Show Notes
These are tough times in LA. As Angel urges Wesley to get rid of Illyria, she suffers a potentially cataclysmic physical breakdown and transports him back in time.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode 19, time bomb, written by Ben Edlund, directed by Vern Gillum, and aired April 28, 2004. So we were just talking about this, but we actually recorded the next episode, the girl in question, before we recorded this one due to having a guest and all that and scheduling, but. But we were talking about how there's such a tonal difference in the two of them, but also angel as a character acts so differently, and it actually makes the next episode even more jarring because it's just bizarre. And I don't want to give spoilers. I know we're, like, so close to the end. Obviously, there's an intention to all of it. But, like, I'm curious for when we record the episode after, is it not fade away? I think after the girl in question. Power play. Oh, power play. Yeah, we do power play. Like, how it's gonna feel to snap back into that. Like, it's just gonna be very interesting. And, yeah, it makes me, like, even more. Like, I know they were kind of forced to put the girl in question where. Where it's at because of the series ending, but it just. It was poorly. Poorly placed, man.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I was literally. I was thinking that, too, and then I said it, too, and you were like, I was thinking that, too.
Yeah. I mean, I still. Like, overall, I still find the episode, the girl in question, fun, but it's. Yeah, it's just so weirdly placed, and I feel like this episode is a little weirdly placed also. I agree, but at the same time, I feel like there's a lot of stuff that happens that's, like, really important.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah, they did a good job, I will say, of tying up Illyria's stuff, and, I mean, obviously she's not done, but, like, her. Her powers, like, depowering her and kind of, like, giving her a little bit more of an arc that can be completed this season and also tying it into Gun and Wes and angel and really, like, moving things forward for the next couple of episodes. So I really think, like, that was very, very clever, and it's a really entertaining episode to watch. The special effects is really, really fun. The time jumping is something that the Buffyverse hasn't really done, which is, again, very fascinating.
The effects, the stunts, the shock value. Is really interesting. It's just very exposition heavy, and I found myself just kind of, like, zoning out. Yeah, me too. Because a lot of it's very repetitive. Like, Illyria's talking about stuff, and you're just like, I get it already.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: But also, she speaks in, like, riddles.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: And I was like, yeah, it took me a minute to decide.
Yeah.
But it's also, like, they did a very good job with tying together Angel's plan in the future with what Illyria is going through in this episode, and she kind of gives him the biggest hint for his plan moving forward.
So, yeah, again, all, like, very interesting, and it's. But it's hard to, like, talk about when I can't, like, tell everything that's talking about it. Yeah, fully. So, yeah. All right, so time bomb, obviously, majorly focusing on Illyria, but I think it kind of, like, with everything with the apocalypse, the senior partners, Wesley's not doing so hot. And honestly, neither is Angel. Like, there's almost this sense of, like, impending doom. So time bomb refers to not just her, but also, like, the end of the series, each of the characters seems to be reaching the end of their rope.
This episode is also kind of a commentary on what too much power does to someone or to someone who has someone who is human or has a lot of humanity, what too much power does to them. This episode's dealing with the gang reeling from the fallout of too much power, which is corruption, essentially. And it kind of goes back to the overall season theme of the gang kind of falling into old habits, but then blowing up in way worse ways this season because they have more power now. So Gun selling his soul is not anything new because he sold his soul for a fancy brain or fancy truck back in, what was it, season two or three? Or season three.
And obviously, that hurt. That hurt and affected everyone around him. But now he sold his soul for a fancy brain implant. And then Wesley betrays and lies to angel in this episode and the last one, as well as Illyria. That backfires on him with the memories being returned and causes Illyria to mistrust him enough that she actually kills him in the team in this episode. But we saw him betray angel back in season three as well. Like, we're seeing the gang, their old patterns are coming up, but there's much bigger ripple effects in this season because they have more power.
And so it's like a statement on the fact that corruption creeps up on you and no one is really immune to it.
And I think one of the biggest things That I found really interesting with this episode is angel seems to kind of be regressing back to his season two self, like when he fired all of his friends so he can take down Wolfram and Hart. And then he talks with Holland Manners in the elevator and becomes so depressed by the fact that hell's on earth. And then, you know, all of that stuff happened with Reprise. And now he's clearly wanting to take Wolfram and Hart down again, but he's kind of going about it in a very similar way by distancing himself from his friends. So I think there's an intentional mirroring of patterns from past seasons for them to kind of have the reveal that they do later on. And obviously, that'll be something we'll discuss then. But I thought that was kind of interesting.
And it makes a lot of sense for the show's theme of kind of this, like, cycle of falling into corruption, having to deal with the repercussions and the consequences, clawing your way out, developing community again, healing, but then falling into corruption. And it just keeps going over and over again.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: That's basically angel the series.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Literally, angel the series.
Yeah. Which makes sense because it's part of the premise of the show, which is, you know, if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do and seeking redemption and stuff.
But, man, does it get repetitive. Sometimes.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a bummer sometimes.
Yeah, it's bleak. This show is very bleak. And I think Jim talks about this a lot, and he says that he views this show as, like, a tragedy. And that's why he.
I guess, like, recontextualizing it in his brain as a tragedy makes it less painful to watch sometimes.
Because I feel like rewatching this show right now has been, like, really.
I guess it's been a. It's been a tough experience. I will talk about it when we, like, wrap up the series, but it's been hard to, like, rewatch the show and talk about it in depth because it really is just very depressing as a whole. But if you look at it as this whole thing is just a big tragedy, it does make sense. That's the only way that makes sense. So, Jim, I subscribe to your worldviews about angel the series, and it makes it a little bit better. But at the same time, I'm just like, God damn, this is depressing.
And it makes sense because angel is a vampire destined to, like, live forever and repeat the same pattern over and over again. Buffy has Buffy ended on a much more hopeful note, because it's about a show about, like, growing up and becoming who you are.
So it just makes sense that that's how, like, that show would end versus where we are with this show.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: No spoilers to the end.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: I know. But, yeah, we'll definitely get there in a couple of episodes, we'll talk about it.
Yeah, yeah, I. And like, I said, like, again, the episode has a lot of exposition. It's fun to watch, a lot of action. But I think this episode's mainly, like, really important because it depowers Illyria enough so she can be dependent on Angel Investigations and also not powerful enough to wipe out the enemy. When it comes to the big battle, like, they had. It was key for them to do that, because if you have this big battle that we're. We're, you know, coming up on Illyrio, just being able to wipe out everybody, like, that doesn't make sense.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: That would have made sense.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that would have been wonderful.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: But.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, no, but it also, like I talked about, Illyria gives Angel the idea that he's going to need for the finale. Illyria's view on power gives angel insight into Wolfram and Heart and a clue for how to move forward. And we'll talk about that more as we go on. But, yeah, a lot of things happening. I did appreciate how it really focused on the characters. Like, Gun had a lot to do in this episode. I've really appreciated what they've been doing with him the last couple of episodes, which has just been. I've sorely missed it.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I really liked all the stuff they did with. With Gunda this episode. And it's also made me kind of rethink his arc and just. I just feel like he's the character that has, like, the most integrity at this point. Like, they've maintained the integrity of the character, even though he also did some sketchy stuff. Like, he also went to, like, a dark place.
And I like that. I like that Gun right now is the one that's, like, he's having, like, a crisis that makes sense for his character and how we've, like, known him before and his commitment to, like, the mission and, like, doing the right thing. And Wesley's so far from that. Angel seems so far from that.
And it's nice to see that, like, somebody in the team is still, like, asking the right questions of, like, you know, like, when he says she is the big battle, like, about the pregnant woman, like, that was just such a Gun thing to say.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Gun has always cared very, very Deeply. And I've always appreciated that about him and how he cares for the individual person.
Being a street kid and I think fighting for the lives of those kids against vampires on a daily basis, he. And then being part of, like, Anne and her group of kids and stuff, I feel like there's always been a very.
There's, like, a lot of groundedness to Gun that I really appreciated and resonated with, so.
All right, well, speaking of Gun, we start off in the basin basement of that house. Gun is being tortured, and then all of a sudden, the door just, like, blows in, and it's Illyria. She just backhands the demon that's torturing Gun, walks up to him, rips the magic medallion from his neck. Gun, like, sits up and kind of, like, remembers everything for a minute. He looks at Illyria and calls her Fred. And then he's like, hang on, you're not Fred. And then he's like, oh, it's Illyria. And then he says, I can't leave this dimension unless someone else puts on the necklace and takes my place.
So then we find out that she ends up putting the necklace on the demon, and the demon ends up destroying itself as they leave. I was like, who? What done this? Like, okay, could have done this episode.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: That demon gave angel and Spike, like, a whooping of their life. They wouldn't have been able to overpower him. It had to. It had to.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: I guess. I guess we'll go with that.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll go with that.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Jay Sherman compares the scene in which Illyria descends into Hell to rescue Gun as a riff on the Orpheus theme. So, like, little reminder, when we talked about Orpheus in the episode Orpheus, we were talking about how the journey of Orpheus going to hell to retrieve his wife, Iridisi.
He ends up. He was told, like, oh, you can't turn around at all, or else you're going to lose your wife. And he accidentally ends up doing so, and then his wife ends up getting taken back into the underworld. The whole point of the episode, Orpheus, was Faith's visit was to basically, she had to rescue angel, but it was more about Faith bringing back something that she considers positive and bringing back meaning. And Angel. Like, both her and angel help each other in the reminder that they need to fight for the good fight and that they are never done in their redemption journey.
And, like, the. The guy Jay Sherman says Faith's iridescent is in her ability to fight. Faith's Irridice is her escape from. From life. Basically, she doesn't want to have to keep fighting because fighting is hard. And then Angels rebuttal. This is from all things philosophical. Angels rebuttal, in essence, is that disappearing into that good night does not equal redemption. One doesn't make the situation better by fading back into the underworld of prison or death. One pays for and is redeemed by one's willingness to continue fighting. So Gun has to go up and keep fighting. He can't stay in this hell, this basement, forgetting everything. And we have Illyria, who loses something in this episode. Episode. And we're gonna see if she can find meaning in the later few episodes and develop a new sense of conviction, which is, again, they've managed to do so much with Illyria in, like, the past, what has it been, three episodes or something? And I'm like, this is crazy. The amount of, like, character development and ability to just combine Illyria's arc with the themes of this season, what everybody else is doing. And I'm like, why couldn't we have done that with Fred? Like, there was just, like, not much with Fred for seasons, and now all of a sudden, it's like, wow, this is so rich. But guess that's why you kill the character and resurrect a new one. Right.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: I think it's just Illyria is just such a greater than life character, and there's so much you could do with her that's, like, supernatural. Her world is a lot bigger than Fred's. So you can explore more things with Illyria than you would with Fred.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: I think you could talk about power, which you really could not do with Fred.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, especially in this specific season.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: I think Illyria's Illyria as a character makes sense.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Because of how big she is, her.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Insights into someone who is a king or a God or all that, and how she's able to kind of give Angel a little bit of insight into Wolfram and Har, I felt like, was one of the more fascinating aspect aspects of this episode, for sure.
So cutting to Angel's office, Wesley's explaining the situation to angel, and he's like, hey, I didn't send her in. We were just talking about Gun. I explained a situation. She's, like, nodding as she create a portal, and then she just disappears.
And I was like, if all they needed was an exchange. That's the thing. They're sitting there like, well, I guess we can't get Gun. Like, we got to figure this out. I was like, bring Pavane. Drag Pavane in there and swap him out with gun. Like, I don't understand why this is such.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: True. Or like, they could find some rat in Wolfram and Hart and tie down there.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Like, you could be an animal. Right. Could you actually take an animal? Oh, you were. You were saying a metaphorical rat.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Not an actual rat. I was like, hey, that might.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: That's true. What did the rat do?
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Rats are only for angel to eat. I'm talking about an employee at Wolfram and Hart.
A little rat employee.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah. You could find somebody that is skeevy in Wolfram and Hart down there. Like, come on.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Yeah. If they still had Knox, they could have sent him down there.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: That would have actually been really poetic. Put Knox down there. Absolutely. Now think about what you've done.
Yeah, but I was like, come on, guys. We clearly did not think this through very much. But anyway, Angel's irritated.
He's like, okay, yeah, man. Yeah. He's like, she's just your little help. Helper. He's like, wes, why is she doing all this for you? And Wesley's like, does it matter? She may be able to get him out. Wesley, can I just say, looks horrible. Horrible this episode.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Rough. He looks like when Wesley took Angel's baby, gave him to his enemy. Rough.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
I also, like. You and I talked about it in the last episode, how we were like, are Wesley and Angel gonna talk about all the memories being restored? And they don't talk about it in this episode.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, because we recorded the girl in question, too, and they didn't talk about it in that episode either.
Would they just never talk about it?
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Everybody talks crazy.
Everybody talks about how Xander never apologizes and Xander never gets his comeuppance, which I agree with. But Wesley's another character that I'm over here. Like, Wesley never apologizes. Wesley never.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Even in this episode, he acknowledges that he has to apologize. And then he's just.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: I don't think I can do it.
Yeah, I know. I was like, no, you definitely should.
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Anyway, whatever.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: They're men, Sarah. They can't talk about their feelings.
I just can't apologize because, like, what does that even mean? And also, it doesn't matter. Like, they're just gonna nod at each other and everything will be fine.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: But you know who can apologize? Like, they have Lauren apologize. Like, it's all of the, like, queer Coded or more femme men that they have apologizing. It's like these super uber masculine men can't. But again, I choose to look at it as Wesley's a tragic character. And he has a tragic fall flaw and him that I choose to believe that the writers in the show are self aware enough and knowing that Wesley's not apologizing and that they don't see that as a good thing.
Maybe.
I don't know.
I like to believe that.
To toss up, honestly.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: So Angel's concerned about the risk that Illyria has saying she's really powerful. He's also concerned about the fact that she and Wesley seem to be pretty close. And I think he's a little bit concerned about the amount of power that Wesley might wield, which I think is a callback to origin because Wesley used Illyria to get the orb or the little box thing.
We get a little recap about how Larry was the ruler of the world.
Wesley says he's making progress. There's distance. She would never accept any of us as peers. But I afford her some amusement, the very least.
And then I still talk. Yeah, you're gonna give Spike to Illyria for some amusement.
And then angel says she's still here because this place reeks of influence. She had everything, west. Everything. You think she's not looking to get that back? And he's not wrong.
Then Wesley's like, I wouldn't presume to know what she wants, but I understand the resource, the power that she represents. He's like, maybe we could convince her to be like, on our team. Just in the portal opens, Illyria drags gun through and then just puts him at the floor. And then she says this thing, then ends up picking gun up and holding him by his throat, choking him. And then Angel's like, let him go. And she's like, well, it's important to you. Like, low key, threatening them. Wesley says, illyria, stop. And she says, it holds value, worth beyond price.
And then Wesley kind of like is trying to mitigate the situation. Is like, yes, great. Worth a great debt. What do we owe you? And then she says of, like, of what you owe me. And then just like walks out basically. Like, you'll. You'll owe me at some point.
Angel's like, woo. Go team. Yeah. Our good deed for the day. So then we have the credits.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Talks in riddles. Sometimes I'm like, what is. What are you saying? What does that mean?
[00:19:56] Speaker A: She's above us. Leia. She's a God king.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: She speaks in her own. Her own language. Her own.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: I don't know. Yeah. Half this episode was me, like, rewinding and being like, okay, yeah.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: What do these sentences even mean? Am I like, okay?
[00:20:16] Speaker A: No, I was like, I'm too tired. It's too, like, far into this, the season.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah, like, we're too close to the end.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Have episodes that are. Take this much work to decipher. Like, I should be understanding. But again, I think part of the reason why they did put it in so many riddles is because they don't want you to know Angel's plan until the very end.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true, but I have to.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Talk about it until we get there, guys.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: So then now Gun's coming back. It seems like the next day he's recovered a little bit. He's still wearing. Or now he's wearing a hooded zip up sweatshirt, looking much more like his old street self. Goes back to his office. There's a huge, enormous stack of files on his desk. And he's immediately like, all right, well, I'm just gonna avoid all work and go to Wesley's office.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: And.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: And in Wesley's office, he's just buried in paperwork.
But instead of having neat stacks, like in Gun's office, it's just chaotic. And he looks exhausted, unshaven and generally unkept. And he's talking to a book about learning about the Demon Age and mention of the Old Ones, still trying to figure out stuff about Illyria. And Gun walks in and Wesley, again, just like, doesn't quite make eye contact. He's frazzled and everything.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Hey, remember when Gunn and Wesley used to, like, hang out and crack jokes and like, for like, they had a handshake and they were like best friends. Do you remember that?
[00:21:37] Speaker A: I really, really missed that. I really.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: They were so cute.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: It was too short. Honestly was not long enough. So then Wesley's like, I stabbed you. I should apologize for that. But I'm honestly not sure how. I think it'll just be awkward.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: And I'm like, you just say, I'm sorry.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I feel like this is awkward too. Like, come on, seriously.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: It's like they're. He's like saying sorry, but he's not actually saying sorry, but it's like, that's the whole thing. I think the Buffy verse does this often where they're just like, oh, my God, this thing that I did is just too terrible to even say I'm sorry. And it's like. But like, you could.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Angel had no problem saying I'm sorry to Holtz. And Holtz even says, I keep going back to this. I use this. I use this. When we talked about lies my parents told me and like everything with wood and Spike.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: And I was like, spike not. Yeah, Spike saying that he can't say sorry to Buffy.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Or like, willow not apologizing.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: Even Holtz and Angel, both of them recognize that sorry's not good enough. But Holtz was like, it does help. It is, like, nice to hear, like, whatever. Oh, my gosh.
So then Gun's like, well, I'm not looking for sorry. Don't know if I accept it. Besides, I just got my heart cut out of my chest every day for two weeks straight. Compared to what? A little jab in the gut? Kind of over it. Then we're past that. So then he's like, I'm looking, you know, for a compass. The thing that killed my friend just saved my life. No one knows why. He's like, this place just went Poseidon on my ass. I don't know which way is up.
Wesley is also discombobulated. He's like, we just, you know, have to adjust. I imagine that's what all this is. Adjustment. Like, still, like, running back and forth from, like, his papers and his books and his desk. And he's like, I gotta adjust myself to this place, to Illyria.
And then Wesley says, you can't look at her without seeing. And then he, like, stops. And then swallows. Is like her body's previous owner. And then he's like, but then what comes out of her mouth? Pure, unadulterated vertigo. We look so tiny to her. He says he does not have Illyria on a leash. That she's monumentally self possessed. She still thinks she's the God king of the universe.
And then we jump to the training room. Olyria is just, like, walloping Spike, punches him in the chest, sends him across the room. He slides across the floor. He's like, all right, Grandma. Give you that. Good one. He charges at her. She kicks and punches him, but misses. This time, Spike catches her fist, punches her in the face.
And then she's like, well, this shell, you had affection for it.
And she's like, you strike her form without sentiment. Spike's like, I know you're not her. I can smell it. And then he ends up kicking her again. And she says, you're adapting. And he says, we do that. And she says, adaptation is compromise. And he says, it's called learning. But then I guess you know everything there is to know. Which all of that entire statement of adaptation is compromised. Is pretty much a sum up of where Illyria is at. She's refusing to adapt to her life as a human. She feels she has no need to do so, because she is a God King and she's thinking, oh, I can get my power back, but I need to do it in a different way. Obviously, all of that is still taken away by the end of this episode, which is endlessly interesting. Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Ties in nicely with what angel tells her at the end of the episode. About being who you are now.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: And not what you were.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Which goes for all of them, really.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: And that's what Wesley's talking about in the previous scene, where he's, like, you know, adapting. Like, we're all adjusting. Like, we all need to adjust to the fact that that's no longer Fred Gunn needs to adjust to the fact that he has this chip in his brain, but it has irrevocably affected other people and changed himself. And it did, in fact, change him in the past in changing his morals and compromising and stuff.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: And then angel, at the end of the episode, adapting to corporate life or so.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Or so we think.
Yep.
I'm just gonna, like, say it now.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Like, yeah, whatever.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: No shocker to anyone.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Supposedly.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah, supposedly.
So Illyria says that humans are nothing. Their kind has pulled this domain apart, even though the mightiest hordes are poppers. And then Spikes, like, the one who dies with the most toys wins. She says to never die and to conquer all that is winning. So then he charges at her again. But then she waves her hand. Time slows down. He's soaring through the air, like, really slowly. But then when he reaches the floor and is back to normal time, she's just gone. She's like, she's left.
Or, like, she's not left. She's, like, behind him. He's like, now that's cheating. She kicks him hard in the stomach, sends him into the wall. And then angel over the intercom, says he wants to talk to him. Hilarious. Like, you may go. Spike's like, okay, great. Thanks so much.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: I love how gently angel calls Spike over, too. He's just like, spike, can I just talk to you for a minute?
[00:26:32] Speaker A: He sees Spike literally being, like, punched and kicked and, like, blood coming out of his nose. And he's like, hey, Spike, just for.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: A minute there, angel was the nicest to Spike, like, versus everyone else. We're going to talk about everyone.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: You're going to talk about that? Because the way he treated Lauren, I mean, it's not new, but I'm just like, lauren, it's time to leave.
For the love of yourself. You really need to go find somewhere healthier.
Like, and we're Going to talk about, like that. Fine. People always talk about. Oh, that final episode. Out of character.
No, no, it's. It's been happening for a while here.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: For seasons.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Poor Lauren. Biggest victim of this show.
Okay, so then now we're in the observation room, looking into the training room. Spike comes in and is like, all right, well, I think I've kind of figured out some stuff. He's like, you know, some taekwondo, Brazilian ninjutsu. And then Angel's like, you have to stop these sessions. He's like, we're not testing her. She's testing us. And then all of a sudden, Illyria comes out of the training room into the observation area. She's doubling over in pain, clutching her stomach. Spike's like, woohoo. I got her a little winded, didn't I? But Illyria looks really not okay. So then we cut to Gun's office, and he's still going through his stuff. And then Lauren comes in and is like, hey.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: So wearing glasses and a hat.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Yeah, he's looking like Cordelia from season one. Anytime someone has to, like, shadow someone else, they wear, like, a wig or they wear a hat and sunglasses and a trench.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: She's hungover, Sarah.
No, I think he's been drinking.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: Poor Lauren.
You know what? As he reaches few pleasures in life. And we're gonna give him grace is what we're gonna do. Yeah, yeah. So he's an incognito. He's about to go on assignment. Angel wants him to start tailing Illyria. I was like, is this really the best use of Lauren's abilities? Like, at this point, it's like the show is trying to shoehorn Lauren into anything they can so that he's still involved in the episode. They've never really known what to do.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: With him fully ever since they took away his club.
[00:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
All right. So Lauren's like, I'm about to go on an assignment. He holds up his little walkie talkie, and then he's like, you know, strange times, huh? And then Gun's like, yeah, have you talked to Wesley? And Lauren's like, yeah, we've exchanged words, but I wouldn't exactly call it talking. He's still reeling since Our lady of the Blue Bummer arrived.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: So funny.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: And God's like, yeah, I was in his office. And Lauren's like, oh, God, don't go in there. That's where he keeps his full strength. Crazy.
And Gun's like, oh, yeah, I learned my lesson. Lauren's like, it's like he's Two different people. One is almost catatonic, the guy you see doing the impatient shuffle around the hallways. And the other is just cooped up in there all day, jittering like a bug on a hot plate, obsessing over every single tidbit he can find on Illyria. And I'm just like, do these. Well, surely Wolfram and Hart has to.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Have, like, a therapist rubbing her head right now.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: I'm just like, the way these people interact with each other is not realistic. Like, it's like, everyone can see that Wesley's not doing well. They've got to have a therapist somewhere on Wolfram and Hart, like, but they don't.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: I think the whole thing is, like, everybody has their own to worry about, that they don't really see everybody else drowning at the same time.
But I feel like they've also always been like this.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah, this is nothing new.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: This is not new. God, can we get some here?
Yeah, well, no.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no. Well, all right.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: That's not the show that we're watching.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: It's not. Maybe that's why I'm irritated. Then Gun's like, well, what does angel say about it? Lauren's like, well, he's not very talkative these days. And then we hear, is he ever. This is Angel. Can you hear me? And I was like, jesus, he's so mean. Why didn't. Why didn't he do that with me? Spike? He's like, spike, can I talk to.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Can you come up here whenever you're.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Available, whenever you're free. Like, don't rush. It's on nobody at your leisure. What are you doing? What are you at? You have another job. Let's go. Like.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: I'm like, jeez, he's so mean.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: He's so mean to Lauren. And Lauren's like, 10, four, kid, buddy. Angel's like, lauren, we're gonna meet in my office now. Lauren's like, okay, copy that. So then we're in the conference room now. Angel's there, Wesley's there. Lauren, gun. And then Spike's like, pacing. And then Spike's like, all right, so you don't, like, babe, the blue ox in your house? You want to get rid of her? He's like, so we talking pasture slaughterhouse? And Angel's like, well, she didn't have a problem killing Fred, did she? And Wesley's like, okay, well, she infected Fred with no more malice than a virile. Phage. And Angel's like, okay, sensing that Wesley has some affection for her. And Wesley's like, no, Like, I don't. Like, I have no problem killing her.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: He feels like, this is weird, you.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Know, after the previous episode. I understand a little bit. But also, like, if you don't trust these people that you work with, like, fire them, you know? So Wesley's like, I have no problem with finding ways to kill her angels. Like, good, because we've got more than enough problems to worry about. Like, he's so flipping harsh. So, like, can he not see that this man is, like, dangling on the last thread of his sanity?
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Like, well, remember the last episode, how he spoke to him? He was like, get over it, Wesley.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: It is Fred's death.
This is the same man who had to pick his draws up and go to a monastery for three months after the love of his life died.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah. This is the same man that draws pictures every time an old crush comes back into town. Like, yeah, you're not one to talk angel at all.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Literally.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: So then Gun's like, all right, so what about this apocalypse? Like, Lindsay says, we're in the middle of it. And then Angel's like, evil just hasn't told anyone about it yet, which is probably why they're winning. And Spike's like, yeah, by the way, we're on the wrong side. Or the right side, if you like winning. And then guns. Like, well, sounds like you guys are buying it, because Gun wasn't here for a lot of this conversation. So he's just hearing this for the first time. Angel's like, well, next time you go out there, take a good look around, because it's true, Gun. I'm like, okay. Oh, poor man. How dare he?
God forbid he question anything that's going on around here.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: God's like, fine.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Fine. Works for me. So what's that mean for us? God's like, I didn't come here to fight. I just asking some clarifying questions here. Angel's like, all right, well, tell us how we fight an invisible war. I don't even know who we're fighting. All the evil we've stopped so far, and we're still the partner's number one earning.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: You gotta fight that attitude. That's what you have to fight, Angel.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Jesus. Yes. Forget about the big blue bummer. We got the big vamp bummer around here.
Then Hamilton walks in. He's like, not anymore. Let me ask you something, Angel. Have you ever heard the term surgical strike? He tells them that Illyria destroyed a bunch of the torture units in that little neighborhood and two troop carriers, an ice cream truck, and eight beautifully maintained lawns And Angel's like, bill me? And he's like, oh, we will. The damages are coming directly out of this division's profits. Congratulations. In one swift stroke, you've gone from leader of the pack to staggering at the rear. And Angel's like, I just. Just don't care. And then Hamilton's like, well, because, like, Angel's hinting at the fact that, like, oh, we're, you know, we're actually wanting to work on that big war and all that stuff. And Hamilton's like, hey, let me remind you that this is a business, and you cannot fight the good fight unless you are actually doing the business. Like the whole profits thing.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: Sure, Jan. Sure, Jan.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: It's a business, boy. It's not a Batcave. Which. This word is used strategically in this episode multiple times. The word business.
He and the senior partners know that Angel's stuck in that dilemma of wanting to do good and thinking they can do the most good by being in Wolfram and Hart. But in order to do the good, they have to compromise and basically fund the good by working with Wolfram and Hart. And so this all goes back to conviction, where Eve said, you can shut this place down, but then, well, you won't. Wouldn't have it anymore. If the place closes down, the connections dry up. Evil goes next door. This is the catch. I'm excited. Explaining the catch so you don't have to stand around wondering what it is. In order to keep this business running, you have to keep this business running. And that means keeping your clients, most of them anyway, happy. And that's what happens at the end of this episode.
So Hamilton leaves. Lauren's like, well, I still like him better than Eve. Here, Here.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: And then David Boreanas almost laughs.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: Does he really?
[00:34:58] Speaker B: His face. This man. This whole season has been trying to keep it together, fighting for his life in every scene to not laugh.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Well, when he has all of these cranky temper tantrum issues, he's got to find these chuckles somewhere.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: It's so un. David Boreanas. How Angel's acting right now.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: David Boreanas is going crazy. He's like, please, for the love of.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: God, this shit is ending soon. I might as well.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: He's like, my wife's here this week.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: Like, yes.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: Next week I get to just be crazy. Yeah.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: So then back in Wesley's office, he's just kind of, like, disassociating. Illyria comes in. She asks him what day it is. He's like, he's completely disassociating. He's like, not on this plane of existence anymore. Like, he's with Illyria somewhere. It's probably the Fred in his mind. He's like, I think it's Monday. I'm not sure. So depressing, this conversation. We've had it before. He's like, yeah, we've discussed our system of temporal measurements and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, you're my guide. And he's like, apparently.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: This is the part where I was like, am I stupid? Because what are they?
[00:36:06] Speaker A: I think they're implying.
[00:36:08] Speaker B: And I'm like, it's just. No, I. I mean, specifically, like, she's asking, like, what day of the week is it? And then he's responding to her, and I'm like, what the fuck are they talking about? And at that point. At this point, I was like, am I. Is something wrong with me?
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Like, why, no, you're just not vibing on the same frequency as Wesley anymore. Leia, he's. He's vibed out of this episode plane of existence.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: What did he call, like, the days of the week?
[00:36:32] Speaker A: It was, like, a technical term of temporal measurement. And our technology weights and measures local customs and word his world history. It's the way that we measure.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: Calendar.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah, he just said the days of the week. You mean Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, too. He starts sitting down and, like, giving her flashcards.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: Ms. Rachel.
[00:36:52] Speaker A: All right, Illyria, Here we go. Yeah. Literally turns on Ms. Rachel.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: You could put. Imagine if you put Ms. Rachel on for Illyria. How do you. Do you think. Do you think listeners that Ms. Rachel could hypnotize Illyria the same way that she hypnotizes babies?
[00:37:12] Speaker A: Yeah. You know what? Illyria has gone so full circle that she's probably come all the way back around, and, like, it's like a rebirth, you know?
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: So 100% Ms. Rachel.
I'm just vibing.
Vibing out of this. This episode's.
What is it? I'm trying to use Wesley language out of this episode's system of temporal measurements.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: What the does that even mean?
[00:37:42] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't think. I don't think the writers know either.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Hilarious. Like, you're more than that. And he's like, really? And she's like, you're my betrayer. And then she's like, when you shattered the Window of Orlon, you meant to change the past, to rewrite your history and the history of this body.
And he's like, well, I just brought back more painful memories. And she's like, well, it was A failure. And he's like, I've come to understand how irreversible the works of time are. She says, but you intended to alter them. He says, I wanted to bring back Fred. And I really like.
I like how Wesley is so brutally honest with Illyria in a way that she respects. And it's funny, because I think the reason he is so brutally honest with her is because he has nothing. Like, he doesn't care about his own life. He has nothing to lose. And so. And because he's also disassociated, so he's not actually, like, sitting there and thinking through his words and, like, how they're going to affect her. But I think that it helps Illyria understand him a little bit better.
Yeah.
So he says he wanted to bring back Fred. She's like, well, you wanted to destroy me. And he was like, an unavoidable consequence. Does it sting you by betrayal? And then she was like, betrayal was a neutral word in my day. As unjudged a word as water or breeze. No.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: And then she's catching feelings now.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: She says, or perhaps I am only bothered because I am bothered. Oh, I love that line. So good.
And Wesley's like, that sounds very close to human. She's like, moats.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: Mayflies who die so soon after they're born, they might as well have not had lived at all. Why now? Now? Manners. He pulls out a Steve Rogers language.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: He's like, the furthest thing from Steve Rogers ever.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: Gosh. Yeah. He literally is.
He's closer to a Tony Stark.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Not even, man. He's like.
I don't even know what the hell he is. Honestly. A demon.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: I don't know. Guys, help me figure out which MCU character Wesley would be like.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Like Bucky or whatever his name is.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Bucky has more morals.
Bucky will say, I'm sorry.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah, but this is. I'm talking after, like, when he's, like, possessed. Like, when he's, like, under the hydra mind control.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: Honestly, John Walker, I think, is more like Wesley.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: Who's John Walker?
[00:40:10] Speaker A: I knew. I knew you didn't know. I was waiting for that. Okay, so you remember in the. You said, okay, and I was like, she has no clue. You went all Wesley dead behind the eyes.
Do you remember the. Did you ever watch the Falcon and the Winter Soldier TV show?
[00:40:26] Speaker B: I didn't watch the TV show, no.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: Okay, so John Walker was introduced. He was. They gave him a super serum, and he was supposed to be the next Captain America Hide by the United, hired by the United States Army. But he's kind of.
I think he struggles with ptsd, but he also has massive anger issues. And at some point, because that episode was very rife with a lot of, like, the civil rights symbolism, because you have a black Captain America now. And so John Walker was supposed to be that all American white boy, but he ends up taking the shield and brutally murdering a man. I think it's a black man, actually, with the shield, like, publicly executing this person in the streets. It was probably the most gutsy thing the MCU has ever done.
Yeah.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: And that's. You're saying that's Wesley?
[00:41:11] Speaker A: Well, and then now he's in the new Thunderbolts movie. He's part of the Thunderbolts. And he has a very interesting. He's very anti hero, has a very interesting arc. He's very much an.
But you're not going to see him really apologizing. You're. You could tell, like, deep down he is a good person who's just very misguided and very much desires. Like that thing that he's, like, not gotten long and he, like, missed it, that longing. But he's very much arrogant, and I think Wesley's very arrogant.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. I'm picking up what you're putting down.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think it's an exact match, but I would say, like, the vibes are mostly there. Someone's gonna vehemently disagree with me. I'm gonna get very loud.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: Somebody's gonna send us an angry ass email right before we finish this goddamn podcast.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Dare you, like, confuse my favorite Buffyverse character, Wesley with the amazing character arc with John Walker?
All right, write me an email. Let's hear it.
[00:42:05] Speaker B: That's all you, Sarah.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: That is me. That is actually me. All right, says the person who doesn't know about John Walker. You're gonna be like, actually, I'm like, who is he?
[00:42:14] Speaker B: Who is she? I don't know her.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: Yeah, you should. I. I do recommend watching Thunderbolts, though. It's very good.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: I do want to, actually.
I will get around to it probably once it goes on streaming.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Because I have to watch horror movies in theater.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: I get it. It's okay.
All right, so in Angel's office, Gun comes in and says, hey, I got the file from Hamilton. I'm looking at it. It seems like some sort of ceremonial demon pact you have to sign as witness for the firm. And angel is like, you've met Hamilton before today. And Gun's like, yeah, he came down to my basement for a While offered to get me out. And Angel's like, what'd you say? And Gun's like, do you really have to ask me that? Angel's like, I really do.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Clearly he declined because he didn't come back.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: O' Leary had to go out because what were you gonna do when you could have just grabbed Pavane?
Come on.
Guns like, I closed him down or I turned him down. Not into making deals, not anymore. And Angel's like, well, that's gonna make it tough to be a lawyer.
Guns like, it was tough already. Making business go smoothly for a bunch of hideous, scaly, evil clients. And then Mrs. Boreanas comes into the room. Very pregnant blonde woman. Of course she's blonde. She says, excuse me, I'm here about the Demon pack.
So this is obviously Jamie Bergman. David Boreanas, his wife of the experience. David Boreana says, it was great to have her come onto the show and have our son look at that and see the two of us actually play opposite one another for a brief moment. He adds, we had fun with it. It was nothing too serious. It was just a small little role, a laugh.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: Damn.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: I'm sorry. You couldn't say more after, like, I don't know. Your freaking wife came on screen and it's like, I don't know.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: I mean, it is a small role.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: It's also very David Boreanis to be like, ah, I don't look in the past. I don't dwell in the past. It was whatever.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: No worries.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: His wife is very pretty, though.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: She is, yeah.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: And you didn't. You didn't think she was a good actress. I thought she was fine.
I thought.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: I don't know, it was just very like, she was. It. It to me, it's like they were holding a script off screen and she was just like reading off a teleprompter or something.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: She had just a lot of exposition. That's basically all she did. Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: I don't know. It wasn't like a memorable performance. It wasn't like a one off character where you meet them and you see them and you're like, oh, yeah, this is a great character. It was just kind of like, that's Dave Abrannis's wife.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:37] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: So angel and Gun sit at the conference table with the woman. She's like, very, very pregnant. She says that basically this demon, this demon cult, clan, whatever, found her. And they had a seer who said that her baby was some sort of holy one. They said it was a prophecy she says they've been really supportive. They make her special shakes and vitamins, and she's like, yeah, I know, they're demons. And they guns like, all right, well, we recommend that you enter into it with caution. And then all of a sudden, we hear a demon. Demon voice saying, well, she's not your client. We are. And then three demons come in, and we are like, oh, okay. So they're supposed to advocate for the demons, not for the pregnant lady.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: So now we are back at zero days.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah. This show having mystical pregnancies.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Shout out to Kat for that one. Yes.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Shout out to Cat for the meme.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: I feel like we need a white moored behind us as we're recording and be like, crossing up.
Zero days since a mystical pregnancy.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: We're back at zero, boy.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Zero days since some child was the promised one, the chosen one.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Like, honestly, this show. This slogan for this show is just like, fuck them kids and fuck you, too, because, oh, my God, they're all so special. And there's so many mystical pregnancies and prophecies. Meanwhile, it's like the demon, like the Antichrist, and they just use up these women's bodies to give birth to itself.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Also, of course, she's a blonde.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Day zero.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: It's like all of the. All of the cliches wrapped in one.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: All the tropes, literally.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: So then Wesley back in his office. He's still looking at books. And then Illyria comes in, and she's just like, time. And he's like, you don't look well. And then she says, your opinion of me weighs less than sunlight. Doubles over in pain, knocks over a glass of water. And then now she's in the training room. She and Wesley's holding some sort of weapon. And then Angel's saying, do it now. Wesley aims the weapon at Illyria. She doubles over in pain again. She's back in the observation room, except now she's at the. The scene that we saw at the beginning of this episode where Spike's talking about how he got her winded.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: And.
[00:46:57] Speaker A: And now Larry is going, oh, my gosh, something's wrong. So then she doubles over in pain again. Now she's back in Wesley's office. She's just knocked over the glass of water. And then she says, you tried to murder me. Kicks the desk, sending it towards the window, and it pins Wesley against it. And then Wesley's like, wait, no, I haven't, and I don't want you dead. Believe me. And Illyria's like, I was there. I saw it. And then she just, like, walks out. She's like, you wanted me dead. And then she just leaves. Leaves. She's like, fine, then.
And then in the lobby, we see Lauren hiding behind a plant. He's like, bluebird is in flight. Bluebird is in flight. And then Harmony's like, somebody gives us.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Race for having to do this. Stupid.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Didn't he have. Yeah. Doesn't he have other things that he was hired?
[00:47:39] Speaker B: Doesn't he have a department to run? What about his assistant?
[00:47:43] Speaker A: Why don't they have Spike following? Spike has nothing else to do. Like, it makes no sense.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: So true.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I literally don't know why.
[00:47:51] Speaker B: It's because Spike is the favorite child right now.
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Okay, it's probably Spike would not have the patience to do that, to be honest. He would just end up being too loud or knocking.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: He would get distracted with, like, a strip club or something.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: He'd see a blonde and be like, ooh.
He'd see the pregnant lady walk in, and he'd be like, oh, yeah, there it is.
So then Harmony is speaking to the demons. She's like, okay, angel just needs another few minutes. Can I get you guys something?
She's like, don't worry. Angel will take care of everything.
And then back in the conference room, Gun and Angel are talking. And Angel's like, you sure you want to do this? And Guns, like, yeah, it's not too late. Amanda, like, this contract has some wiggle room in. In there. Like, are you sure you want to, like, sign over your baby? And she's like, but aren't you the guys that are supposed to tell me to. To do that? And then we hear Lauren in the walkie talkie. Angel ears. This is secret demon. Come in.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: Angel ears.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: Angel ears.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: He's so cute.
[00:48:52] Speaker A: And then Amanda gives her whole plight, saying that, like, her husband, he was hurt at work, he has brain damage. They're scraping by, and they can't really afford to have a baby. But the brethren said that they can make her husband whole again. She starts crying. Like, it just sounds like a very difficult decision.
And it sounds very similar to the difficult decision that angel had to make in giving Connor up. Like, the best decision and choice for his son, which, obviously, that's questionable right now with the demons, but it seems like they genuinely are, like, being good to this woman and her child.
So then Angel's like, all right, excuse me. And he and Gun go into Angel's office and leave her in the conference room. And Gun's like, I just don't like this. This is not feeling very good. Like, he says, you know, the worst part about that place in the basement was the fact that you had to go the entire day.
Like, all that stuff you got was amazing. Like, the wife, the kids, and all that stuff. But then it was like you didn't fully know what was happening, but you knew that there was. There was some sort of lie that was happening. And then he's like, it was all hiding the horror. And then he looks at angel, says, is that all we're doing here, just hiding the horror? Angel's like, no. And Gun's like, well, I don't think I can stomach it anymore. Not after all that's happened. And Angel's like, you have to listen to me, Gun. I need you to get through this, to get through all of this so we can figure out the big picture and plot our next. Next move. Which, all this makes Angel's decision at the end of the episode that much more of a gut punch.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: Then Gun says, angel, she is our next move. Harmony comes in. She's like, hey, Angel. The Brethren are like. They're finished. All their sodas, like, cola. Pull them off anymore? They're colas. Send the science.
Yeah, they're Diet Coke.
And so then in the science lab, Wesley's working at a desk. And then Hamilton walks in. I thought this was one of the more interesting scenes of the episode.
And Hamilton's like, hey, so, by the way, have you found anything on Illyria? Because, you know, we have our concerns about her, too. Like, he's like, obviously very nervous about her. And then Wesley's like, we have common ground. And Hamilton's like, you seem to be the closest thing she has to a friend. He's like, the partners know her, Wesley. He goes. They go way back. They don't want her here. They don't want her anywhere at all. But they consider this to be your problem. And he says, oh, by the way, as he turns to leave, you might want to try taking a look at the low MHA scanner readouts. Just a thought. And I'm like, I feel like we should torture Hamilton for some research. That's just.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Seriously? He's so annoying. He is really back, Eve.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly, all of them are, but I think that's just kind of, like, comes with the job title. To be a liaison to the seniors, you have to be annoying.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: True.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: So Wesley opens the laptop and pulls up a screen that shows the blue glow on a map of the building and then sees it moving down the Hallway, we cut to Illyria. Lauren's still talking on the walkie talkie. He's like, I repeat, Bluebird got wise secret demons covers blown over. Hello, is this on? And he's like, hey, like, hello. Like, trying to talk to Angel. Somebody turned off his walkie talkie. So then he catches up to Lyria. He calls her Leary. Hey, Larry, now when did you catch on to me in the elevator. That was a tough one. She's like, the vampire plays children's games. He's like, oh, tag, you're it, honey.
He's like, like, we've all been there. We all know you can go talk to angel then.
[00:52:16] Speaker B: Seriously.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: So in the conference room, the demons are still talking with Angel Gunn and Amanda. They're like, oh, my gosh, you look amazing, Amanda. Like, third trimester. Any more pressure, Shortness of breath. Like, they're so supportive.
Angel's like, can we get this underway? He gives everybody the papers. The demons sign everything, and then they hand it to Amanda. And then Gun is still reading through the contract, and he's like, hang on, wait a minute. And he kills the Gordbach. And he ends up finding out that basically once the child reaches the their, like, on the eve of his 13th year, he'll be prepared for basically, a sacrifice.
[00:52:53] Speaker B: Oh, no. I'm so shocked and appalled.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: Aren't we, like, completely just surprised at this? But no.
So as guns talking about it, the demons are getting agitated. They're like, well, whose lawyer are you? Illyria bursts into the conference room and says to angel that he's going to see speak with her. And he's like, I'm in the middle of something. He won't listen to her until finally Illyria just demands it. And the demons are getting more agitated. So then angel takes her out into the hallway, and he passes by Lauren, and Lauren's like, do you copy ever Over? And then he's like, hey, is your thingy on? And then he sees Illyrio with Angel. He's like, oh, I'll just wait here then. This poor man.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: Poor Lauren. Lauren, go to your office.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: God, you're better than this, Lauren. You could be in a.
In a bar in Florida drinking a.
[00:53:40] Speaker B: Sea Breeze, like, performing to a crowd that loves you.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah, you're made for more than this.
So then Angel's like, you don't interrupt our work to Illyria. And then she says, you know, you don't bow to my will. Blah, blah, blah, and then doubles over in pain. Angel's like, well, we haven't done anything to you. And she's like, no, you definitely have. Like, you're jealous of me. And he's like, yeah, that's great. Listen, I got things to do. And then she grabs him by the lapels, lifts him into the air, and says, ridiculous apes. My death won't prevent your dying. What have you done to me? Angel's like, get your damn hands off of me. We still haven't done anything to you. And then she goes, you do not know. Not yet. It's too early. And then walks down the hallway. Lauren comes up behind Angels. Like, you gotta keep your thingy on for this to work, okay? And as angel walks by, he literally punches the hat off of Lauren. We hear Lauren off screen, literally.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Why would he do that? That's so stupid. It's such a bro move. And, like, angel has never been a bro like this.
Like, what is going on?
[00:54:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm about to march down to Wolfram and Hart myself and grab Lauren and be like, I'm here to rescue you.
[00:54:49] Speaker B: I'm gonna punch Angel.
[00:54:50] Speaker A: Be better friends. Harmony can come, too.
[00:54:52] Speaker B: Actually, while we're at it, yeah, we will take Harmony and Lauren and they can come be our co hosts on this podcast. Because nobody's nice to them. They would have the God forsaken place.
[00:55:02] Speaker A: Like, I know we've talked about it before, but I think that would just be so entertaining.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: And they're intentionally, again, making angel seem super angry and unhinged and scary so that we buy into the reveal that he's fighting for the wrong side at the end. But, like, you and I were talking about, like, at what cost? They did this similar over on Buffy. It's like, why do you make your characters so unlike your main character for the sake of the story, when what we've been invested in this entire time has been the characters.
We don't want to see them acting like this, even if it is a show or it's fake or whatever. Like, it puts a bad taste in our mouth. And it's hard to, like, trust anything after that, you know?
So then he tells Harmony to have gun take care of everything with the demon and Amanda. And he goes after Illyria. Well, he goes after. To where Wesley and Spike are, and he's like, okay, Illyria's going a little crazy out of her mind. He's in the science lab now. And then Spike's like, how can you tell? Yesterday she spent two hours mind melding with a potted fern. Angel's like, she thinks trying to kill you. Wesley's like, well, aren't you. Angel's like, tell me you have something, Wes. Just anything. Wes pulls out this giant gun like, thing and he's like, all right. Well, she's unstable. She's overloading the fusion between her demon essence and her host's body seems to be deteriorating. He's like, it's as if the human part of her can no longer contain the demonic power within. Which, again, is supposed to be a greater statement on. Oh, that's what's actually happening to angel, too. Angel's hu. Is losing touch with his humanity. And so the demonic part of him is winning, which means he is siding with Wolfram and Hart, which means he's swinging more to the evil side in this great, great war and stuff. Which is actually very interesting because it. Thematically, it works well with the original premise, which was Doyle saying, you have to cling to connection and humanity or else you're going to start seeing people as snacks again and again. You know, a person can't sustain this much power without destroying the person and those around them. And this idea, like every single member of the team compromised something in order to be here at Wolfram and Hart. And this much power is destroying themselves and the people around them too.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: And this is such an. I just thought of this. But this is an interesting comparison to, like, Buffy Season 7, when the Shadow men offer her more power and she rejects it, but then she ends up winning in the end anyway without that additional power. Like, she never was corrupted. But that's like Buffy's story.
And, I mean, we can always talk about this again after the finale, but that's an interesting little comparison, or I guess, parallel.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: There's a lot of parallels, actually, with this season and Buffy season seven and how Buffy and Angel go about things.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:50] Speaker A: Which has been really fun to notice this time around.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. You know how much I love the parallels.
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I agree.
So Wesley's like, she's going to self destruct violently and soon.
And then he says, the good news is the crack in her engine block may give us a chance to get to her. He pulls out the gun, says that this thing will basically pull out her.
Well, it's going to kill her is what Wesley says. But we know that's going to pull out her energy and stuff. Stuff. And then Spike's like, we've been tracking her. He's like, you know, she's leaking petrol and she's in the training room right now. So Wesley leads Angel and Spike down to the training room, holding the weapon. And Spike's like, okay, well, so what sort of damage are we looking at if she does actually explode, slash, implode or whatever it is? And Wesley's like, several city blocks conservatively, but possibly. Like, we're talking continent wide.
So then angel goes into the training room, passes by Lauren, and Lauren's like, do you even know how to use this thing? Holding up his walkie talkie again. In the training room, they don't see Illyria anywhere in there.
And then Lauren's like, that's weird. I didn't even see her leave. And then Spike's in the middle of saying, yeah, well, that's the problem. You don't always see her. When all of a sudden, he explodes into ash. Illyria appears behind Spike, having staked him. She clutches her stomach.
Angel tells Wes for him to do it. Now he charges Illyria. Illyria kicks angel in the face, sends him across the room. She grabs a dagger off the wall, hurls it at Wesley, pierces him in the chest like he's dead. Dead. Sends her fist through him.
Yeah, the dagger goes through Wesley, not into the wall at all. Like, every person that is getting a weapon or a fist or a foot or whatever is dead. Dead. Angel vamps out, jumps through the air, lunges at Illyria. She grabs a battle ax and slices off his head. And then.
[00:59:42] Speaker B: Crazy.
[00:59:42] Speaker A: Now there's piles of ash. Dead Lauren, dead Wesley. She surveys her handiwork. And then, bam, that's it. Which, the first time I watched this, totally, totally thought that it was like they were going to stay dead until she killed Angel. Then I was like, okay, this is not going to, like, stay this way. Yeah. But seeing Spike is a huge shock.
[01:00:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember. This is the only part of the episode that I remember really vividly. And I remember watching it for the first time, and I was like, what the hell just happened?
[01:00:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that's.
[01:00:16] Speaker B: It's a. Like such a good sequence, that time warp sequence that we're going through right now.
[01:00:21] Speaker A: It's.
[01:00:22] Speaker B: It's so well done. So good.
[01:00:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And I like that they did that before. You know what's happening with Hilaria? Like, there's obviously clues and hints and stuff once you go back and watch it. But it's such a good, like. Yeah, we're like three episodes from the end, so it's believable that somebody big would die, you know?
[01:00:39] Speaker B: That's true. And I love how they kind of like, dragged out the scene before they time warped again. I was like, wait, like, this is this can't be like the end, right? Like, this can't be how they all die. And then it, like time warps. But they, like, they dragged it out a little bit. It wasn't immediately good.
[01:00:57] Speaker A: If you're going to do something like it. It's like the Twilight movie where, like, they kill everybody and you're like. And then it's revealed that you haven't seen Twilight.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: Twilight. I have. A long time ago. I've only watched it once.
[01:01:10] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've watched all of them, but, like, in theaters, and then I just never watch them again.
Well, there's that. Not torture myself like that.
[01:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I've watched them all once for Leah and I was like, leah, I don't get this girl. And she's like, it's my comfort movie. I love this movie. I'm like, okay, the last. The last movie has that whole sequence where everyone dies and gets killed. Like, Carlisle's head gets ripped off and there's all that stuff. And then you end up finding out that that is the likely outcome, that.
What's her name? I'm calling her Amy.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: It's not Amy, it's Renesmee.
[01:01:47] Speaker A: Alice.
Alice shows to.
It's not Renese.
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Renesmee. The baby.
[01:01:53] Speaker A: No, the baby shows.
[01:01:54] Speaker B: Well, is she.
[01:01:55] Speaker A: I don't know, child at that point?
Yeah, she's like Alice, the person who can, like, see flashes of the future and stuff shows to the main Volturi guy and as like, if you attack us, this is what's gonna happen. Like, you're gonna die, we're gonna die.
And then he, like, decides not to. Which, honestly, I know, like, a lot of people really love that, and I really love it too, because in the books, they didn't have that big final fight. It just was. She showed him the future and that was it. But they cinematically decided to just show what would happen and actually, like, follow through with it. And then. Yeah. Which is kind of cool.
So anyway. But this kind of reminded me of that.
Anyway, I love my tangents today. So anyway, Olya is looking at everyone. Then she clutches her stomach, doubles over in pain, and then finds herself back in the hallway talking to angel. And he's saying, we haven't done anything to you. And then, you know, she says the same thing that she did before, grabs him by the lapels, lifts him into the air, and then she ends up doubling over in pain again as she's holding him into the air, which pulls him into the time loop with her. They're now in Wesley's office, back when she just knocked over the glass of water. Except Angel's here now. And Wesley's like, are you all right? And Angel's like, no, I'm not all right. What the hell did you do to me? Wesley's surprised to see Angel. Illyria's like, wait, you weren't here before.
Wesley's like, what happened? Larry's like an aberration in the timeline. It wasn't like this. Then she doubles over again. Now she's in the basement where guns and gun was imprisoned. Angel's there this time. And then she's accusing him, saying, you know, you're following me. You've been swept up in my wake.
And then she says, how did you worms accomplish this? And then she says, you ripped me out of linear progression. Progression. You caged me in this fractured time frame and moments that repeat themselves over and over.
And then she's like, hang on. Then she realizes what happened before and ends up up, like, going and punching the demon as he comes through, knowing that, like, that's what happened in the previous time. Angel's like, we aren't doing this. And then she punches him and says, do you know what you were when I was young? You were the muck at our feet. We called you the ooze that eats itself. You were pretty at night. You sparkled and you stank. You still stink of it.
[01:04:03] Speaker B: Sparkled.
[01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Vampire.
[01:04:06] Speaker B: Speaking of Twilight.
[01:04:07] Speaker A: Speaking of Twilight, yeah.
Angel's like, will you shut up for once?
And then he says, by God, the speechifying. Has it ever occurred to you that now might not be the best time for when we wear muck stories? And she said, dare to speak to me in this. And he says, yes, I dare. And yes, we are looking for a way of controlling you any way that we can.
He says, we can't have you just bouncing around unchecked. He says, and I know you would do the same thing. I know that for a fact. But this is my kingdom, lady, not yours. And then, like, they have a dick fight. Dick dick measuring contest. And then she doubles over again. Now they're back in the training room. Angel's there, but then he sees the bodies of Lauren, Wes. And then she's now holding. Hilarious. Holding the battle ax. And she's like, yes, Nothing's what it used to be, is it? She says, these are the fruits of your attempt to murder me. Your kingdom turned to ash and stale wind. And then she sticks her battle ax into the floor and says, I slew the white haired one first. And then Wesley and your demon clown as he wilted in terror. And then angel says, and I'm next. And she says, no, vampire. And she throws her ax into a pile of dust. It says, you were last.
And he just, like, clutches his pearls inwardly. He's very stoked on the outside, but on the inside.
[01:05:17] Speaker B: Yes, yes, of course, not me.
[01:05:23] Speaker A: And then he's like, why? And Illyria's like, because you tried to kill me? No, I'm just kidding. She says, you know, you're used.
You're from an earlier point in the timeline. You're a paradox. You're impossible angels. Like, we attacked you. She says, I didn't give you the chance. That you learn when you become a king.
Doubles over again. But instead of moving somewhere else, she continues to talk. She says, you learn to destroy everything that's not utterly yours. All that matters is victory. That's how your reign persists. You're a slave to an insane construct. You are moral. You are a slave to insane construct. You are moral. A true ruler is as moral as a hurricane. Empty but for the force of his gale, which this is a clue right here that angel isn't actually as far gone as we fear.
She says, but you, trapped in the web of the wolf, the ram, the heart. So much power here. And you quibble at its price. If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition.
And all things philosophical says Illyria doesn't believe in sharing and peace. The morality of good. The only way to win, to be a ruler, in her view, is by conquering all. You do not compromise or adapt yourself to another. You do not give your enemies to a chance to attack you. You take everything in your path and destroy anything that eludes your grasp. And you do not hide your ambitions behind deceptive benevolence or the appearance of compromise. And so angel kind of gets a little clue here.
So then he's like, all right.
He, like, hears all this. Then she stumbles over again. Then she realizes, oh, something is broken. This isn't actually you. My power is too great.
Um. She's like, I know this now as I know it every time I come to this moment. And then Angel's like, okay, well, if I'm here, it's a paradox. Then this can all change. You can change this outcome. And she says, change is constant, yet things remain the same. We start, see, like, blue fractures appearing in her chest and her cheeks. Her body starts to, like, break apart. And then all of a sudden, she explodes. And then angels blown Back. And then he recovers and finds himself in the hallway where Wesley and Spike and he were walking to the training room earlier on. And he's like. Like, hey, guys. Like, something's gonna go wrong. He's like, I just left a meeting with Illyria. He's like, she's overloading. She's gonna explode. And no one really believes him. Everything happens as it did before. They enter into the training room. And he's like, angel's still trying to convince them they're not really listening. And then he realizes that they're exactly the same way that they were before when Illyria killed them all. He's like, guys, this isn't good.
And then angel realizes, okay, she slew the white one. Haired one. The white haired one first pushes Spike out of the way. Justice.
A stake for Spike takes a stake for. He really just does care for Spike more than.
[01:08:06] Speaker B: That's his favorite child. Yeah, that's his boo. That's his. Like, I don't even know his number one, I guess.
[01:08:13] Speaker A: He my man. He my boo.
[01:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah.
[01:08:19] Speaker A: I don't even know what it is. I've heard it on TikTok.
That's angel right now.
So she ends up staking angel, but of course it doesn't hit his heart. And he changes the timeline.
And he's like, hang on, Illyrio. Wait. Like, wesley, put your weapons down. Nobody move.
He says, I know what happens. I know. You kill us all. Spike's like, that's a bit pessimistic, don't you think? And then Angel's like, then you shudder and you convulse with pain, and then you explode. And Illyria's like, you are angel from the past. You are swept up in my wake. He says, you're not a king anymore. Your domain is gone, swallowed by time. She says, and we've had this. This conversation. He says, you explode. I was there. It was powerful enough to blow me back through time. I have no idea what it does to the building.
He's like, I have to stop that. I cannot have your death. Blow away my. And she says, your kingdom. He's like, sure, whatever. And then she says, you asked me to allow you to murder me. And his Spike's like, it's not murder if you say, yes.
[01:09:14] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[01:09:15] Speaker A: And then Wesley drops another bomb and is like, well, no one's murdering you because this device won't kill you. Angel's like, like, what? You said.
[01:09:23] Speaker B: He's like, at every time.
[01:09:25] Speaker A: You know what? I'm owning it at this point. I lie. And you fall for it every time.
[01:09:30] Speaker B: He's a goddamn liar.
[01:09:33] Speaker A: He says, illyria, this device will draw the energy away from you safely. It will allow you to live. Illyria's like, your intent is not to murder. Wesley says, it never was.
And then he says, but if you. You tried to just. Or Illyria says, but you tried to destroy me to bring back Fred. And Wesley's like, yeah, but that didn't work. Is a failure. But now I know that you're all that's left. And hilarious. Like, you want to take my power to let me live, but I am my power, and I would rather be a titanic crater than be like unto you. Kicks Wesley. Spike comes in, kicks her in the face, and she says, I kill you. This is how it ends.
And then she again tosses Spike and then starts to walk. Or she slows down, time starts to walk out, but then the pain causes her to double over. And then the time warp stops. Angel stands up again and is like, future can change here. You can choose a different path. And I like how this is all showing that Illyria has to change.
Like, she keeps trying to do the same thing over and over and over again. That's the point of the time warp, right? Or like, the time keep flinging her back is the fact that she's unbending, unchanging. She's not compromising at all. And because of it, she dies and explodes every single time. And so when she makes that choice to essentially change and to adapt, then she lives, which I think is very interesting.
So then angel says that. He says, the future can change her. You can choose a different path. Hilarious says, and be nothing. He says, and be what you are, fighting to hold on to what you were. It's destroying you. And then Illyria says to Wes, you would do this to me? And he says, I'd try anyway. Every time.
Laria says, I possess so much grace, more grace than this bag of sticks could express. I was the immaculate embodiment of rule. I blame this on the weakness of your species. Wesley's like, fair enough, as he pulls the gun. He's like, sure, fine. Whatever, Elia. Well, sure, Jan. Sure.
[01:11:27] Speaker B: Sure, Jan. Sure, Leary.
[01:11:29] Speaker A: Sure, Larry. That's your new name now.
[01:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:11:32] Speaker A: Okay, guys, Leary's joining the team. Lauren's like, thank God. I need a new job.
So the weapon shoots out a beam of light and ends up pulling out the blue energy from her and putting it into the weapon. He finishes, she collapsed to the ground and just lays there and says, touch me and die. And then Spike's like, well, I don't see much of a difference. Not a very dramatic difference, really. And Wesley looks at Illyria, looks sympathetic, and says, everything is different. Then we cut to the observation area. Everyone's left but angel and Wesley. They're watching Illyria, who has not moved through the observation window.
An Angel's like, so, what's the prognosis? And Fred. Or Fred. Wesley says, she won't be stopping time or walking through dimensions. And I suspect her physical strength has decreased somewhat. Ah, convenient. Very convenient.
I'm gonna be sad about the whole, like, slowing down time thing. That effect was really, really cool.
Nigel says, that's what I wanted to hear. You're gonna stay with her, aren't you? Wesley says, yes. Angel's like, I don't like where this is going. I don't like where this has been.
[01:12:36] Speaker B: Angels like, I'm not doing weird in my life, but this is Is weird.
[01:12:41] Speaker A: He's like, this is pretty weird. Wesley's like, I'm not in love with this thing, angel, but for some reason, I need it right now. Angel's like, yeah, well, that's just weird. And then Wesley's like, I know, but she could still prove to be problematic for us. Much of what she was is still intact. I doubt she'll ever try ever stop trying to conquer everything. And angel says, serve no master but your ambition, Quoting what Illyria said to him. And then he, like, takes off, and he's like, I think you may have been right before about Illyria being a resource. She just might make the team yet. Which this is interesting, because he realizes he doesn't need to trust someone to use them, Just like with Wesley.
So back in the conference room, the demons are still arguing with Gun outside the conference room while Amanda waits inside alone. Could you imagine? Everybody dies. And then Gun's the only one left. His entire, like, like, friend group just got slaughtered, and he has no clue.
[01:13:35] Speaker B: True. Yeah, he's better off at this point.
Free. Free Gun.
[01:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he would have been taken out in the blast, but at least it would have been quick.
[01:13:46] Speaker B: Oh, true, true. Yeah.
[01:13:48] Speaker A: So he's still arguing with the demons. He's like, only the mother's consent will sanctify this transaction. The demons are like, well, we have that. Gun's like, okay, show it to me. They're like, it's an agreement in principle, and yada, yada going back and forth. Gun doesn't want to take their money. And then the other demon leader is talking with Hamilton And Hamilton's like, well, that would be more Angel's business than mine, basically leaving the decision up to Angel. And then angel comes out of the lobby, and Gun approaches him as well. And angel says, gun, the baby belongs to the fell. And Gun's like, what? She hasn't signed anything yet. There's nothing on paper. Angel ignores him, turns to the brother and says, gentleman. And Guns like, angel, what are you doing? Angel notices Hamilton watching and says, what? We're supposed to serve our clients? Walks into the conference room and closes the door.
[01:14:41] Speaker B: Damn.
[01:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:43] Speaker B: Bad boy, Angel.
[01:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really rough.
All right, well, you know, come back to the next episode.
Completely different tone, guys.
[01:14:57] Speaker B: It's such a different vibe.
[01:15:00] Speaker A: Completely different. We'll shelve that for two weeks and come back to it. And, yeah, very, very different, but very interesting episode again. And I'm very fascinated to keep talking about that as we get into the finale. And I'm curious. I'm curious what I'm going to think of the finale, too.
[01:15:17] Speaker B: Me too. I'm very curious. Because, like I said, I've always had mixed feelings about it. I love the episode. I've always loved the episode.
Like, not fade away.
I just have mixed feelings about the plan.
[01:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I always have. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:15:35] Speaker B: But I wonder how we'll feel this time, because I feel like we've been talking about it and, like, I'm. I'm understanding it a little bit more, but I also haven't seen it in a long time, so I need to, like, watch it again.
[01:15:46] Speaker A: It's definitely more of a symbolic choice.
[01:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely a great way to look at it.
[01:15:55] Speaker A: I think we have both.
[01:15:56] Speaker B: My issue with. With it is, like, the logistics of it, like, the way that it makes sense within, like, the greater story. But I think if you look at it from, like, a symbolic point of view.
[01:16:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:16:07] Speaker B: Then I can.
[01:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I think that's how I always feel about Buffy and Chosen as well.
It works really well on a symbolic level. But then you think about it logistically, and you're like, oh, well, there's a lot of, like, holes. But again, like, that makes it kind of satisfying narratively, if you do it that way. Because, again, the symbolism of it all is the heart of the show.
[01:16:34] Speaker B: Right.
[01:16:35] Speaker A: For both. For both shows, honestly.
[01:16:37] Speaker B: Right, right.
[01:16:38] Speaker A: People laugh all the time about me talking about symbolism and stuff, but the symbolism really, really is the heart of what the show is trying to get at when it comes to a lot of these stories, for sure.
[01:16:47] Speaker B: For sure.
[01:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm curious to talk about it and see where we land and stuff. But yeah. Listeners, let us know your thoughts on this episode on angel and how he's acting like just a complete dick this episode, how he treats everyone, but also, like, what they're leading up to.
You guys can email us spoilers. It's fine. Illyria, everything that happens with her. Wesley just choosing to blatantly lie to angel and just, just. I think I like the whole idea of, like, choosing to, like, angel tells Illyria, like, becoming more of what you are, like, accept who you are. I think that's kind of Wesley. He's kind of like, that's who I am. I guess I'm a liar.
And he wouldn't. He wouldn't be wrong either. But, yeah, let us know your thoughts on the episode and come back next time for a really, really fun one with a special guest. So until then, guys, we will talk. Talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast and you can email us at investigatingangelpodcast at gmail.
[01:17:53] Speaker B: Com.
