S5. Ep20. The Girl in Question Ft. All Bronze, No Brains!

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're Talking about season five, episode 20, the girl in Question, written by Stephen Tonight and Drew Goddard and directed by David Greenwalt, and originally aired May 5, 2004. And today, we have a special impromptu guest. Tony from All Bronze no Brains is here with us. Welcome, Tony. [00:00:57] Speaker C: Hey, everybody. [00:00:59] Speaker A: I really wanted to say up the Buff, but it's not up the Buff anymore. So in my mind, I had to be like, say, all browns, no braids. [00:01:06] Speaker C: Yeah. The podcast formerly known as up the. [00:01:09] Speaker A: Buff, that's going to echo you for the rest of your podcast journey. And I'm so sorry about that. [00:01:14] Speaker C: It's really hard making compilation videos when, like, a lot of. In. In the videos, when I put, like, the title of the podcast and, like, oh, having to edit around your template. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Still has up the Buff on it. [00:01:25] Speaker C: Thank you for calling me out to that that one time, because I totally. That was intentional. It wasn't even a template. I had to type that. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Oh, you wrote it in after. [00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I totally just went in and called it that. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Even you can't escape it. That's hilarious. No, it really does kind of roll off the tongue, though. [00:01:42] Speaker C: That does. [00:01:44] Speaker A: But I am excited to have you on originally. Like, Leia and I had talked about only having prophecy girls on this season, and then you guys kind of came onto our radar, and I realized, oh, we're about to end the podcast, and we've never had you on. We thought it'd be really fun. And what better episode than this one? Because it's just. It's just. It's chaotic, it's fun. It's got some things to discuss. Like, a lot of things to discuss. But it's just. [00:02:11] Speaker B: It's a lot an episode. [00:02:12] Speaker A: It's an episode. Like, I don't. I don't want to say it's a good episode, but it's entertaining, for sure. But, yeah, what did you guys think of this episode? [00:02:20] Speaker C: So I watched this, obviously, in, like, a mad dash of, like, a season five complete rewatch in, like, two days. So I loved. I loved where it fell because it was so, like, chaotic and fun and really explored the Ancient. Obviously, this whole season is really all about exploring that angel spike dynamic, so. But it was a nice break in the heavy drama that's kind of been. But I I loved it. Like, there's so many elements of it. Like, I felt like it's really well balanced, the comedy of Italy with, like, the serious drama of what's happening back in LA with, like, Fred and her family. And I just thought it was a really fun. It reminded me of, like, season one angel, when they had, like, you know, like a fun one off episode. There was like, God, that's my most skipped episode ever. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Really. Let's go. [00:03:16] Speaker C: I just. [00:03:16] Speaker B: I love it. [00:03:17] Speaker C: I just can't do it. But, yeah, no, I loved. I absolutely loved it. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Leia. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Leia. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Well, I'm curious because you have, like, off the podcast, we've talked about this episode and you're like, oh, I just love it. I see it as, like an out of universe pov. And it's been really fun. But, like, it's still true. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's still true. I think this episode is really funny. It's really enjoyable to watch. I think rewatching it with the intention of, like, having to talk about it after, I. There are some things that I feel are. It's cheap in a lot of ways. Like, I feel like it cheapens a lot of things in, like, the general Buffyverse, specifically the relationships that we're talking about. But that doesn't mean, like, this is still, I think, probably one of the most entertaining episodes. I love the humor. I think just watching David and James on screen having so much fun is really contagious. Like, I can't help but like it. But obviously, like, when you get into the actual story and, like, specific things, it becomes a little problematic for sure. But I don't know, it's like, this is like a guilty pleasure episode for me. And I still totally view it as, like, okay, this is like an alternate universe, like, one off type of episode that's just, like, fun. So I don't really take it too seriously. But obviously we're doing a podcast. We have to talk about it and, like, kind of analyze a little bit. [00:04:47] Speaker A: Have to be a little serious. [00:04:48] Speaker B: There are certain things that bother me about it for sure, and we'll talk about it when we get there. But, like, overall, this is an episode that I would watch again and enjoy a lot again, you know? So. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:00] Speaker B: What do you think, Sarah? It's your turn. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Just. Yeah, it's like, mixed bag. I think I have, like, historically not liked this episode, but this rewatch, I think it's just. Everything's been so heavy over on Buffy season seven, and everything's been so heavy this season. After Fred's death that this episode was just like, oh, it's so nice to laugh. It was so nice to see the characters. And it's so obvious that the actors and the writers had so much fun creating this episode. And that makes it more enjoyable for me. And then it was fun as a last episode to have the fanged four together, the whirlwind. Um. And, you know, obviously, I'm. I'm a sucker for anytime they mentioned Buffy on screen. So I really enjoy that. I like Andrew. I think Andrew's really funny. I think that it's disappointing, but not surprising to me. And you and I were talking about this before we recorded. It's not surprising, or. I mean, it is disappointing, but it's not surprising to me that the show has actively tried to distance itself from the legacy of Buffy. And this is just a continuation of that. Specifically, the relationship between Buffy and Angel has been so minimized and often actively ignored in places where it was so, like, obvious that they were ignoring it to the point of distraction. And so I think that this isn't. Makes a lot of sense that in the last few episodes of this series, the show is once again trying to minimize and distance the two shows and characters. Like, yes, and you and I were talking about how, like, we so agree that Spike and Angel both need to move on with their lives. But I think that there could have been a more respectful way of doing that that also acknowledges the impact Buffy and Angel had on each other and on the show. And I think that, like, the. If. If, say, the show had been about, like, Wesley, I. It would make a lot of sense that we wouldn't have a lot of, like, tiebacks, and you wouldn't have a lot of characters coming over and you wouldn't have Wesley going over, and it would make sense for the show to kind of deviate. And it's like, okay, it's still in the same universe, but these characters don't really interact. But you have Buffy and Angel, soulmates and who have been like, Buffy and Angel have been so intertwined, specifically in the first three seasons of Buffy, and you don't see Buffy ever forgetting about Angel. I think on this show, it's just another example of that, even though I do agree that angel and Spike need to move on. So it's just like, it's a mixed bag, but at the same time, it's so funny and it's so fun to watch that I just find myself kind of being like, I'm just going to take it for what it is and Try not to think too hard about it, you know? [00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah. That's exactly how I watch this episode. And, like, I agree with everything you said. I think that's what bothers me about it. But at the same time, this is just what angel, the series, does. [00:07:46] Speaker A: I feel like we accepted that, you know. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, they take, like, really things that I guess we specifically, like, enjoyed and see a lot of weight and value in, and they kind of, like, minimize it. But I do think that this episode in particular, just the way angel acts and stuff, like, there are ways for me to rationalize it in my mind based on where he's been in the last little bit. But, yeah, it's definitely an episode where you just kind of have to shut your brain off and just enjoy the shenanigans. And it's great that way. [00:08:25] Speaker C: So I think rewatching it and I don't know, obviously, if you can put this in, depending on. I don't know if you guys read the comics. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. The comics. About this one. Yeah, Go ahead and mention it. [00:08:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I think because I was quite an avid, kind of, like, fan of the comics and stuff afterwards, like, rewatching it, knowing, obviously, because I believe that that is canon. Because it's meant to be. It does make it kind of different, and I think it makes it easier to enjoy. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah, true. Because it turns out that, like, it wasn't Buffy. Right? It's like. [00:09:01] Speaker A: Yes. Turns out Andrew had set up the decoy, and he was actually trying to prank angel and Spike or, like, deter them and stuff. So all of this was Andrew's idea, essentially. [00:09:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:12] Speaker A: And Buffy and was never dating the Immortal. That was all just Andrew's idea, which. [00:09:17] Speaker B: Hello. No, I think she should be dating the Immortal. Because my girl deserves to have, like, a hot girl summer. So she deserves to go out to the club. Buffy deserves to be in the club, is all I'm saying. And if that's with the Immortal, then I'm okay with it. So I reject that. [00:09:32] Speaker C: Well, my only problem with that is that, like, why can they not give Buffy some, like, hot hunk guy that has nothing to do with angel is Spike. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Why should I have to connect? Yeah. [00:09:43] Speaker B: Because she likes her men dangerous. That's why. [00:09:46] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's why. That's why I've auditioned for the new show. Because I'm like, they're gonna cast me as Buffy's Irish lover. [00:09:56] Speaker B: She does like the Irish boys. [00:09:59] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, she does, actually. [00:10:02] Speaker A: You just need to be named William. Just time to Rename. Yourself. [00:10:06] Speaker C: My middle name is William. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Oh, no, see? Perfect. It's meant to be. That's hilarious. [00:10:12] Speaker C: Yes. William the chubby. That's gonna be me. [00:10:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I think. I think the biggest. In this last, like, disappointment thing I'll talk about, I think the biggest disappointment to me is that I feel like it's a very, like you said, Leia, cheap but easy way and also lazy way to pay homage to the Buffy, Angel, Buffy, Spike relationships by making fun of it, poking fun at it is a really easy way to, like, kind of say it and move past it. And I think that there's. It would have been much more meaningful for them to actually be like, yeah, these relationships meant something to both these guys and to Spike and obviously to the fans as well. So, again, it just feels like yet another example of Angela series being like, we don't care what it meant to the fans or whatever. We're just, we want to do what we're going to do and we're going to end it. But again, the show is ending abruptly. They had to write something really fast because they just found out it was canceled, like, two episodes ago. So. So I get it. And I know a big criticism of this episode is the placement. But at the end of the day, like, they didn't know they were going to be canceled. So, like, it couldn't have been placed any earlier. So I get it. So that's just my gripes about it. Other than that, like, literal, some, like, laugh out loud moments of watching this episode that just had me going back and rewatching it over and over again. [00:11:34] Speaker B: No, it took me so long to watch this episode because I just kept going back. [00:11:37] Speaker A: I was watching it. It was. [00:11:38] Speaker B: And cackling. I'm just like. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Yep. All right. So David Greenwald, which is really fun that David Greenwald is directing this because he co. Show ran. I don't. Yeah, I think he co. Started. Co created. Yeah, whatever. The word is, he helped Josh read. We didn't start this show, but then he had to leave because of him and network issues with pay and such. But it's so nice that he's back and able to direct an episode and kind of help clip close out this show that he helped start. He described this episode as sort of a Rosencrantz and Gildenstern go to Rome as like, kind of the premise, which, if you're not familiar with that they're the childhood friends of Shakespeare's Hamlet and there was a whole play that was created after them that showed what they got up to in the scenes that we didn't see in Hamlet. And that idea is what sparked the Zeppo. And so they kind of carried that over a little bit over here. [00:12:35] Speaker B: I thought it was just like, Dumb and Dumber go to Italy or Dumb and Dumber dumb. They're so stupid. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Or like hot tub time machine or something. Yeah, yeah. And then it's a commonly held but mistaken belief, this is from IMDb, that the producers sought Sarah Michelle Geller for this episode, but actually she was never going to be a part of this episode. They actually wanted her to come in the next episode, then the penultimate episode, Power Play, but she was busy filming. Peace Out. David Fury explains this in an interview. He says there was very, very little talk about having Sarah Michelle Geller in this episode. She was never going to be in that. The missed opportunity to see Buffy was always going to be the joke of that. It's the tease of they're going to see Buffy and they can't quite get quite get to her. It's sort of the after hours kind of craziness where it's like, I can't get to her. I can't see her. And that was pretty much decided. The person we expected to get and didn't get was Michelle Trachtenberg. We'd expect expected to get her for that episode, but she was tied up prepping a movie, I believe, and wasn't able to do it, which is why we brought Andrew back again. But Sarah. No, we never expected Sarah to be in that episode. We did think she might be in the second to last episode, Power Play, just like angel appeared in the second to last episode of Buffy's finale. We thought we'd do that, but wound up not. So. [00:13:47] Speaker B: I am glad that Sarah Michelle Geller was never able to kind of make it into, like, would I have loved to see Buffy in this season? Absolutely. But I feel, like, sad to say, but I don't trust the writers to have made it like, something that was good. I feel like they would have turned it into a Spike and angel fight over Buffy type of thing. And I definitely didn't want to see that. Like, if Buffy's gonna come to this show, I want her and angel to have a meaningful interaction. And I don't know that they would have done that because as we've just talked about in depth, they often turn anything Buffy related into like some type of joke to be like, that's the other show that we're not associated with. Like, we don't like them, you know. [00:14:31] Speaker C: So I haven't been a huge fan of, like, how they wrote Buffy and Co off screen to, like, to have so, like, vehemently went against angel without ever coming to talk to him. Especially with Nay. Now, as. As we know or as we don't know at this point, they're running, like, a anti government, like, slayer army, like, doing what they need to do. So I just don't think that they would really be that annoyed at angel using Wolfram and Hart. I also think that Buffy knows Angel better than that to know that, you know. So I think. I don't think they would have been able to write it in a way that felt like it was really our Buffy. [00:15:08] Speaker B: And even, like, the last time Buffy was on the show, the way that she was written was just very much like, oh, here's Angel's angry example. That's mad at him. And then they resolve it over on Buffy season four. [00:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Anytime Buffy's been on the show, with the exception I will remember you. But obviously that had a point, too. They are using it to distance Buffy and Angel. So anytime she's back, it's to, hey, we're past this. We gotta. We just have to close it off so that we can move on to other things. And so I feel like that would have just been another. They would have done that again here in this season. And obviously we don't trust the way they would have done that because I think there's a way to do that that's respectful because we've seen it over on Buffy, but I don't know that they would have done it here. Yeah. And we'll talk more about, like, Michelle Trachtenberg and what they were supposed to do, like, once we get to that final scene at the very end, because there was some interesting stuff with that. But. And then, like, we were talking about, like, the eight season comics, they set up this whole thing as Andrew's idea that Buffy was actually, I think, in Scotland. And Andrew wanted to set it up and have her dating the Immortal as a decoy. And the quote from the comments comics is Buffy saying, as the narrator, the guys figured I was a target, set up two other slayers to be me. One's in Rome partying very publicly and supposedly dating some guy called the Immortal. That part was Andrew's idea. He did research on the guy, said it would be hilarious for some reason, apparently, the reason being a prank aimed at Spike and Angel. I can't be mad at. Can't be mad at. And then Julie Benz has talked about her last appearance in the series. She said it was just a great way, I think, for all of us to kind of say goodbye to our characters, to be together and to have some fun and to not have it be this painful one of us sobbing on the floor kind of moment. Because it was always one of us having to do that. My sheet that I was wrapped in kept getting stuck on the camera dolly. And it was kind of funny. It would kind of fall down. It was a great way to end flashing everybody. We had a lot of fun. And I'm so happy they had us back to do that scene because anything else I think would have been too hard, too difficult and too painful. And you could tell they just had so much fun. And this was, I think, one of my favorite interactions that I've seen with the Whirlwind. And I feel like we've seen them do some pretty intense stuff. So it was really fun to just have like a laid back episode. [00:17:25] Speaker B: I was gonna say they felt. They all felt like, not like themselves in that scene to me because every other scene we've seen of them is like, them being like, killing baby. Exceptionally, like, dementedly evil or like, like crying and sobbing or it's like very heavy all the time. So this scene where it's just like a day in the life of the Fanged Four felt strange to me, but I enjoyed it, obviously. It was really. [00:17:51] Speaker A: But I also feel like it's in character. Like, I would totally see, yeah, they went around and murdered people, but they also had orgies. They also had sex all the time. They also, like, hung out. And they're all about chasing animalistic tendencies and pleasure and stuff. So, like, sex would be a big part of that. And we've seen that how they've weaponized it against each other. But it would make sense that. I mean, they are kind of weaponizing it here too. But, like, in a way that's more for comic effect than it's supposed to be for drama and character development. But yeah, so this episode is all about finding conviction on your own and not in others. And to stop chasing your past, to move forward the whole metaphor of finding your head and not being lost to animalistic impulses. Else's. Angel and Spike need to work together for the good of the mission and put aside their differences, which is kind of interesting. And Leia and I talk a lot about it in the past couple episodes. When it comes to Wesley's arc in particular, it's really interesting that Wesley is floundering right now and not really able to move past Fred's death. And the show uses nostalgia as a way to tell us, the viewers, that it's time to move past the ship wars. And the episode is used as a transition into the final fight, but it's also used as a transition for Wesley in a lot of ways. And we'll talk about that, like, as we go forward as he is contrasting Spike and Angel in the sense that they're really ready and willing to move forward, and Wesley doesn't really seem to. And I find that really interesting as we continue the idea of Wesley being a tragic character. So. All right, that's the longest intro we've had in forever, but that's okay. Here we go. Jump again. Who'd think it'd be the girl in question? But surprises every day for me. All right, so we're in Wolfram and Hart. This episode was paced so well. I know, Tony, you mentioned that, but the way, like you said, they jumped back and forth from, like, the really heavy stuff to the drama. But also the camera movements, the way that they, like, the camera was, like, constantly moving. It just created a very visually interesting episode on top of everything else. So Angela and Gun are walking through the lobby arguing about a case that Gun wants to handle immediately. Angel wants to take his time on it. We immediately have our first dick joke, which not sets the tone for this entire episode. That is just one giant penis measuring contest. But also kind of gives a nod to the events of the last episode where angel really, like, made morally sketchy decisions by signing the baby over to the demon clan. [00:20:13] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Did you watch the last episode? Because I didn't. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I did. [00:20:17] Speaker B: I feel like I should have watched it because. So we're recording out of. Out of order. Yeah, so we're actually recording Time Bomb next week. And I was like, okay, I should have watched it, but I didn't have time. And I'm like, I hope I didn't miss anything, because now we're seeing Gun and he's in, like, his. His, like regular clothes. [00:20:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:35] Speaker B: And obviously not in a hell dimension because the last episode re recorded. Yeah, he was Origin. He was in the hell dimension. And I'm like, oh, I up. I should have watched it. [00:20:47] Speaker A: She's like, it's a. It's a standalone. I don't need to watch anything before. [00:20:50] Speaker B: Yeah, fine. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Anytime we skip episodes, I go and watch the episode beforehand so I can have context moving into it. But it's okay. Yeah, you don't need to you don't. You're just here to look pretty. [00:21:01] Speaker B: You can just fill me in. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah, but the last episode was the one where you had David Boreanas's wife as the pregnant that comes in with the baby. And then the she. [00:21:13] Speaker C: I didn't realize that was her. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's his wife and she's pregnant with his son, Jaden. [00:21:18] Speaker B: No, she wasn't pregnant. I think she. They had. Oh, she already had season three. Yeah, when. When the show was in season three, I think. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:26] Speaker B: That was just a prosthetic belly. [00:21:29] Speaker A: That's right. I forgot about that. But yeah, that's the one where the demon clan wants to have her baby and she's going to sign it over because she needs money for her husband to get treatment. And then they're fighting over. At the very end of the episode, angel kind of makes this really jarring decision of the baby goes to the demon clan. And everybody is like, why are making such a horrible moral decision? And that's kind of where it ended. And now we have Gun, who has had a complete 180 ever since the events of Fred and him signing everything over. He's starting to be a little bit more morally firm than he's ever been. And so he's challenging Angel's leadership in this moment and his decision making skills. And Angel's like, well, fine, we'll send Spike because I don't care if he dies. Which I don't know if you guys noticed Harmony's fit. I cracked up so bad. You can kind of tell what era we're in right now. So early 2000s with like the coral. Coral and teal, like, dominated the early 2000s. And like her side bangs and the way her hair is and then her skirts, like that layered skirt that hits like mid calf at the end. I don't know. I wore so many clothes like that. It was so funny. [00:22:39] Speaker B: She looked so good, though. She always looks good. [00:22:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I was gonna say. I don't know how much you've talked about this during this season. I have to revisit some of your episodes. But she, in the rewatch has just been like an absolute standout of just. [00:22:52] Speaker A: I agree. [00:22:53] Speaker C: Just incredible. [00:22:55] Speaker B: They just brought such a positive energy to the show and like just a. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Light that the show has been missing because with Cordelia in season four not. It just. It got too heavy. And I think if. If Harmony had been there in season four, it would have helped a lot in balancing things out. And I think Leia, I think they were trying so hard to add Levity to seasons three and that they went almost in the opposite direction and made it way too. What's the word? Like goofy. Like they had it goofy in some ways. But then also we're trying to do these really heavy themes. And so then the tonal balance was just thrown out of whack. [00:23:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:32] Speaker A: But yes, harmony is fantastic. All right, so we cut immediately to Angel's office and Spike is lounging in a chair playing a Nintendo game. He's got his legs like thrown over the arm of the chair and his like be kicked up on the table. And he's like, bugger that, do it yourself. And I was like, we are full in our teens slash early 20s spike era. [00:23:52] Speaker B: I thought growing up though I thought he was in mid-20s. Now we're back to teens. [00:23:56] Speaker A: This is a 17 year old spike. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Jeez. [00:24:00] Speaker A: It's giving Groot as he matures through the movies. I am Groot. And everyone's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Language. [00:24:07] Speaker B: I'm surprised he's not asking angel for more money in cars. Like, dad, can I have some more money to go to the strip club? [00:24:16] Speaker A: Literally, you need to go watch some blondes on a pole. So there's a gang war that's brewing and the remains of one of the gang leaders died on a business trip in Italy. And they need to go there and retrieve his body and return it to the family in the next 26 hours. So gun is like really stressed about this. And Spike's like, or what? He gets deader guns? Like, no, he stays dead, but they pupate and then they live again, but only if the proper rituals are performed formed by the immediate family. And he's like, if the the capos body isn't returned in time, the rituals won't take. And then that entire like there's going to create a power vacuum in the other guys. [00:24:51] Speaker B: This is quite serious. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Which is really bad because this particular guy that died that it's like the mafia, their gang or whatever, they tend to be more human lenient. And so if they die, you're going to have worse demons stepping in and taking over. And so he's like, we need to get this done. Angel's like, all right, fine. This is seriously. Then he yanks the video game from Spike and knocks his feet to the ground. He's like, come on, pack your bags. Hey, I don't even speak the language. Angel's like, we'll get you a book. And then. Oh, go ahead. Leia. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Nothing. I was just gonna say I feel like Spike is lying and he does know how to speak Italian. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah. He's just shy, so, yeah, there you go. He's been there before. [00:25:36] Speaker B: He knows. Because if you're gonna live that long, like, you're gonna learn, you're gonna pick up a few languages along the way, so. Come on, Spike, stop lying. I know you speak Italian. [00:25:48] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, dawn was only 15, and she had, like, ancient Sumerian in the bag by the time it was seven. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And there's a part that was cut out in one of the scripts, I think it was in. It's the one where she does. It's the shadow puppets 1. Get it done. There's a line that was cut out where apparently dawn had stayed up all night trying to translate the Sumerian and trying to get the spell. And then she finds out that Willow was like, oh, hey, yeah, there's a translation for that. And Don was like, are you kidding me? I was up all night. Don doesn't get enough credit. So then Angel's phone rings, which we all know, once his phone rings, that is a symbol for the mission. Or Buffy. Or his hopes. His hopes and dreams, his desires. So his phone rings and spikes. You know, talking to Gun. Like. How do you say wank off in Italian? And Gun's like, can someone just get. [00:26:40] Speaker B: On the plane, please? [00:26:42] Speaker A: And then Angel's having a very serious phone call. He's like, hello? [00:26:46] Speaker B: What? [00:26:46] Speaker A: When? I understand. And he's like, looks all worried. And Spike's like, okay, what is it this time? Uber vamps, Demon gods, devil robots, all Buffy villains, and just, like, it's Buffy. But the way that he says it, it's like, there's a little station. There's a little. [00:27:02] Speaker B: He looked like. I was like, oh, my God. I'm getting PTSD flashbacks to, like, last episode of season two. And he walks in, and Willow's sitting on that couch looking, like, so sad. And then he's like, it's Buffy. And he looks like he's gonna cry. That's literally what I. Yeah, I was like, he looks devastated. Like, what's happening? [00:27:20] Speaker A: Fudge Smile was like, oh, darn. Gotta go rescue Buffy. No. Maybe I was reading into what I wanted to read into. [00:27:29] Speaker B: I don't know. I saw just, like, he looked worried as hell. And imagine watching this episode for the first time ever, and he says, it's Buffy. With that look on his face, you would think, like, oh, my God. Is Buffy dead again? Hasn't this woman suffered enough? [00:27:47] Speaker A: Well, it's. It's funny because I've. I've referenced this before. I know. I've said it. I've said it for sure. On Becoming Buffy. Um, but the first time we watched this or. I was showing this to Leah, so I had prefaced the season beforehand to Leah and Tabby. And I was like, listen, I don't want you to get your hopes up. I was like, buffy does not come back in this season. Like, I don't want you to be watching the show, trying to. To look for Buffy coming back. And Leah's like, okay, got it. Got to understand. And then we get to this episode, and she didn't believe me. I was actively telling her, leah, she's not coming back. And Leah's like, no, you're lying. You're lying. And so the entire time, like, we get to the part where, you know, you see the blonde girl dancing, Leah was like. And then we got to about halfway through, and it became very obvious that Buffy was not gonna come back. And Leah was getting, like. She was fuming. She was getting so angry of the episode. And she was screaming and raging, was like, how could you? You lied to me. I was like, I had told you the entire time what was gonna happen. She was like, so sobbing, she will even say she was crashing out. She's like, I don't even want to finish watching the show. I was like, literally, we have two episodes. Like, you could make it. And we get to the end. She's like, to this day that she says this is her most hated angel episode. [00:29:02] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Because Buffy doesn't show up. It's because you traumatized her. [00:29:10] Speaker A: I was honest the entire time. No, we're not gonna blame this on me. Leah. Leah's a little Delulu sometimes. Okay, Love you, Leah. [00:29:19] Speaker B: That's so funny. [00:29:21] Speaker A: But, yeah, every time I watch this episode, I snicker a little bit because I just remember her getting more and more angry as the episode goes on. All right, so angel strides out of the office, heads for the elevators with Spike guns trailing behind them. Angels, like, I said, I'll take care of it. Guns like, take care of what? And all of a sudden, Spike is like, hey, sign me up. I'm. Get me on that plane. Like, buy me books. I'm going. He's like, is Buffy all right? Angel's like, she will be when I get there. Spike's like, what happened? Angel's like, the immortal Spike, like, actively recoils in. [00:29:55] Speaker B: In mourning. They're like. [00:29:59] Speaker A: And Spike's like, the foulest evil hell ever vomited forth. And Harmony's like, worse than you. Angel's like, he was spotted in Rome near Buffy's. And gun's like, wait a minute. Rome? That's where the capo died. Spike's like, oh, wait, that's definitely his M.O. and Harmony's like, wait, what's going on? Angel's like, the Immortal. He whacks the capo, lures me to Rome. He takes out a slayer and a vampire with a soul. Guns, like. Plus, he starts a war when the capo's body isn't returned for resurrection. This guy's good. I love how so much this episode relies on inference about the Immortal. Like, what do we actually know about this guy? Not much. Yeah, it's just rejection. [00:30:40] Speaker B: He's hot. He has a lot of money. According to powerful. Yeah, according to Andrew, that's true. Unreliable narrator of the entire world. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Exactly. Angel's like, harmony, have the jet fueled and ready for takeoff. And then he, like, opens the elevator and spikes like, do you really think we can take him? Angel's like, hang on. [00:30:59] Speaker B: What do you like, who is we? [00:31:01] Speaker A: Spike's like, what? You don't think I'm gonna let you traipse off to Italy without me, do you? Angel's like, you don't speak the language. Spike's like, I'll get a book. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Of course. [00:31:11] Speaker A: And then Angel's like, you're only going to make things work worse. Spike's like, look, we get the capo's body, we rescue Buffy, we stop the Immortal. It's that simple. Unless he kills you, which would be. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Sad. [00:31:23] Speaker A: And just, like, he's not going to kill me. Spike's like, not if I'm with you. Like, super smug. [00:31:27] Speaker B: I mean, that's a good point. Though they do make a great team. [00:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. We have yet to see them actively working together in a meaningful way. Like, obviously, they went together to go try to save Fred, but they didn't do much other than hold hands, to be honest, so. [00:31:43] Speaker B: But they held hands. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Real power of holding hands. [00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah. They destroyed some demons. [00:31:51] Speaker A: So now we're on the jet, they're trying to get drunk. They can't because, you know, they've got these tiny little bottles of Jack Daniels. Angel's like, just admit it. You think you're going to ride in, save the day, and sweep Buffy off of her feet and spikes, like. Like you're not thinking. Thinking the same thing. Angel's like, I'm already seeing somebody. And Spike. Oh, what, Dog girl? [00:32:11] Speaker C: Yeah, Nina. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Catching some strays this episode. And you know what? I'm here for it. [00:32:16] Speaker C: Good. [00:32:17] Speaker B: Because you hate Her. [00:32:19] Speaker C: I hate her as well. And this was kind of something I was wanted to ask you, was that I love that Spike calls her Fido later on in this scene as well. But also the idea that, like, angel can have sex with her without turning evil feels like such. Like, you'd feel so shit about yourself. Like, if you're like, oh, like, normally. Normally he loses his soul because he. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Doesn'T love you enough. [00:32:42] Speaker C: Now he's just like, yeah, I'm not good enough to lose. To lose his soul. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Yeah. That's the biggest insult. Well, in the next episode, too, like, there's a moment where you're just like, nina, girl. [00:32:52] Speaker B: I feel like that's why I find her so inoffensive as, like, a potential love interest for angel. Because I'm like, okay. She's. She's just like. It's just a little situationship. They're just, you know, Angel's getting some. It's not. It's not crazy. It's sad for Nina because obviously she's a lot more into him than he is into her. But, like, yeah, you know? [00:33:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I guess I just, like. It's stupid to me that angel would lower himself to just be with someone that's like Nina. You know, lower him himself. [00:33:25] Speaker C: Oh, come on. [00:33:25] Speaker A: It's Nina. Like, what? She's so basic. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Okay, but maybe he needs some basic in his life. The last time they tried to pair him up with somebody, it was all, like, corruption. [00:33:35] Speaker A: That's true. [00:33:35] Speaker B: And destiny and all this. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Can find something in the middle. Can we find something? [00:33:40] Speaker B: I think. I think Nina is the middle. Nina is the middle. [00:33:43] Speaker A: When is the middle? Right? [00:33:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:46] Speaker B: I also feel like that could get out of control. [00:33:50] Speaker A: But that would be exciting. I'm bored. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah, they do have chemistry there. [00:33:54] Speaker A: That's the thing. Nina and angel don't have chemistry. And Cordelia and Angel. Sorry, I don't think they had chemistry, at least in a romantic sense. But Nina or not Nina, Gwen and Angel actually had chemistry. So, like. [00:34:08] Speaker B: But also, Gwen already slept with Gun. [00:34:11] Speaker A: And everyone's passing everyone around. Spike slept with Buffy. Buffy slept with Spike. Spikes. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Especially this show. Everybody dates, like, everybody. Because they're so. Like. They're so fucking incestuous. Like, they just never talk to anyone outside of their group. [00:34:25] Speaker C: It's like the gay. It's like the gay community. It's like everyone has shocked everyone else. [00:34:29] Speaker B: Like, yes, pretty much. Angel Investigations. Is that. [00:34:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:36] Speaker B: I don't know. I just think the middle ground. Nina is fine for the middle ground. I don't want Some fucking. He can't be with Buffy, obviously, because she's off living her life. And there's the whole curse and vampirism thing with. The whole thing with Cordelia was just, like, too much, not done well. They just went from, like, zero to a million for no reason. This is like, a good. In the middle. [00:34:59] Speaker A: I feel like, you know, I'm happy that you're happy. I just will never be okay with it. And it bothers me, and I don't know why it really should not bother me, but it does, and that's okay. We hate who we hate. Can't control it. [00:35:11] Speaker B: I support you. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:35:13] Speaker B: I support you both. [00:35:14] Speaker A: Hate is hate. [00:35:16] Speaker C: I can't wait till this episode comes out so I can go comment on your Instagram about it. [00:35:22] Speaker A: What are you going to say? [00:35:23] Speaker C: Nina literally is a basic. Because she is a female dog. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah, true, true. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah, Spike. Spike was like, you know what? Angel's already kind of testy because of everything with Buffy, so I'm not going to say anything more about Nina, but he really does want to call her a bitch. That's why he just. Just. He. He refrained. [00:35:45] Speaker B: I mean, Spike does love to call women bitches. [00:35:48] Speaker A: His song speaking and Filthy Harlot and. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Or what? [00:35:52] Speaker A: What was it? [00:35:53] Speaker B: A cow. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Stupid cow. [00:35:55] Speaker C: I. I was quite. I was quite surprised by that when I was doing the rewatch, because it. I mean, in some ways, it felt out of place, but in other ways, it was like. It was totally. It was very Spike. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:07] Speaker C: For a moment, I was waiting on the. Like, he's gonna say she's asking for it because of, like, how she's dressed or whatever. [00:36:13] Speaker A: He basically did. [00:36:14] Speaker B: He does. [00:36:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Luckily, I mean, it didn't go quite that far, but he was like, why are you wearing those stupid heels? Like, take two steps and break your neck. Yeah, they definitely give Spike a bit of, like, a gay edge. Like, he's definitely got, like, this kind of bitchy, camp queen edge in this season. And I don't know if, like, Angel's, like, super macho act kind of brings. That obviously brings that out of him, but it's. It's quite. It's kind of fun to see, except when it gets, like, really misogynistic. [00:36:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Spike being Spike. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that we talked about it in that episode, but I think season five really just kind of shows Spike for who he's always been, but just with a less veneered look. And they kind of have to do that in order to move forward with his arc. I feel like season seven, they sugarcoated a lot of his stuff a little bit too much. Like, everything with the. The coat and stuff. And how. How everything bad that. That represents. And by having the coat even being destroyed in this episode and stuff, was them kind of going, yeah, he does need to move past that whole thing, you know? So. [00:37:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:20] Speaker A: All right. So then that's when Spike's like, does Fido know her boyfriend's flying halfway around the world to visit his ex? Excellent question. Angel's like, look, I was gonna call her, and we're just hanging out. She's not my girlfriend. I was like, wow, Nina's getting sidelined in a hurry. [00:37:34] Speaker B: I. [00:37:34] Speaker A: This feels a lot like chosen. When angel comes back into town and accuses Buffy of Spike being her boyfriend, she's like, he's not my boyfriend, but he is in my heart. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Okay, but that was true. He wasn't her boyfriend. [00:37:47] Speaker C: But that's what you say when you get, like, caught, like, two timing your boyfriend with someone that you've got feelings for. [00:37:54] Speaker A: It's just a pattern for how fast Buffy and Angel sideline their side thing. Whenever the other one comes into town, they're like, oh, it's not serious. [00:38:03] Speaker B: But now I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, so, have Angel. Nina, only gotten breakfast? Like, has that been their only date? Or are they, like, hanging out all the time? Because I feel like he's too busy for that. [00:38:14] Speaker A: We have not seen Nina since the puppet show. Yeah, I would imagine he wouldn't have a lot of time for her, given all the stuff with Fred and Gun and Lindsay. [00:38:24] Speaker B: That's true. You know, she still has to come in once a month, though, so maybe that's when they hang out once a month when she comes to turn into a werewolf. [00:38:33] Speaker A: That's definitely just hanging out then, at that point. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:37] Speaker A: And then Angel's like, it doesn't concern you, Spike. Spike's like, I just want to see you happy. Well, not too happy, because then I'd have to stake. Yeah. Second thought, have at it. Angel's like, this isn't about us. And he's like, you and Nina. Angel says, you and me. This is a dangerous mission. That's only going to get worse if we don't put aside our differences. Look, we have to work together on this to stop the Immortal and save Buffy. Oh, and pick up that demon body thingy. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Partners. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Then Angels, like, just like old times. So then we cut to. This is when they're at, like, drinking and all that stuff. And they're like, oh, I can't really get drunk off these things. But then they become, like, strangely, like, reminiscent. And I was like, are you sure you weren't drunk? [00:39:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker A: At least buzzed a little bit. And then Spike says, how did you know Buffy was in trouble? And we find out that angel has been sent spying on her and just trying to make sure that she's all right. And he says he's not proud of it, but it's Buffy. And Spike's like, well, how many you got on her? And Angel's like, just the one. But he got spotted. And he called me from the hospital after he regained consciousness. [00:39:41] Speaker B: That's right. Also, can I just say, how hypocritical of Spike to, like, judge angel for this when this man has done even worse. Like, let's be honest, you're both low key kind of stalkers. But Spike is definitely more of a. At least he was more of like a. What's the word I'm looking for? He was stalking with the intention to harm. [00:40:07] Speaker A: I was gonna say stocking with the intent. With bad intentions, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:13] Speaker C: I kind of like the. The building kind of insecurity that obviously angel and Spike have, because it's like. Because they both know that Buffy doesn't. Buffy doesn't need either of them. [00:40:25] Speaker B: They know. [00:40:26] Speaker C: So it's like watching them try to convince themselves that, like, it's almost like they need Buffy to, like, feel relevant. [00:40:33] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker C: Which is maybe a bigger comment on the angel ending also, you know, and the need to maybe include. Include that. Which I don't necessarily think is true, but it's like, I almost wish that, like, the. The chosen cookies conversation had never happened because angel is just having him reference it, like, you know, so many times as being like, this is the end game. It just feels like. [00:40:57] Speaker B: But they never give it to you. [00:40:58] Speaker C: Really allow any of them to be free. Which I guess is maybe kind of the point, because if Buffy has said that to angel, then there's no real need for Spike to still kind of hang on everything. But then. But then why is Buffy also. Then I guess we found out later, obviously, like, getting on with their life. [00:41:15] Speaker B: I think for me, the cookie dough speech was more so about. I don't think it was like her telling angel that they're going to be together someday. I think it was leaving the door open. But the more, like, I took it more as like, Buffy has realized that she doesn't need to be in a relationship to feel valid and that she has to Live her life. Like, that's what I. That's what I saw. And I think, you know, her calling angel back and being like. I do sometimes think that far ahead. I think it's just. It's just, like a nod to, like, leaving the door open for them. And I think for angel, he's lost so much in the last two seasons. And seeing Buffy at the end of season four, I think that was kind of, like, the last thing that he was holding onto in terms of, like, hope that maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And I think that's why he clings to that so much here, where it seems like he's been, like, you know, I've been waiting patiently and whatever. She's cookie dough. But I think even him sending somebody to watch her, I think when he learned that, like, when Andrew told him that Buffy no longer trusts him, I think that also was kind of making him feel insecure about this, like, one last thing that he was hoping would happen. And that kind of, in my mind, explains a lot of Angel's behavior in this episode. So I do kind of, like. I like the claquito speech for Buffy. And I don't think it necessarily means that her and angel are gonna end up together. I think it just means that, like, the door is left open and angel has now clung to this last piece of hope because he's already lost so much. But what this episode is trying to say is, like, that might still happen. You might still end up together. But in the meantime, she's living her life like she said she would be, and, like, dating other people and figuring who she. Figuring out who she is and having fun. And, like, you need to do the same. You need to live your life. If somewhere down the line you meet again and it works out, then that's fine. You know, like. [00:43:18] Speaker C: Like, if a girl has told you she doesn't trust you anymore, and then she puts one of your spies in the hospital, and then you still are jumping on a plane to go and, like, protect her. I'm like, yeah, take the hint. But then also, I think, because I watched the season, like, in quite rapid succession, I'm like, okay. So then Cordelia came back, and we got that glimpse of, like, what they would have had. And then Angel's also been shagging Nina. And then now he's, like, going on. It's like, angel could do with giving himself a cookie dough speech. Just allow himself. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:47] Speaker B: And I think that's what this episode is trying to say is, like, angel, you need to. You're also cookie dough, and you need to just live your life. In the meantime, you can still have that hope that maybe in the future it could happen, but the future is not now. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Agreed. Agreed. All right. So then Angel's like, remember the last time we were in Italy? And Spike's like. Like, it was yesterday. And I think this might be my single favorite, like, flashback moment. It was. Is so funny. So we have Rome, Italy. We're like an upscale nightclub. Spike stands there with his arm around Drusilla, Both dressed like mod hipsters. They stare at other patrons who stare back at them with equal disdain. Everyone is too cool for words, at least in their own minds. He's like, ciao. Someone's like, ciao. Drusilla's like, ciao, ciao, ciao. Like, like, what made Drew go back to her goth vamp look after this? Like, it's such a, like, drastic change. Spike's brown hair, which is so obviously a wig. Like, you can see the edges up close. His sunglasses kill me. I love that he kept his hair dark after the submarine. So he did the submarine, and then he did this. So funny. So then Angel's like, wait a minute. I wasn't in Italy in the 50s. And Spike's like, oh, right, Guess you weren't. You really missed out. And then we find out that they both were there back in 1894. Cut to a medieval dungeon. Spike and Angelus are stripped to their underclothes and hang unconscious by their arms from steel manacles. And he. Angela's like, oh. He's like, William. And he, like, knocks into Spike. And I love how Spike was like, oh, bloody hell. But he, like, barely moves. [00:45:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:29] Speaker A: And then they're like, oh, that bastard. The immortal thinks he can do this to us. Who does he think he's dealing with? He's about to find out. And they both, like, like, pull on their manacles and, like, nothing happens. He's going to curse the day he ever crossed purpose with Angelus and William the Bloody. And you could tell. It's like, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Like, they both have a common, common enemy. And Spike's like, we'll see just how immortal he is when we're done with him. And then Angela's like, we'll cover him up like Sunday roast and make him watch as we feast on his steaming flesh and draw swings open. They're so dramatic. [00:46:00] Speaker B: So stupid, so dramatic. [00:46:01] Speaker A: This guy comes in human with, like, fine clothes, and he's got two lackeys with crossbows. And jealous is like your master sent you to do his dirty work. He's like, well, you know, save a spot for him next to the fire in the mangy dung licking. And then Mario just grabs his gloves and goes and slaps it jealous across the face and just like over the top there, isn't it? [00:46:25] Speaker C: And Angel's accent is actually. Is actually good. No. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Is it? Yeah. [00:46:31] Speaker C: I was pretty impressed by it. I feel like he's definitely, like, he's. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Obviously comfortable doing it five seasons later or, sorry, eight seasons later. [00:46:41] Speaker C: But it's a. It's a hard accent to do because even like, yeah, I mean, I'm northern, I'm northern Irish, but I can't really do a southern accent without sounding the way probably Angela's sounded like in season. [00:46:53] Speaker B: One, in early season. [00:46:55] Speaker C: A bit over the top, don't you think? [00:46:59] Speaker B: Well, that's good to know that he's improved. Oh, brother. [00:47:05] Speaker A: I feel like he's not doing it with every single word anymore. Not thinking so hard about it. I feel like he's slipping into it with certain words and then some sentences and others so that it's not constant, so we don't hear it as often. And it allows him to pick the words that he can do it to the best. [00:47:24] Speaker C: But yeah, yeah, he's got. He's got the tone down, like the kind of sing songy tone, which I think makes it like. Which makes the whole thing easier to like, accept rather than trying to think of the Irish way to say each word. [00:47:36] Speaker A: Yeah, true. [00:47:37] Speaker C: In the sense. [00:47:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe he's just not. He's like. He's relaxed. Right. Like, I feel like every time we've read a quote from David Boreanas about doing the accent, he sounds like, very anxious about it. So maybe in this episode he's like, what do I fucking have to lose? This is the third last episode of the show. Like, let me just. Just have fun with it. And maybe that's why it works so well because he's just kind of like, meh. [00:47:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:59] Speaker C: The thing that kind of like frustrated me about this scene is that angel doesn't have a shirt off, but. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Because. [00:48:06] Speaker C: I'm loving how kind of buff David has got this season. So I'm like, daddy, take that shirt off. No. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Oh my God. [00:48:14] Speaker A: I know, right? [00:48:15] Speaker B: I was disappointed too. [00:48:16] Speaker A: Great moment for both of them to be shirtless. [00:48:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Obviously they showed us their, like, hairless calves, but they couldn't show us his chest. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Hairless calf. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Yeah. David Boreanas is surprisingly hairless. It's. [00:48:30] Speaker B: It's actually like a seal. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:32] Speaker C: Smooth like a dolphin. [00:48:34] Speaker A: I was thinking about. I don't know, Tony, if you've seen thunderbolts with, like, the. The clip at the very end where what's his name comes out the red. I was the father. What's his name? Hopper from Stranger Things. [00:48:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:48:51] Speaker B: You know who I'm talking about. [00:48:52] Speaker A: Comes out and he's like, you want to try on my new jackets? It's like, bottom of baby seal. And Killen is like, I don't want to touch baby seal. But that's what's running me. [00:49:01] Speaker C: I haven't seen. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm. I'm looking forward to it. [00:49:04] Speaker A: You should. It's really, really good. My kids cracked up at that moment. That's why it stuck in my memory. So then Mario, guess that's his name, takes out a key and unhooks them. It's like his benevolence. The IMM wishes to convey his regrets at having detained you, but your recent actions against his concerns merited stiff reprimand spikes like his concerned. Angela's like, this is our city. We were here first. Starts peeing all over the walls. Mari is like, no, actually, he was here 300 years ago, and now he's back. You will leave this city tonight and never return under penalty of death. So swift. And then Angelus just whips out and just, like, snaps his neck in the blink of an eye. And he's like, go ahead, take your best shot. I'll snatch your little wee sticks out of the air and spend the next fortnight shoving them slowly up your arse. The men share a glance, then run off. Spike's like, can you really do that? Angela's like, that arrow thing, I don't know. Never tried. Oh, look what he did to my shirt. Look. Me shirt. This is me shirt. This is me only shirt. Yeah, me favorite shirt. [00:50:02] Speaker B: Me only shirt. [00:50:04] Speaker A: I got flashbacks to Kendra. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Me too. [00:50:07] Speaker C: Did you, too? She said it more Irish than him. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Yeah, she kind of did. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Except she was supposed to be, like, Jamaican. Like. [00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah, from Kenya or something. [00:50:21] Speaker C: If you want a good. If you want a good laugh, go and listen to our episodes on what's My Line? Part one and two. Because I adopt a Kendra voice for all of her. All of her quotes. [00:50:33] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:50:35] Speaker A: Poor Bianca. [00:50:35] Speaker B: I'll definitely have to check it out. Seriously. [00:50:37] Speaker C: But I actually loved Angel's. Angel said the wee thing about, I'll grab your wee sticks out of the air, because then, obviously, we do see him do that whenever Faith tries to shoot him with the crossbow, and he turns around and gets him. So I think that was kind of a cool wee. [00:50:53] Speaker A: He just got cooler and cooler as time went on when he got out of the Immortal Shadow. So then Angelus is like, all right, there's going to be a reckoning. After a good meal and a long rest in the arms of Bam, Darla and Spike and Angelus enter their home to find Darla just sprawled naked and unconscious across it. I love how they're like, oh, no, she's dead. And she's, like, got a smile on her face. [00:51:17] Speaker B: She's glowing. [00:51:18] Speaker A: What have they done to her? So then back in Wolfram and Hart, we've Illyria walking through the atrium, like, kind of running her hands along the plants. And Lauren and Wesley are watching her. And Illyria's like, I can no longer hear the Song of the Green. And Lauren's like, you think that includes me? [00:51:36] Speaker C: I love that. But I also thought it was so sad because it was like. Because I love that they kept dropping in. There's jokes about her, like, mind melding with, like, a potted plant or whatever. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:45] Speaker C: So I love the idea that that was one of powers that she could, like, talk to, like, the plants. And it just seemed like it was such an epic, I think, way of, like, putting in such a small, sad moment. Like, be like, I can no longer hear the Song of the Green. [00:51:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:59] Speaker B: It's just quiet now for her. She just can't hear anything. [00:52:02] Speaker A: That is really, really sad. [00:52:03] Speaker B: She just has to, like, live with her thoughts. How fucking mortifying. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Yeah, well, she's becoming more and more human, I guess, as time goes on. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Yikes. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Which, again, with the messaging of this episode, having to move forward, you can't keep going back. Like, Illyria needs to move forward in her life. But it's interesting how she chooses to kind of go about that and what she wants to explore now that she can no longer rely on her powers. [00:52:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:28] Speaker A: So then we get a little review from Wesley about what happened last episode, about how Illyria's powers have been kind of taken away from her in a lot of ways. And then Illyria says, this is a fate worse than death. How could she function with such limitations? Lauren's like, have you ever tried a sea breeze? Like, trying to find something to lure her back? And then Illyria's, you know, glares at him, and he's, like, terrified. She says, you attempt amusement at the expense of your better. And Wesley's like, Hang on. How about you go take a nice nap, go get a drink, go lay down with your plants. She's like, I do not bend to your wishes. This is like talking to a toddler. My gosh. And then Wesley's like, I'm not asking to you, too. I'm merely suggesting that more tests might lead to knowledge of how to help you function. Lauren's, like, behind Wesley, nodding, like, this seems like a really good idea. And then she just, like, glares at him and she's like, like, fine, I'll go. Because it suits me. The same argument with my kids. [00:53:22] Speaker C: I love the way that the. I just love the change, I think, in how the. The way that they've written her lines, because I love that kind of petulant, kind of child vibe. It's so funny how, like, adults with par speak really like children with no par. [00:53:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's true. Well, and it's also like. Like, she's becoming increasingly human in the way that she's responding to things, which has been really fascinating because there was just like. Even her movements are becoming less jerky. Like, initially she was very insect, like, moved her head around. And that still happens a bit. But now we're starting to see her blink a little bit as she thinks through human emotions. I think we were talking about this in Origin. I watched her from the moment that she appeared in a hole in the world up until Origin. She didn't blink once. And then the moment when Wesley asks if Fred's memories are. If he can. If she can access Fred's memories, Illyria blinks. And it's because she's trying to access the human emotions. And so we're watching as Amy Acker is having Illyria slowly starting to blink a little bit more and starting to become less jerky as Illyria is becoming more human. And it's just interesting. [00:54:33] Speaker C: It's such a shame that we didn't get another season just because. Kind of like reading a bit online of, like, what the plans would have been just would have been so good. I mean, obviously, as a comics fan, like, I loved what they did with Illyria, and I. I love the. I'm sure you can't put this in, but, like, I loved it after the fall. I thought that would have been so good on tv. It's like fucking Joss Whedon. He always just shoots himself in the foot. Did you talk about, like, the cancellation yet? [00:55:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we did. [00:55:06] Speaker C: And how he. Because he was basically pushing. He was pushing the exec for an answer sooner, rather than later. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Yes. Although I don't fully blame him for that. Like, we talked about how it was, the network had a history of not letting the actors and the cast, like the cast and the crew know about the continuation for the next season until it was too late for the actors and the crew to find jobs elsewhere. And so oftentimes they were having to miss out on jobs, not knowing if their jobs was secured on angel for the next year. And so Joss was trying to push the network to give them an answer sooner. [00:55:42] Speaker C: I could just imagine Joss Whedon, based on how he is and how he talks and how probably annoying he is, was just absolutely the worst. I think that's probably the thing that is, like, also horrific is that knowing that this season was doing well. And that's the thing. Like, even. Even without Cordelia, like, going into season five, I was like, I didn't miss her as much as what I thought I would have. So it's like, it did show that it didn't need, which is a real shame, because obviously she's such a heart of the show. But they had definitely pivoted at least so far away from what we expected. That was interesting. So it would have been great to have seen another season of this kind of post apocalyptic wasteland kind of thing. And I'd love to have seen Cordelia the Dragon, like, the comics. [00:56:31] Speaker B: I think I read somewhere that it was a quote by Joss Whedon where he talks about how season six, he used a lot of the, like, sorry, the season six comics. Like, the, like, afterwards, immediately after. Not fade away, which I think would be after the fall. I think he said that they used a lot of the stuff, like some of the things that they were planning on doing in season six. But he said not all of them like it. It's not quite what season six would be, obviously, because the medium of comics allows for, like, yeah, you to do stuff that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise on tv. But he did say that some of the stuff that they were going to do ended up happening in after the fall. The thing, I mean, we've been talking about this for a few weeks now since Illyria. But the thing that I would have loved to see so much is just, like, a better ending to Fred's story with her being able to share a body with Illyria and kind of having equal, like, agency and having that, like, duality between the two of them. I think that would have been really cool to see. And then I think Gun was supposed to be turned into a vampire. There was, like, a bunch of stuff that I think this season sets up so well. And we were talking about this even. I don't know, I think it was in shells or maybe the last episode that we recorded. I don't even remember anymore. But I was saying how Buffy ending at season seven felt like a good time to stop. Like, I don't think Buffy had any more seasons out of it. Like, I just can't imagine what else they would have done. But I feel like angel went through kind of a slump. I would say in season, at least for me, I would say in season three and four, the show is just, like, not as good as, like, I would hope for it to be. Like, if I were to be watching the show by myself, I would probably stop watching it season three. But then you have season five. That's so good. And I feel that angel gets so good again in season five that, like, a season six just feels natural. And it's definitely a shame that we never got to see a season six on tv because I think it definitely needed it for a lot of these storylines. [00:58:38] Speaker A: So, yeah, so it's like, it's hard because it's. You want it to continue. And it's hard because I understand why Josh Joss pushed for it, but I also know that, like, I wonder, what no one asks, no one talks about, is, how did Joss push for it? Was Joss pushing in a way that was kind of disrespectful, in a way that was already straining the very strained relationship between him and the network because, you know, Buffy had moved to another network, and they were salty about that. And so it's like, was there maybe. Could there have been a better way that he went about it? All that stuff. I don't know. But, yeah, it's such a. It's such a shame all around, because there was a lot. And I think this episode is the first episode that I very clearly see the writers being like, we have to wrap things up because we're about to end. And so the switching back and forth of Fred having her parents come in is. You can tell them giving that storyline that they wanted to do in season six of having the switch between Fred and Illyria, because you see Amy Acker getting to, like, literally morph from character to character. And you could tell they really wanted to do that for an entire season and had to smush it into this episode, which was kind of cool, honestly. But, yeah. All right. So Illyria is still talking about. Or Illyria takes Off because she's, you know, frustrated. And then Wesley's like, she's overcompensating posturing. He says her powers are weakened. She's still unpredictable. We have to be careful not to agitate her. And then the Burkles show up, and they're like, oh, my gosh. We decided to surprise Fred. We're on our way to Hawaii. Like, they're just the sweetest people ever. And they're like, we thought we'd surprise her. Wesley's like, okay, step into my office. And we're like, oh, this is just not gonna be good no matter what happens. [01:00:23] Speaker B: So sad that they never find out that their daughter is literally dead. [01:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah. But I'm also kind of glad that they just seem happy and living her dream. [01:00:32] Speaker B: I know, but it's like. Like, that's her parents. Like, they should know. Just makes me sad. [01:00:38] Speaker C: That's one of the things I find really fascinating, I think, a lot of times in, like, Buffy and Angel is that the. The idea of protecting someone from grief seems like a. Like a service. And instead, it kind of takes away, like, the will of the person, I think, to be able to grieve. And. And that's one of the things I loved, kind of, with this storyline was kind of. Obviously, we know, by them not knowing the truth. It's probably better for them, but the idea of not allowing them to have, I guess, that kind of choice. [01:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:15] Speaker C: In many ways feels like. Yeah. It's just very kind of deeper, nuanced kind of thing. I thought it was this whole. This whole part with Fred and her parents was so sad. [01:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:29] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it kind of goes into the whole, you know, in origin, when Wesley's memories are returned to him. And he talks about it being, like, merciful that he didn't have those memories. But at the same time, he talks about how, like, now that he knows. Like, it's important that he knows because it makes him. Yeah. He's more himself who you are. Yeah. It makes him who he is. And it's very true. Like, I think both things can be true at the same time. Like, it can be merciful, but at the same time, are you really who you are if you don't have all those memories? If you don't have all the information. [01:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:06] Speaker A: So now we're at Buffy's apartment. Angel and Spike are like, all right. Angel's like, let me handle this. Spike's like, I'd bet you'd like to. The door opens. It's Andrew. And he's Kind of like in his pajamas, Kind of disheveled, you know. Classic Andrew. What we would think of. He's like, oh, my gosh. And he, like, gives Andrew Spike a hug. He's like, what are you doing here? He's like, buffy and Don are letting me crash. My house was incinerated when that thing happened. He's like, oh, just cultural misunderstanding. Let us speak of more pleasant times. He's like, I part my threshold. I mean, my apartment, obviously. [01:02:38] Speaker B: It's not your apartment, Andrew. You're just staying there. [01:02:42] Speaker A: And then he stands back, gestures for them to enter. And both the guys try to enter at the same time. Get stuck. And Andrew is, like, trying to quickly, like, clean up the place. Kicking burger wrappers and stuff, like, underneath the couch and everything. And he's like, I had plans later this evening, but I could change them. Like, I could show you Rome at night. Anywhere you want to go. Anything you want to see. In unison. They're both like, buffy. He was right. Yeah. [01:03:05] Speaker B: I don't blame them. Honestly. If I was in Rome and Buffy's apartment, I. I, too, would just want to see Buffy. [01:03:11] Speaker A: Poor Andrew's, like, thinking, oh, my friends are here. Guys want to come hang out? Okay. Well, all right. Never mind. I guess I won't change my plan. So then he tells them that Buffy went to go meet the Immortal and that they just missed her. And that most evenings they never leave the house. They just curl up on the couch and snuggle. And angel and Spike are in shock. They're like. They're snuggling. And Spike looks at Angel. He's like, it's worse. And then we cut to the flashback. Back in 1894. Angels is like, darla, Darla, what have they done? [01:03:43] Speaker B: She just like. [01:03:45] Speaker A: And she's like, like, what? You're back? And he's like, I climbed my way from the depths of hell to lay by your side. And then he kisses her. He recoils and is like, he's tasted you. Spike's like, who? And Angela's like, who do you think? And Spike's like, oh, that cheeky bastard had us tossed. Then violates your woman. [01:04:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:04:04] Speaker B: I love how offended Spike is on Angel's behalf. Or Angelis's behalf this entire episode. He's like, the nuns are his thing. [01:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah, his. [01:04:13] Speaker B: You violated his woman. [01:04:16] Speaker A: My, I love when Juice. Or, yeah, Drusilla walks in. And I've never heard Spike. [01:04:20] Speaker B: He's like. [01:04:21] Speaker A: He's high pitched. [01:04:24] Speaker C: Time for another pony ride. [01:04:30] Speaker A: So Darla's talking about how like, amazing. It was. She's like, he's not some common vampire. He's. I don't know what he is. A giant, a titan, straddling good and evil, serving no master, but his own concern. Considerable desires. And she's like. And spiritual. Did you know he spent 150 years in a Tibetian monastery? And I was like, is that why angel went to that monastery after Buffy's death in season three? [01:04:52] Speaker B: Oh. [01:04:52] Speaker A: Like, try to be like the Immortal. [01:04:54] Speaker B: The Immortal. He was just looking for some peace and quiet, Sarah. [01:04:59] Speaker A: Angel's like, he's my arch nemesis. And Darla's like, oh, darling, it was just fornication. Really great fornication. And Spike's like, she's glowing, mate. Angela doesn't even look at her. And he's like, she isn't Spike. [01:05:11] Speaker C: Darla's like, I am a little bit. [01:05:14] Speaker B: That's the thing, though, with Angelus in this flashback, I just feel like Angelus isn't Like, he was never shown to be jealous, right? Like, Darla and Angelus were never depicted as being jealous, like, over the other. [01:05:29] Speaker A: I feel like it's not what it means. It's to, like, Angelus has to be, like, the big dog on the block. [01:05:35] Speaker B: He always has the fact that it's the Immortal and not that Darla had fornication with somebody else, but we saw. [01:05:42] Speaker A: This with him intentionally sleeping with Drusilla to get it spiked, to show him that he's the big rooster in the hen house. We see this in season two with him making fun of Spike in the wheelchair and, like, being all over Drusilla and stuff. Like, this is a common thread for him, that he has to be the big guy. So, like, I don't see it as necessarily jealousy because he wants Darla because he loves Darla. It's jealousy because he wants his things to prove that he. He's the big band. [01:06:08] Speaker B: Right, Right, right. Exactly. [01:06:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:06:10] Speaker B: It's all about the Immortal. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Right? It's all about the Immortal. It's all about ego. So then Drusilla comes out. Spike just stares at her, and he's like, son of a. His voice comes so high, and it just. Like the both of you. Darla's like, he's insatiable. Spike's like, drew, you let him touch you. And she, like, closes her eyes and is, like, dancing. He felt like sunshine. [01:06:36] Speaker B: I love how she says sunshine. Like, it doesn't kill her. Like, right? [01:06:42] Speaker A: Angel's like, this is why he had us tossed, so he could violate. Darla's like, he didn't. And, just, like, violate our women. Spy's like, violate in succession. Darla's like, concurrently. [01:06:54] Speaker B: You never let us do that. [01:06:56] Speaker A: They both are, like, about to, like, have a fit of the vapors. [01:07:00] Speaker B: Seriously. They're about to crash out on screen. [01:07:04] Speaker A: Darla's like, come on, Drew, let's have a bath so the boys can weep in private. And Drew's like, will you hold me under the water? [01:07:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Yes. Such a good double entendre. So then they leave. Angelus is like, this is a slight that will not go unmet. Death is too quick. Says Spike. Angela says, not all deaths are quick. Spike's like, what do you have in mind? And Angela, Angelus is like, blood vengeance. Then we, like, go to an opera house, and they're trying to get inside. They're like, blood vengeance. It's under blood vengeance. And the bouncer's like, sorry, stupid. None of this is under. Like, you guys are not allowed in. And Spike's like, maybe it's under Angelus. Bouncer's like, you're not on the immortals list. Meanwhile, they're, like, letting literally everyone in. People are just, like, walking right past them. Yeah. [01:07:49] Speaker B: When he says Angelus, I'm like, his name is probably on the do not enter, do not allow in Liz. [01:07:55] Speaker A: Literally, the bouncer. You are not in here. Piss off. [01:07:59] Speaker C: I kind of like how they also have used, like, the classiness of Italy to, for the first time, make angel and Spike seem not cool or not, like. Well, because anytime we've ever seen them where they're all like, oh, yeah, they're so cool. They. They look amazing. Blah, blah. And then now they just look like these kind of vagabond. [01:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Everyone has dressed really nicely. You know, they look like losers of culture. And they're just, like, sweating and half dressed and disheveled. Yeah. [01:08:31] Speaker B: Loud, violent, boorish. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Very, very American. Yeah. And so then Angela's like. He mocks us at every turn. And then they talk about the nuns. And then they're like, we're the reason men fear the night. This isn't over yet, immortal. This will never be over. Then we're now back in present day, and angel and Spike are waiting at. They're at the Goran demon residence trying to get the capos remains. And you have, like, the demon butler that's standing across, like, the room, pretending not to listen to their conversation the entire time as they talk about how, like, they've been gypped. And, you know, Angel's like, at least I still have a Girlfriend. Spike's like, the Immortal. They're like, come on. They're like, buffy's smarter than that. She'd never fall for a centuries old guy with dark past who may or may not be evil. She must be under some kind of a spell. Then an old demon woman comes in. She drops off the bag that has just the head, apparently. And then she was like, all right, guys, you just need to take this back. After, you know, the Goron demon becomes heavy with age, his head sags, drops off like a ripe fig. And then the rituals are performed. And then like a new body basically just kind of hatches out of it. So she's like, all right, you have to get it back to Los Angeles. Then we cut back to Buffy's apartment. The boys are back, back. Andrew again answers. They're like, is Buffy home yet? Andrew's like, guys, it's only 8:30. They're like, okay, yeah. Do you know where she went? So now we cut to Wesley's office and he's leading Trish and Roger. Like, the talking about is very jarring. But in the episode, they do such a good job of like, taking us to something that's like, heartbreaking and serious and then just complete chaos in Italy. [01:10:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:11] Speaker A: So then Trish and Roger are just like gushing about how amazing everything is and how they were really worried about Fred in the old hotel because it seemed a little run down. But they're like, you know, we respect Fred's choices. She's earned the right to make her own decisions. I was like, geez, these are the most well adjusted parents ever. [01:10:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:32] Speaker A: And then they start to ask about, you know, whether or not her and Wesley are something. Oh yeah, well, no, hang on, I forgot that Fred. Then Fred comes in the room for a reason, I think some reason I thought she was in. So Fred comes into the room and this is not Illyria dressed to look like Fred. This is like she's inhabited Fred completely. Wesley goes completely, like, shell shocked. And she hugs her parents and is like gushing all over them. They're gushing all over her. And we're like, what in the world is happening right now? So now we're in the nightclub and you know it. People are dancing. There's a beat. It's frenetic, it's loud. I was like, oh, we're back to Diablique or over here Oblique, or whatever it is. Leia. [01:11:14] Speaker B: But in Ital. Oh yeah, I love oblique Oblique. Where bad things happen. [01:11:20] Speaker A: Good old days. Miss Oblique. [01:11:23] Speaker B: Where connections form. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Lots of connections. So then Angel's like, dancing. Why'd it have to be dancing? And they go talk to a bartender, like, hey, we're looking for a girl, blonde, American. She's in this person called the Immortal. [01:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah, you missed that. [01:11:38] Speaker C: Buffy does not have blue eyes. [01:11:39] Speaker B: She does not have blue eyes. And angel knows that, Shirley. [01:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah, the writers don't, though. The writers don't. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Idiots. [01:11:49] Speaker A: The bartender's like, oh, yeah, they came in a while ago. And she points over, and we see a blonde girl dancing. We don't see anything other than her hair. [01:11:57] Speaker B: Girl goes dancing. God forbid. [01:12:00] Speaker A: We don't see the Immortal either. We just see the back of him, very cleverly shot. And so then she's like, your friend maybe go a little wild, too. Spike and angel are just. [01:12:10] Speaker B: They look like somebody has, like, shot their puppy. They look so, so sad. Like little puppy dogs. [01:12:17] Speaker A: So then Angel's like, all right, let's go. And Spike's like, no, you hold down the fort. I'll be right back. They start fighting about it. And then they realize, hang on, where's our head? And they look back and they see that sneaky little butler has grabbed the bag and is now heading outside. And they're like, where do you think you're going with our head, Jeeves? And then all of a sudden, a bunch of vampires surround them. And they're like, all right, you're not. He's going anywhere he wants. And then now we have one of the funniest scenes ever. There's a slow motion ballet of violence. It's all slow motion to the Take Me in youn Arms by Dean Martin, which was adapted by a famous Italian love song entitled Torna Es Oriento. And the lyrics go. Once upon a lovely time Many million dreams ago Once there was a man in love, dear Many million dreams ago Once he thought he had a sweetheart Then he broke the golden rule Never take your love for granted Wise men often play the fool now he'd like to say I'm sorry Can't you see within his heart without you there's no tomorrow why should true love have to part? Very appropriate. So then the guys are just fighting. And then Spike is just, like, lost in the bloodlust. And he's, like, killed everyone. He can't. He just turns around and just wallops angel in the face. And then watching their expressions in slow motion, angel looks so offended. And then he just goes after Spike as well. And the high tickets were killing me. It was so funny. [01:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it was so funny. [01:13:48] Speaker A: And then it speeds up and Angel's like, what the hell are you doing? Spike's like, I was confused. He's, like, overstimulated. He's like, you got very loud in here. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:56] Speaker A: They're like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. We shouldn't be fighting each other. Where's the little guy? They turn around, they see the butler does it. Isn't he, like, flip them off? Is that what that gesture is? [01:14:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. He does like, the little Italian. [01:14:07] Speaker A: So funny. I was dying. It was just. It was very. Was it from friends between Monica and, like. Yeah. What's his name? [01:14:17] Speaker C: Yeah. Because Joe. Yeah. When they do the. The arm thing. [01:14:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:21] Speaker C: After Joey teaches them the vancoulo thing. [01:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:25] Speaker B: So funny. [01:14:26] Speaker C: Those Italian demons, like, shout out to those Italian. Especially, like the. The woman one that we saw previously when they were getting the head. [01:14:34] Speaker B: Yes. [01:14:35] Speaker C: Because I just felt like. Like. Yeah. The design and everything of them was so good. They just. For some reason, they just felt so, like. And looked so Italian. [01:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah, they did. [01:14:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:46] Speaker C: She's like. Their head, it get ripe like fig and fall off. [01:14:50] Speaker B: Like a Nona. She was like a Nona. [01:14:53] Speaker C: Yeah. And I love that kind of like the play on words with, like, the head. The head of the family. And it's so. It's literally like, there. [01:15:01] Speaker B: It's a head. [01:15:02] Speaker C: I thought it was. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:04] Speaker C: Did we. Have we missed the part or have we got to the part yet where. When angel and Spike go on the dance floor to go over to Buffy and Angel says, like, ours is a forever love. [01:15:15] Speaker B: And Spike says, oh, yeah, I had a relationship with her too. No, you didn't. [01:15:21] Speaker A: Forever love. I had a relationship too. Oh, yeah. Sleeping together is not a relationship. It is if you do it enough. [01:15:25] Speaker C: Times, as Spike says. Yeah, it is. If you do it enough times. [01:15:30] Speaker A: Again. And it's been really fun. Leia and I've talked a lot about how anytime there's an episode where you have angel and Spike kind of arguing about something or they're fighting against each other, how you get to kind of see how there's a commonality that they have, but they both go about it different ways. And that's happened so many times this episode, like with the astronauts in the Cavemen. But then everything in damage and how you have angel, who's over there with more cerebral way of going about things. And then Spike is just impulsive. But at the end of the day, they both end up either struggling with the same thing or coming to the same conclusions. And it's very interesting how the show is continuing to do that even here. How? Both of them had a relationship with Buffy. It was very different. But at the end of the day, like, it's like their desire for her is still stemming from the same insecurities. And I find that very fascinating. Yeah. So they head outside the nightclub and they're like. Can't find them. All of a sudden, an engine revs, and they're almost run down by a car. And they're like, hey, that's our car. He's got our car. And Spike jumps onto the Vespa motor scooter. This is so Roman Holiday. He's like, hop on, little mama. Angel's like, I'm not riding in the back. This reminded me of. What's that one episode where Angel's car gets taken and Cordelia has to go with gun to, like. [01:16:48] Speaker C: Oh, and he used to wear the pink. Used to wear the pink helmet, like on Wesley's motorbike. [01:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. What episode is that? [01:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, what's it called? I can't remember. It was the Cordelia one. [01:16:59] Speaker B: I think it was Starting Gifts. [01:17:01] Speaker A: No, it's not parting gifts. Now. I can't remember. [01:17:04] Speaker C: Is it the one where she has the vision about Gun getting killed by that demon? [01:17:07] Speaker B: First impressions? [01:17:08] Speaker A: First impressions? Yeah. [01:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that one, Season two. It's like episode three or something. [01:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I love that episode. Angel with the, like, hot pink helmet as he's riding behind, so angry. So now they're riding their tiny scooter. They're trying to managing somehow to keep up with the same sports car. I'm pretty sure where this was filmed, it's the same set for all of the flashback scenes, like in downtown Dublin or when they're doing, like, with a lot of the whirlwind scenes. Because the cobblestones and stuff. [01:17:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:46] Speaker A: They're just beat bopping along. Spike's like, stop holding on so tight. Angel's like, go fast. Punch it. Let go of me. Turn left. Stop, speed up, whatever. Anyway, they end up going down an alley. End up getting hit by the car. They fall down, the car takes off. Angel's screaming in frustration. He's like, we had one job. Hang on to the head. That's it. Spike's like, you were right there, too. Angel's like, I wasn't in charge of the head. Spike's like, well, it's gone now, isn't it? Are you gonna stand there in the strata yelling at me all night? Angel's like, did you just say strata? Spike's like, it means street. Angel's like, Yeah, I know what it means. I was like, oh. Either Spike's been lying or he's been reading the book. [01:18:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:25] Speaker A: So then they're like, hang on. Like, we need to find that guy. Get the head back. We need to get the hell out of here. So they go back to the bartender. They're like, have you seen the girl? And she's like, no, she just left. And she's like, I'll pour you some wine. Angel's like, he's got her, Spike. He's got Buffy. Why is this always happening to us? Spike's like, it's him and the Immortal. This is what he does. Every time he shows up, I either lose my girl, get beaten by an angry mob, or get thrown in prison for tax evasion. Long story. [01:18:54] Speaker B: It also makes so much sense. [01:18:56] Speaker A: 100. 100. [01:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:59] Speaker A: So then they're like, all right, if this was la, we'd have them hog tied by now. Spikes like, hang on. Doesn't Wolfram and Hart have an office here in Rome? Cut to Wolfram and Hart office, which looks exactly like the LA office. There's just demons and humans walking the hall, speaking Italian. And then we meet, meets Ilana. Beautiful brunette woman, great tits. Just walks right into the room. [01:19:23] Speaker C: Ilana. I love her. [01:19:26] Speaker A: She's so fun. [01:19:28] Speaker C: She's like, I give you the world. I give you two worlds. That's how we do here. [01:19:33] Speaker A: There's a lot of accents in this episode. I was like, tony's gonna be thriving. [01:19:37] Speaker C: I love it. [01:19:38] Speaker A: She's like, you're the very meaning of handsome. You take my breath away. I have no breath. And then she's like, yeah, so Crip. Okay, so the actress, I looked her up. Her name is Carol Davis. She grew up in England, Scotland, Hawaii, France, Italy and Thailand, and moved to New York City as a teenager. And then she majored in Chinese studies and political science. And then after university, she attended two year program at Lee Strasberg Theater and modeled for Playboy magazine, was Pet of the month in 1980 under the name Tamara, and Pet of the Year, runner up for penthouse magazine in 1981. Then during that time, she sang in nightclubs and was a lingerie and bathing suit model, which as she should for like, Playtex bras. And she modeled for hundreds of covers for romance novels, as well as appearing and singing for commercials for Pepsi and Miller Beer. Then she became a singer, songwriter and recording artist, was signed on to Warner Brothers. She has a record called Heart of Gold, was produced by NOW Rogers. Her single Serious Money was a dance hit and the video was number one on bet. And then she toured Europe and Asia and performed in clubs throughout the United States and wrote the song Slow Love for Prince on his Grammy Award winning album, Sign O of the Times or Sign of the Times. She recorded her own version of the song for Warner Brothers Records and then left Warner Brothers and moved to Atlantic Records and then self produced and wrote an album called I'm no Angel. She's also a writer, has written scripts, books, and then has also became an investigative journalist for American Dog magazine and wrote articles about pet mills and animal cruelty. And she leads the anti pup puppy pet mill movement in la. [01:21:17] Speaker C: My God, that is so cool. [01:21:19] Speaker A: I know. And she's famous. [01:21:24] Speaker B: Seriously. [01:21:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:25] Speaker B: Isn't that crazy? I love how all of these, like, one off characters are always actors who have accomplished so much. [01:21:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:32] Speaker B: Like all of them, they just have the most interesting backstories, and I just, like, love that. [01:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Tony, if you haven't, you should go listen to our recap of Destiny and listen to the part. I mean, you can listen the whole thing, but the section in particular that we talk about the actor who plays Wesley's dad and his history. [01:21:51] Speaker B: Destiny. [01:21:53] Speaker A: I said, oh, damage destiny, not damage. [01:21:56] Speaker B: Lineage. [01:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Lineage. Yeah, go listen to Lineage. And the actor who plays Wesley's dad. Insane man, by the time he was like, 30, had already lived, like 15 lives. Like prisoner of War, like, all that stuff. Yeah, it's insane. [01:22:13] Speaker C: That's what you guys are gonna be like whenever I'm on the new Buffy show. And you're like, tony, he had this podcast and he was in a movie when he was a kid with Richard. [01:22:24] Speaker B: When you're cast as Buffy's new love interest. [01:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go, go. Better update your IMDb now, because, you know, I'll be going on reading it. I'll be like, so this is Tony. [01:22:33] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [01:22:34] Speaker C: It's like he's a homoerotic photographer. [01:22:39] Speaker A: Known as. What is Llama Llama or whatever. [01:22:43] Speaker C: Big Bad Llama. [01:22:44] Speaker A: Big Bad Llama. Llama Llama is a kid's book. [01:22:46] Speaker C: I'm gonna ask them to credit me as, like, Big Bad Llama. Just like with Indigo. [01:22:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:50] Speaker C: In season seven. [01:22:51] Speaker A: Perfect. It's your trademark. [01:22:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah. But anyway, I love looking at some of these characters that pop in and seeing, like, their. Their histories, because sometimes it's so fascinating. But yeah. All right, so Ilana's just like, oh, my gosh. Like, she talks about the Angel's backstory with the Romani people. She's like, we spit on. We shall speak of Them no more. And, like. And then she talks about how she's the CEO. She's can give them whatever they want. She's like, let's go into our office and talk like adults. So she has a little, like, secretary who's basically, like, the male version of Harmony, who's, like, jumps at her commands. Lighting. [01:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:31] Speaker A: So back in Wolfram and Heart, Illyria is still acting as Fred. She leads Roger and Trish on a tour of the lab. Wesley's following just, like, acting so suspicious. I don't know how Roger and Trish didn't know something was up. They talk about how they really love it here. Everything. Buddy is so friendly. And they are like, so, you know, Wesley, do you have a young lady in your life? They're like, can we ask? Because, you know, there's a perfect gentleman hiding in plain sight when our, you know, single daughters right here. [01:24:00] Speaker B: Oh, brother. [01:24:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then the. Roger is, like, trying to get Trish off this line of questioning and takes her in to go look inside of the lab, particularly in Fred's little corner. And we have Wesley and Illyria down in the lab having a moment. And Wesley's like, what the hell are you doing? And Illyria is like, well, I'm visiting with my folks. And he's like, stop. Like, stop this. And so she drops the Fred act, and. And it's so crazy to watch Amy Acker switch back and forth while in the Fred Persona. [01:24:30] Speaker C: Just. Just the way her head even, like, moves, like, more like. [01:24:34] Speaker A: And her eyes go dead. Her voice drops, like, three octaves. Your grief hangs off you like. Your grief hangs off you like rudded flesh. So scary. And he. He's like, how is it possible? She says, it's simple modulation of my form. I appear as I choose. Do you wish me to stop? And I think. Think, Leia, you and I were talking about this and theorizing this with Origin, that we think the reason why she's able to so seamlessly go into the Fred Persona is because she has all of the echoes and memories of Fred from before the. The memory wipe happened once. Angel. [01:25:09] Speaker B: She has access to it now. [01:25:11] Speaker A: Or Wesley broke that little, like, orb thingy. It caused all of those memories to go back inside of Illyria. So she's able to channel the mannerisms and stuff of Fred. So then they, like. She asks him, do you wish me to stop? And Illyria and Wesley just, like, lock eyes, and it's just, like, a lot of, like, tension. And Trish is like. And you could tell they're Reading the tension vibes. They're probably thinking it's sexual. And they're probably not 100% wrong. [01:25:38] Speaker B: Or they're a little concerned if they're tired or something. Yeah. [01:25:42] Speaker A: And they talk about her. Her office is bare as a bone because Wesley had to take down everything. And then we cut back to Wolfram and Hart in Rome, and we have. Alana's like, all right, tell me what you need. And they're like, our friends under some sort of a spell. They talk about the Immortal. And Alana's like, oh, no, he doesn't use spells. He doesn't need to. She's like, I've run into him many times, and I must say the outcome is always most satisfactory. They're like, nope. Yeah, it's a love spell. He's got our trap, for sure. Our egos will not let us leave anything. [01:26:13] Speaker C: He thinks magic is. Magic is dirty. I just love that they're, like, eating. She's eaten from this, like, big Coderie board that's just, like, on the table while they're doing this whole scene as well. It's just so Italian. [01:26:27] Speaker B: And she has her little come and light up her cigarette for her. [01:26:32] Speaker C: Yeah. On that, like, Cruella de Vil kind of step. [01:26:34] Speaker A: Yes. 100%. [01:26:38] Speaker B: You know what? Good for her, though. [01:26:40] Speaker A: Hey. She seems like she runs a tight ship, and she's happy. [01:26:44] Speaker B: I was CEO of a giant law firm. I, too, would have charcuterie just laid out at all times and somebody specifically just to light my cigarettes. [01:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:55] Speaker C: I love that kind of comment that they make about the. About the Americans, like, you know, always wanting to do that. Like, it's like, no play. [01:27:06] Speaker A: It's so true, though. [01:27:07] Speaker B: It was. [01:27:07] Speaker A: It was very true. [01:27:09] Speaker C: Because they're like, get me the helicopter. Get me the helicopter. Get me the guns. Like, get me the. [01:27:13] Speaker B: Like, we're going to war. [01:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Where's my gun? They're like, have another cheese from our charcuterie board. Yeah, have a smoke. [01:27:22] Speaker C: I love that. She's like, we've already got. We've already got the ransom right here. [01:27:27] Speaker A: She's like, make love, not war. Let's just give them the money. It's no big deal. I love how Angel's like, don't you guys have, like, an Italian Wesley here? He's like, yeah, Italian. Everything else. [01:27:37] Speaker C: He's having enough. Yeah. That was so good. [01:27:44] Speaker A: So good. All right. So then she's like, we need you to drop off this money. Or she's like, well, we're gonna drop off the money. And they're like, okay, well, who's. Who's gonna make the drop? Boom. Cut to them in the middle of the fountain, the deserted piazza. They've got the money waiting for the exchange. And Angel's like, I helped save the world. You know? Spike's like, like, I haven't. Angel's like, yeah, but I've done it more. Spike's like, oh, please. Angel's like, I closed the Hell Mount. Mouth spikes. Like, I've done that. Angel's like, you wore a necklace. I helped kill the mayor and Jasmine. [01:28:10] Speaker B: And also angel brought the necklace. [01:28:13] Speaker A: To be fair, angel bargained for that necklace, so it counts 100%. And then Angel's like, I stopped a cathla that saved the world. And Spike's like, buffy ran you through with a sword. Angel's like, yeah, but I made her do it. I signaled her with my eyes. Oh, I hate this line. [01:28:31] Speaker B: Like, it's funny. It's so funny. But at the same time, I'm just like, oh, my God. That was literally the most traumatizing thing I've ever watched in my life. Buffy, he has everybody. Mandy for angel for the. For everyone. For the audience. And you're. You're making a joke out of it now. No, I don't accept it, even though it's funny. And I'm gonna laugh, but I'm just like, oh, yeah. [01:28:55] Speaker C: Especially because no one else was there to know that Angel's eyes were closed. So I love that. It's obviously such a blatant lie that he's telling you. [01:29:01] Speaker B: Yes, she did. She told him to close his eyes. [01:29:04] Speaker A: She says, close your eyes. [01:29:05] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:29:06] Speaker A: God, yeah. [01:29:08] Speaker B: Your little liar, Angel. [01:29:10] Speaker C: I like that. Spike says to him, like, oh, does that even count? Because, like, stop in the mirror. And Jasmine, he's like, those don't count. [01:29:17] Speaker A: And then Spike being like, I helped her kill you. That counts as mine. Like, I was on the good side for once. Oh, my gosh. [01:29:26] Speaker B: He didn't. [01:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, yeah, he really didn't. He was like, he's gonna kill. [01:29:31] Speaker B: He literally saw her fighting and jealous, and he left. [01:29:34] Speaker A: Left. [01:29:35] Speaker B: It's kind of like the same thing, though, where, like, angel brought the amulet and chosen, and then Spike used it to save the world. [01:29:41] Speaker A: Facilitated, for sure. But he's just like, yeah, yeah, yes. You know, Semantics. My point is, I'm better than this. Okay? We're better than this. What the hell could Buffy see in him? And the butler shows up and is like, perhaps she liked the cut of his trousers. I was like, our 15th dick joke of the episode. Then they turn out around the butler's, like, holding the bag. Half a dozen of thugs and vampires and all that stuff surrounding them. Back at Wolfram and Hart in la, Roger and Trish are getting ready to leave. They're like, you know, the beach is calling, so sorry to drop in on you unannounced. Fred Slash Illyria is like, oh, my gosh, I wish you guys could stay longer. Trish is like, are you sure you're okay? You seem different somehow. Roger's like, oh, she's just growing up. Let her go. You're going to embarrass her. And then they give her one last hug and they said, we'll talk. Talk soon. The elevator leaves, and immediately her, like, face just. The emotions just bleeds out of her face. Wesley's like, did you get what you needed from that experience? And Illyria says, yes, it was most informative. And he says, good. Don't ever do it again. And then takes off. Oh, cool. So you have to tell the Burkles next time you see them that you lied to them on top of breaking the news that their daughter is dead. [01:30:55] Speaker B: They can't ever tell them now. [01:30:57] Speaker A: Great plan, Wesley. Great plan. [01:30:59] Speaker B: Well, that's what I'm saying. They can't ever tell them. Like, this was their opportunity to tell them, and now they can't ever know that. What? Fred is dead. [01:31:07] Speaker A: So traumatizing. If there was a Season six, I really do wonder. They probably would have broken the news in, like, the most traumatic way ever for. [01:31:13] Speaker B: Or they would have never mentioned them again. I think that's probably. [01:31:17] Speaker C: Or if they were planning on having Fred shirt of the body with Illyria, then maybe they were. That would have been their way out of it. [01:31:24] Speaker B: Yeah. It would have been a non issue. [01:31:26] Speaker A: Oh, man. That still would be traumatizing for the parents to realize that their daughter is briefly in hab. Well, was killed off briefly by that DM and then came back. Yeah, that would be. [01:31:37] Speaker C: Still, that reminds me of, like, of. Of Buffy in Faith, Hope and Trick, when Joyce is like, you died. You never told me you died. Yeah, I hate your life. [01:31:46] Speaker B: She came back to me fair. [01:31:49] Speaker A: Poor Joy. [01:31:50] Speaker B: Just for a second. [01:31:55] Speaker A: It was only for a minute. All right, back in the piazza, we have the butler circling angel and Spike. And the butler's like, you must be so lonely. Your girlfriend has become lovers with the Immortal. How unfortunate for you and how fortunate for her. And he just like. You know, the Immortal, he's like, but of course. And Angel's like, I knew it. None of this is coincidence. And Spike's, like, been his plan all along. Steal our head, keep us busy, and traipse off with my girl. [01:32:19] Speaker B: Girl. [01:32:20] Speaker A: Our girl. And the Angel's like, this is a setup. The butler's like, I should be so lucky to be his lackey. No, the Immortal does not need men like me to do his business. He's a wild card. A wolf removed from the pack. A stallion without the bridle. [01:32:35] Speaker B: Because he had relations with the Immortal, too. He's just out here with him. Yeah. Seriously. [01:32:42] Speaker A: The mother's like, no, no, no. Well, okay. Yes. [01:32:46] Speaker B: Yes. [01:32:49] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. He talks about his book, how he's an inspiration, a spiritual guide. Angels. Like, I'm getting a little tired of Italy. Spike's like, I know what you mean. Like, code for it. Let's just start fighting. He's like, oh, looks. The Americans are relying on violence to solve their problems. What a surprise. Oh, as an American, so valid. [01:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:33:14] Speaker A: So they fight. The Italian, like, throws the bag. And then they're playing hot potato. Until finally the Italians had enough. The butler, he grabs the bag and has a gun aimed at the bag. He's like, all right, no more games. One more step, the head gets it. We're not animals. We're Italian. You give us the money, we give you the head. And angel and Spike are standing there pondering the double meaning. He's like, you gave us the money, we give you the head. So they finally do the swap, and they end up up taking off and leaving and looking. And then Spike unzips the bag. They look down, head's gone. And it's a bomb. We don't see anything except for the aftermath. And now Spike and Angel are walking through the blasted remains. They both are scorched and battered. And Spike's holding the tattered remains of his leather duster in his hands like the body of a devil. [01:33:57] Speaker B: Finally, it's been destroyed. [01:33:59] Speaker A: Symbolically shedding their old Personas, taking on new ones. [01:34:04] Speaker C: I love the Angel. Just calls him out and that he's like, you. Prided off the body of a dead slayer. [01:34:09] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Final. We're talking about this. I'm so sick of the season seven Buffy narrative of it being empowering for Spike when it symbolizes so much bad. Like, come on. Yeah, don't get me started. That makes me. That makes me rage. Spike's like, well, it gives me great sentimental value. Besides, I've been wearing it for over 30 years. It's like a part of me. And he Just, like, get over it. Buy a new one. And I'm like, I'm gonna use that for when we get to lies. My parents told me I'm just gonna lie. Like, clip that in right there. So then we cut to Wolfram and Hart, and Alana now has bought Spike a brand new leather coat. And apparently 30 of them, 10 of them over to LA. [01:34:47] Speaker C: She's like, I. I said 10 more to LA. [01:34:50] Speaker B: And some nice. Like, a nice collection of shoes, which. [01:34:53] Speaker A: Good, because this man looks like he smells like, seriously needs some new clothes. He's been wearing the same outfit. [01:34:59] Speaker B: Spike, bathe. We still don't know. [01:35:02] Speaker C: I love that Alona as well, says to them, like, oh, they always do this to first timers. [01:35:08] Speaker B: It's like, oh, been initiated into the sketchy dealings of Italy. [01:35:13] Speaker A: That's why she didn't send anyone else to do the drop. [01:35:16] Speaker B: Seriously. [01:35:18] Speaker A: And then angel comes in wearing the Italian motorcycle jacket. [01:35:22] Speaker B: Oh, my God. He's. Oh, yeah, he's just, like, so large. He just looks like a refrigerator. [01:35:27] Speaker A: He has, like, shoulder pads, which make his shoulders even larger, which. Okay, I wrote in my notes, Leah, I was like, this is 100% from David Boreana's closet. He basically dresses like this. [01:35:36] Speaker B: Oh, 1 million percent that he took that jacket home. [01:35:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:39] Speaker B: And it's in his closet. He wore it, like, seriously, unironically. He wore that jacket. [01:35:48] Speaker A: Oh, it's so funny. All right, so then Angel's like, that's it. Call up the helicopters and the assault team. We're getting our head back. And Alana's like, no, no, no. I love you guys so much, but brute force will only get your precious head smooshed. You've done such fine quality work. Now, please relax. Let us handle it from here. Sometimes you have to put your faith in a higher power. She pushes them out of the office, locks the door. They're like, we're heroes. They're banging on the door. We don't need any higher power. We'll make our own fate. Then they're like, well, we got this under control. Well, should we just go home? Spike's like, oh, God, yes. You couldn't get me out of this rat hole of a country fast enough. [01:36:25] Speaker B: And then. [01:36:26] Speaker A: And then, of course, they have to make one more stop, just in case Buffy's at the house. And then Andrew's like, now showered? And they're like, is Buffy back yet? And he's like, like, sorry, not yet. You guys can hang if you want. I'm just heading out. And then he's like, oh, nice jacket. Angel's like, all defensive. It's the latest style. It's latest style. And then they go in. They're like, andrew, has Buffy been acting off? Like, is she under a spell? And Andrew's like, excellent question. No. And then he, like, kind of, like, stands there with his hands on his hip as he's, like, listening to them just, like, moan and groan. And then he finally, like, leaves. And he's talking to them out of ear or, like, out of camera shot that. And they're like, could it be mind control or a love potion? And Andrew's like, guys, I thought all those things. But it turns out Buffy fell for the Immortal on her own, and now she's happy. And then we get one of the funniest lines. Angel's like, but she's not finished baking yet. I've got to wait till she's done baking, you know, till she finds herself. Because that's the drill. Fine. I'm waiting patiently. And meanwhile, the mortal's eating cookie dough. [01:37:23] Speaker B: And he looks like he's on the verge of tears. [01:37:25] Speaker A: He, like, wipes his eyes. [01:37:28] Speaker B: He, like, sits down. Goes. [01:37:29] Speaker C: Goes. [01:37:32] Speaker A: Yes. His head in his hands. [01:37:35] Speaker B: He's devastated. [01:37:36] Speaker A: Andrew's like, Spike, is Angel crying? Spike's like, no, no, not yet. [01:37:41] Speaker C: Not yet. [01:37:43] Speaker A: And then Andrew's like, the mortal's cool and all, but he ain't all that. He's got his flaws, and they're, like, perking up, really. And he's like, the point is, she's moving on. You guys do the same. And you might catch her one day. One of you, anyway. But if you keep running in place, you're going to find she's long gone. And then Spike is like, it is a bit silly, us chasing around like a couple of Henpeck teenagers. Andrew says, buffy loves both of you, but she's got to live her life. People change. And then he walks out and he's dressed in a tuxedo, and he goes, you guys should try it sometime. And this is why I really do love that they have Andrew in this moment, because I think it's a great continuation, not just from season seven of Buffy with Storyteller, but also what we were talking about in Damage when Andrew came back. And we had him contrasting Spike in a lot of ways and how they were. We were talking a lot about how, like, Spike is very stuck in his obsession with slayers and with Buffy, and how Andrew undercutting them at the end of the episode shows how he's moved on and how Andrew has changed and how he's no longer making up up a story because he's out living his life and he's actually, like, doing something with it. And I really love that. [01:38:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah. I will say I really enjoy. Like, obviously, this is kind of the entire purpose of the episode is to basically tell, like, what Andrew says to the guys is what the episode is ultimately trying to tell us. I will say that, like, I totally agree with it. I totally agree that they both. You know, Buffy's living her life, like I said earlier. She's, like, finding herself. She's doing her own thing, as she should. And I want to say specifically, like, in terms of angel, because I hear. I hear criticism of, like, you know, why is he still, like. It's been. He's. He's been on his own show for years and he's been. You know, he's moved on. Why is he still pining after Buffy and things like that? [01:39:36] Speaker C: And they also literally only dated for six months. [01:39:40] Speaker A: Spike and Buffy or Angel and Buffy? [01:39:42] Speaker C: Angel and Buffy. [01:39:43] Speaker A: Yeah. They were kind of on and off again for less than that. [01:39:47] Speaker C: Yeah, they weren't really official. And then they only slept together once. [01:39:52] Speaker B: Yeah. But I think. I don't know. I. I'm of the opinion that they, like, never get over each other. Like, they move on because. [01:40:00] Speaker C: Because they can't be together. [01:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:02] Speaker A: Like, they. [01:40:03] Speaker B: I think. I think there's a difference between, like, moving on from somebody and getting over them. And I think with Buffy and Angel, I. I am of the opinion that they never get over each other, even through everything. I think it's just. They accept that they can't be together and then they move on because life keeps happening. And, like, angel has to go to his own show and he has to go through all of these experiences, and that's fine. He moves on, and so does she. But I. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, like. Like, in order for him and Buffy to ever, like, end up together someday, because that's what he wants, he has to, like, live his life. He has to, like, grow and go through experiences just like she does. And I think that's a good thing. And I like that the episode is, like, reinforcing that idea that, like, Angel's hanging onto this idea because he. This, like, hope that he can be with Buffy again because he doesn't have, like, he's lost everything else. Almost like he's clinging to this thing. But I think ultimately this is good, like, if you want to one day, maybe try again. With Buffy, because you love each other, which I believe that they do. I think it's. This is exactly how you should go about it. You should go out and live your life. And they're always going to be in each other's orbits because they're both. You know, they both save the world. There's not very many people like them in the world. Right. Like, there's the group of people that. That they're all together. They're all allies. So you're always going to be in each other's orbits, but, like, you have to, like, go on and do your own thing. And then if life leads you back to each other, then it will lead you back to each other. And. Yeah, I just. I. I'm. Basically, what I'm trying to say is I like the messaging here, and I think it's. It's healthy, and I think it's. It doesn't mean that, like, to me, at least, I don't. I don't think it means that, like, angel should move on from Buffy and, like, forget about her and do whatever. It just means, like, just live in the moment. Right. And, like, experience life and grow and then. But that doesn't mean that, like, the love that you feel for this person is meaningless. It's still gonna be there. [01:42:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:42:12] Speaker B: So, yeah. [01:42:13] Speaker A: I think it's just interesting to me how the show in season one had. Had such, like. It has one of the most pivotal Buffy and Angel episodes, and I will remember you. And how after that, it's almost like the show's like, well, we wrapped that up, so any other message, any other interaction with Buffy is just gonna kind of be, oh, that was in the past, and we need to move on kind of thing. And, like, I can agree with that. But I think that this episode kind of does a disservice to the events of I will remember you and to the big feelings that angel has. I mean, that was pretty traumatizing, the fact that angel got everything he wanted. He became human, he had Buffy, and now he's the only one that remembers that. So I think, yeah, that's the big thing for me with this episode is when Angel's sitting here, like, all basically crying about cookie dough and stuff like that. It's supposed to be comedic, and it's supposed to make him look pathetic, but it's like, that was a big deal, and I will remember you is really beautiful. And the sacrifice that angel had to make was a really big one and really noble, and it speaks a lot to his character, and it Speaks a lot to how much he cares for her. And so them trying to kind of say, get over it, move on. It's not necessarily bad. But the way they're going about it, I feel like, undercuts the story they told us in season one. And so I think it's hard sometimes this show really undercuts its own legacy. And undercuts cuts a lot of the messaging that it has told us. I mean, Leia and I were talking about this. It's also a little bit ridiculous watching angel like this after how much they played up the Cordelia and Angel relationship in season three, four, and even in you're welcome and stuff. And so I think sometimes when the show chooses to go so comedic as they do, it sometimes causes story lines where they really want us to feel how heavy things are, to feel undercut and to feel not as impactful or meaningful. And that can create. That creates a cognitive dissonance for the storytelling for us, but it also can create resentment for the fans who are like, you made us feel something in those episodes, and now you're telling us to get over it and move on through these characters. And sometimes that can make a little bit of resentment for some viewers. And I know that's how a lot of people view this episode is like, wow, this. This really makes me so feel kind of bad for wanting to ship these characters together after you did such a good job of making me care for them and their relationship, you know? [01:44:50] Speaker C: So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I think the only other aside I would maybe add to that is, like, there is an element of truth to how kind of. Of how an ex can kind of, like, get into your head if you have, like, an experience with them, you know, even if you're over them. And, like, further. Further down the line, having to have an experience where they're, like, in the picture maybe for, like, a couple of days or whatever, can maybe cause that kind of comic mental breakdown that the angel seems to be. Yeah, because I know at least I'm. I've definitely been like that, where I've been totally over someone, and then, like, the ex will pop up. I remember actually, it was like, last year when I was, like, starting to get sober, and my ex from, like, my childhood ex, my first, like, relationship ex, we, like, we Skyped and we talked for, like, three days, and I remember being like, oh, my God, we're gonna get back together. Like, this is. I just. And then being so hurt again when it was like, oh, then we just stopped talking. To each other again, I was like, what? [01:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's so valid. And I mean, like, again, the messaging of the episode isn't wrong because, like, I think there is that element of it. But I think, like, the tone and the way that they're presenting it to us causes it to just kind of feel cheap. I think cheap really is the best way of doing that, which is sad because I will remember you in episodes like that. And even aspects of the Spike and Buffy relationship are not cheap. And the show worked really hard to get us to that point of feeling like we were invested. You know, I think it's just like. [01:46:26] Speaker B: When you compare where they leave off with these relationships in, like, the Buffy season finale or series finale, so different versus where they leave off here, there's just such a disconnect. And I get that this. The writers of these shows love to use humor to, like, bring across a message in, like, a meta way almost where they're like, okay, guys, stop fighting about who Buffy's gonna end up with. Buffy just needs to be with Buffy. And, like, I get that and I respect it. I feel they did it much better in Chosen. And I don't know if that's. Because that's from Buffy's perspective. So they're trying to show it, like, as Buffy, whereas in this show, it's very much like a boys club and it's about the guys. And maybe that's why it feels more disrespectful, because they don't know how to write women's perspectives on the show, you know? So I think that's. I totally agree, Sarah, that it just. It feels cheap. And especially if you compare it to Chosen. Like, in Chosen, Buffy and Spike got a really beautiful ending, and Buffy and Angel got a really beautiful. Like, they got a beautiful nod and, like, a beautiful ending to that, too. Like an open ending, which I really loved. And to come here and then see them do this, it's just like, ah. That kind of just like, leaves a bit of a bad taste. But it doesn't ruin, like, it will never. I will always be a Buffy and angel girly to the day that I die. You know, that's what fan fiction exists for. Like, I'm not saying that I wanted them to get back together on screen or anything. Like, whatever. That's just always going to be the relationship that I love the most on both shows. And it's the relationship that, like, I'll seek out fanfiction to see, like, what happens after. You know, there's Some really great, like, people that write post series finale fan fiction about all of that stuff. And this episode will never, like, it'll never taint that for me. So, you know, it just. It is what it is, I guess. [01:48:24] Speaker C: Are you. Are you not a fan of the whole Twilight thing in the comics? [01:48:29] Speaker B: I don't claim the comics. [01:48:35] Speaker C: They did get a bit crazy around the whole Twilight and then angel killing Giles. [01:48:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that was. Was crazy. I've never read the comics, but I've obviously, like, read about them and what happens in them. That sounded like a crazy storyline. And. Yeah, I don't claim it. Sorry. Yeah, I know you like the comics, but that's okay. [01:48:55] Speaker C: I mean, I. I can still acknowledge they. They went a bit not. So that reveal. When you find out after like, four years later or whatever that's meant to be one year in Slayer world, you know that, like, angel is Twilight and you're like, this just does not mix. [01:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he kills Giles, but then they, like, resurrect. Giles is like a child or something. A baby. [01:49:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:20] Speaker B: Crazy. [01:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:22] Speaker C: And then Giles pretty much disowns Buffy and picks Faith over. [01:49:27] Speaker A: Yeah. No, no. [01:49:28] Speaker C: And angel had. Angel has sex with Fred when she's back in her new body. It's. It's all a bit weird, but. [01:49:35] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's a. That's the thing, though. Like, I feel like if you are a person who likes a comic book format and you enjoy comics, like, you're going into it expecting it to be a little bit crazy. I feel like, you know, I'm someone who, like, doesn't. I've never been into comics, so I just. I really have, like, no interest in reading a continuation in that format. So I personally don't consider them canon, even though, like, you know, it's been said that they are. But I think it's up to each individual person. Like, if you like them and you want to consider them canon, then you can do that. If you don't, then it's not on tv, so I can disconnect and just be like, the Buffyverse ended at not fade away. And I'm happy with that. And that's it. And then I can read my little fan fiction about how what happened after, you know. [01:50:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:50:26] Speaker A: Yep. All right. Right. So Andrew's final scene when he's leaving for the opera with two women, while commenting that people change, is at odds with the fact that Andrew was heavily implied to be attracted to men. So Joss Whedon later admitted that this apparent character change was due to this being a holdover scene from when dawn was expected to be in this episode. So it was supposed to be, like, Buffy's older sisters all or younger sisters, all grown up. Now. It was meant to be a mixed sex group rather than all female black. But Joss wasn't there when it was filmed to make sure it was done properly, and so that's why it was not done the way that it was. Which Josh says things all the time. Who knows, or whatever. [01:51:04] Speaker B: But I do believe he says things after the fact to, like, cover his own ass. [01:51:08] Speaker A: Oh, all the time. [01:51:09] Speaker C: I mean, as some. As someone who is actually gay, I didn't watch it and in any way feel offended. That, like. [01:51:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:15] Speaker C: And I didn't think they were making such a big statement like, oh, people change. I thought it was kind of cool as being, like, Andrew was a geek, and now he's not a geek. That was more kind of how. [01:51:23] Speaker B: That's how I read it. [01:51:24] Speaker A: Settled into himself, and he's figured out who he wants to be because, I mean, in the previous episode that we'd seen him in, he was wearing a jacket to try to look like Spike. So it's this idea of, like, he's becoming his own person, which. Yeah, same. So he leaves. What? [01:51:42] Speaker B: Same? [01:51:43] Speaker A: Same. [01:51:44] Speaker B: Are you. Are you trying to find yourself, Sarah? [01:51:47] Speaker A: All the time. Constantly. Constantly evolving. Who am I? Especially after we finished the podcast. Who am I? I'm not a podcaster. [01:51:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we're gonna do another one eventually. [01:51:59] Speaker A: Eventually. [01:52:01] Speaker B: One day. [01:52:02] Speaker A: All right. So Andrew leaves. Spike's like, well, maybe it's time that we. Angel's like, yeah. And then they head to the door. Then they had. Or now we're back in Wesley's office. He's back in the dark, staring at a wall once again. And then Illyria comes in, still in her Fred Persona, and is talking to him while, like, Fred says, are you mad at me or something? Wesley says, stop it. Illyria says, isn't this what you desire? I mean, you love me, I love you. What's the big deal? Again, channeling Fred. Wesley says, I loved her. Illyria says, you loved this, and part of you still does. I can feel it in you. I wish to explore it further. Wesley's like, never you like this. It sickens me. And Illyria says, oh, Lord, we both know that ain't true. Like Fred, she sidles up to him, and he says, stop it. Change back. [01:52:48] Speaker B: Be blue. [01:52:48] Speaker A: Be anything. Don't be her. Don't ever be her. And then he walks out of the office. And then we have this fantastic, like, Illyria switch up. Like she goes from Fred to Illyria, and then she says, as you wish. So critically touched. Had a really interesting statement where they said Illyria's morphing is also a perfect example of the secondary theme of this episode. Each character is dealing with their own separate issues, but they all deal with it in the same way. They all use the past in order to distract themselves from the issues they are dealing with in the present. For example, Wesley had the opportunity to take one step closer in moving on from Fred by saying what happened out loud to other people that cared about her just as much as him. Even though he is shocked by the appearance of Fred, he still allows. He still allows it to happen. Sure, it was easier for him to avoid that awful conversation with the Burkles, but I also think he's holding on to a small sliver of Fred. By keeping her parents out of the know, in turn, Illyria is doing the same thing. Illyria can learn to integrate herself into society if she wants to fit in. She has proven that she knows how to act normal, or as normal as Fred ever was when she posed as her. Instead of trying to create her own new Persona, she chooses to reference the past by posing as Fred again to convince Wesley to help her explore her feelings. Here, Wesley does the mature and rational thing by telling her to refrain from ever taking Fred's form again. Although just keeping her around at all is an obvious sign of holding onto the past. And I so love that. Especially the fact that, like we talked about in Origin, how Wesley is choosing to kind of believe and hang on to the false memories that were created, because that helps him kind of cope with and avoid some of the other pain that's going on. And in doing so, he's holding on to the fantasy. And we've talked a lot about how Fred represents a fantasy for Wesley in a lot of ways, always has. And now with him not talking to the Burkles about what happened to Fred, he can kind of still continue to hold on to that fantasy, even though he's obviously very uncomfortable. But, yeah, I just. I thought that was very fascinating. [01:54:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:54:55] Speaker A: So then, guns. Signing some paperwork as angel and Spike step out of the elevator. Angel's like, gun, we lost the head. Start preparing the troops for war. Guns. Like, the head's in your office. It's on your desk. They go in his office, and there it is, like, in a. In the bowling bag. And it's like, got, like a nice little note that's like Tied with a ribbon and everything. And they read it, it says, with regards to the Immortal. And that's, like, Angel's last straw. He's just, like, tearing the note into, like, tiny little pieces, you know? I really hate that guy. Spike's like, what was Buffy thinking? Honestly? Angel's like, she doesn't exactly have the best taste in men. Case in point. Spike's like, hey, I think I turned out all right. Angel's like, yeah, once she got through with you. Spike's like, I wasn't the one living in an alley's rubbing rat filth all over my face. If we're talking projects, you're the Sistine Chapter couple. And then he's like, can't we just lock her away in a box where no one could ever touch her? You know, like we did Pavane. Angel thinks about it and goes, I don't think she'd let us. She's pretty strong. We could do a spell, some sort of mind control. And Angel's like, nah, she's pretty smart. Spike's like, so what? We just have to live with it, get on with our lives? Angel says, frayed. So Spike says, fine. No problem. I was planning on doing that anyway. Way angel says. Yeah, me too. Spike says, actually, I'm doing it right now, as we speak. I'm moving on. Angel's like, moving on? Oh, yeah. Right now. Moving. And then we end. [01:56:22] Speaker B: Yeah, they're not moving on. [01:56:24] Speaker A: Let's. [01:56:24] Speaker B: Let's be real. They're never moving on. [01:56:27] Speaker A: Boys, boys, boys. But honestly, it's Buffy summer, so if you're gonna crash out for anybody, honestly, that's valid. [01:56:33] Speaker B: But I also can't move on from Buffy Summers. [01:56:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Here. Here I am. [01:56:36] Speaker B: I can't really. I can't blame them. [01:56:39] Speaker A: Not one to speak at all. All right, well, that was the girl in question. Tony, thank you for joining us. This was fun. You. [01:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [01:56:47] Speaker C: Thank you so much. Sorry. It would have been funny if I had my big fake boobs on, but that's okay. [01:56:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Tony was gonna come in. He had rip to the boobs and a wig and everything. Was planning on it, but his boobs. What's the back? Snapped? Your bra snapped? [01:57:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:57:01] Speaker A: Sad. [01:57:02] Speaker C: Yeah, the whole, like. The whole silicone part around, like, the neck that connects to the back. So it would have been like half my boobs. [01:57:08] Speaker A: Oh, we don't want. It's a travesty. But I'm glad we got to have you on one. Well, I was gonna say one last time. One last time for Us. You're our last guest of the podcast. [01:57:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:57:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:57:22] Speaker C: Thanks so much for. For having me. I'm sure. Hopefully, if you would like to return the favor and come be with us as we go through our Buffy angel journey. [01:57:31] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [01:57:32] Speaker B: You guys are gonna do angel as well? [01:57:34] Speaker C: I mean, I'm hoping that I can get. Get David in. Into it. I feel like if he's liking season three of Buffy, it's a good sign. I think that he would probably like angel. [01:57:42] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. [01:57:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that'd be fun. Well, if you do, we'll be listening to you guys. And where can we find you, Tony? [01:57:50] Speaker C: You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, TikTok, Instagram, everywhere at all. Bronze no Brains. [01:58:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys should check them out again. They've done seasons one and two of Buffy. They're about to go into season three. Well, it's going to be a few months right before you drop season three on hiatus right now, but still lots of stuff to check out and love and got some great edits. And your guys's episodes always make me laugh really hard. I've started showing them to my husband. We, like, lay in bed at night and we laugh at it. [01:58:22] Speaker C: Oh, that's good. That's. That's what we want. We're just trying to add a little sunshine into the dark. [01:58:28] Speaker B: Love it. [01:58:29] Speaker C: Dark world. [01:58:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fun. It's definitely very unique. There's a lot of Buffy podcasts out there, but you guys definitely have a very unique, unique feel and vibe, and it's just very fun. So. Yeah. [01:58:39] Speaker C: Well, thank you. [01:58:40] Speaker A: So, yeah, listeners, let us know what you guys think of the episode. Let us know. Do you hate it? Do you love it? Do you guys really? [01:58:47] Speaker B: There's gonna be a lot of mixed feelings on this one. We're gonna get either, like, people who love it or people who are like. [01:58:52] Speaker A: There'S really nobody that's ambivalent about this episode. There's some pretty strong feelings out there. But, yeah. Let us know your guys's pros and cons. What do you think of Wesley's decision to not tell the Burkles about Illyria? Illyria's choices in this episode, guns, choices, and then all the shenanigans between Spike and Angel and stuff. And, yeah, even, like, what's going on with Andrew? Let us know your thoughts. As always, thank you so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us@ InvestigatingAngelpodcastmail.com.

S5. Ep20. The Girl in Question Ft. All Bronze, No Brains!

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

Other Episodes

S3. Ep6. Billy

S1. Ep14. I've Got You Under My Skin

S2. Ep11. Redefinition