S5. Ep18. Origin

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about Season 5, Episode 18, Origin, written by Drew Goddard, directed by Terence O' Hara, and aired April 21, 2004. And man, this episode is so good. I enjoyed watching it, and I enjoyed so much that we got Connor back, which I never thought those words would ever be out of my mouth. And I loved how much this episode really ties in the events of last season with this one, with the whole erasing memories along with Connor, but then with, like, Wesley's desire to have everything erased and to forget, and then everything with just, like, gun being tied into the basement and all that stuff. Like, it just feel like everything just kind of came together and it was, like, really satisfying. And I don't know, I just. I really enjoyed this episode so much, and I'm curious. I could not find anything, but I'm very curious if this was their original plan for this episode, because the last one is when they found out that, like, they were being canceled, or if they added this in and pivoted because of the cancellation. But either way, like, what a fantastic way to do this episode. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah, this was such a great episode. This version of Connor was more interesting than every single version of him in season four. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Oh, true. Right? [00:02:03] Speaker B: And it's just. It's so nice. He's. Vincent Kartheiser is, like, a likable actor. I feel like he's endearing, and he's a really good actor, I think. And I think he did a really good job in this episode. And I think my only, like, it's not even a criticism. It's just like a. I wish that they could have done this. I wish there had been more, like, confrontation between angel and Wesley. I don't really remember next episode too well, so that could be answered next episode. Like, that could be something that we will see in the next episode. But I just. Every time I watch this episode, we get to the part where they shatter the orb thing, and I'm, like, expecting them to have some type of confrontation after, and then they don't. And I'm like, oh, man. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:50] Speaker B: But again, I don't really remember what happens in the next episode. So that could be what happens next. But otherwise, I love that they brought. Brought back Sajan. Sajan, whatever. Yeah, he's got silky ass hair. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah. He's looking a little better. I was like, oh, that time has done him good. [00:03:08] Speaker B: His little vacation in the urn. He was getting hair treatments. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah. He just had a mask on the entire time. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. There was another demon that's, like, being kept alive by, like, various fluids. So that was. Yeah, lots of those, I guess, that deal with Wolfman heart. Yeah. Spike was really funny. His, like, few scenes that he was in. [00:03:33] Speaker A: And that's how I like my Spike, honestly, coming in. He's hilarious, he's funny, he's snarky. And then he's gone for the majority of the episode. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:42] Speaker A: I find those are his times to shine, honestly. Yeah, he works well for me in small doses. And I know that's super unpopular, but you know what? Fight me. Fight me, everyone. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Same. He works well for me in small doses. And when him and angel are paired up together, that's what I've learned. Watch. Re. Watching this season. And just like Buffy in general, I. Those are the situations. And with Drew, I like when he's like, with Drew. But at the same time, I. I could also take it or leave it. I don't know. [00:04:14] Speaker A: I've really been loving him since. Since Damage. Ever since Damage. I really have no complaints for him. How they've been using him. Same, like, how fun he's been and his chemistry with Illyria, with Angel, and then anybody else that they're pairing him up with has just been really entertaining to watch. And, yeah, I. I've been enjoying it a lot, but I find this episode just so fascinating on so many levels. And there are so many callbacks to episodes in seasons three and four. That was just really fun. I found myself pulling up notes and old scripts and stuff and comparing some of the stuff. And I mean, some of it's pretty obvious, but. And there was a few things that I did not realize until this rewatch. So I'm excited to talk about that as we go on, but I don't really have a lot to say as far as introduction. Most of my stuff is kind of spread out throughout the episode. But Origin, obviously, this episode deals with what makes us who we are. Is it our memories? It's the classic nature versus nurture question in a lot of ways, like, who would we be without our memories? Is there something inside of us that would come out regardless of what we have experienced in life? And I personally feel like everything that happened with Cordelian Season four kind of answers a lot of that question, because her memories were originally altered, like, in the very beginning of the season, and she didn't seem like herself at all. And the show was even trying to make a very clear distinction between that Cordelia and then who she had been in the past. And obviously we end up finding out it's Jasmine inhabiting her body. So, like, you know, her running away, her being scared, all of that other stuff is very different from the Cordelia that we had started seeing over the course of the few seasons that she'd been on the show, where she would actually try to fight back and do various things like that. So I. It's again and again, it's like season four. Right. So it's kind of hard to be like, yeah, well, that's law. When it's like, clearly season four, they were flying by the seat of their pants and just, like, making things up as they went. So it's like, you know, but if we're gonna go by the lore that is already established, it does kind of feel like if they're going to be consistent, that might be it. But either way, I feel like this episode is incredibly fascinating. And I. It's so funny that you mentioned how likable Connor is, because I literally wrote in my notes, I was like, oh, so if they just written Connor differently, then, like, we would have had problem, like, him smiling and being happy and just like, I just was like, oh, Vincent Kartheiser is kind of cute. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Like, he is. [00:06:41] Speaker A: And I just. [00:06:42] Speaker B: He's endearing. [00:06:43] Speaker A: All in season four and season three. Really Hardly at all. So, yeah, I. I enjoyed him. I was like, oh, I'll bring him back. I'm so curious. I need to, like, show this episode to Leah again and see what she thinks. If she still hates Connor, knowing her, she'd probably just double down and be like, I hate him even more. [00:07:02] Speaker B: But there's no way. He's just like, you can't really hate him in this episode. Like, he does nothing that's offensive. Absolutely nothing. [00:07:11] Speaker A: There's something very, like, open and honest about him. And I wouldn't say it's necessarily naive, but I don't know, it just was. [00:07:19] Speaker B: It was well adjusted. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:21] Speaker B: That's literally the only. He's just very. He's like, emotionally stable. Mentally stable. [00:07:28] Speaker A: I think he's more emotionally stable than Wesley and Angela. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Everybody. [00:07:33] Speaker A: And everybody. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Even Lauren, unfortunately. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:37] Speaker B: He's genuinely a normal person. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Yeah, he was just. He was very fun to watch. And the dynamic between him and Angel, I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I wanted in seasons three. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Angel wants to be a dad so bad. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:54] Speaker B: It's so sad. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And all the callbacks to, like, baby Connor and all the dreams and hopes that angel had for him. And then, like, I think there was something cathartic for angel to see Connor getting into college. And it's not necessarily the one that angel wanted him to go to, but, like, I think that Angel's just enjoying seeing the man that Connor is becoming. And I think there was something so. Just refreshing and. I don't know, it soothes something inside of me. Yeah. After watching season three, angel just break down with Connor being gone to be like, oh, this is everything angel wanted for him, you know? [00:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I was just thinking when I was watching the episode that it's been a really long time that we've seen David Boreanas or Angel portray, I guess, play out a scene like. Like, tenderness. I don't know how to explain it, but Angel's just been very hardened and closed off that I can't imagine him having, like, an intimate moment with somebody anymore. Like, a truly intimate moment, like the ones he's had with Buffy or, like, with Connor when he was a baby or anything like that. And I think what I liked so much about this episode is that you got to see that softer side of angel again. Because I just. I was like, oh, I missed this so much. [00:09:07] Speaker A: He's. [00:09:09] Speaker B: He. He does tenderness so well when it's with the right person. And I think Connor is absolutely the right person. And, you know, you could see he was, like, holding back because obviously Connor doesn't know who he is and then. But he, like, couldn't help himself. And it was just so cute. [00:09:27] Speaker A: That's so funny that you thought that, because I literally. I went searching my notes right now, but I literally wrote my notes. I don't remember where it was, but it was a moment between Connor and Angel. And I wrote David Boreanas really comes alive in a unique way around Connor in a way that I don't. I haven't seen at all this season. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Or last season or even last season before. [00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Like, I think, quite honestly, I think the last time he was tender, he was like, this was with baby Connor. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:56] Speaker B: And I think with Darla, like, the last time that I can think of angel being so, like. Like you said, coming alive is probably when Darla died or when that scene where she's, like, laying in bed and he puts his hand on her belly. Like, it's just moments like that where it's really, like. Like, I don't know, you could just, like, feel the emotion. [00:10:18] Speaker A: Right. And I think. I think a lot of people will be like, well, wait, why? Why don't you feel that way? Like, after that. And a lot of the scenes, like, you and I clocked it after Lullaby and stuff, the show went a very goofy route. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:32] Speaker A: And almost dumbed angel down. And like, we had. I think we were talking about how, like, some people had criticisms for us saying, like, oh, goofy Angels, like, our favorite. And it's like, I like goofy angel, but not stupid Angel. And in season three and sometimes in season four, the show made angel look like a fool and made him stupid in the act of being goofy. And like, we like petty Angel. We like it when Angels being silly, but not. [00:10:58] Speaker B: I like dry humor Angel. I like when he says something hilarious, but he doesn't even realize that he's saying it. But it's, like, the funniest thing anyone. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Like, Provider, you know? [00:11:07] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:11:08] Speaker A: And so it's episodes like that. Sorry not to trigger you, but it's like, there. And there really was not enough time written for the Connor and Angel relationship for them to have sincere moments when angel was not trying to compete with Connor for Cordelia's love or when they were, or even, like, the Gruag wasn't around or, like, there were other things going on like that. Like. And even the. The season three finale, when you have that brief moment or that brief couple of scenes where angel thinks that, oh, my gosh, me and Connor, like, he wants me to be his dad. All this stuff, it was not played uber sincere because you could tell the actors were kind of hamming it up so that the fall would be even more devastating for Angel. And it came off as kind of inauthentic in a way. So, yeah, just seeing this episode is bittersweet because it's so good. But it's like, this is what. This is the dynamic we wanted in season three and four. And there's so much they could have done with it. And they have. Those two guys have great chemistry and could have done some amazing work together. So they do. [00:12:15] Speaker B: I also really wanted to see, like, Connor and Spike interact more because that's his nephew. Like, that's Connor's nephew. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Like. Yeah, I know. I love that, like, Spike interacts with him and has no clue who he is. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker A: And I don't know that we really see. [00:12:32] Speaker B: You guys are family, technically. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You basically are. [00:12:37] Speaker B: But I was, like, sitting there. I'm just, like, trying to, like, put the vampire family tree in my mind, and I was getting so confused. And I'm like, okay, wait. So Connor is Angel's son, and Spike is Angel's grandchild. Grandsire child. So technically, Connor is Spike's uncle. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Spike is Connor's nephew. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is funny to me, because I wonder, like, if Spike. I bet you the first thing that Spike would say when he found out that Connor was Angel's son was like, hang on. I want a son, too. Like, wait, why do you get. You get literally, get to have everything. Why can't I have a son? Like, you know, Spike would be griping about the fact that vampires can have kids, but somehow Spike special Angel got to have a kid. And he'd be like. [00:13:25] Speaker B: And then he would start calling Connor uncle just to piss him off. And it would make Connor so angry because he's. [00:13:32] Speaker A: But then he treat him like a kid. Yeah, yeah. Connor would be just, like, raging the entire time. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:38] Speaker A: But then Spike would be, like, antagonizing him to get him to, like, trade blows. To, like, test him out and see how strong he is. And then he'd probably pit him against Deliria. And, yeah, it would be highly entertaining. But obviously, I don't think they could have Vincent Karthizer for that long. And also, they knew that Connor was not a popular character, so they needed to give him to us in small. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Bring him back. [00:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah, bring him back. And redo season three and four while you're at it. All right, let's jump in. So we are in the science lab, and an unshaven Wesley standing in Fred's old office overlooking Illyria in the lab below. She's just standing besides a table and just, like, staring straight ahead. And then she, like, turns and looks at him. And I gotta tell you, that was the scariest thing I've seen on the show yet. She's just not blinking, and she's not even, like, looking him dead on. It's like her head's tilted, and it was like the Girl from the Ring. And she just stares at him, not blinking, and he's just, like, staring back at her. And then angel walks in, and Wesley's like, She's either counting oxygen molecules or analyzing the petri dish she just put into her mouth. Or sleeping. I can never quite tell. Angel's like, are you sure this was a good idea? You don't have to do all this yourself. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad someone decided to check in on Wesley. [00:14:52] Speaker B: It's been two episodes being so harsh after. [00:14:56] Speaker A: You mean Angel? Angel is. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah. But I Think Wesley does need a little bit of tough love just because of, like, how he's kind of hardened. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah, but that wasn't tough love. That was just, like, being kind of mean. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Being a dick. Yeah. [00:15:13] Speaker B: Being a dick. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:14] Speaker B: You can give somebody tough love without. He was, like, yelling at him almost. [00:15:21] Speaker A: He was like, wesley, stop it right now. He's grieving. It kind of felt like they were trying to do maybe a little bit of a nod to, like, season three, when Wesley kidnapped Connor, and then showing that, like, oh, it's a strained relationship now kind of between Wesley and. I don't know. [00:15:44] Speaker B: That's what I thought later on, but. But also, like, that. Just that first scene, I was just like, damn, he's being too harsh. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's valid. Yeah. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Like, I would have understood if he started being harsh after Connor came and which he does. He's, like, kind of hard on Wesley. I get it then. [00:16:00] Speaker A: Very. Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker B: But he's just. Man, if you're going to try to make somebody feel better, like, just. Tone. Tone matters. [00:16:08] Speaker A: I don't think he was trying to make him feel better. I think he was just like, get over it. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is like. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Which is not great either. Which is. Yeah, the worst thing to say. But I was like, I. I guess in my stupid, twisted mind, I was like, oh, but at least he's checking up on him, because nobody checked up on Wesley the last time. [00:16:27] Speaker B: He's basically checking up on him as, like, an employer to be like, can you get back to work now? [00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Excuse me. I see you haven't wiggled your mouse in a couple of hours. So let's go. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Go. [00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Angel. [00:16:41] Speaker A: I know. [00:16:42] Speaker B: So insensitive. [00:16:43] Speaker A: Very insensitive. So Angel's like, you don't have to do this all yourself. Wesley's like, well, who else is there? We're running out of people. Angel says, he's not leaving Gun in a hell dimension. I was like, okay, good. At least we're gonna get Gun out. He says, in the meantime, I need you to let us help you with her. Wesley says, she's my responsibility. Angel's like, she's our responsibility. If she's going to be here, there are things that we should be doing. Testing her powers, see, studying her. Wesley's like, illyria could be difficult. Testing her might be hard without getting someone seriously hurt. Angel's like, we'll make Spike do it. Wesley's like, good. [00:17:14] Speaker B: Very good. [00:17:15] Speaker A: I was like, it's the amulet all over again. We don't want someone to get hurt. So we're gonna make Spike do it. [00:17:21] Speaker B: And, like, the thing is, Spike would willingly do it, too, knowing that there was, like, a risk of him getting absolutely pulverized because he just. He's just so dramatic and he just loves. [00:17:32] Speaker A: He. [00:17:32] Speaker B: He likes putting his own life in danger. I don't know. The rush. [00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah, he does. He loves the rush. We know this. Him with the clipboard was killing me. Later on, he was like, don't touch my clipboard. I was like, okay, Spike, he's getting so angry. [00:17:48] Speaker B: Don't punch me in the face anymore. [00:17:51] Speaker A: This is the money maker. Okay? I just. I die at the cheekbones. Spike dyes his hair constantly and does his nails. It's just so funny to me. [00:18:01] Speaker B: It is so funny. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Which, you know what? Self care. Self care is important, but it's so funny, like, the amount of effort that Spike goes to for things just to, like, look crusty all the time. Like, I'm just saying, like, his jacket just looks like it reeks. [00:18:19] Speaker B: And then he makes fun of angel for putting, like, hair gel in his hair. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me tell you, I have seen angel shower on this show several times, and I have never seen Smith Spike showers. [00:18:30] Speaker B: So same. Oh, my God, that's so. [00:18:32] Speaker A: Ever. And I still. I still think it's questionable whether or not he even showered when he lived in that crit, so. [00:18:40] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:41] Speaker B: Poor Buffy. [00:18:43] Speaker A: I know, I know. I try not to think about that one for too long, and then I get really depressed for her. I was like, oh, girl, I'm so glad you love yourself again. That was a. That was a dark time. Jeez. Anyway, all right, so the Angel's like, when was the last time you slept? You're not her savior. I need you here working, not off drinking yourself into a coma chasing ghosts. Fred's dead, Wes. You're still alive. Start acting like it. I was like, okay. [00:19:07] Speaker B: Way harsh. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Way harsh. Okay, cher. But. But, yeah. So then later on, we're now in Wesley's office and this is him trying, I guess we have a middle aged couple sitting in the chairs across from Wesley and talking to him. And if we were observant, we would know that these were Connor's parents. But nobody really was paying much attention to Connor's parents in that one episode, that one scene that we saw them all together. But basically they talk about how their son was out getting the mail and got hit by a car and, like, got slammed in the side of the garage. And the. And Wesley's like, okay, why does this relevant to us? Have you talked to the police? And they're like, no, no, no. What you don't understand is our son is fine. There's, like, not a scratch on him. He got right back up. And they're like, the doctors are saying, or the officers are saying that our son might be different. Angel. Or Wesley instantly pulls up the phone and is like, hey, Angel. Or he calls Harmony, is like, can you have angel come in here, please? And they're like, our son's downstairs. He thinks that we're here to set up a trust. We were told to contact you guys. That Wolverine Hart deals with things like this. Please, will you help us? And Wesley's like, of course. Cut to the lobby, and Angel's walking through, heading up to Wesley's offices, when he hears Connor yell out and hey, dad. The entire family gets ptsd. We're all like, no. Last person we ever thought. And then angel turns, and of course it's Connor. But Connor is yelling at his. Yelling for his dad, his human father, who is waiting for him in Wesley's office. He goes right past him, over to his family, and he's talking about how there's dried scorpions in the vending machine downstairs. And Wesley's like, oh, angel, great. So glad you're here. Angel's like, shell shocked. He's like, this is Lawrence and Colleen Riley, and this is their son, Connor. Connor offers his hand to shake, and Angel's just like, what is happening? And Wesley starts to explain the situation, and angel just, like, cuts him off and is like, no. He's like, I'm sorry, There must be some mistake. We can't help you. So then later on, Wesley comes into Angel's office to discuss the case. We see the O'Reillys or not the O'Reilly's. The O'Reilly's are waiting out in the lobby and waiting to hear what they're gonna say. And Wesley's like, okay. But he walked away unharmed from getting hit down. And Angel's just fuming. He's like, a vampire find us. Yeah, exactly. The first male vampire slayer. And Wesley's like, okay, but, like, we can help. And Angel's like, we're not taking the case. Wesley's like, why not? Angel's like, well, we don't have time to deal with small stuff like this. And Wesley's like, small stuff? Like, this is what we do or what we're supposed to do. They need help, and they seem like good people. Angel says, all the more reason to get them out of here. We know that this what this place does to good people. Which I really do like the mirroring of the very end of the episode when Connor's like, I should get my parents out of here. This isn't their world. And how he's trying to protect them. And it's like, yeah, again, the parallels is very good. So, you know, in to kind of underline that, what this place does to good people. We have Gun in the basement of that suburban house, having yet another bloody heart ripped out. And then brutal. We just see him just, like, his body laying on the table, and it's just. He's been cut almost in half. His chest is just gaping and bleeding. And then it starts to heal. And then Gum Gun comes to and is like, who was it? What am I? I was looking for something. The words he was saying was when he first put the necklace on, and the demon hands Gun a little light bulb. And then he's. Gun's like, okay, I found it. And then he just, like, goes back upstairs. [00:22:52] Speaker B: It's the fact that the demon hands. [00:22:54] Speaker A: Him the light bulb every day. He's just like, pulls out a light. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Bulb, pulls out his heart, and then pulls out a light bulb and hands it to him. [00:23:02] Speaker A: He's just a giant mechanic is what he is. [00:23:05] Speaker B: You know what? I kind of like that. If you just go to the basement and there's just like a basement dwelling demon and they just find stuff. [00:23:11] Speaker A: His job is to just find stuff. [00:23:12] Speaker B: They bring it to you, search through your bees. [00:23:15] Speaker A: He's like a little house elf. It's like Dobby. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Except he looks like a giant BDSM demon. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that still makes me laugh. He does. Oh, my gosh. [00:23:28] Speaker B: Or what did. What did Spike call him? [00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was like a bds. [00:23:33] Speaker B: BDS demon that tears out hearts or something. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Honestly, I could use a BDS demon to find my things for me. [00:23:39] Speaker B: BDSM. BDSM. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah, BDSMs. Sorry. I do actually know what I'm talking about. I could use one to help me find things, because the amount of things that I misplace all the time. So it'd be wonderful. Just like, call down into the basement and be like, hey, right? [00:23:53] Speaker B: He just, like, screens around and he just knows where everything is. Organized chaos. And then he just gets it for you and that's it. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I could use that 100. Actually, it's more. My husband could use that. I only misplace things because my husband puts them in the wrong place. So of course, I don't ever misplace anything. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah, never. [00:24:15] Speaker A: So it seems that gun forgets. Like, he. He forgets that he was down there getting tortured, but then somehow remembers every day when it's time to go down again. At least that's the vibe that I get. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Or he likes, like, dread. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah. He doesn't know what's going to happen. [00:24:32] Speaker B: He's just afraid of the basement like the rest of us. [00:24:36] Speaker A: Honestly. Yes. I'm afraid of the basement because we have had so many basements and so many people stuck in basements for all of Buffy and all of Angel. And we're in Southern California. [00:24:46] Speaker B: I thought you meant in real life. [00:24:47] Speaker A: There are no basements in Southern California. [00:24:50] Speaker B: I thought you were talking about your real life. I'm like, who in your real life has ever been stuck in a basement? [00:24:55] Speaker A: I've been stuck in basements my whole life. Leia. In Southern California? [00:24:59] Speaker B: Is there basements there? [00:25:01] Speaker A: No, there are no basements in Southern California because there's no tornadoes. Oh. Growing up, we would go visit our friends who lived in the Midwest, and we always thought the basement was, like, the most magical thing ever, because there were never any basements where we lived growing up. Yeah, but, like, Spike being stuck in basements, Xander being stuck in basements, like, they're so, like. The show just really loves to use the basement as a metaphor for, like, doing horrible in life. And it just cracks me up every single time. [00:25:30] Speaker B: It's a pretty dark place. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally and metaphorically. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:35] Speaker A: So back in the training room, we have someone knocking Spike across the room. Pan over, we see that it's Illyria. There's like. It's a large, circular room. It's the first time we've seen this set. There's a bunch of weapons lining the walls, an observation window. And Illyria's like, you break so easily. Why do you bother getting back up? And Spike's like, all right, we need to set some ground rules. He's like, first off, and he likes signals. An invisible wall between them. No more punching me in the face. He's like, listen, I have an image to uphold. We're done with that. And he points at her. He's like, secondly, when I punched you in the face, you tell me how you feel so I can write that down on my clipboard. The way James Marsters just inhabits this character, the way he grabs the clipboard is just not the way that you normally would grab a clipboard. Like, you could tell this man does not know what he's doing. [00:26:25] Speaker B: But it's so good, though. [00:26:27] Speaker A: He's like, there are no Touching my clipboard. [00:26:29] Speaker B: He's so exasperated. [00:26:31] Speaker A: He's just, like, got ready to, like, stamp his feet. Be like, I'm in charge here. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:37] Speaker A: He's giving Lord Farquaad, who's, like, really tiny and impotent over there, like, no, you won't. [00:26:43] Speaker B: He's trying his best. That was me. I just love that he, like, genuinely wants to, like, like, successfully study Illyria. [00:26:52] Speaker A: He's like, I have a job. Stop making it harder for me. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Very serious job. That's what he's giving. Very important. Down on my clipboard after I punch you. Okay. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Is this. This is reminding me of. This whole thing is reminding me of. Have you seen Princess Bride? Please tell me you've seen Princess Bride. [00:27:13] Speaker B: No, I haven't. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Leia. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Well, I'm sorry. [00:27:17] Speaker A: How have you not seen Prince? That's like, everyone. [00:27:20] Speaker B: I don't know. I have it. Not me. I'm not everyone. [00:27:24] Speaker A: There's this moment where Wesley in Princess Bride. Wesley. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Wyndham Price. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Yes, Wesley. Wyndham Price is being tortured in, like, a base. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:27:39] Speaker A: It's like a tree in the forest that you go down into, like, this basement area. It's fantasy. Just. Just roll with it. Everyone else knows exactly what I'm talking about. [00:27:46] Speaker B: In fact, I have to just sc. [00:27:50] Speaker A: So you have to go down there. And the Prince Humperdinck is. That's his name. He is torturing, you know? Is that Prince Humperdinck? It's Prince Humperdinck's like, right hand man who has six fingers. And that's relevant in the movie. But he. There's. There's a reason he has six fingers. So he's torturing Wesley, and he, like this thing that causes him a lot of pain. And then he'll, like. Afterwards you have Wesley, like, whimpering on the table. And then the guy's like, excellent. Can you tell me how you feel? And he has a clipboard that he writes all these things down. And then Wesley whimpers and the man goes, interesting. And then just writes it on his clipboard. So, like, I don't know why that reminded me of it, but it's like basements and all that stuff makes sense. You know? Torture, basements, clipboards. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Spike is not torturing Illyria. I feel like Illyria is torturing Spike. [00:28:46] Speaker A: That's. That's why Spike is trying to create ground rules, because this is him trying to regain control over injuries that he's realizing he can't do anything about. And then Illyria, who we have not seen Give us any sort of human emotion for the three episodes that we've seen. Her starts smiling and is like, I enjoy hurting you. Spike's like, well, we're gonna have that. Yeah. [00:29:11] Speaker B: He's just like her little, like, stuffed animal. [00:29:14] Speaker A: Bring me a leash. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Bring me a leash. [00:29:17] Speaker A: So then she kicks Spike in the face. He drops his clipboard and punches her in the face with all his might. And then he's kind of like, how'd you like that? And then her head just kind of slightly turns, but it doesn't phase her. She smiles, backhands him, sending him across the room and into the door. Wesley walks in. Spike's just, like, in a heap on the floor. And he's like, how goes it? And Illyria's like, I've been hitting the half breed. He makes noise. And Spike's like, we're off to a bit of a rough start, but don't worry, I'll break her. Wesley's like, she's not a horse, Spike. You know that. And, okay, I don't know if you noticed, but as soon as Wesley walks into the room, Illyria, like, zones in on him, and she's, like, looking him up and down. Like, she's scanning him and assessing him. And she, like, moves in really close to him. And it's like, this is the first time that I got vibes that, like, Illyria might be slightly attracted to Wesley. At the very least that she's. There's something about him that fascinates her. I don't know, but it was interesting. [00:30:15] Speaker B: I think that's it. I think he fascinates her, especially because of his grief for Fred, which is her. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Their dynamic is just so interesting to me. It's so fun. [00:30:27] Speaker B: It's kind of up, but it's interesting. [00:30:30] Speaker A: That's why it is interesting. Yeah, it's real up in an interesting kind of way. Not like in Connor and Cordelia. [00:30:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Condelia. Yeah. Nothing is like condilia. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So then Spike's like, we're working on the basics, but don't worry, I'm writing it all down. Wesley's like, okay, fine. And Illyria says to Wesley, eureka. Frustration curls off of you like smoke. Spike says, actually, love, we call that scotch. And then Wesley's like, it's nothing. I'm just. Yeah, Spike would know. Wesley's like, it's nothing. I'm just, you know, I had a slight disagreement with Angel. And Spike's like, oh, old broody pants got you wound up? Keep in mind, he can't get laid without maybe going crazy. Makes it funny. And Illyria's like, this is ridiculous. In my time, a leader would punish your insolence with death. And then Wesley's like, we're not being insolent, Illyria. And Spike's like, I am. Speak for yourself over here. And Wesley's like, I just. It's just I don't understand. Always understand Angel. And Illyria is like, trying to figure him out. She's like, yet you follow him willingly. You're loyal to him. Wesley says, he's earned it. I trust he knows what he's doing. Anytime they do this, it's like, this is going to come back to bite everyone. So then in Angel's office, he's just fuming. Hamilton walks in. Angel immediately starts yelling at him, is like, what the hell is going on? [00:31:51] Speaker B: And then Hamilton's like, I'm not a little girl. We're not going to make love on the girl couch. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for reminding us of that. Hamilton instantly. Just don't want to be reminded of that. Okay, so I found this out. So apparently Adam Baldwin, who plays Hamilton, is distantly related to the Baldwin brothers. Alec Baldwin, Daniel Baldwin, William Baldwin and Stephen Baldwin. I guess they share a common Baldwin ancestry going back to the 1600s in England. [00:32:19] Speaker B: Jesus. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Yeah, so they're like, distantly related, which is just crazy. I have a couple quotes from him. He says that Joss would come by and say hi on angel, but he never directed episodes. That was a job where I called him up and said, dude, I need a job. That was early 2004. Firefly was canceled in 2002, and 2003 was a tough year for me. I needed a job. There just wasn't a lot of work to be found. I did video game work in some Jackie Chan adventure cartoon voiceover work. That's what saved my nuts. Joss was kind enough to come along and give me a cool part. He's been very good to me. He's pretty loyal that way. If you don't piss him off too much. [00:32:57] Speaker B: Oh, oh, no. [00:33:00] Speaker A: It's all these things that I would be like, oh, haha. They're just joking. And then after everything that, like, all the quotes I've read, I'm like, no, they're serious. Crazy how everyone just kind of knew. But that was just like, oh, that's just normal. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's because Josh was powerful. Right. Like, if you get in with somebody who's powerful and who can, like, advance your career and do things for you, that's Great. Right. But don't get on their bad side. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Yep. You know, careful what you say, what you do. Yeah, yeah. And then he says, I love David Boreanis. I think he's a sweetheart. Real professional. One of those jobs where the crew had been together forever. There were some hot girls on there, too. Jay Rich, Jay Richardson, Amy Acker and Andy Hallett were all really great. So I don't know. I need to find this quote. I saw this years ago, and I know I saw it somewhere, and I need to figure out where it was. But there's a scene. I'm not going to give spoilers. There's a scene between Hamilton and somebody else. Yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker A: And do you have. [00:33:56] Speaker B: That's immediately what I thought. [00:33:57] Speaker A: Have you seen the quote? [00:33:59] Speaker B: But I. I haven't seen the quote. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Apparently, he. He got turned on. Oh, no. And he was talking about how he had to like it. Like, she was pretty sexy. And so he kind of had to, like, wait a minute before he got up. Like, dude, dude, that's so unprofessional. Like, we just don't say that that's her job, you know? But at the same time, it's. She's pretty hot. [00:34:24] Speaker B: But anyway, she was pretty hot. [00:34:26] Speaker A: But there's. Hopefully. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. If not, I'll repeat it when we get there. But, yeah, I just. That is stuck in my mind. I think that might have been maybe in the commentary or something. I don't know. I'll need to find it. But I remember, like. Like seeing a quote a long time ago. Somebody knows where it is. Send it to me so I don't have to. One less bit of research I have to do for later on. Thanks. Okay. So Angel's like, my son walked through this door. Hamilton's like, yeah, and you made him walk right out. I found that interesting. Angel's like, I want him as far away from here as possible. And Hamilton's like, well, we probably should have gotten some information out of him first. Angel thinks that the senior partners were the ones that coveted, like, set this up. And Hamilton's like, no, they haven't. Which means that somebody else is doing this and somebody else is using your son to send you a message. So then we cut to the Riley family driving down the road. It's at night. And this is very reminiscent of that one episode I cannot remember, the one where Connor saves that family with the son in the backseat, who looks like he's 25. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker A: And this is, like, just paralleling the fact that Now Connor has that life that he's always wanted, and somebody else is now killing or, like, trying to kill his family. And now he has things and people to lose, which I really liked that. So the mom and dad are trying to talk in code. They're like, well, I guess we'll go somewhere else where someone else can handle our trust. And Connor's like, hey, just so you know, I know what we're really doing there. And he's like, you know, it's okay. I'm okay. Like, I got hit. I'm fine. That should make you happy. You know? He's like, I turned out. Everything turned out okay. And then Dad's like, well, the getting hit part. We thought you were dead. And then Connor's like, look, I'm not saying this isn't weird at all, but we'll get through it. You don't have to be scared. Then a demon attacks them, rips out the back door. And Connor gets out and starts fighting the demon. Dad gets out of the car and tries to help Connor. And then, as all of this is happening, we have this really cool scene where angel just, like, completely jumps from over the car, tackles the demon, engages two of them at once, and then ends up, like, holding one of them over his head and, like, slamming it on his knee over the. And then onto the ground. [00:36:40] Speaker B: It was like wrestling. [00:36:41] Speaker A: It was very, very cool. Yeah, you. David Borean is like, hey, I have some suggestions on what I could do for this fight scene right here. And they're like, sure, David. Whatever you want. David. David. So Connor, you know, in the past, would have been like, oh, my gosh, my dad's a demon. This is, like, horrible and all that stuff. He's like, this is the coolest thing ever. He's like, you almost broke that guy in half. That was awesome. Angel's like, well, you know, so happy. It's not a big deal. I mean, I do stuff like that a lot. There was this one time, and he's like, oh, my gosh, are we bonding? This is so cool. [00:37:15] Speaker B: Yeah. He's so giddy about it. [00:37:17] Speaker A: He has been. While, like, you know, Connor's father's, like, bleeding or something. So the mom and dad are like, we need to get the father to the hospital. And Angel's like, well, we got doctors at Wolfram and Hart. We can help. And then he's like, to Connor, you and I have some things we should probably talk about. So now we're in the hallway of Wolfram and Hart in the medical wing. Angel's like, your dad's gonna be fine. He's in good hands. Connor's like, what were those things that attacked us? Angel's like, demon. I'm. I'm looking into it. And Connor goes, is that what I am? Some kind of demon? And angel thinks about it and is like, no. Best we could tell, you're a healthy, well adjusted kid with enhanced abilities. And Connor's like, and you're a vampire. So we're like, slowly checking off all these boxes of triggers of things that normally would have really set Connor off. And it's just neat to see him responding and reacting like a normal person were would that wasn't, you know, brainwashed to hate his father and vampires. [00:38:10] Speaker B: I feel like this version of Connor is as well adjusted as, like. Like, Oz. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:17] Speaker B: Literally, he was just like, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Literally, when. When Oz finds out that there's vampires. [00:38:23] Speaker A: That is like one of my favorites. [00:38:24] Speaker B: In front of his face. And he's just like, oh, no. [00:38:27] Speaker A: Actually, a lot of things make sense now. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And he's like, okay with it. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Sick. Yep. Yeah. And that was Connor. He's like, okay, cool. And then he was even kind of okay with the fact, like, if I'm part demon or whatever, like, that's just. That's just what I am. Like, I'm some sort of superhero. And then Angel's like, wow, you're taking this pretty well. And Connor's like, well, what am I supposed to do? Complain? I was like, yeah, that's all you did for two seasons. Complain. He's like, I just don't know how I'm gonna explain it to my parents. You got family? Angel says, no, and he's like, oh, right, Vampire. So what are you, like, 500 years old? Angel's like, oh, do I look 500? And Connor's like, do you spend all your time making out with other vampires? Like Anne Rice novels? We're like, oh, that's how you got here, Connor. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Angel's like, well, I used to. But also, can we talk about the fact that angel was just like, no, I don't have any family. Meanwhile, the last so many seasons, they've been like, there's such a family, everybody. Angel Investigations. They're so family. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Yeah, but clearly they don't mean found family. They mean like, but, yeah, this would have been a great opportunity for Angel. Be like, yeah, except, you know, I got one of them killed, and the other one's currently being tortured, and then the other one is torturing himself, and then the other one is Also torturing himself. So we're doing great. Got so many. [00:39:49] Speaker B: What happened? [00:39:50] Speaker A: Losing them all. Connor's like, must be lonely. Angel's like, I keep busy. Connor's like, so you guys, like, fight crime, save the world? He's like, everyone here is a superhero. This place must be insane. As they walk down the hall together, angel and Connor have to stop his. Spike is thrown through the training room doors. His clipboard is thrown after him. And he's like, you filthy harlot, I'm going to tear your neck out. I was like, ah, yes. Wouldn't it be a Spike episode if he wasn't calling some woman names? [00:40:18] Speaker B: Woman. Yeah. Literally insulting some woman with a misogynistic. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Insult, you filthy harlot. That's when you know it's bad when he starts pulling out the insults from the. What is it, the 1800s? [00:40:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:32] Speaker A: He's. He didn't have to reach deep. He's going back to nurture for these ones. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:40:41] Speaker A: You want to meet some of my co workers? So they walk into the training room, and Illyria is standing on Spike's head. And he's just down there, like, trying to get up. Angel's like, all right, guys, you want to come here for a second? Like, we're in a preschool. And then Connor's like, what is she? And Angel's like, I don't really know. She's some sort of ancient demon. Connor's looking her up and down. He's like, she have any powers? Spikes? Like, glad you asked. So far I've established that she could hit like a Mack truck. Selectively. Selectively alter the flow of time. And. And he flips through the pages on his clipboard, possibly talk to plants. And then he gives the clipboard to angel. Like, spike out. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Spike is so done. He's like, I don't get paid enough. I don't get paid anything. And why I'm doing this, honestly. [00:41:25] Speaker A: And Illyria's like, I'd like to keep Spike as my pet. She's like, after much consideration, my test have conclusively told me that I would like to keep him as my pet. He is highly entertaining to me. [00:41:36] Speaker B: I think this. This experiment was great in letting Illyria find out that she enjoys pets. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Mm. Yeah. [00:41:45] Speaker B: She is a pet owner. She wants to be a pet owner. [00:41:49] Speaker A: And you know what? [00:41:50] Speaker B: Spike's important. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Highly entertaining. But I cannot guarantee that he is house trained. [00:41:55] Speaker B: So he'll definitely bite for sure. Yeah. He'll pee on the floor. [00:42:01] Speaker A: He'll walk all over your Furniture. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah. He will poop 1 million percent. [00:42:08] Speaker A: I don't know when he'll bathe out of spite. [00:42:10] Speaker B: He'll do it out of spite, too. He'll be like, mad at you. And then he'll go in the corner where the carpet is and poop, like, right there. [00:42:18] Speaker A: He'll attack your friends that come over. Yeah. I mean, if you want him, go ahead, but can't guarantee it'll be a. A profitable thing. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Yeah, he'll be like a husky in the middle of the night, just like, yelling. [00:42:31] Speaker A: Yeah, he's nocturnal. Or keep you up at night. Yeah, exactly. So angel introduces them all. And Connor's, like, looking really nervous. And Illyria is, like, staring at him. And Connor's like, I like your outfit. And Illyria's like, your body warms and tells angel that he's lusting after her. And I was like, oh, my gosh, Poor Connor. Can this poor kid not lust into peace like this poor guy? [00:42:57] Speaker B: But he's, like, oogling her. He's, like, looking her up and down like, man, did you say oogling? [00:43:03] Speaker A: You mean ogling? [00:43:04] Speaker B: No, he's oogling. [00:43:08] Speaker A: Oogly boogly. [00:43:09] Speaker B: I didn't think he's. [00:43:11] Speaker A: He was. It wasn't that bad. [00:43:12] Speaker B: His jaw was practically on the floor. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Kid. Anytime that he has a boner, like, everybody just. Everyone just attacked him. Stop judging him. Like, let him just be a normal kid in peace. And he's like. He's like, oh, it's just. It's the outfit. He goes, I guess I've always had a thing for older women. And angel under. [00:43:32] Speaker B: They were supposed to. [00:43:37] Speaker A: And I feel like that was such a fourth wall break. Like him to the writers. They were supposed to fix it. Oh. I audibly, like, cackled. And Andrew came over and was like, what? What? And I, like, went back and showed it to him. He was like, I don't get it. I was like, no, you don't understand. Then I was like, nevermind, I don't want to explain this. [00:43:56] Speaker B: There's lore. [00:43:57] Speaker A: There's a lot of lore that I. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Don'T feel like explaining. [00:44:00] Speaker A: And I did actually explain it to him. And he was like, oh, okay. And I was like, no, you understand. This is funny. Whatever. [00:44:06] Speaker B: Anyway, laugh. Andrew. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, Andrew's like, I don't get. He. He wasn't in the trenches with us. [00:44:11] Speaker B: No, no. You have to be in the trenches to get. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Exactly. Totally. So then Lauren walks in, another one of those, like, potential triggers. And I don't know if it was just me But Lauren just wasn't his normal self. Like, he's not happy. Normally, he would have. Is like, he just was, like, the messenger. And then he just leaves immediately. And I was like, no, this is your. This is like, your other mom over here. And it was just so sad. I just. I want to give Lauren such a big hug. So then Connor is like, oh, my gosh, when he sees Lauren, man, this place is way better than college. And then Lauren's like, yeah, okay, angel, babe, Wes is requesting your presence upstairs. He has a little demon info for your peepers. Angel hands the clipboard back to Spike. And then they all go out. Connor waves delirium, spikes like, it was nice meeting you. And then back in the hallways, we have angel finding, like, realizing, oh, hey, like, you're in college. And Connor's like, yeah. Angel's like, we're at. Connor says, Stanford. And Angel's like, really? And he, like, gets all excited, and. [00:45:13] Speaker B: I was so proud. [00:45:16] Speaker A: I love it. So then in Angel's office, Wesley is showing pictures of demons to angel and Connor, and they're trying to figure out what kind of demons and basically create a paper trail and figure out where they came from. And Wesley's like, they're known henchmen of a warlock called Sivis. And he says, he's powerful, heads up a large demon empire, his tendrils stretching throughout la. Metaphor tendrils. And Connor's like, well, what does he want with me? And Wesley's like, well, if he's using his demons, he's not trying to remain anonymous. And Angel's immediately like, okay, I'm gonna go visit Mr. Vale. Connor's like, I'll come with. Angel's like, no, you're here. Wesley's like, okay, well, we hardly know anything about him. What? Angel's like, it's just not up for discussion. Wesley's like, we'll take backup. And Angel's like, I said I'd take care of it. Wes, drop it. And both Connor and Lauren just look really uncomfortable. And then Wesley, like, all of this is doing. All this is doing is just pushing Wes to go do some research. Like, he's like, something's up. I'm gonna go find out what it is. And I feel like angel should have known. Like, Wesley has all of this stuff, stuff at his disposal. He could easily figure out what's going on, but he doesn't. So Wesley immediately goes to his office. He says in the phone, get me everything you can find on Saiva's veil. And we're all like, oh, we see what's happening. So in Vale's place, okay, this guy is like in this very large, elegant, well decorated room and chair and he has an ivy drip attached to him. And he's like, wheezing and looks like on death's door. Suddenly, like a ginormous demon gets thrown through the door. Angel walks, walks through. And the actor who plays Sivis is Dennis Christopher. He played in Django Unchained, Charles Paddock in Chariots of Fire, and in it he played Eddie Casprak. In it, the newest iteration, but he's been in some, like, pretty big movies and stuff. So angel is like, okay, what's going on? Cybus says, I wasn't trying to kill your son. I simply needed him to understand what he is capable of. Veil says that he built Connor. And then we cut back to Wesley's office and Lauren is sitting at a reading table setting, like, set up in Wesley's office, reading under the glow of light. Harmony comes in carrying files which she hands to Wesley. Her outfit was so freaking cute this episode. I mean, when does she not look cute? But her outfit was just, ah, she looks so good. So Harmony says, these are everything that the clerk had on Veil. And Wesley starts going through like, accountings and stuff. And Lauren tells him that Wolverman Hart did business with him and that Vale is basically one of the go to warlocks when it comes to magic, like memory reconstruction, mind control, temporal shifts. And then he finds like, basically a receipt that Wolfram and Hart had paid him for. And he's like, this is a lot, a lot of money. He supervised some of the most powerful sorcerers in the West Coast. And then Wesley looks, looks at the date and realizes that that huge thing happened the day that they took over Wolfram and Hart. So he's basically just piecing it all together. Yep. [00:48:18] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Which is crazy. I'll talk about it later. Yeah, there's something crazy. But anyway, okay. So back at Veil's place, we end up finding out that obviously Vale's the one that built all of Connor's memories. And angel ends up threatening Vale. And Vale says, basically, like, I created all of his memories. Like, they aren't necessarily real, but they are real to him because he remembers it happening. It's a classic dawn situation. And Angel's like, you built his memories? What do you want? Veil says, I need someone dead, sergeant. He says, you know, there's a prophecy out there. I need Connor to kill him. He's in this urn. Veil shows that he has the Urn, and he says that urns tend to break. He's afraid that veil will get out and he needs finality to his affairs. And then he holds out a cube and says that it's an Orlon window and says that if it breaks around someone whose mind has been altered, then all his old memories will come rushing back. And he threatens angel and says, careful Angel. I gave Connor his happy life. Are you certain you can kill me before I can take it away from him? I built your son. I'm not the sort of man that you want as an enemy. And so Angel's like, fine, I'll do it. I'll kill Sajan. And Baal's like, well if it was that simple, like, like I do it myself. But the prophecy is very clear. There's only one person who can kill Sajan. He's like, so you see our problem. I turned your son into a healthy boy and now I need you to turn him back into a killer. Oh, yikes. Oh my gosh. This is like from Angel's perspective, so heart wrenching because everything he's done has been to protect Connor and to help him remember or like help him to forget all of the bloodshed and all of the violence and stuff. And now he has to kind of introduce that to him again like, like, oh my gosh, that's horrible. So then, well, okay, well my one thing is though, I don't understand Sivus's threat because the Orlon window only works around people. So even if he shattered it right then and there, it's not going to do anything because Connor won't remember anything. So I don't know why angel didn't just up and kill Sivus like right there because even if Sivus shattered it, it wouldn't do anything. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah, but angel doesn't know where that thing is or like if Cybus has some type of, I don't know, like. [00:50:44] Speaker A: A fail safe, like something else, like. [00:50:45] Speaker B: A fail safe mechanism, something. I just feel like it's too risky. Yeah, like you, you would want the cube, like he would want the thing with him before he did anything. [00:50:54] Speaker A: That's true. I feel like maybe the episode could have done a better job of Sivas being like, right now I have people watching Connor and they'll shatter this cube or whatever because in the moment it seemed like Sibus was going to just like drop it and angel was like, oh my gosh, no, like I can't touch you because you'll drop the cube right now. And like it was like true, very Clear that it's only around the people who are in the vicinity that it will work, you know? But anyway, I'm just nitpicking. So, back in Angel's office, Connor is being updated by angel that he, like, BAAL wants him to kill somebody. He says, a demon named Saj. And we fought him before. There's a prophecy that you're the only one that can kill him. Wesley's like, why are. Are we even entertaining this? This is absolutely ridiculous. Angel's like, well, he made some convincing threats. Wesley's like, since when do we give into threats? And Connor puts two and two together and is like, oh, he's not threatening you. He's threatening my family. And Angel's like, yes, that's absolutely. What's going on. Sure. Your family. Wesley's like, well, we can't trust anything from Veil. Angel, he did a massive spell the day that we took over Wolverman Hart. And he's like, we need to understand why. And then Connor interrupts and is like, he's pretty strong, this Sajan. And Wesley's like, last time you fought him to Angel, Saja nearly killed you. And Angel's like, yeah, this is different, though. You're special. Connor's like, we don't have a choice. Wesley's like, we absolutely do have a choice. We just need to figure out what Vale did. Angel's like, we don't have time. Connor's like, all right, if I kill Sajan, Veil will leave my family alone. And he's like, all right, well, what are we waiting for? And I like angel, like, tell. Tell Wesley. But again, I know Angel's trying to Connor. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that opens up such a big can of worms if he just were to tell Wesley, like, yeah, I don't. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Know, like, give him something, though, you know, the fact that Angel's just not saying anything is only going to make Wesley dig harder. [00:52:46] Speaker B: So, like, I think it's also the fact that, like, all this mention of Connor now is bringing back all of the. Probably some of the resentment that angel has towards Wesley and, like, the mistrust. And he doesn't really want to tell him because he doesn't trust Wesley with Connor specifically. Right. Like, yeah, he kind of wants to shield Connor from Wesley. [00:53:07] Speaker A: That's true. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Which I don't blame him, honestly. But, yeah, I mean, it all that's very. Happens anyway after, so. [00:53:16] Speaker A: And I gotta say, again, I really like this iteration of Connor. The guy who's determined, who's caring about his family, who's caring for other People, which we saw bits and pieces of that in the past seasons, but there's just something. [00:53:28] Speaker B: It's something that he craved before, and now he actually has it. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Now there's conviction. [00:53:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:35] Speaker A: You know, because I feel like the Connor before was just kind of aimless and drifting and didn't really know exactly what he wanted or where he was going. And this Connor is just a little bit more grounded, which, you know, as he should be. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:48] Speaker A: So then, in the basement of that suburban house again, Gun is being tortured, begging the dungeon master. The BDSM dungeon master, please, no. Hamilton walks in, tells the demon that he just needs a minute, pulls the necklace off of Gun. Gun comes to himself, and Hamilton offers him a proposition. He says, well, I think you want to get out of here. We can help with that. He's like, I don't think your friends are going to rescue you. They're pretty busy. And he's like, all we need. Need you to do is. And Gun doesn't even let him finish and is like, can I have my necklace back? And then he takes it and then says, come on, Sparky. Let's go. Puts the necklace back on and says, this heart ain't gonna cut itself out. And Hamilton's like, all right, thank you for your time. He leaves. As we hear Gun completely forget everything again and just beg as the demon cuts into him one more time. That's really sad. [00:54:40] Speaker B: He's never gonna accept any deal with Wolfram and Hart ever again. [00:54:43] Speaker A: Nope. [00:54:44] Speaker B: Which. That's fair. [00:54:46] Speaker A: Hey, Growth. You know what? Nothing is as important now. And I. I respect that. And it's just nice to see Gun have something. A change, Some sort of an arc. It's really refreshing. Would be nice if he was out of a basement, but, you know, at least they're progressing somewhere with him. So then, back in the training room, Angel's trying to help Connor, you know, figure out how to fight and use his powers. And he's like, all right, so, you know, I'll be there with you. And Connor's like, you're gonna hold Sajin down while I stab him? And Angel's like, well, prophecy doesn't say you can't have a little help. And Connor's like, well, that doesn't seem fair. And Angel's like, well, fair is not something we worry about. And Connor goes, maybe you should. I'm not a bully. If I'm gonna do this, you gotta let me do it my way. And I was like, oh, he's got honor. He's got honor. I Remember when angel had honor? I miss you. I missed that. [00:55:38] Speaker B: I do miss that, too. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Remember season one, when he went into the ring and he wouldn't kill that guy? Yeah. Like, I missed that. [00:55:46] Speaker B: Angel, he was honorable. [00:55:47] Speaker A: Angel, I need to go watch. [00:55:49] Speaker B: It still is, but now he's just doing dirty. [00:55:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It shows how much, like, Wolfram and Hart has changed him, too. Yeah. [00:55:58] Speaker B: It shows how much, like, he's had to adapt to his environment, you know? [00:56:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I can't really sad. Fully fault him for. But at the same time, that is a choice that he made, you know, for sure. So then Angel's like, all right, let me show you a few things. Connor's like, all right, I'm all noble and stuff, but I'm not an idiot. I've been in one fight my entire life, and you bailed me out of it. He, like, messes up the ax and the weapons, and they all cling to the floor. And Angel's like, okay, let's stay away from the weapons right now. And then he tells him that he's faster than Sajan, that he sergeant talks a lot. Boy, does he ever. He's like, he'll try to lull you into slowing down. Don't listen. Hit him quick. Keep moving. Connor's like, do you really think I can do this? And Angel's like, I know you can. So then in the archives, Wesley is on a mission. I guess Flo doesn't work here anymore. I loved this scene because what a call. Back to that scene in Home with Lila and the. The moment where the Contract. He goes in to try and find the Contract. But also, that is the last scene that we see with Wesley before he had his memories wiped. [00:57:04] Speaker B: True. [00:57:05] Speaker A: So that's the last time we saw the full Wesley. And he's doing something very, very similar. Illyria follows him as, like, you so concerned with names, dates, times. And Wesley's like, reality's been changed. And Illyria's like, define change. The world is as it is. He goes to the same file cabinet that he snuck into to burn Lila's contract. And Illyria says, you are a summation of recollections. Each change is simply a point of experience. And Wesley's like, we are more than just memories. And Illyria says, and yet Fred changed the moment her memory did. Wesley gets shocked and goes, fred's memories were changed. And Illyria says, in place is. Is. She says she cannot see, like, what they were before they are gone. And I didn't catch this until this. Watch through. Because Illyria is talking, obviously, about Fred's memories that were changed from angel spell. I thought, for some reason, like every other rewatch, that she meant that Illyria came coming in and taking over Fred's minds has changed her memories. And so the difference between Illyria and Fred is just memories. But this makes so much more sense. [00:58:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:10] Speaker A: That why Wesley suddenly becomes so much more desperate to break the cube at the very end and why he could. He, like, connects the dots and goes, oh, maybe this will bring Fred back. Yeah. That always makes a lot more sense. But it's also devastating, Leia, because now Wesley's always going to question if the only reason that Fred was with him in season five was because she didn't remember all the horrible things he did in season four and three. [00:58:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And he'll never get to know because. [00:58:35] Speaker A: He'Ll never know anymore. Because even angel questioned this in the last episode with Spike when Spike's like, oh, her staying at Wolfram and Hart was her choice. And Angel's like, was it because he knows he altered her memories? And she might have chosen differently. [00:58:49] Speaker B: But to be fair to angel, when we were watching Home, the gang had. They made a choice to go there before the memory spell even happened. [00:59:00] Speaker A: True. [00:59:00] Speaker B: They decided that they were going to join before angel decided to alter their memory memories. So I think in that respect, I think it was her choice. But I get what, like, they were trying to say is that, like, she's not fully informed. [00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:16] Speaker B: About everything. [00:59:16] Speaker A: I do. I do think there is some sort of question about whether she would still be with Wesley if she knew all the things that had happened. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:24] Speaker A: Because season four, Fred really bulked when she found out that Lila and Wesley had been sleeping together and all of that stuff. Like, there was a part of her that really. That made her very uncomfortable. But again, Fred is also a different person in season five. So we just don't know. [00:59:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:44] Speaker A: So Illyria's like, does this change your view of Fred? Is she still the person you thought she was? Wesley's jaw drops. He reads the file, and he goes, no, none of us are. And then he drops the file, and he and Illyria leave. And the camera pans down, and we see the contract signed in blood by Angel. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. [01:00:02] Speaker B: Can we take a look at that contract? We need to know more. [01:00:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally read it. Can we know exactly what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in Vale's place, Angel and Connor walk in. Connor's like, this place smells like a retirement home. Vale's like, welcome. I've been waiting for you see? Coughs the corner. Connor's like, oh, Lord, look at him. And Angelica, shh. And he's like, all right, we're not gonna stay for long. Connor's like, immediately cuts angel offices. Here's how it works. I kill the Sajan thing. We walk. You come near my family again, and I'll slit your throat. Vale, like, grabs his throat. [01:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah, you tell him. [01:00:40] Speaker A: Connor's like, and if that doesn't kill you, I'll chop your whole head off. And if that doesn't work, I'll. I'll just keep stabbing you till you bleed to death. And angel, like, Connor, like, shocked. And Connor's like, understand? And Bale's like, I do. Connor's like, cool. All right, so where is he? So then Vale points to this room, and Connor, like, goes in, and there's, like, a table with a bunch of weapons on it. And the urn, that's, like, right in the middle. And Angel's like, all right, listen. He's going to talk to you. Don't let him distract you. Even if he's on the ground, do not take your eyes off of him, whatever you do. Connor's like, okay, you're starting to freak me out. Like, you're hovering. Angel's like, okay, sorry. He, like, takes a step back. And then right before angel grabs his arm and says, says, okay, hang on, and straightens his collar. [01:01:23] Speaker B: And he's like, it's so cute. [01:01:24] Speaker A: Go get him. He's like, I'll be right over here. [01:01:27] Speaker B: He's, like, sending him off to his first day of school or something. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Connor's like, hang on here, dude. So Connor goes in, takes it all in. Not sure what he's supposed to do. Turns around, but where there was a doorway. Now it's just a wall. And he's sealed into this room, but angel and Vale can see everything. Connor just can't hear them. And so Bael says. Says that he can't risk Sajin getting loose. He has a nasty habit of trying to kill him. But don't worry. Your boy is very brave. I'm sure he'll do you proud. And then Connor's like, open sesame. Or whatever, opens the urn. Sajan comes out, you know, cracks his neck or whatever. He's like, thank you, mortal, for releasing me from my cursed prison. Now take me to McDonald's. I have things I need to get there. [01:02:10] Speaker B: The McDonald's. [01:02:11] Speaker A: Me and my friend, we used to hang out at McDonald's all the time. Please take me. [01:02:15] Speaker B: I Just want to know what shampoo and conditioner Sajan has been using in the urn. Urn. Because his hair is looking silky and shiny and beautiful. [01:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, some. There's some sort of moisturizing something inside of that urn for sure. [01:02:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So Connor's like, wow, really? You're gonna grant me three wishes? And Sasha's like, nah, I'm just messing with you. And then he's like, well, I owe you one. He did say the urn wasn't exactly a day at the spa, but I beg to differ. [01:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he looks pretty rested and glowing. [01:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Every time I hear I beg to differ, I think of Ted. I begged a different little lady. And Connor's like, all right, well, I probably should tell you. You and I, we're supposed to fight. Sajan's like, is that right? And Connor's like, yeah. And then Sajan figures it out. He looks at Connor and is like, oh, you're him. Connor's like, yeah, I'm me. Hi. You can take a moment if you want. There's some weapons and stuff over here if you think you'll need them. I was like, he's so cute. Oh, my gosh. Sasha's like, thanks. Angel's like, no, no, no, stop talking. Just attack him. Why is he talking to him? Sajan's like, it's been a while since we've seen each other. How'd Kortoth work out for you? And Connor's like, worked out great. Thanks for asking. Sasha, it's like, you know, I've had a long time to plan for this moment. I figured you'd be a lot more intimidating. And Connor's like, yeah, well, I figured I was going to Tony Roma's with my folks tonight, but I'm here. Learn to cope. And there's the magic word. [01:03:47] Speaker B: So funny. [01:03:48] Speaker A: Learn to cope. [01:03:48] Speaker B: Because Sajin is such a yapper. But Connor is out yapping him. [01:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So true. So true. [01:03:56] Speaker B: He just. This is. He's so funny. [01:03:58] Speaker A: This is the Darla part of Connor. This is not the angel part. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:02] Speaker A: The yapping part. But him saying, I learned. Or, like, learned to cope. Cope. That's what Connor did. Connor learned to cope. Sasha's like, I'll work on it. Then he pulls a fast one, knocks Connor to the ground. Angel tries to rush towards the room, but the barrier prevents them from seeing out and also prevents angel from getting in. Vale says, sorry, not your fight. Connor's like, ow, that really hurt. Sajan's like, did it? Connor's like, yeah, I'M sorry. Saja's like, you need to call a timeout. Connor's like, no, I'm all right. So Sajan takes a couple more swings at Connor, misses. Connor ducks out of the way. Connor punches and connects with Sajan's face. But Sajan is clearly, like, much stronger or at least much more seasoned of a fighter. Angel's stressing out, tells Veil to open the doorway. All of a sudden, he sees that Veil's holding the glass cube. And Veil's like, or you'll what? Relax? Your son has to grow up sooner or later, sit back and watch his future unfold. So Connor's not doing so great. And Sajan's like, you know, I went through a lot of trouble to get rid of you. What a colossal waste of time that turned out to be. Angel turns back to Vale after Sajan gives Connor a pretty nasty kick. But he turns and sees that Veil is frozen in time and isn't holding the box anymore. But now Lyria's standing there besides Wesley, who's holding the yellow cube. And Wesley says, you changed the world. And Angel's like, wes, like, what are you doing? And Wesley says, you sold us out. And then he looks at the cube and says, Is this your 30 pieces of silver? And angel says, give that to me. And Illyria is like, he doesn't follow you any longer. Meanwhile, Sajan has Connor by the lapels and has slammed him onto the table. He says, these prophecies are turning out to be pretty overrated. I gotta tell you, kid, you're making a good case for the whole concept of free will. Wesley says, you changed the world. Like, the irony here of, you know, talking about free will while, you know, angel has changed people's memories and taken away their free world, free will. And Angel's like, he's my son, Wesley. Connor's my son. Wesley just doesn't even blink. Looks at Illyria and says, did you trade her? Did you trade Fred for your son? And he says, everything that's happened since we took over Wilfriman Heart, everything that's happened to her, did you know? Was Fred the price? And angel says, no, I can explain. Just put that down. Wesley says, why are you so afraid of this? He said, it would bring back the past. Will it undo what you've done? And Angel's like, no, know. It won't bring her back. Wesley's just like, let's find out. He starts to, like, motion, like he's going to throw the glass cube to the ground. And angel rushes towards him. Desperately says, please, you have to trust me. And Wesley says, I can't. Not anymore. And just. [01:06:36] Speaker B: Oh. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Slams the cube to the ground. [01:06:40] Speaker B: And then we get a PTSD flashback. [01:06:42] Speaker A: We do, because it's all of the things that we were, like, not really a huge fan of, except for, you know, Lila and. And Wes. But everything else. Else was not great. Critically Touched says, although Angel's memory spell took away a piece of who Wesley was, it didn't fundamentally change him as a person. It instead had the effect of setting him back a couple years in his development. More than just our memories, it's how we act on those memories that define who we are. Our memories are the recollection of these choices and actions. Removing memories doesn't change us entirely, but it does rob us of the progress we've made in our life journey. So while memories are crucial in that they help us learn from the past past, they don't entirely define us. It's our choices that define us. What angel did to Wesley by stripping his memories is to remove awareness of his prior choices, which ends up causing him to repeat the past and betray angel once again by breaking the Orlon Window. Oh, yeah. [01:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:33] Speaker A: Also, like, I feel like Wesley already is not doing well, and having all these memories returned to him is just gonna have him hanging on by a thread by the end of this. Also, I never put two and two together, but I realized after this that this means that Lauren and Gun don't get their memories back. Just Wes and Fred and Connor. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Oh, that's so true. [01:07:53] Speaker A: So Gun and Lauren never end up knowing. [01:07:57] Speaker B: Do they ever talk about it? We'll have to. I'll have to watch them. [01:08:00] Speaker A: I don't think they do, but I. I don't think Lauren and Gun ever get their memories back. [01:08:04] Speaker B: Damn. [01:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I, for some reason thought everybody did. [01:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. I thought that once you brought Broke the Cube thing. [01:08:12] Speaker A: No. [01:08:12] Speaker B: Everyone in the world who knew Connor. [01:08:14] Speaker A: Right. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Would, like, remember everything, which is why. But it is just the people in the vicinity. [01:08:19] Speaker A: And I don't. Whoops. I don't know why they decided to do that. Because it would have been so much that would have made Vale's threat earlier on. If, like, if I smash this, everybody's memories get back. And that's how I always saw it. I didn't think it was just the people in the vicinity. I don't know why they chose not to have Lauren and Gun not get their memories back. [01:08:37] Speaker B: That is very bizarre. [01:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I don't know. We'll have to watch for that in the next couple of episodes. [01:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah, the next episode is, like, really? There's, like, one thing that I remember from the next episode. I don't know why. It's one that I don't remember much of, but I'm curious to see what they're gonna do with this, because after the next episode is, like, something completely unrelated. [01:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:01] Speaker B: And then it's like, the two parts season finale or series finale. So. [01:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. We'll have to, like, see what happens with that. But back at Vale's place, obviously the Orlon Window has just been broken. We get all the memories. We see Connor with a tear going down his cheek. We see Wesley kind of react. Like, Wesley gets knocked to the floor and just is, like, flooded with past memories, staring at angel and shock. Angel sees Wesley reacting to those memories and then remembers his son was nearby. He gets up and looks out, and we see that Connor suddenly reaches up and grabs Sajan's throat, squeezes, uses his grip to sling Sajan over the table. And then he strikes a pose that's very familiar. Very similar to his first appearance on the show. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say it's just like season three, Connor, when he came right out of Kortoth. [01:09:52] Speaker A: Yep. He rolls over the tabletop, grabs an ax and faces Saja. And they start to, like, punch and kick quick. But finally, Connor ends up swinging his ax at Sashan's head, slicing it clean off. And then the barrier disappears. Angel walks in, is like, Connor. And Connor kind of, like, snaps out of it and is like, whoa. You see that? I went a little hardcore there for a second. That guy made me really cranky. And then he, like, looks at the bloody ax, and Angel's like, are you okay? And Connor says, yeah, I guess I don't really like people touching my neck, you know? And then Angel's, like, trying to, like, see what he knows. And Connor says, hey, can we get out of here? I'd like to go back, see my parents. And he puts down the ax and he says, this whole fighting thing, I'm not really sure it's for me. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Oh, buddy. Seriously, buddy. [01:10:42] Speaker A: I just like, buddy. [01:10:44] Speaker B: I know. [01:10:46] Speaker A: Oh, man. So then back in Wesley's office, Wesley's just, like, doing worse and worse. Illyria says, you betrayed Angel. You stole his son. He tried to kill you. You know, it would be really great if, like, Wesley had, like, apologized after getting his memories restored and being like, wow, it really sucks to be betrayed. [01:11:05] Speaker B: Which is why the one thing about this episode is that we didn't get, like, a confrontation after. I just. We really needed that. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I agree. Hopefully we'll get that next episode. If not, I will forever curse the writers for. [01:11:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:20] Speaker A: The way that they have done this. [01:11:21] Speaker B: Not doing anything with it. [01:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a big deal. Like, we've waited all season long for Wesley, in particular to get his memories back. And Connor. Yeah. So Leary is like, are these the memories you needed back? Does this now make you Wesley? Wesley says, at least I know what happened. Laria says, do you? There are two sets of memories. Those that happen and those that are fabricated. It's hard to tell which is which. Which. Which is so cool that they have her saying that, because obviously, if you wanted to bring Fred back, it's like, okay, which are they? Like, if. Especially if she starts delving into Fred's memories and stuff. Is there. [01:11:57] Speaker B: So now I wonder, because Illyria was there too, does she now have access to the real memories? [01:12:03] Speaker A: I think that's the case. Yeah. Right. Because she said she could not access them before, but now she says there are two sets of memories. So Illyria. Illyria now has all of the like. Which is kind of cool because she had talked about how there were fragments of Fred when she took over Fred's body, but a lot of Fred has been lost. But now does she have more Fred inside of her because the memories have been returned. [01:12:26] Speaker B: Maybe. [01:12:27] Speaker A: And that's what's the catalyst for the next episode. [01:12:29] Speaker B: Like, those memories were never there to begin with, to be shattered. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Yes. Now they're back. [01:12:34] Speaker B: Fully return force, which that could have led into season six. Six, where Fred and Illyria kind of parts. Oh, my God. That's. I would have loved to see that. [01:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So then Wesley's like, try to push reality out of your mind. Focus on the other memories. They were created for a reason. And Illyria says to hide from the truth, and Wesley says to endure it. So I think there's kind of this understanding that Wesley has right now of why angel did what he did. [01:13:05] Speaker B: And that goes back to what we talked about in home about is this, like, merciful or is it wrong? [01:13:12] Speaker A: It can be both. Maybe mercy. Mercy can also be wrong. [01:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. [01:13:17] Speaker A: Or something that's merciful can also be wrong. But it could be the best of two horrible options. [01:13:22] Speaker B: Right. [01:13:23] Speaker A: You know? Yeah. And I. Yeah. And it's. It's so sad how this also kind of mirrors what Gun's going through, because Gun doesn't want to remember anything. He'd rather endure Everything without thinking about reality, probably because reality is too painful and because he's trying to punish himself. But also, this kind of gives us a clue as to why Connor's able to be more well adjusted because he now has the good memories that help him endure the hardship that he faced before them. And again, Wesley doesn't have much good to hold on to in this reality. In the world that was manufactured, Fred wanted him. And so this kind of goes into what we were talking about last episode, with the Fred being idealized for Wesley and how I'd always kind of thought that that was unintentional sexism on the part of the writers, and it could still be. And, like, maybe them not knowing how to write for women. But now I'm kind of like, it. Was it intentional, or were the writers intentionally writing Fred in such a way that she's supposed to be a representation of Wesley's desire for the fantasy and the dream over painful reality, and Fred is just kind of the symbol of that? [01:14:27] Speaker B: Well, I think. I think that's very possible, considering how all this ends. [01:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Right. As we're edging into it. But, yeah, it's very. It's very fascinating as we're. As it's. We're kind of unpacking it, because I was remembering some of these things, but not everything. And as we're, like, dipping our toes further and further, I'm like, okay, gotcha. [01:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is there. I hadn't noticed these things before either, but it's definitely there. [01:14:54] Speaker A: But everything that, like, Angelus taunted Wesley with last season, the Rag and Bone Shop of the Soul, and all that stuff about how he's like, Wesley, like, you want the fantasy so much. You want to be seen as the white knight. You want to be seen as the guy who saves the girl and all this stuff. And, like, how deep down, I think Wesley is more comfortable with the fantasy than reality, which is so sad. [01:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Which, like, we talked about this in the last episode, I think. But, you know, Wesley's arc is often labeled as, like. Like, the best arc in the Buffy verse, and I would tend to agree. But it's interesting because magic, it's a cautionary tale. It's a tale of, like, these are the choices that you make that lead you down a dark path and lead you down to tragedy. And if you had made a slightly different choice somewhere along the line, things would be so different. But it's just so well done that. I don't know, it's just you would expect, like, Somebody to be like, oh, this is a really well done arc because it's, like, positive, but this is not very positive. This is a warning. [01:15:59] Speaker A: Well, and then it kind of makes you look back at everything, because I. I know our biggest gripe in season three and four was Wesley never apologizing to Angel. And we were kind of like, is the show, like, making this out to be a good thing? And I think there were times that it was, but now looking at the entire thing, it's like, it's possible that the show was not necessarily saying that was a good thing. And they're gonna show the conclusion of Wesley's arc and be like. Like, this is what happens when you don't admit your mistakes and don't face, like, yeah, Wesley not apologizing is him once again not facing reality. You know what I mean? [01:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Like, it's just another symptom. [01:16:34] Speaker B: I think that's what makes his arc so unique, because every other character. When you talk about. You know, when people talk about the characters that have the best arcs, they always talk about, oh, my God, they grew so much. They changed. They became better people. Da, da. But I feel like with Wesley, his arc is about, like. Like the deconstruction of Wesley. [01:16:51] Speaker A: Yes. [01:16:52] Speaker B: Right. Which I think is so unique. And that's why I think it's so interesting, because you see a million, like, arcs that are, like, spikes and Cordelias and everyone else that everybody always talks about having the best arc, but you don't often see arcs like Wesley's, especially not in media and, like, the early 2000s. Right. Like, I feel like you do see that more in this day and age because it's more varied, but, yeah, it's just not as well done. And I think that's. It's such a testament to the writing of the show and specifically for this character, because I feel like they kind of do stuff that's similar with Buffy, too. Like Buffy in season six. Like, Buffy goes through a huge roller coaster, and even Angel. Angel's arc is really underrated because I feel like it's very. There's a lot of ups and downs. But like you. You said a few times, like, angel kind of stays the same. [01:17:45] Speaker A: He learns the same lesson over and over again, but each time, he learns it a little bit more. [01:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's still, like, interesting to watch. It's not uninteresting, but it's not. What's. What's the right word I'm looking for? It's not like your standard character arc where they Go from one thing and then become better or they grow. [01:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think there's a misconception and I've said this so many times, people think that if a character looks drastically different from how they started out, that that was a good character arc. And it's like, no, I mean, I think about Don Draper on Mad Men. I don't know if you've ever seen Mad Men. [01:18:24] Speaker B: I have. Yeah. [01:18:25] Speaker A: That fool. [01:18:27] Speaker B: He's a fool when he starts and he's a fool when it ends. [01:18:30] Speaker A: When he ends, you just understand him a little bit more, you know, but he, you. He has an arc arc and it's a good arc. It's not necessarily like always enjoyable to watch because it's very self destructive. But like, I think we're so in. In this day and age of a lack of media literacy, we have to have something that's extreme in order to be like, yes, there was change and there was improvement. And often, like you said, we don't see deconstruction of a character as an arc. But it is an arc. An arc. It is that you did. You started here and you ended up in a different place or you ended up in the same place, but you still. There still was an arc. You may have circled back around. [01:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:08] Speaker A: But you went somewhere and then came to a conclusion. You know, sure. There are so many characters who look very, very different from how they started out and have no arc whatsoever. [01:19:19] Speaker B: 100%. Anyway, all this to say that. I'm sure we're going to answer this question at the end of the series, but if I were to pick up characters arc that I think is the most unique and the most interesting, I would definitely pick Wesley at the end of the day, especially from this show. I think on Buffy that's like a different. If you, if you take the whole Buffyverse into account, like, he would still be pretty up there. [01:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:45] Speaker B: Along with like Willow, I would say, and like Buffy and Faith and all those people. But I think for this show, Wesley's arc is just. It's just so unique. And I really like that. [01:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I had, I wrote down the lines from Wesley and Lila's interaction in Home where we had that moment where Lila says to him, die hard your way up here. Come on, Wes, who knows you better than me? And he says, perhaps you don't know me as well as you think. And then he goes back to the files and I. The sad thing is that this is the last time he has all his memories. So the irony that Lila probably Did know him better than anyone else, even Fred. Because she was aware of, like, everything. All his flaws. She knew what he was gonna do. And. Yeah, it's just. It was very interesting. So back in Angel's office, he's standing in front of window looking out the city in the sunlight. And Connor's like, wait, I thought sunlight burned you up. And Angel's like. Like special glass. Connor's like, you should make a whole suit out of it. Like the Pope has. Angel asks about his dad, and Connor's like, well, he's fine, but, you know, he's pretty pissed. And he kind of, like, teases him, and he's like, I'm. I'm just kidding. You gotta lighten up. He thinks we spent the whole night doing tests. I told him I could bench press, like, a thousand pounds. Angel says, what are you going to tell them about who you are? And Connor says, the truth, more or less. I'll tell them that I'm different. I'll tell them it's actually a good thing. I'll tell them to stop worrying so much. The subliminal messaging is so good because it's almost like Connor talking about how angel was telling Connor the truth and saying that, hey, I'm different, you're different, it's actually a good thing. And angel says, their parents. And Connor says, yeah, I know they'll feel a lot better knowing you're looking out for me. Angel says, we still haven't found Veil, but we will. Connor says, I'm not too worried about him. Nothing he can show me I haven't already seen. And Angel's, like, not sure how to take that. Connor says, anyway, I just wanted to say goodbye. I gotta get back to my life now. Angel's like, oh, like, you don't have to leave. I mean, right now. And Connor's like, I kind of think I should. I need to take care of my parents. This isn't their world. They really don't feel safe here. And then he says, you gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father. [01:22:02] Speaker B: And he looks right at him. And I was like. [01:22:05] Speaker A: I literally started crying right here. I was like, yeah. Like, it's just so beautiful in the fact that, like, he learned that lesson from angel not just in this episode, but in, like, previous ones. But also the fact that I think coming face to face with Sajan probably was also helpful for Connor in seeing that, oh, this was a prophecy. This guy also tried really hard, and it was not always in Angel's hands, like, angel did. [01:22:34] Speaker B: Angel didn't just let Holtz take me. Yes, because that was kind of the last thing he said to Angel. Like, you let him take me? [01:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah. But then Connor had his family threatened by Vale and kind of Sajan indirectly. And so he made a similar choice to go after him and risk his own life and fight and protect his family. And he realized why angel went to such great lengths to protect him. And so I think there's just that deeper understanding right there. And now he has all the great memories to offset all of that stuff. And yeah, it's just. Oh, it was so, so satisfying. And then this moment, like, he turns and leaves and you have the Connor theme. Like this music that played when angel was mourning Connor's loss and staring at the charred empty crib playing right here. And it's like slow motion. I'm pretty sure this theme also played in Home as well. And. And then, you know, I just remember like that moment with them in. In Home where Connor is got the bomb strapped to him and Cordelia. And he says, I didn't feel anything. I can't feel anything. I guess I really am your son because I'm dead too. And Angel's like, you're not dead. Connor says, no, you just weren't there before. And then Connor says, don't say you're sorry. Doesn't fix anything. And then angel says, let me say I this. I love you, son. And Connor says, it's a lie. Angel says, it's not. Connor says, it's always a lie. My dead mother. Mother couldn't even love me. Angel says, you're wrong. She did. And then Connor's like, no, she knew she couldn't. Angel's like, she sacrificed herself because she loved you. Connor didn't understand what sacrificing yourself for someone meant. And now he understands it because he has people he wants to sacrifice himself for. Like, he understands what love is in a healthy way. And so he's able to like, rewire himself. And it's just. Ugh. [01:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And it reminds me of. I remember when we covered home, you read this thing by. I think it was critically touched or somebody else probably. But they were talking about how angel erasing Connor's memories and giving him new ones is just perpetuating Connor's self destructive ways of like, trying to believe a lie, of trying to, you know, feel anything. And how his entire arc in season three and four is basically just like, like chasing one lie after the other. Whether it's like Holt or Cordelia or Jasmine or All of these things. And I think they were saying that, you know, at the end of the day, those false memories are just doing the same exact thing. And Connor still isn't who he is. And I think I disagreed with that back then. And obviously we couldn't talk about it because that would have been a spoiler. But I was thinking of this specific scene and how Connor now has both sets of memories and he's still himself. Like, he has chosen to go back to his life that's quote, unquote, fabricated because he's lived it. Like. Like, we were talking about this episode a lot. The fact that, like, are your memories, the things that make you who you are, but it's also your choices. And, like, Connor does both things. Like, he's got both memories and he's making a choice. So that means that it's not a lie because it is his life, you know, And I think that's why I disagreed with their assessment of that. And that's why I always, you know, support what angel ends up doing. Because if he hadn't taken the deal in home, none of this would have happened, you know? [01:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah. But I. I think that there needs to be, like. Like, we got to remember, too, that, like, Connor gets both those memories back too. Like, there's a possibility, like, he couldn't be saved by a lie. He had. Eventually, he had to have the truth revealed as well. Well, so now he has. Obviously, having the fake memories and stuff has helped him readjust, but. And it helps him cope once he has the other ones there as well. But he needed to also have his memories restored. So, like, I agree with you. Like, I think angel did make the right choice, even. Even though it was a very tough cost. And I don't think he needed to erase everybody else's memories, but whatever. [01:26:45] Speaker B: We. [01:26:45] Speaker A: We don't know, like, again, what the terms were. But I think there needed to be this understanding on Angel's part that, like, he had to eventually. They want, at some point, give Connor back his memories because Connor has to make his own choice. And, like, they talked about that. Right? Like Sajan says, your son has to grow up someday. Like, he has to let Connor grow up and make his choices. [01:27:05] Speaker B: Right. [01:27:05] Speaker A: And. Yeah, which is why Connor says, like, you can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all. Like, thinking, there's just no hope for me. And it's like, that's why you have to return the memories. [01:27:18] Speaker B: But, yeah. [01:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, it's so good. It's like you have that moment, angel watches Connor walk out of his office. It's like slow motion. And Connor goes to the elevator, and Angel's, like, staring at him like, what? And then as the elevator opens, he just gives one last glance at angel. Kind of like, yeah, I know. And then, oh, it ends. Oh, I'm just, like, so happy for angel, and I'm so happy for Connor, and I just. It's just such a good episode. [01:27:43] Speaker B: It is such a good episode. [01:27:46] Speaker A: So satisfying, but. All right, guys, let us know your thoughts. What do you guys think about, like, the Cube only giving memories to people in the vicinity? Do you guys think that Lauren and Gun ever get their memories back? What do you guys think about Fred's memories being restored to Illyria, at least from the ones from before her memory was wiped out and, like, altered? Do you guys think that they. I mean, I think they're. I think it's pretty much stated that they're intact. And do you think that's part of what helps influence the events of the next episode? And, like, that would have been, like, what they were going to use for season six. Does any of this change how you guys view Angel's actions in season four? What do you guys think about Wesley's arc and everything that's going on with the deconstruction of that and his. His inability to apologize and kind of his inability to face reality and falling further and further into fantasy? Just a lot of stu. Stuff going on here. Yeah, it's really fun. A lot of theorizing, too. So I'd be very curious to hear your guys's thoughts and what you guys think about this episode and all those little different things and stuff. So, as always, thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast, and you can email [email protected].

S5. Ep18. Origin

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

Other Episodes

S3. Ep15. Loyalty

S4. Ep6. Spin the Bottle

S2. Ep16. Epiphany