I was 11. And he's like, I would stare at, you know, forbidden texts about you. My mom thought I was looking at porn. Elyria is just like, okay. And apparently he is the Koha. I think it's Kwaha Xan or something like that. He's basically her priest. And he's, like, sewed, like, bits of her. Her gems or her bones. Some bones or something under his skin. Whatever it is. It's discussing her. Her sacraments. And he's like, we're bound together. And then she's like, well, my last one was taller.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: I love how even a genderless, like, ancient God cannot deal with men in this universe.
Especially, like, little, like, dweeby, obsessive men.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: So true.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Larry is like, even she can't deal with it. And. And she's.
[00:29:28] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:29:30] Speaker B: It's. Yeah.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: As she should. 100%.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: She's like, get me an army. I don't have an army. Great. Now what do I have? Bunch of men like, arg.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: What's his name? Holden. What's his name? I keep forgetting his name. Knox.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not Holden Webster. It's Knox.
Knox. She, like, walks in there and grabs and is like, okay, fine. If I have to.
Knox is like, like, well, I may be shrinking a bit in the glory of your presence. I was like, get him, Illyria. Get him.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: And she's glory's minion.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Basically glorified minion.
Yeah. He's gonna start calling her, you know, what's your. Oh, delicious one. Or.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yes.
Silky goodness.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: Yes. All those little names that they had for her.
Honestly, I would have loved. And I know a lot of people talk about this. I would have loved to have seen Glory and Illyria meet up and have a showdown. That would have been really fun. Fun to watch.
I mean, Illyria would have completely won. But it would have been really fun to watch.
It's, you know, cavemen versus astronauts over here, but Glory versus Illyria.
So Lyria's like, this world is not how I left it. Knox is like, I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do about that.
Olyria's like, but I can. And she just, like, rips her shirt off. And, of course, you know, Knox comes right there. And so then we cut to angel, you know. You know, that's what was happening right there.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: She was, like.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: Like, purring.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: He was, like, making weird, like, gurgling noises.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: Disgusting. I hated this moment. This was such a. Guys, we have a sexy super villain moment. Let's, like, give her a cool.
Guys. This didn't need to be as sexualized as it was. It was disgusting. But whatever.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: So then back at Angel's office, he's talking to Giles, trying to figure out where Willow is. Giles ends up not telling him and then just hanging up on him. And then he.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: No, he goes to put him on hold.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:31:21] Speaker B: He's like, oh, she's astral projecting. And then Angels, like, tell her to get her astral to la. And then Giles is like, no, no, no. I gotta put you on hold. And then asks angel if he's still working at Wolverman Hart. And Angel's like, yeah, what the. Does that matter?
And then Giles is like, I'm gonna put you on hold. And then Angel's like, well, hold this.
And he hangs up the phone and throws it against the wall.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Well done. Finish the episode. You got this. This. Go. Go for it.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: No, I don't remember.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: You remember that pretty freaking well.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: With a little ad living.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: Anything with Willow, Giles and Buffy and Leia has, like. Let me write the top of my head.
All right, here it is, word for word. Just, like, repeats it immediately. I love how you're like, I haven't watched season seven of Buffy in years, and yet I know the exact moment in the exact scene in the exact episode that this one thing happened. It's so funny. You pull it out. I'm like, dang, girl. How'd you know that? First date. How'd you know that was in Potential. Like, every single time.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: Smart. Okay? You are smart brain.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: Gosh, man. I think we've been letting me do a little bit too much on this podcast.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: I don't think so.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: It's like, I'm just a girl.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: I'm just a baby.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I don't do the research.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: I'm just a baby with a Hyper fixation pulls it out.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. That's exactly what it is. Yeah, same. Everybody's like, oh, Sarah, do another podcast. I'm like, y' all don't understand.
Any podcast I do is not going to have this level of research for anything else. Anything else. Like, it's just going to be much. And I don't know if you guys can handle just vibes. Sarah, I just don't know if you're ready for that.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: I think they can handle it. I think they can handle it.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: Okay, well, I don't know if you can handle it, because I think you're going to be carrying some episodes if we do anything else. Doing what's like, sign me. Me. Take me off this checkout list. Like, I'm done. Sign me out. I'm done. Not up.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Out.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: I refuse.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: I'm a head out now. It's like that meme where spongebob and he's sitting in an armchair, and then he goes, all right, I'm gonna head out now.
[00:33:28] Speaker A: The door just, like, slams. Yeah. Yeah, that's you 100%.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: He, like, puts his hands on his knees, gets up slowly, and you know.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: Who else is out? Giles.
Giles.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Giles, man, what do you think of this? This is crazy.
So Buffy or Willow knew they would be so angry. Especially Willow, because she knew Fred.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: There's a reason Willow knew. Oh, there's a reason. It's Giles. Yeah. I think this is the same as what we were talking about earlier on in Damage, where I think that Giles is the one mainly handling the communications right now because Buffy is busy with something else, and Buffy, you know, trusts Giles. And I think Giles is not communicating everything to Buffy.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: He's making executive decisions he shouldn't be making.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I think, too, because.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: I just think, like. I mostly think, like, if Willow knew that this was happening to Fred, she would be there in an absolute heartbeat to help however way she can. Even if she can't, she would still go because she has resources that the others don't. She has powers that the others don't. So freaking Giles.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I was rooting for you, Giles Was? Yeah, I was rooting for you up until you left in season six, and then I stopped.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Giles has always been big picture guy, and so in his mind, he's going, you're. You fight for bad guys. No. Absolutely not.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: What is not black and white like that? Giles, you should know this. This is angel, the series where we live in the gray.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Well, Giles doesn't live in gray. Giles lives in black and white. And that is the problem with the Watchers Council.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: Giles lives in bitch made.
That's where he lives right now. Even though I still Giles. But whatever.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Is in denial and needs to. Frankly needs to not be a part of any sort of continuation with the slayers. Like he needs to get a nice retirement.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: You're not invited back.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: And he needs to go to a nice little cottage in England and Buffy can come up and see him for Christmases and holidays.
But he is not allowed to supervise and train any slayers.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Time for him to.
He's too mired.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: He's too mired in the old ways of doing things with the Watchers Council. You know.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: And he does. He hasn't evolved and he takes children. Which is crazy because when you think of Giles from the beginning of the show and how much he changed because of Buffy, because of like. Like how hard headed Buffy was and how determined she was to like be a girl and a slayer and made him see that too. You would think that moving forward he would be, I don't know, like evolving the same way that kind of Wesley has. But there were hate that.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Yeah. But there were signs like I think about season four restless. Where even in the one dream that he had as like Sanaya is cutting into his scalp. It's the very last section of his dream is the blood's dripping down. He's looking at the watch. He's justifying the reason that Sanaya is the way that she is. Because she didn't have a Watcher to help guide her and tell her who she's supposed to be. Like there's still a not because she.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Was imbued against her will with exactly the essence of a demon.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Right. There's a part of Giles that is so mired in that way of thinking that he's just never like, he's never going to get out of that.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: That like.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: And I think you can see bits and pieces of that with Wesley too. Like there's a part of Wesley that's not true. Be able to break out of that because they're so steeped in it. Which is why it's like that's what Giles symbolizes in season seven. Just I think to a more extreme level than I think he really should have been portrayed. There's not as much nuance there.
It needed to be balanced out with his love for Buffy.
But anyway, you guys will hear me talk about in season seven. But I think that. But it just makes a lot of sense to me that Giles would be doing all of this, though. Like, it's. It really, really does.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately, it does for sure.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: Yep. It could be that Jaws feels like he needs to be go more extreme because the Watchers Council doesn't exist. He is the Watchers Council now.
But yeah, all right. Anyways, so Wesley is like, never a witch around when you need one. And I want to scream at him, get your wife over here. Alexis, Denis, off, Like, let's go.
God's like, it'll work out. It has to G.
Wesley says I've been unreasonable because I've lost all reason, but I shouldn't be taking it out on you. Oh, my God. God. Worse. It's getting worse.
Stop.
And then Gun's like, of course feeling worse. He like, looks down and Wesley's like, I know you've done everything you can. I'm like, this is going to be so ugly when he finds out. I'm sorry. Guns like, you know, tears welling up. He says, so am I.
Angel just gets so angry and just like throws the phone against the wall and it shatters. He's like, we're on our own. Spike's like, good, because I was really wondering.
I love how they're working together. This.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: I told you.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: I told you.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: You're right. This is the first full episode where like, they are not bickering and arguing at all. Like, they're completely 100 getting.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: They're like in tune with each other's like, moods too. Like Spike and Tell. When Angel's thinking about something, they're like, like finishing each other's sentences. It's amazing. I love it.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Yep.
And then Harmony walks in, like, bruised and is like, all right, you know, Illyria took off with Noxie and then we're back in the lab and it's like fans going and like some wind whooshing. And Illyria's standing there is the sarcophagus is somehow forming a magical skin tight weapon suit bodysuit all over her.
And then all of a sudden, Knox is like, well, yeah, Knox. Like, that's amazing. Incredible, Whatever. And then all of a sudden the rest of the gang comes in and they've got a bunch of guards armed with machine guns. And Illyria says, a warrior. I was beginning to wonder if this world was void of your kind, Angel. And of course Spike, not to be left out, is like, plenty of us to go around. I'm up here too, in the back, like, raising his hand.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Pick me.
[00:39:43] Speaker A: Let me fight the blue one, please.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: The Smurf.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally.
And she's like, is this a challenge or is this all that challenges me now? And then angel says, that and a whole lot of bullets. So the guards all cock their guns, and angel starts to walk towards her. And he's like, you've taken something of ours. Something very precious. Stand down. I promise we won't destroy you taking it back. Your choice, she says. I decline. She grabs angel, throws him through the window. He flies through Fred's, like, glass window that overlooks the lab and then through her main window outside. It's a really cool, like, mirror to the very first episode of angel where angel threw the guy who heads up Wolfram and Hart out of his own window. And so then, as that's happening, Gun yells, take her. And then with a wave of her hand, Illyria creates this wave of some sort that when it reaches the other, slows their movements down to super slow motion. As West, Gun and Spike try to approach her, they are virtually frozen. Illyria is able to move in real time, grabs Knox by the lapels. I love how she just, like, grabs him by, like, the throat. And then walks out of the lab past the others without their notice, accidentally knocking beakers and vials to the ground. And then we go to the outside, and we see her walking out of the building with Nox as Angel is still falling from the window in slow motion above them. And then she's long gone by the time angel finally hits the ground. It is. Is a really cool display of Illyria's powers. It's very fascinating.
So angel falls and lands. Looks horrible. Back in the lobby. He comes up with Harmony, and she's like, sorry, boss, maybe if I stopped her back in Gun's office. And Angel's just, like, in pain. He's like, did she toss you out of a window? She's like, no. He's like, then you're one up on me. And then he sees Wesley and Spike asks what they got. And Spike's like, smoke and mirrors. And they're like, you know, she's gone. She got what she came for. And I love how Harmony's included now. It's like the writers were like, guys, we don't actually have any more women left, so we need to start including Harmony a little bit more.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: That's exactly what they're doing.
One million percent.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: So embarrassing for them.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: It is actually in the mean credits now because I know eventually Mercedes McNabb. Oh, okay.
[00:41:57] Speaker A: I think it might be the next episode.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: But they start because Amy Acker still in the.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, she's still there. Sorry.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: She's still there. My bad.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: Wow. What a stupid question.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: It's. You almost kind of are thinking. Wow. Bye. Amy Acker. No. Amy Acker is there.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's not Amy. What?
[00:42:13] Speaker A: It's. It's Amy's cousin or twin sister?
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Twin.
[00:42:17] Speaker A: It's Spamy.
Oh, rhymes with Amy.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: What a great.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: Amy.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: Unique. Namey.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Lamy.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Lamy.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: K me.
Tammy. I'm trying to think of a name. Cammy.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Tammy.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: No.
Has to rhyme with Amy.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Amy.
Zany zany.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Sammy.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: What the.
[00:42:47] Speaker A: I've glitched.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Wait, why does it have to rhyme with Amy?
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Because twins have to rhyme. You know, like, they can just.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Their name can start with an A. Amy and Alex.
No, that's worse.
Amy.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Alhedrant.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Amy and Allegra.
With your face.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: You don't even like that option.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Amy and.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Pam.
[00:43:16] Speaker B: That's not with an A.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: Perfect. I love it. Done.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: Pam.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Pam. This is Pam.
No.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: Pam.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: Pam is in the building.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Guys, is Amy's twin a like 60 year old woman? A grandma?
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Okay. Amy and Anne. Amy and Anne.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: You're like, I don't love it, but I don't want to argue anymore.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not crazy about it, but okay.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Anyway, this is Amy's twin sister, Illyria. Come in to.
To, you know, act out the rest of the season. All right, so they're trying to discover why Illyria is able to, like, just disappear. And Angel's like, is she a teleporter? And Wesley's like, you know, I don't think so. Spike's like, I think I saw a bl and guns. Like, pulling out all these, like, you know, flash references is very funny. And Angel's like, all right, well, you know, she must be able to alter time. I was like, that is quite the intuitive leap there. And Harmony's like, well, that's it. That's not fair. We might as well give up now, guys.
There's no winning this battle. And then, like, it makes it complicated, but it doesn't change what we need to do. Wes, take the lab apart, check Knox's files, the sarcophagus, anything that can help us get Fred back. Harmony says, come on, I got a degree in tearing things up. And grabs Wes. I was like, oh, Harmony.
And then with spikes like, all right. Never a truer word. And then gun says he has a few contacts that he's going to try and shake loose. And then angel tells Spike that they're going to go and try and track Illyria down and figure out where she's headed to now. So in Angel's office, Spike asks, you know, like, how are we supposed to do this? How are we supposed to track her down? Angel says, we just do it. That's all. And Spike's like. Like, well, back in the lab, she was standing right there in front of me, but there was no scent, nothing. It's like she wasn't even there. And angel says, I know. And Spike says, look, I want Fred back as much as any of us, but seeing her there like that, maybe she really is. And then angel says, no, I lost Cordelia because something violated her. It crawled inside her and used her up. And I was like, oh.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: Oh, this line is kind of crazy, actually.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Self aware. Yeah. And it did it again.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: It's a pattern.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have the audacity to put it on screen from the mouth of the main character.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: Guys, this is so brilliant. What a brilliant idea. Guys, I've got an idea.
[00:45:42] Speaker B: Own up to our mistakes and just repeat.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. I've got. Someone's like, hey, guys, what if we gave Fred an incredible arc? She became this brilliant scientist, and she has the capability, like a fully fleshed out human being. She gets to have, like, a. A life outside of the lab, and she becomes this amazing scientist and gets to date this great guy that's not a part of the Angel Investigations team. And she, you know, develops black holes and all the stuff like that. And, like, you know, her and Harmony go out for lunch every week, and someone's like, no, I have a better idea. Guys, this is brilliant. Never been thought of before, ever. We're gonna have someone take over her body and then kill her. Isn't that just, like, genius? We've, like, literally never thought of it before. I mean, we did do Cordelia and.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Darla, but this is.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: This is brand new. Guys, this is revolutionary because Amy.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: So fun.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: We're gonna call in Pam.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: It's just. It's just like, yeah.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: What else is there to say? It's stupid.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Like, yeah.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: It's just.
Yeah. There are no words because only a, like, room full of men would come up with this idea.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: But that's. That's the thing, though. There are female writers on this team. I just think at the time, like, in media, people didn't really care about what happened to women. And especially on a show like this, that's so male focused.
I think it just kind of. To them, it's like, oh, this is. This is such an exciting story. Like, the whole Jasmine thing With Cordelia, they thought it. They all thought it was amazing. And, like, that's not to dissatisfact. Discount the fact that these stories do have really great elements to them. Like the Darla story. We really like that.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: There are parts of Jasmine that we really liked. And it's just. It's just the way they go about it that just, like, you still have to, like, service and respect your characters.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: Like, the women just as much as the men.
And it's just crazy that they acknowledge that. It's like a thing that they do and then they like, like.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Is this supposed to be satisfactory that Angel's saying this line in a very angry tone and he's very hurt by it?
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Like, the injustice of it all? Yeah, it's crazy.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's even harder because we have higher expectations for these shows because Joss supposedly wrote Buffy to be a subversion of the trope of the girl that gets killed every time by the monster and doesn't have any agency.
And so I think, because that's the premise that started everything, when we watch something like this happen, that's not to say that if this happened on any other show, it wouldn't be horrible. But there's an added layer of hypocrisy that you watch this and you're like, hang on, I. I thought this was supposed to be different, you know, and we've seen you do it differently, so I think that just makes it even worse.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. That's a good point.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Anyway, all right. In the lab, Harmony's just, like, tearing things up. She's like, never trusted that little nerd. Rumpled hair, socks that didn't match, the cute lopsided grin. And Wesley's just standing there, just staring at the sarcophagus. And he, you know, it's touching. In Harmony's like, hey, don't you think you should be wearing one of those moon suits? And he says, I think it's done all the damage it's going to. And she's like, like, great, well, I'm going to wear one because I don't trust it. And Wesley says, she was curious. That's why Fred didn't put it into containment immediately. And he says how things work, what makes them special. She was always searching for what other people couldn't see. She was just curious. I think I hate her a little for that. Then Harmony, you know, tries to soothe him, and he asks for the pry bar. And then she says, the girl of your dreams loved you. That's more than most people ever get. And here's a the thing. The. And, like, I know this is not a shocker to anyone. It's just so frustrating because it's like we are hearing explanations for why Fred did things out of Wesley's mouth, and we're also hearing Harmony say she loved Wesley when we don't even. It would have been nice to hear all these things from her. We don't even know if Fred.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: We never got the chance to.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: We truly don't know. We know because she says, would you have loved me? And he says, I think I already. Like, I do, and I think I did long before I met you. But we never hear what she thinks and what she feels. And, like, it's. It's all this stuff that just, like, rubs it all in, you know?
And then, you know, Wesley takes out all his rage on the sarcophagus, but, you know it's intentional because he ends up peeling off one of the little crystals and says that the markings refer to a series of concussions of timed intervals. This gem is the focal point of the sarcophagus. It might be useful. And then Harmony's like, oh, well, I found the cell phone. And they go through it, and thanks to Harmony's little genius brain, they look and see that the missed calls are the only things not erased, and they're able to kind of trace some stuff.
So then we cut to the creepy doctor who boosted Guns Knowledge in the next or in the previous episodes. And he's washing blood off his surgical instruments. Gun comes in, and the doctor is like, oh, I'm shocked that, you know, it's taking you this long to figure everything out.
And so Gun's like, I've been a little preoccupied. And the doctor says, Ah, yes, Ms. Burkle. Gun just grabs him and pushes the doctor violently into the patient's chair and says, okay, I want you to get straight with me real fast. He says, I want everything that you know and. Or there won't be enough of you left to stitch back together. The Doctor, you know, tells us everything that we already know about, like, the old ones and stuff. And guns, like, well, how do we bring Fred back? And the doctor says, you can't. And I think having the doctor say it is another layer of making the audience believe that she really is gone. Because, like, this guy is someone who is understanding of the human brain and also, like, how the human body works. Works.
And so he says that the sarcophagus getting released from custards in exchange for Making Guns cerebral alterations permanent. That was the bargain. And the extent of his involvement. He just knows that she's gone. And he. He doesn't know exactly how everything happened. Gun wants him to take it all back. He says, everything you put in my head. The law, the knowledge. Take it back. Everything. Take more. Leave me a vegetable. I don't care. Just bring her back. Back, please. And then the doctor says, there's nothing left to bring back. Mrs. Ms. Burkle's soul was consumed by the fires of resurrection. Everything she was is gone forever. For better or worse. You made a deal, Mr. Gun. I suggest you learn to live with it.
That's rough.
So then the Doctor starts to walk away, but then, boop. There's Wesley with a shotgun. And he knocks the doctor to the ground and points it at Gun. And it says, says, is there something you'd like to tell me, Charles? And we're like, crap. Okay, well, he's known. Now. Let's just rip this band aid off. And so Wesley's like, knox was in contact with the Doctor. You already knew that, didn't you? Gun says, yes, one of my sources. And we realized that one of the phone numbers traced back must have taken Wesley to the doctor. And Wesley says what he said about Fred and her soul. Is it true? What did you do, Charles?
And then Gun confesses and says that it was just a piece of paper. He says that everything they put in his head, everything that made me different, special, and he could fix it, saying he was losing it all, make it permanent. So I signed a piece of paper. It was a customs release form. I didn't think anyone would get hurt. Wesley says, nothing from Wolfram and Hart is ever free. Gun starts to cry.
And Wesley says, you knew that. And Gun says, I couldn't go back to being just the muscle. I didn't think it would be one of us. Us. I didn't think it would be Fred.
That is so horrible. Because it's like this.
This realization that Gun knew that it would be someone, though, and he was willing.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't remember this part because it's been a long time since I've seen this season. But I didn't remember this specific part. Like, in my head, it was always just like. But Gun didn't know. And Gun, like, it's not his fault because, I mean, ultimately I don't think it's his fault because there are greater forces at work here.
[00:54:03] Speaker A: It would have gotten through somehow. Yeah.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: Like if it was predestined to get to where it was Supposed to be to, like, resurrect Illyria. It was gonna happen regardless.
But this was really interesting because this just like, adds a layer of, like, Gun, like, knew something would happen. He was willing to cause harm to someone or somewhere or something.
And it's like, wow, how far you've fallen. And I hate, I hate that for him because the Gun that we met in the beginning wasn't like this. Like, I can see the evolution to this throughout the seasons and I. I hate it.
I don't know. It's just to reduce a character to being just the muscle that, like, we've seen on screen has so much more to offer. And that's his biggest downfall is his insecurity. I mean, it is interesting in a way, but at the same time, it's just like, cruel. Like, I don't know. Don't you find it, like, kind of cruel?
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I do. And it's just. It's especially sad because we know that Gun isn't just the muscle. And I think there have been hints. The show doesn't fully believe that, but they've never really expounded on. On all of that.
And it's also, also, again, it's the same thing as with Fred. There's so much missed potential.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:23] Speaker A: And so it feels like in a lot of ways these characters are getting punished for things that are not fully fleshed out as well and things that we're not seeing and we know we're never going to fully pay off. Like, it would have been so fun to see a gun that fully embraces himself and who he is and really gets to be multi dimensional.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: So it is turned into a vampire.
[00:55:43] Speaker A: He was supposed to get. He was supposed to get turned into a vampire. Fire, ultimately, which is just not much better. You know, it's just really sad.
But I just, I think on a story level it is really interesting. The corruption that has come with slowly compromising over time that we've seen. I mean, this is also the gun that sold his soul for a truck, you know, so there were signs there, even before all of this happened, that Gun was willing to make these really horrible exchanges and compromises at times. Of course, he was gambling with his own life, but.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: Yeah, well, at the time he was gambling with. With his own life. And that truck was like a means to protect his community. So it was different.
He did it for a noble reason ultimately, even though it was.
He had like a death wish. Like, if it feels like he doesn't put himself, he doesn't value himself. But he values protecting his community and the people around him.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: But it seems like at this point, Gun doesn't value himself. He values what Wolfram and Hart gives to him, which is he values what.
[00:56:53] Speaker A: He brings to the team. And he believes that just being the muscle isn't enough.
[00:56:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: And that he.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: That's. That's not him, though. Like.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: No, it's not. Like, he also.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: Him. Like, this isn't the real him.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: This is Wolfram and Hart. And that's why I'm saying, like, he values what Wolfram and Hart has given him more than himself and clearly now more than the lives of the people around him. Like, it's just.
Yeah. How. How far we've come.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: Or not necessarily the lives of the people around him. Because I think now he's like, oh, my gosh, it actually is affecting them. But I think it's like he. This was the guy that was willing to sell his soul for a truck in order. Order to save the people, the helpless people around him. And now look at him. Basically selling his soul in order to continue to do and benefit and selling somebody himself.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Like, knowingly knowing that he might be selling someone else out.
[00:57:48] Speaker A: Yeah. He has no problem now harming someone else. Yeah. It's just. It's. It's very, very sad. It's very sad.
So then Wesley says, I understand not wanting to go back. And then puts his gun down, says, not wanting to be who we were. I understand it, and I can forgive it. And then he says, what was wrong.
[00:58:06] Speaker B: With who you were?
What was wrong with who you were?
[00:58:10] Speaker A: And I don't. I think. I think Wesley's talking about himself here. I don't think he's necessarily talking about Gun at this point. You know, I think this is Wesley acknowledging that he's never going to be the same person. That there's a part of him that has died because of Fred dying and kind of just being like, well, I'm going to be ruthless. I have. I have nothing holding back my morals, basically, at this point. Right. He says, but you knew what was happening to her. You knew who was responsible, and you didn't say anything. You let her die. And then he picks up a scalpel and thrusts it into Gun's gut and says, I'm less forgiving about that. And this feels like such a parallel to angel smothering Wesley with the pillow for kidnapping his son. And it's so interesting that Wesley lets Gun fully explain everything and then still stabs him. Whereas, like, angel didn't hear anything that Wesley had to say. But it was the same. Like, calm, cool, calculated. Like, hey, I want you to know this is me.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Before I smother you. Like, it's the same, like, full knowledge and acknowledgement of what they're doing. Like, this isn't just purely out of rage. This is calculated and it's.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: This is personal. Yeah.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Critically touched. Has a really great quote. They say the scene. This scene also immediately puts us in mind of the darker, more ruthless and driven Wesley we saw in season four. The way he later kills Knox in the middle of Angel's heroic speech about the value of human life, much to my amusement, only reinforces this impression. During the expeditions with Faith and Release, we saw Wesley acting quite, quite similarly to the one we see here. This makes sense. Those events took place just after Wesley had been forced to decapitate his lover for fear she might become a vampire. At the time, he had hallucinated a conversation with her as he was standing over her corpse and working up the courage to do what he must. Shells starts with Wesley once again taking an axe to the corpse of a girlfriend. Only this time she has become a monster and is actually talking to him. The consistency of Wesley's emotions or Wesley's actions when such a state of mind demonstrates how well defined his character is. But this is no simple reh.
Unlike his Season 4 incarnation, this Wesley isn't embittered and alienated from his friends. And perhaps because of that, he realizes he is crossing lines and doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons. He just can't help himself. That is why he later confesses to Illyria, I'm probably the last man in the world to teach you what is right.
Yeah, this feels like again, like I can see patterns emerging, but this is just so much worse because this is Wesley. Like, he doesn't care anymore and he's surrounded by friends. At this point, he's actually turning on his friends.
So pretty sad.
So then we cut to Wesley's office, and Angel's like, throwing Wes against the wall. And he says, what the hell did you do? Wesley says, what I had to. Angel says, I don't remember seeing Stab gun on the agenda this morning. Wesley says, I avoided the major organs. He'll probably live. Angel says, is that supposed to make it all right? And Wesley says, nothing is all right. Nothing will ever be all right. Angel says, we' get her back. Wesley says, no, we won't. Her soul was destroyed.
Angel's like, are you sure? Wes nods, and then Angel's like, what about gun? Wesley says, he let the sarcophagus into Wolfram and Hart. What he knew, when he knew it, it doesn't change what happened. He let her die. And then angel says, so did I. And then he tells him about what happened at the well. He says, as much as I love Fred, I couldn't let thousands of other people die. I need you to bury it. When Wes. Everything you're feeling, everyone you want to hurt, I need you to put it aside and focus on what has to be done. Illyria, he says, we need to stop her. And then Spike comes in, wiping his bloody hands on a towel. He'd been, you know, torturing the doctor. And he says that he got a name. Valhalla. It's Vala Hanesh. And it was a place that used to be the temple for Illyria.
And they look it up in the books, and it was. Was she was supposed to have been resurrected there. And it's somewhere in Los Angeles with her army. And they were all entombed with her, waiting for her return. And they are like, all right. So it's out of phase with the time stream. Only Illyria can open up the gate. They're like, we need to stop her. We jump to. I guess this is the bank. And Illyria's, like, walking over bodies of security guards with Nox. And she talks about how he was. Humans are fragile. And she's like, how is it they came to control this world? This set, I'm pretty sure, is the same set as the Hyperion. The. Like, the floor looks the exact same. Like, even the layout. The doorway that they all come in seems like the. The front door from the Hyperion.
[01:02:53] Speaker B: Interesting.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure that it is. I think I. I watched it behind the scenes that talked about that.
She says, your deceivers. And Knox is like, yes, all of them. They deserve to be punished. And she says, you don't consider yourself. Yourself part of your race? And Nox says, not anymore. I'm with the king. And so then he's like, open the gateway. Raise your armies. Wash humanity from the face of the earth. And she's like, be silent. And he's like, okay. So then she holds up her hands and the portal doesn't open. And she's like, the gateway is blocked. Knox is like, that's okay. He was like, you know, Wolfram and Heart probably did that. And then she's like, wait. The wolf, the ram, and the heart. She's like, in my time, they were week. And he's like, well, I guess they got beefed up. So he grabs, you know, some stuff in order to do a spell. And then we have the hospital room. And again, another parallel to Wesley. Guns lying in the bed. And Harmony comes in carrying the papers. And it's just. This reminds me a lot of that scene where Fred comes in and tells Wesley not to come back. Yeah. And I think that's supposed to be, like, another parallel right there.
She tells him that he needs to sign some stuff. And he's like, well, I don't think angel will want me signing anything. And she's. He's like, yeah, that's what this is about. Basically saying, like, you're being let go.
And she says, how could you do that to your friends? To Fred? And he says, because I was weak. Because I wanted to be somebody that I wasn't. Because I don't know where I fit. Because I never did. Because a thousand other reasons that don't mean a damn. Because she's gone. She's gone and she's not coming back because of me. And I was like, how refreshing to see Gun like, apologize and say he's sorry versus Wesley, who never apologized.
[01:04:36] Speaker B: Never. Not once.
[01:04:40] Speaker A: How is this any different? Like. Yeah.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: And like, the thing is, ultimately, like I said, it's not technically his fault.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: He is definitely played a role implicitly but not explicitly. You know what I mean? Like, he did it. If he had known it was Fred, he obviously wouldn't have done it. Versus, versus. Wesley knew what he was doing and kidnapped Connor.
[01:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Full stop.
[01:05:03] Speaker B: Without talking to anyone.
[01:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:07] Speaker B: Apologize.
[01:05:07] Speaker A: Both should have been an apology. So it's like, why does one get an apology and one doesn't? Is it because someone's dead?
Is that where the line is?
Yeah, where's the line? Is it just because it's Wesley and he can do. No, I would like.
[01:05:22] Speaker B: I would argue that what happened to Connor is a much worse fate than.
[01:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah, we all know how that ended up. Poor Connor.
[01:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
That kid was. Had to live with.
[01:05:35] Speaker A: And then so much trauma. Jasmine came and Cordelia and. Yeah, all that stuff. It's horrible.
It was really nice to see Harmony, like, patting gun on the shoulder as he's crying.
[01:05:47] Speaker B: I was like, oh, Harmony, she's the woman now. She's gotta.
[01:05:52] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[01:05:52] Speaker B: She's gotta give the men pep talks.
[01:05:55] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[01:05:56] Speaker B: Tell them.
[01:05:56] Speaker A: Don't put this.
Don't put this on her. Poor Harmony.
[01:06:01] Speaker B: Harmony doesn't have time for this. She's got gossip to collect.
[01:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's a lot of good stuff happening right now.
[01:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:08] Speaker A: So then at back at the bank, Illyria is watching as Knox does the spell. And it's all completely ready. And then. Then, you know, the rest of the gang, Angel, Spike, and Wesley pop in and they're like, all right, it's show time. And Knox is like, you guys should scan the headlines here. You can't win this. Wesley's like, we'll die trying. O' Leary is like, why? Angel's like, you want the short version? Version. Let's start with you walking around looking like the woman you murdered. Hilarious. Like, your actions are not going to restore her.
And she's like, yet you seek a confrontation you cannot win. And Angel's like, you know what you're trying to do? I raise an army. I can't let that happen. And Larry's like, you are the protector of these creatures. And Angels like, yes. She says, you'd fight for their lives. Angel says, yes. She looks at Knox, even this one. And Knox is like.
And Angel's like, you're about as low as it gets, Knox. But you're a part of humanity that isn't always pretty, but it's a hell of a lot better than what came before. And then he's talking about, you know, I would fight for his life just like any other humans, because that's what people do.
That's what makes us. And the gunshot goes off, and Wesley shoots Knox dead straight through the chest. And Angelic looks at him, is like, weren't you even listening? And we're just like, wesley. Wesley's gone. He's gone.
And Illyria's like, you destroyed my priest. Spike's like, okay, but he had it coming. And Illyria's like, you're offending me. Angel's like, that's right. You're not the problem. Or, he's not the problem, you are. And then we get this really cool fight sequence sequence. So they begin to fight.
[01:07:37] Speaker B: So cool.
[01:07:37] Speaker A: And Illyria throws Angel across the room, punches Spike in the chest, knocking him down. Wesley shoots at her. She kicks Knox body at him. Meanwhile, like, coming in and out of time, like, slowing things down and stuff. Angel gets to his feet, starts to swing his sword at her. And then we have this incredible moment.
[01:07:55] Speaker B: Where synchronized sword fighting, it's so good.
[01:07:59] Speaker A: And then she grabs those blades as Spike and Angel come out. And then just so sick, swings them, and it's incredible. And then Wesley gets to his feet. Lyria waves her hand, creating another slow motion time wave before he can fire at her again. Spike tries to get to his feet. Angel reaches into his pocket. Illyria turns to continue with the port into the portal, but all of a sudden, Angel's right there. And then he punches her and sends her across the room and reveals that he was holding the crystal from the sarcophagus in his fist. And he's like, it's connected to you. I'm connected to it. It. And Illyria says, sneaky. She swings her leg and knocks him down. Spike goes for her. She punches him again. And then Wesley sees that she's gonna make a run for it. And just as she dashes into the portal, he dives in after her. And the portal just completely shuts. And now we're in Illyria's time.
We're in her temple or wherever this is the other dimension. And it's just that dead. Everyone's gone. Her statue has been completely toppled. We don't know who did it. We don't know what happened. We just see that someone has come through and killed all of them. And she just sinks to her feet. She says, it can't be. It's gone. My world is gone. And Wesley walks up behind her with the gun and says, now you know how I feel. And she just looks at him. And then the portal opens and she takes off. And then back in Angel's office, Angel and Spike are sitting and talking while west is just staring off into nothingness. And they're like, well, okay, I guess that's it. That's done. But, like, Illyria's still out there, and Illyria is still very much a threat. So we need to regroup, and then we'll take care of her. And an angel looks over and he's like, wes. And Wes says, it's all that we can do. I'll be in the lab.
And then Spike talks about that offer that angel had had presented to him last episode and says, you know, that offer still good. Roving agent and all. Angel says, yeah, it's still good. And Spike says is, well, maybe we should send gun before Wes has another poke. And Angel's like, well, you're not leaving. And Spike goes, this is what she would have wanted. It's what I want. And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is what I want.
I want you to stop making decisions based on the women and start making decisions about what you want. Spike. And so him just saying, it's what I want. And he says, I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give of what's left of mine. The fight's coming, Angel. We both feel it. And it's going to be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are going to get ugly. That's where I live. And I was like, you know what? Good for you, Spike.
[01:10:33] Speaker B: I love that. I love that so much.
You know, I've seen people argue that Spike is still kind of making this choice because of a woman. Like he's making this choice because it's what Fred would have wanted.
But I really like his explanation here. And I think, think it does make me believe that he is doing it because he's found a purpose. Like he. He's invested in what angel is trying to do here. Because he's been here, he's seen what's going on.
And I think that he believes in Angel's mission.
And that's why I think I kind of disagree. Like, yes, a part of it was because he cared about Fred, but I think the reason he cared about Fred was because he cares about like he know. He sees what they're doing here. Like he believes in what they're doing. So I really like this moment for Spike. And I think it parallels a moment that's gonna come in, I think the last episode that is really great for him as well, where he kind of like takes ownership of his life and decides like, this is what I want to do and I'm going to do it with like my full chest. And I love that first person, Spike. Great growth. Keep going.
[01:11:47] Speaker A: Yes, let's do it.
Well, and I think there's a difference between being inspired by a woman and doing something for her affection and doing something where you're completely taking over her identity. And I think this is Spike going, I Fred died for something and I want to create meaning out of her death. He wants to my way of honoring her, you know. And I don't see this as Spike going, I'm doing it for her affection. Because obviously she's no longer. She doesn't exist.
[01:12:16] Speaker B: That's such a good way to put it. He's doing it as a way to honor her. It's like the same thing inspired him.
[01:12:21] Speaker A: That's totally fine. And I have no problem with Buffy inspiring Spike. It's the co opting of that person's personality, identity, mission, all that stuff in an. In an attempt for their affection that I just. I don't like, you know, And I, I don't get that with him and Fred even. Even if, let's say Fred did exist you know, obviously, it would be nice if Spike starts doing things for himself, but I think that pivot where he says, you know, I want to do it for. It's what Fred would have wanted. And then he kind of, like, stops and is like, it's what I want.
[01:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:53] Speaker A: And I think that's a really big moment. And we're still not quite there, but again, the season's not done yet with Spike, but it's Spike starting to shift and realize what he wants apart from anybody else and I. And it's the mission. Right, Right. And he's starting to see the importance.
[01:13:07] Speaker B: To do something meaningful, like, for the sake of doing something meaningful, like, for that thing. He's not doing it for anyone else. It's because he knows that it, like, matters to do this.
[01:13:20] Speaker A: Right.
[01:13:20] Speaker B: And that's such a difference from, yeah. Spike's motivations throughout this, like, entire time that we've known him up until Damage, like, that was kind of the turning point, because up until Damage, he was Spike was doing for Spike. That's it.
[01:13:36] Speaker A: We also have to think about the context of this season, too. Who was the person who fought so hard for Spike to live when Spike was terrified of dying, and now he's realizing, I want to pay Fred back in a way, and I'm going to give my life because he knows there's a fight coming. I'm going to give my life for something that she fought so hard to give to me, you know?
[01:14:03] Speaker B: Right.
[01:14:04] Speaker A: She fought so hard for me to have my life. The least I can do is give mine, you know? Like, I just. I think it's. I think it's pretty great.
So. Huzzah. Good job, Spike. More of this, writers. Yay.
[01:14:14] Speaker B: Another meor he's growing up, Sarah.
[01:14:18] Speaker A: I know. He's not a teenager anymore.
Our little boy.
He's in his 20s now. This is amazing.
He's still making stupid, impulsive decisions, but I'm seeing some maturity there.
[01:14:30] Speaker B: He's like. He's like 20, 22 to, like, 25. Age range now.
[01:14:35] Speaker A: His frontal lobe.
[01:14:37] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:14:38] Speaker A: It's starting to come in, but it's not fully there yet.
[01:14:40] Speaker B: Right?
[01:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:41] Speaker B: Right?
[01:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:42] Speaker B: We're almost there. We're almost there.
[01:14:44] Speaker A: We're seeing it.
[01:14:45] Speaker B: I love it.
[01:14:46] Speaker A: In Fred's office, Wesley's packing up, perfects the Dixie Chicks posters coming down. Illyria know aimless walks in is like, you grieve still for a single life at this point. Wesley's just not even surprised to see her. He's, like, haunted by Fred every time she Comes in and he's like, why are you here? Illyrius says, I'm uncertain. This place was part of the shell. And then Wesley says, don't call her. And then he says, the woman you killed had a name. Again with the names. Illyria says, this is important to you. Things have names. The shell, Winifred Burkle. She can't return to you. You. Wesley says, I know. Hilarious. Says, yet there are fragments. When her brain collapsed, electrical spasms channeled into my function system. Memories. Illyria says, yet there are fragments. When her brain collapsed, electrical spasms channeled into my function system's memories. Then she holds up her fingers, and then we see, like, this little electrical spasm forms between them. And she. We hear Fred's voice, please, Wesley. Why can't I stay? And Wesley's just like, no, no, no, I can't leave. And Illyria says, I've got nowhere to go. My kingdom is long dead. There's so much I don't understand. I've become overwhelmed. I'm unsure of my place. I was like, oh, join the rest of Angel Investigations here, girl.
Wesley says, your place is with the rest of your people. Dead and turned to ash. I love the perilous Angel. Dead and turned to ash like you're. You should be dead. You should be long dead. And even Spike. Spike, you should be dead. Long dead. But you're not, because you're still alive, trying to fight for the mission. Because that's not what Spike just said. The whole thing about how, like, making his life means something so interesting. Illyria says, perhaps, But I exist here. I must learn to walk in this world. I'll need your help. Wesley. She calls him by his name. Such a sign of respect, of a kind of an olive branch.
And Wesley says, if I were to help you find your way, you'd have to learn to change. You mustn't kill. And she's like, but you killed my priest in defiance of your leader. And Wesley says, he murdered the woman I love. And Illyria goes, and that made it just? And Wesley says, no, it wasn't just. I'm probably the last man in the world to teach you what's right. And she says, but you will. If I abide, you will help me. And he says, yes. She says, because I look like her. And he says, yes.
And then she stands next to him and they are both looking out the window, the lab into the lab, where the sarcophagus is beautiful shot, and there's just glass lying everywhere. And. And she says, we Cling to what is gone. Is there anything in this life but grief? And he says, there's love. There's hope for some. There's hope that you'll find something worthy, that your life will lead you to some joy. That after everything, you can still be surprised. And she says, is that enough? And she says, is that enough to live on?
And we don't. We. We don't have an answer at. And I just. I love this shot, and I love this moment of them, like, looking through the broken lab window at the sarcophagus. This, like, visual representation of what were the two halves of Fred's life. Kind of that human side of her, that love. The Dixie Chicks has Fagan bomb. And then the side that she devoted her a lot of her life to in the lab and how we have them both kind of shattered and broken. And the people who care about Fred are left to kind of pick up the pieces and try to make everything. Everything fit together and make meaning of both their lives and even hers and her legacy. And it's very poetic. And I think that with Fred being gone and Illyria not even being, like, she can't even destroy the world now or do what she destroyed Fred's life. Like, she can't even complete all of that. Like, there's.
There's this sense of, like.
[01:18:29] Speaker B: And then, was it all for nothing, right?
[01:18:31] Speaker A: It was all for nothing. It was Fred's life meaningless. And so I think that it, like, Spike going, no, I think I'm gonna stay and try to make something of Fred's death is him honoring her. And it's the same thing that, like, hopefully the others can come and do that. That same thing as well. Like, Wesley can find some meaning. And just this moment of, like, watching two people, both Wesley and Illyria, they're both shells of who they used to be. And it's just so good.
[01:19:00] Speaker B: Love it.
[01:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
Critically touched, says Wesley has always been a private, quiet person. What few details we learned about his deeper feelings were uncovered in those moments. He did not guard his tongue quite carefully enough and let something slip about the way his father treated him or how he saw himself as a failure. Yet in this place and at this time, all those walls have been broken down. He has no need to hide anything from Illyria. A stranger who is not even human. She becomes his confessional, even though he still hates her. Earlier, he tried to manipulate her into returning to captivity. And later on, he will try again. In the meantime, he actually tries to teach her what he can. She thinks he is Far beneath her, a shabby substitute for her KWA son and will still be aggravated with his lack of deference. In a way, they both agree to live a lie. They know the other cannot truly provide what they are looking for. And yet they cannot let go. I really like that a lot.
Yeah. Yeah.
So then we have a Place Called Home, written performed by Kim Richie and just a montage Gun sitting in the hospital bed, staring at the ceiling. And then we have Harmony sitting at her desk with all her unicorn figurines.
Lauren sitting alone in his office drinking a Sea Breeze with a lime wedge.
And then Spike sitting in the lobby. I love how everyone's just, like, walking around him, him. And then we have angel signing papers. And then last, we have Wesley packing up Fred's belongings, packs up Fagin Bomb.
[01:20:27] Speaker B: And then life goes on.
[01:20:29] Speaker A: Have Illyria just looking at the sarcophagus in Fred's lab. And then we have Fred's parents saying goodbye to her. And that flashback is Fred packs her things into the Chevy, waves once again, gets in the car and drives away to Los Angeles to her future.
[01:20:44] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[01:20:47] Speaker A: So sad.
[01:20:48] Speaker B: It's so sad.
[01:20:49] Speaker A: Oh, man. She's so hopeful and, like, she is full of life.
[01:20:53] Speaker B: Like, if you think about everything that Fred has gone through, like, she spent five years in a hell dimension where she had to fight for her life and made it out of that and then started fighting evil and then was a scientist and all of these things. Like, ugh. And for her to just go out like this.
[01:21:15] Speaker A: And I think about, like, Fredless, where she could have gone with her parents to back to Texas where it was safer. And she chose to stay and to fight because she believed in it and because she believed in angel and the rest of the team. And ultimately, yeah, she would have lived a safer life, but it's like, would she have lived as fulfilled of a life?
[01:21:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's the whole.
I think I need, like, we need to remember this a lot for this season, too.
That's actually such a good point, because it's like, is life worth living if you're not living it with purpose or doing things that, like, matter? And that's what we just talked about.
Spike, you know, something he's been missing. So, yeah, like, the end. The end is bleak, basically.
But what you do in the meantime is what matters.
[01:22:10] Speaker A: Yeah. If nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do, Right? Yeah, it keeps coming back to that. When it's something that we've talked a lot about, mainly in it's the episode that we'll be dropping the same. Actually, it's funny how this happens the same night that this one will drop the episode potential. And that's a big conversation in that episode. Anya brings it up a lot of how dawn thinks that she's one of the potentials. And it's like. Like, if she becomes a slayer, that means Buffy dies.
And if she never becomes the Slayer, her life is just going to reek of missed potential. She will never fulfill her function, her purpose in life. But in order to do that, that means her sister has to die. And so it's a horrible existence for these potentials of, like, possibly never getting called, but then once they do get called, it's because their friend died. So it's. It's like. It's such a horrible way to. To go. But there's also, like, this. What it does is. I never thought about it before is it holds up this idea that living a life without meaning and purpose is just as bad as, you know, dying. Dying without purpose.
[01:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:23:16] Speaker A: Your life. Cut it. Being cut off too short. And you can argue that Fred died early in her life was too short, but she had a life rich with meaning and purpose. And so therefore, in some ways, that gave her death meaning.
So. Yeah.
[01:23:31] Speaker B: Yes. So well said.
[01:23:34] Speaker A: Oh, so sad, though. So sad. Why does it have to be that option?
[01:23:39] Speaker B: We'll miss you, Fred.
We'll miss you, Amy.
We'll hang out with Pam from now on.
[01:23:47] Speaker A: Oh, no.
Hilarious. Hilarious. Little. Little sister Pam's coming over or not. Lyria, Amy's. Amy's sister. Pam am. It's right.
[01:23:59] Speaker B: She's our twin.
[01:24:00] Speaker A: She's. She's goth. She's really into, you know, death and destruction and. And heavy metal. And Amy over here, this is Pam. She's in, like, heavy eyeliner.
That's for you, Meme that. Thank you.
[01:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:24:21] Speaker A: All right. Well, what a great episode, and I'm very, very. I'm very excited to talk about Illyria for the rest of the season and the rest of everything else, so. Yeah. All right, guys, let us know your thoughts. A lot of big stuff as we wrap up the last of Fred's arc as we really get into the final stretch of the season, and everything just becomes 10,000 times more intense.
[01:24:44] Speaker B: Of the series.
[01:24:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Series.
Yeah, that's right. Let us know what you think about Wesley's decision to shoot gun. Do you guys hold gun responsible? What do you think about the parallels between Wesley and gun back in season three with Wesley kidnapping Connor and angel, you know, smothering him and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot in this episode, but.
All right, guys, until next time. We will talk to you then. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angels. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us@ InvestigatingAngelpodcastmail.com.
