Show Notes
During World War II, Angel works with the U.S. Navy to recover a German U-boat with captured American sailors on board, as well as a secret cache of vampires.
View Full Transcript
Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode 13, why we fight, written by Stephen Denight and Drew Goddard, directed by Terence O'Hara, and aired February 11, 2004. Okay, so I. From what, like, the reviews and things that I was looking up, this tends to be known as, like, one of the weaker episodes of season five.
And so, like, I remember the first time I watched the show, when I went into it, I was like, this is so boring. I always think of it as, like, the submarine episode and being like, what's the point of it? I watched it. I actually really enjoyed this episode.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't hate it either.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: I was watching and I was like, this is like. The character of Lawson is really, like, compelling and interesting. I think he's misused. I think they could have done more with him. But the rest of the characters, take them or leave them. But the dynamic between angel and Lawson, which is the majority of the dynamic of this entire episode, frankly, is really interesting. There were a lot of little. The Initiative, the beginnings of the Initiative, which I never thought about. Experiment, the chip experience, and how they got it back from the Nazis, and what that says about the themes of this episode and how it points back to Angel. How you have. You can get so lost in doing something good that you start to do bad things is really, really interesting.
I think what makes people not like this episode, and I cannot fault them for that. Is placement.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: I was gonna say horrendous place.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it's right after. You're welcome. And they don't even. I mean, we have to address the elephant in the room. They don't even talk about Cordelia dying.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: But there's no change to.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: How Angel's acting in this episode versus every other episode before. So, like, did anything. Like, we talked about this last episode, and you're welcome. Like, we didn't really understand where. Where Angel's change of heart came from. And then this episode, it's like, well, you're back to status quo. So, like, what did. Did Cordelia change anything?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: So. Which is a bummer, because I think this episode really does a good job of encapsulating the theme of the season and themes of the show. And it's like. It would have been so interesting to have put this far earlier in the season and maybe cut out one of the other episodes and put this in there instead. Because at this point, purpose.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: They could have replaced sole purpose with this. I actually would have thinking of that. Been just fine.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So I. I thought it was very interesting. I think it did need to be a little bit tighter. I think there were a few things they could have done to make this a little bit more, like, turn it from a. A good episode to like a really great episode. Mainly, like, maybe they should have leaned in more to, oh, Lawson has like, half a soul and what does that look like? Or angel changed a vampire while he had. Or changed a man into a vampire while he has a soul, and that affects the turning of the vampire. Like, I just felt like that was a missed opportunity. Although I get why they didn't. But.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's a can of worms, though. If you open that.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: I want the can of worms because I'm bored. The ones I have are dead.
I want a new can of worms.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Did they even know at this point that they were canceled? It's like, imagine having, what, like, 11 episodes left from the show in general.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: I mean, that's not something they were going to dive into. Although that's. It's really interesting concept and I wish we could have known more about it.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: But it's also just like. And again, another reason why I think this episode, on top of placement, which this is also a factor with placement, is the fact that this is the same freaking theme we've had all season long. And there's been a lot of. This is the first time you guys are going to hear me complain about this, but I feel like it's valid. This is like the fifth angel centric episode we've had this season. But they're all the same thing, and every single one has been so heavily focused on angel being alone, which I get it, because they're going like they're doing something with that. Like, they really want us to know it. Guys. Angel's alone, Angel's depressed, Angel's hopeless, and, you know, has no conviction and he's doing everything that's isolating his friends and stuff. We get it. But it's like the misuse of literally everyone and the fact that we are just not doing anything with any other character and we're literally about to enter into, like, massive territory with some of these characters, and we're over halfway through the season. It's just.
It's kind of a bummer.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: But, yeah, it does kind of didn't really do Anything. Like, they literally just stood on a chair and were they did. Being threatened.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: The entire episode.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Right. When it was, like, implied that they're the reason that angel still fights. And yet, like, they barely have any dialogue. And you're like, okay, yeah. They just figureheads at this point. Like.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Right. This is, like, definitely an episode comparable to Somnambulist.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Is that the one with Jeremy Renner?
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah. But in Somnambulist, like, you have Wesley and Cordelia like, doing stuff in the background. Right.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: They have their own plot of, like, we kill Angel. And that's the thing. Like, a lot of these episodes have been. That are solely angel centric and angel focused. There's been no B plot. Like, it's just been focused on angel, whether it's the past, the present, or not.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: What we asked for, girlfriend.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Not like this, man. Not like this.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: I know.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Substance.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: I feel like this episode did have substance, but like you said, it's. It's the same thing. I did like that they did something a little bit different with somebody from Angel's past coming back. And, like, we've never seen anything like this specifically. Like, we've seen variations of this, obviously, with Drusilla and Pen.
And I think also the guy from the first episode of season three, kind of a little bit different. What's his name? James and Heartthrob.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: I mean, just like a vampire from Angel's past. Yeah.
But, yeah, I. I like this variation of it that it's like, post soul Angel. Right. And then how, like, Lawson and Angel kind of mirror each other.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And how Lawson was a genuinely really good guy. Like, it's actually. You feel really bad for him at the very end when he's asking angel to, like, give him something. And again, it reminded me of Buffy singing Give me Something to sing about to. Sweet. And it was like, angel can't.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: You know, he's just going through the motions of being an evil vampire.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: But he doesn't feel anything. It's just like, what?
Yeah.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: So it was very interesting, very compelling.
All right, so this episode, obviously entitled why We Fight, it's titled after the series of America World War II era propaganda films called they would. They would call them why We Fight, which explained the reasons why the US Was involved in the war. This episode was marketed by Warner Brothers as 1942. So originally they didn't release the name. They just called it 1942, which is pretty interesting of the title, obviously, Demon Research Initiative. It's likely a precursor to The Initiative. I feel like that's pretty heavily implied. And I think it's so interesting how you have them finding the tools from the Nazis that the Initiative wants to use. And we have a couple fun little nods of angel being like, I'm not going to be trapped at the bottom of the ocean. And then Spike being like, oh, like they're never going to like, in chip me or whatever, experiment on me. And you're just like, oh, sure, ye. Exactly.
But it's also really funny too, because you have a lot of the Captain America comparisons with Lawson. Like he feels very Steve Rogers coded and stuff. Especially with Riley being called Captain Cardboard and like, often being Research. Sorry, not research.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Often being referenced.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Referenced as an Steve Rogers esque type person and character and stuff. So that was kind of fun to have, like, all those little, like, parallels and callbacks and stuff too. Um, so I found a good old Reddit, found a Reddit post where someone said that there was a podcast that had a panel, a bunch of writers from Buffy and Angel that talked about. Briefly talked about this episode where they said that this episode was written, like extremely last minute. And they mostly wrote the idea of the episode around the set, probably due to like budgetary constraints and stuff.
I looked it up, so it's Nerdist.com it's episode 183. And I listened to part of the episode. It was like over an hour long. And I could not find the specific blip where they talked about that. But they talked a lot about, like, the killer in me, like, the reasons behind, like, writing that. And like, it's a lot of like, Josh Joss is the best. We love Joss, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, because it was in 2015, but it was really, really interesting. And they said some very fascinating things. One of the things that I thought was very. I think it was David Fury who was talking. I can't. I don't recognize everybody's voices, but it was Marty Knox and Dave Fury. Greenwald, Espison. Tonight, Forbes.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Oh, like, like all the.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: The Avengers, buddy, everybody. It was quite the panel. Yeah. And it was really interesting to hear them talking. And. Oh, is Doug Petrie too? Doug Petrie's on there. But they were talking about how one of the things that they really wish that was in television today or back in 2015, so this is 10 years ago, but they talk about how one of the beauties of having 22 episodes. And I know you and I have talked about how we're like, we love the 22 episode format, which is funny because if you'd asked me, like, 10 years ago, I would have said no, like, shorter episodes would be better because, you know, more. It'd be tighter and everything. But as we all know, like, shorter episodes and longer, the less amount of episodes doesn't necessarily mean quality. And I think it was David Furey that said they had a wonderful opportunity with 22 episodes to pivot storyline wise if they realized something wasn't working. And so they'd be like, hey, we have 22 episodes. This storyline isn't working. Hey, we still have tons of time. Let's rework some things in the future, things that we haven't shot yet. But he's saying that when you have only eight or seven or nine episodes, you can't do that. So if something's not working, the entire season is awash. And I was like, that is such a really good point.
And they also talked about how they loved that working on these shows, they always knew where the characters were headed in the season and that they would do. I think we've talked about it before, State of the Onion, where they would sit down and literally, like, peel back the layers of the characters. And they said that they did it at least quarterly. And so there was, like, several times in the year during the season that they would sit down and go, okay, where is this character going this season? How can we get them there? And that's why you often have such good. Especially on Buffy. I would say the. You never are like, okay, where are they going with the character this season? Like, you always get a pretty good grasp of them. And he was saying that it's very frustrating that you can't find that a lot on shows, at least back in 2015. I think there's some happening nowadays, but they, like, specifically reference 24 and lost and stuff. But there's, like, things where he's like, he goes it. He's. He's like, in talking to other writers, they're like, oh, yeah, we. We don't sit down and talk about where our characters are going. And he's like, how in the world do you write?
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah, how do you write when you.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Don'T know where you're going? Like, that makes no sense. And so they were talking about that and. But yeah, it's very, very interesting. I truly, like, recommend anyone who has the go and sit down and listen to it. It's. It's really, really, really interesting. And, yeah, there's also some interesting, like, insights into Joss. And, like, it really does feel like The Cult of Joss in some ways. But. Yeah. But anyway, it was interesting, and so they talked briefly about this episode, and we're just saying that it was written last minute. And so I think you can kind of tell that it's still fairly well done for being written last minute. But you do get the sense of, like, oh, they're just like, slap an episode in here. And.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Which, to be quite honest, it kind of makes sense because I didn't know that you're welcome was. It was supposed to be written as a standalone. I always thought that it was supposed to be an actual, like, follow up to something, but when you said that when we recorded you're welcome, it makes complete sense that they wouldn't really have anything planned for after if they meant it to be written as a standalone. Yep. Which this episode feels like it's like a brand new, like, oh, you're welcome is its own thing. And then this is just like jumping back into the show sort of thing.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Which I think is why a lot of people don't like it, I think.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Right. And so I wonder if they literally wrote this last minute because they're like, crap, Sarah Michelle Geller can't make it. So we need to write you're welcome as a standalone. Therefore, we have to pivot, because the next episode is Smile Time, and you. And then you get some really, really intense episodes. And so I feel like it might have been too intense to go straight from your welcome into Smile Time, into all these other stuff. And so they needed something as a bit of a breather in between. So I think that's why this episode exists. But, yeah, little unfortunate, especially because they didn't know they were going to be cancelled, so.
Yep. So thematically, I was kind of talking about this earlier. Thematically, this episode connects very well to the season's arc. I can tell the show is trying to pivot a little bit more towards angel realizing that he has to have something worth fighting for, AKA his friends. And they're trying to bring the gang together.
And obviously the gang's barely in this one, but they're attempting to start to, like, hey, angel needs to surround himself with people and connections and stuff. And the idea that war turns people into monsters. You have to do horrible things to save the mission. And oftentimes that means sacrificing your own people. But over time, you lose your conviction because you've either either lost touch with the people, slash the reason why you've ever fought in the first place, or you just don't Care. And so you end up actually kind of becoming a monster in the process.
This episode actually gave me very similar vibes. I mean, it's 1940s to are you now or have you ever, ever been?
Which I looked up the. I don't know if you looked up the timeline for angel, but this happens, I think, roughly nine years before the events of are you now or have you ever been?
And so both the time period and the headspace that angel is in and kind of the themes we're actively watching, angel kind of sink into the same conviction, less despondency that he had in are you now or have you ever been? And even kind of at the beginning of the series.
So, yeah, it's like, you know, the cycles beginning anew in a lot of ways.
All right, so we are in a submarine in the Atlantic Ocean in 1943. There's a bunch of panicking, and we see this captain trying to get his men to get into a different place in the submarine. We have Lawson helping brunette Steve Rogers. And then something is attacking the other men that they're trying. That are in the compartment that they're trying to flee out of. And then the captain ends up getting taken and, like, pulled by an unseen creature. And we have lost in dragging the rest of the men out, and then they end up closing the door tightly behind them and they've lost the captain. We're like, oh, my gosh, it must be Spike. When I watched this, I was like, it's definitely Spike for sure. So then we go to the conference room in present day, and Angels conducting a meeting with Gun, Wes and Lauren and Fred. And there. Or I think it's Gun who's giving the briefing, and he's talking about, like, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, tactical briefings, locators, Eve. Oh, Eva's vanished. They can't find her. They don't know where she's at. And they're like, okay, well, no. What a loss. We're so bummed by that. And Wesley's like, well, she did leave swearing vengeance. That usually doesn't go well for us. Guns like, well, you know, the senior partners don't take betrayal lightly. And so then they're like, where is Lindsay right now? And Gun's like, oh, yeah, so Lindsay should be boiling in his own filth. And Angel's like, should be is not going to cut it. We need to find out for sure. Gun says the white room is empty and our liaison is missing. So he's like, we don't really have Any way of getting new information. And then he starts to kind of, like, stutter a little bit and shakes his head, and then kind of has to rephrase what he was saying as if he couldn't remember. And I'm like, oh.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Oh, something's happening.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Something's happening.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Gun's body.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: The Kool Aid literally trickling out.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Yes. Seriously. Oh, my gosh. It was really funny because my video actually glitched when I was watching it right then. And I was like, ooh, that felt very appropriate right when. Guns glitching. So then Angel's like, all right, guys, that's enough. Let's just. Let's go to bed. We can. Let's end on a high note. After saying Eve's vanished, he's like, let's end on a high note.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: He's like, yay, we can talk about it more tomorrow.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Lauren gets all excited. He's like, oh, my gosh, we can actually, like, have social lives. And then the rest of them are like, oh, no, we need to use this time to get caught up on all the stuff that we're not getting head on and that we're behind on. And.
And then Fred's like, what did we used to do before all of this?
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah, what did they used to do, honestly? Because they never had clients.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: It's true.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: They just sat around, really sporadic, like, they never knew when a vision would come.
So, like, really, what the. What did they ever do?
[00:18:22] Speaker A: They just staggered, apparently. But I don't remember ever watching them do that. Yeah, they truly have it. And that's. That is kind of where the show is shooting itself in the foot. Because when they were in the Hyperion, they're. Hyperion, Hyperion, Hyperion. When they're in the Hyperion.
Sorry, I'm, like, so tired right now. When they're in the Hyperion, they.
I sound like I'm British now. My gosh. In the Hyperion, all they did was hang out with each other. And that was like. And then they talked about how they didn't have social lives then either, but it was like, oh, but they're still hanging out. And the idea. I think the. That the. The message that the episode is trying to get across is, oh, but they still had connection to the world because they were still connecting to each other.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Even though angel was mostly in his.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Room, brooding, incredibly codependent and enmeshed, or.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Downstairs in his basement apartment, he was.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Comparing weapons with everybody else is all he was doing.
Sorry. Had to trigger everyone with that. It's like every episode. They're like, I'm gonna grab the bigger weapon. They did it over on Buffy, too. And I was like, no, it was like between Spike and Wood. And I was like, can't get away from this. So stupid anyway. But yeah, that is a good point. They never really did much of anything, but apparently they used to hang out a lot more. So then Wesley is like, hey, Gun. I actually don't want to have to go over anything extra because Gun's like, hey, we have time. We could go over some the portal incantations from the last Monday's Myth rocket retreat. And Wesley's like, I have enough work for one night. Let's not worry about yesterday. So then, as they're all going their separate ways, the elevator dings, the door opens and Lawson walks out, looking much paler, might I add. And we're like, oh, shoot. Like, that was a long time ago. He looks pretty young. Immediately, we're starting to. I like this because immediately you go. You can tell what the ending is. And so it just becomes this train wreck that you're watching, knowing what's going to happen at the very end. So then in the science lab, Fred walks in. Does nobody turn lights on in these office buildings, do they? Is angel really cheap? He's like that dad who goes around and like, shuts off. Oh my God, constantly, and is like.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: I believe it is really around here. He is very cheap. And I was just thinking about the fact that they're getting paid Wolfman Hart salaries now. All of them.
I don't know why that just came to me.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: You literally just thought that. Here we are 13 episodes into this.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Because we were just talking about how they never had any clients and never had any, like, paying people. They were always on the verge of eviction, and now they're all being paid, like, probably nine figure salaries.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah. What are they gonna. But they have nowhere to go.
We've never even seen. Apparently they all live. Do they all still live in the hotel?
[00:21:12] Speaker B: I doubt it.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Where do they live?
[00:21:15] Speaker B: They do. Well, Wesley has his apartment, which he probably upgraded or he didn't. His apartment was nice. Fred probably has her own place. And Gun probably has his own place, for sure.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. But see, that's the weird thing is we never see them anywhere else except for inside of this office building. Like, yeah, at least the show's becoming self aware. So anyway, Lawson's inside of Fred's science lab and he doesn't, you know, immediately threaten her, but he talks about how, like, he used to be really Good with numbers. And Fred tries to make it to the exit. And then he was like, oh, please don't do that, Ms. Burkle. I'd have to stop you. And I was like, they need a panic button in these rooms for situations like this. Because the amount of times that someone has gone into Fred's dark, creepy lab and kidnapped her or done something to her, like, there needs to be a button, like, under the desk, like, in banks where you can just, like.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: I mean, they also need to have just like, a better security, because, really, anybody can walk.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: He's like, you know what? Frankly, that is not anything Station.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Everyone are coming and going. Like, even Spike at the end, he's like, they just let anybody in here.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: They literally do. But also, like, you know how we talk to Google or Siri or whatever? There need to be something where Fred just, like, screams at it and alerts angel or something.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: But that would be the case until never change.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be the case, I guess. Okay. I guess it is, like, what, 2004? They're not gonna have that. Yeah, but it is a science fiction show. We can use our imaginations here.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: And it's like a mystical law firm.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: If there's vampires, they can talk to Google in 2004.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Okay, okay.
All right, all right.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: So then Lawson's like, I came to see your boss. Angel and I are old acquaintances. I was friends with him back in the day, back when he was in his patriotic phase. We're like, what was who's. Back when angel was in SEAL Team. This is the whole inspiration. Oh, my God.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: This is in the future. Is this what he's in? This is what he's doing now.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: 100. 100.
You know, David was like, oh, I really like playing some sort of military thing. And then goes on to do that for the rest of his career.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: Well, he did. Yeah, silly. Booth was police officer.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: He was a Marine.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: A Marine?
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah, he was a Marine. And then he ends up becoming a FBI agent. Anyway. All right, so then we are now back in the hotel, and we see a pile of newspapers on the floor.
And the. Or, no, sorry, we're not back in the hotel. We are back in the the past in Angel's hotel room.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah. He's sitting there in the dark, staring at nothing, and this is how I like. We like him.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: This is how I like him.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: White tank top. Oh, he's got his hair slick to.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: The side, and he looks so sad, and I just want to hug him back, baby, sit on his lap. Oh, you know, give Him a hug, Feel his shoulders, Run my hands up and down his arms.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Like, just rub. Just comfort him.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Comfort him. So hard.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Really hard.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Seriously, this made me long for season two. It's been a long time. I. I think we're gonna end this series and I think that's gonna end up being my favorite episode that we covered. Like, that was just.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Are you now watching again?
[00:24:38] Speaker A: That was a great episode because it was beautiful. But yeah. Anyway, timeline wise. So obviously this episode is happening nine years before the events of. Are you now or have you ever been? It's a few years after the events with Boone, the honorable demon he has a showdown with in blood money when he was beige. Angel, the senorito over the senorita. Yes. And then also the events we saw in Chicago when faith was in his mind. So this is angel at one of the most despondent times of his life, which I think fits very thematically with where he's at in present day as well. So angel is sitting and trying to brood and drink and listen to music. And all of a sudden, music on Sarah.
In his head.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: In his quiet.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: He's got it on his head and he is enjoying nothing and staring at a wall. The door bursts in and all of a sudden a bunch of men come in and they, like, whack him over the table. And then all he does is stand back up and they're like, now when I say, calm down, I'm talking to you. Of course. I'm like, bruh, he is calm. You're the ones that are not.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: And so into his home and threw him across the room. Yeah, this is like Wesley tank top. This is Wesley and Cordelia Button down, shirt down. I mean, off.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: His shoulders are too broad for that.
This reminds me of like, season one with Cordelia and Wesley when they're like, angel, we need to go out. Let's go. And they'd like, force him out and not read his book anymore.
So then they're like, you ever considered joining the war effort? I wrote in my notes, nah. Angel's a pacifist.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: Serious.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: He doesn't believe in war. Angel is just like, no. And they're like, well, that's a shame. Times like these, we can use all the able body men we get. And Angel's like, I'm not a man. And you already know that. And they basically say that they're losing a bunch of ships.
The Allies are. And that the submarines are faster. Hitler's submarines are faster. Angel looks so bored. And they're like, you know Basically. A couple days ago, we managed to capture a German prototype submarine. Angel's like, that's great news. He's like, I'm overwhelmed with joy. Like, bursting. Can't hold it in. And basically they want angel to go down to the submarine and they want to put weights on his feet. And they know that, like, normally that would cause a normal human being's body to burst, but it won't. His don't know why is because he doesn't have a heart that's pumping. Is it because he doesn't.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe he doesn't have blood.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: I feel like.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: I feel like a vampire would. Would convince.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: It's still a human body. Technically, it's just not alive.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: It's not pressurized. Like, it makes no sense, but whatever.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Maybe because there's no oxygen in his body.
[00:27:22] Speaker A: Question.
Theoretically, if. If angel exploded down in the water, there's no. That would be another way to kill a vampire, right? Like, there's no way of coming back from that because all your little bits and pieces get blown away.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Like, if they had to, I'm assuming they would. Poof.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Underwater. Yeah.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So, like, I'd be like, heck no. Techno. But obviously he doesn't have a choice. So they're like, we know that's not a problem for you. We want you to go down there. You've been on our radar for some time. Angelus. Angels, like, names angel to kind of like, you know, solidify to the audience. This is an angel, not Angelus. They're like, you have a soul. Now and then one of the guys says, I represent a relatively new agency, Demon Research Initiative.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: And I was like, oh, so what you're saying is that angel had Riley's job before Riley had his job, and.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Technically was the first vampire tested on before Spike was. So Angel.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Well, they didn't technically test on him, but he did work for the. Like, he.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had Riley Finn's job first.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Damn. Riley's not gonna be happy about that.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: No. Well, Riley can suck it. So.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Another thing he does jealous about.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah, okay.
All right. So Angel's not interested. They're like, we don't care. We need that. Some sub. And basically, you're gonna do it. So they hand a top secret file and they said that they know what has attacked the guys inside of the submarine. Angel sighs. Open the file and reads it. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is Spike 100.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: He's like, spooked. Yeah, he's like, freaking.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Not him.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Spooky.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Spookerine. Let's go get him, Spike. Marine. So then we have, we're down in the submarine and you have all the surviving sailors gathering in a bunking area. Lawson has his pistol, is clearly the one in charge now, and he's like taking care of his men, talking to one of the guys, Hodge, that seems to be the one that he's the closest with, giving them encouragement, telling them not to give up. We see that there's a German soldier there that they've kind of like captured.
And so as they're all talking and they're not sure like what they're going to do, they're not sure what they've seen. They don't know like what it is that took out the captain and the others, although they suspect the German knows. They start to hear this banging noise and they hear, oh, they also hear like their shipmates screaming and stuff. And they're like, shoot, like they're still alive back there. And then at one point Lawson's like, I need to go in there and I need to go save those guys. You know, I once again setting up that this is a noble guy, this guy who's willing to do whatever it takes to save his, his people. But then of course, we have the loud metallic clanging noise and they see that it's inside of the torpedo room and they open up one of the torpedoes and there's angel just like stuffed in there. And apparently he like climbed in from the outside. And so then we cut to Wesley's office. Wesley comes in, sees that Fred is bound and gagged, but doesn't realize until the last minute Lawson is behind him. And Lawson conks him and knocks him out. So the back in the submarine, Angel's out of the torpedo and he's like, he finds out that the captain's dead, finds out Lawson's in charge, and then gives them orders saying that they need to listen to him and they need to help him take over the submarine and get it back up and get the information that's on there back to the Initiative, basically.
And so Lawson tells them that they're all that's left and that there's not much of them to go out against. What they don't know is vampires and the Prince of Lies or whatever. Okay, The Prince of Lies is hysterical to me because he doesn't lie once in this episode. And so I'm like, that would be one of the things. I feel like the Nosferatu looking guy and Prince of Lies were such a disappointment because they were so. They could have been really cool.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: The Nosferatu looking guy is the Prince of Lies.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Oh, you're right. Okay, so Nosferatu and the other guy.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: I don't remember the other one was Rasputin's lover.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Oh, yes, that's right.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah, he was a vampire. He.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Apparently, this show is like, the second time they've said that they've alluded to the fact that Rasputin was a vampire. Makes sense to me. So then Angel's like, all right, Lawson, everyone stay in this room. Keep everyone this room. And he's like, like, I'm. I'm gonna go in there and figure out what these vampires are or these. He doesn't say vampires. I'm gonna go figure out what's happening. Lost in Hands in the guns. Like, you're gonna need this. Angel's like, no, no, son. You take it like you need it better than I.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: You need it.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: He's like, you need it. So then he goes in, shuts the doors behind him, and who walks out but spook?
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Jimmy Neutron.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: So true. He's hair choice to make his hair dark in this episode. So funny.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: And, like, you know, he had to have dyed it that color.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: Are you sure it's not a wig?
[00:32:27] Speaker B: I. It's not a wig. That's definitely his hair.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Is it really?
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Okay, I. I can't tell because William had light brown hair, like, mousy brown hair.
And this is like, oh, I was.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: Speaking outside of the show. But yes, inside the show. He definitely dyed his hair.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Spike.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, Spike must have have gone out of his way to dye his hair.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Black as a kid. Did you ever do the whole thing where you go to the store and you get like, the hairspray that turned your hair a different color and you could like, spray it on your hair and all you had to do is just wash it and would come out and you could like, that's what his hair looks like. But he just sprayed it with that hairspray, like black, like from Walmart or something. Dollar City. And then was like, I'm a Nazi. You know, like, stupid. He's so stupid. He was very entertaining this episode.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: So entertaining.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Spike's like, Angelus. They let anyone in here.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: And he's wearing. At the end of the episode, too. I just realized.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yep. And he's wearing a Nazi uniform. And then he's like, oh, all the bloody faces I expected to see down here. And he's, like, really excited to see.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: He's, like, so happy.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: And Angel's like, you're a Nazi. And Spike's like, oh, no, but I just ate one.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: He's like, oh, if.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so meta. Him putting on another costume. All right, buddy.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: He's got no personality.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Like, he's just gonna take everyone.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Know who I am. I'll just be this for now.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: He was like, hey, I'll channel the master and put on my. My Nazi cloak. I love how he was like, oh, man, they got you, too. He's like, now me in Madrid. Sneaky bastards don't ever go to a Free Virgin Blood party. Turns out it's probably a trap. And Angel's like, you were captured at a Free Virgin Blood party? And Spike's like, I know.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: What does that even mean?
[00:34:11] Speaker A: Thoughts?
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Who would have thought?
[00:34:14] Speaker A: One minute I'm asking a fellow why all the virgins look like gobbles.
Next minute, I'm stuck in a box on this cursed ship.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: What the hell?
[00:34:24] Speaker A: He's like, I feel better knowing they got you, too, though. He's like, good. I'm not. I'm not the only stupid.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: This is literally Spike's funniest shenanigan. Honestly, Even though it's horrific, My favorite.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Part is he does not know what's happening the entire time and still doesn't know by the end.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Happy to be there. Honestly, he had.
[00:34:44] Speaker A: He still has no clue. He's just vibing. Yeah. He's like.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Literally, he's just here.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: It's a party under the sea. We start singing under the sea. Darling, it's better.
[00:34:57] Speaker B: Oh, my God, Spike.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: So funny. And then Angel's like, all right, you're gonna have to introduce me to your friends. Spike's like, okay, but I gotta warn you, they're a little bit stiff. And then he. He opens up, like, the hatch. The next compartment is like, all right, this is Nostrojov and the Prince of Lies. And he's like, prince of Lies is this Angelus? Which Prince of Lies is played by Camden Toy?
[00:35:18] Speaker B: Yay.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Who is one of the gentlemen in Hush Gnarl in same time, same place. And then the Turk, Han in season seven. And he just plays the best character. So I feel like he was kind of wasted in this episode. But, you know, get that bag, Camden. And he's like, all right, the Angelus. And Nostrob is like, oh, Angelus used to be quite the terror back in the day. Haven't heard much of you lately, though. And angels, like, haven't heard much of you ever.
Nostra. I was like, I am Nostra. Of Scourge of Siberia and butcher of Alexander Palace. And he's just like, sorry, who? I was a lover. And angel looks at Spike like, bruh, can we continue on with this? Spike's like, okay, I broke these guys out. Didn't know you were back there. Is there anybody else left back there that we can eat?
And Angel's like, well, there are some men in the torpedo room. Is there anybody alive on your end? Spike's like, no, we just finished them off. And then he's like, hey, let's go and kill the rest of those guys in the torpedo room. And Angel's like, no, we're not going to kill any more humans. At least not right now. He's like, because we're trapped at the bottom of the ocean and we might need them to get us back up to the surface.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Spike's like, how hard could it actually be?
[00:36:28] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Spike's like, I can do it. And he, like, walks over and just starts pushing buttons. Alarm starts to sound. The Prince of Lies, like, holding ears.
[00:36:38] Speaker B: He's overstimulated.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I was gonna say he's my. My little autistic daughter who's, like, got too many loud noises. And it's like, no. She even hisses, too. He's like, let me go. And angel, like, goes over to, like, his toddler, Spike, and, like, slaps his hands away and, like, shuts all the levers off. And then no story off is like, you know what? This Angelus has a point. We'll leave one alive to work the boat, and we'll eat the rest. And Angel's like, no, no, no, we're not today.
And Spike's like, to noster up. He's like, I should probably warn you, he likes to pretend he's the boss. Well, and it is. Yeah, he really is. And then Nostrova's like, you may have made a name for yourself muscling around weaker vampires. And then Spike's like, hang on.
And then no story up is like, but I am nostril. I will tear you out and play coachman. And then Angel's like, yeah, yeah. And then just Dust trusts him. And I was like, wow, what a sad use of that character.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: Seriously.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: So then Angel's like, all right, we don't kill humans till we reach land. Is that clear? Spikes? Spike holds up his middle fingers and says, heil Hitler. I'm like, okay, all right, then.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: But I do a little drama queen.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: He's so dramatic. He's like, all right, boss.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Like, I'm being oppressed right now.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: He definitely feels that way. When does he not feel oppressed? Honestly? Seriously, it's always Angel's fault. You made me the monster I am today.
So then, back in present day, Angel's in his office, sitting at his couch, looking at papers. Lawson walks in, is like, hi. A chief. And, you know, you should remember me. You should remember your crew like the back of your hand. Angel doesn't look one bit surprised. Just like Lawson. And then he's like, you know, aren't you gonna ask me how I got in here? It's so funny the amount of people from Angel's past that looked up to him and, like, come back and are like, look, have daddy issues and are just looking to. For approval. And angel does not care at all.
[00:38:35] Speaker B: No, because he literally told all of. He's like, next time I see you, I'm gonna kill you. Kills all of them.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Now I gotta kill you. Yeah.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: But then, you know, he. They talk about, like, oh, you. You know, so many people break into this building on a regular bas bit basis. Lawson's like, oh, man, I had a whole bit planned about how I was always good with technology. And you of all people should know that. Angel's like, yes, sorry. This place might as well be a bus station. Lawson's like, seems like you're doing pretty well for yourself. It's a far cry from all those years you spent in the gutters eating rats. And Angel's like, oh, you've been following my life. I'm so touched. With absolutely no emotion in his voice, which, again, I like how this parallels the military guys breaking into Angel's apartment. And he was also, like, just not caring about anything. So they're doing a good job of showing that he's, again, at similar places in his life.
So then Lawson says that he's checked in every decade or so. He's surprised that Mr. Vermin Eater is now fighting evil and running Wolfram and Hart. He says, mind explaining that one to me? Those two don't exactly go hand in hand.
Angel says, it's complicated. And Lawson says, oh, we used to live in simpler times, didn't we? Never thought I'd miss being on that sub. Things kind of made sense. Keep your head down. And then we cut back to the submarine where, you know, angel and Lawson are walking through, and they're kind of like, checking and watching each other's back. And angel says to. It's kind of like the idea is we're almost remembering with Lawson. And so angel says, if you follow our lead, we'll all get out of this, all right? And so then they introduce, you know, Lawson to Spike, the Prince of lies. And he says, hey, put these guys to work so we can get out of here. And so while they're all doing that, you have Spike being like, okay, I'm gonna sit where the captain sits. And they're kind of making remarks about how yummy the guys look and how they want to, like, drink them and stuff. And angel is shooting them all dirty looks. And Lawson starts to notice, like, all the bodies at their feet, like his captain and all these people that were his friends. And angel notices it and says, all right, Lawson, let's get these bodies out of here. And they start moving them to the empty bunks. And while they're there and covering them, Lawson's like, hey, I recognize there's a lot going on here I don't understand, but these. These monsters butchered my crew. And apparently they're in the ss. And Spikes or Angel's like, spike's not in the ss. He just likes wearing the jacket. And Lawson's like, but I. I don't understand. Like, this doesn't help me understand why we're working with him and keeping him alive, for that matter. Because again, it's more black and white. Angel says, I got him under control. And Lawson's like, that's not the point. He killed my captain. Angel says, we might be able to use them. We don't have much of a crew left. Again, the same thing that he basically said to Spike, which I really like, because again, it. You get the feeling that angel doesn't. He obviously doesn't care about Spike or Nosferatu or the Prince of Lies, but you would expect him to care about Lawson, but he doesn't.
Which is not like the angel that we feel like we've known. But then we're starting to go, okay, well, how does that relate to real world situations right now with him and his friends?
So then Lawson's like, they're monsters. I don't know why we. And angel cuts them off, says, you don't need to know why we got to bring the sub in. Those are our orders. Isn't that the point? Following orders? Lawson says, there's a difference between orders and purpose. Sir, I didn't sign on because I needed directions. Hell, growing up, I used to make fun of the military boys. Always figured they wouldn't know how to tie their shoes if someone didn't give them a go ahead. Then I saw pictures of what the Krauts were doing evil spreading, sir. And it's not just over there. It was on my ship. It killed my crew and we got to stop it. And I've been scared out of my mind since I signed on for this duty, but I can keep it together. I can even handle dying if I know it's for a greater purpose. An angel says, well, we got a job to do. That job is going to help us win the war. I don't need you to understand every detail, but just know we're fighting on the same side. I need you to trust that I'm going to get us all through this safe and sound.
Yikes.
Which Lawson is so interesting to me because this is a guy that like, I just need to know the why. I just need to see the, like the end goal. Because I can get through anything. I have to have purpose. And I really relate with that. And I, I think that is a very human thing of like, that's why it's all about like when people are tortured or people are in situations where they feel like there is no hope, they give up a lot easier. But if you have hope, you can pretty much hold out for anything else. And purpose gives us hope in a lot of ways. And so this is all pointing back to angel right now and showing that without conviction, he has no purpose and he has. Has no connection to people. And so therefore he has no reason why and no hope for anything getting better, which is just really, really bleak.
So then back present day, Lawson's still talking to angel and he says, safe and sound. Guess now's the time to argue semantics. Semantics, is it? Did you care about any of it? The ship, the mission, the men? Or were you just in it to try and save your own ass? Angel's bored. He's like, what do you want, Lawson? And Lawson says, same thing I've always wanted to understand. And he says, why do we do what we do? How do you manage to always. And then angel kicks the coffee table, ends up grabbing a splintered leg and then jumping onto Lawson and is about to stake him. And then Lawson's like, are you sure you want to do that? Angel's like, hey, I told you that if I saw. Ever since I first. Well, he didn't say that. He says, I would kill you. Let me say that again. He just said, fairly certain. I said, I'd kill you if I ever saw you again. And Lawson's like, okay, but you know, would I really come in here with unarmed and with no plan? And then he takes him to the conference room. And then we see gun Fred and Wes standing on office chairs, bound and gagged. And listen, let me tell you, standing on an office chair is really, really hard to do without losing your balance with them swiveling. So I would have been decapitated like, the instant he walked out of that room.
One time, I had to go to the emergency room because I had a really bad anaphylactic reaction to ants, where I, like, passed out and everything. And I had the, like, couple days before, stood on an office chair and it had swiveled and I had fallen and bruised, like, the entire length of my, like, shin. And my. And the nurses were, like, asking me questions about whether I was safe at home because they were like, why would.
[00:44:58] Speaker B: You do that, Sarah?
[00:44:59] Speaker A: I. Because I was putting up a picture on a shelf and I was being stupid. But the nurses were like, how'd that happen? Are you safe at home? I was like, yeah, that was me. I was being stupid.
So, guys, don't stay in an office chair now.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Bad idea.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's also really stupid because angel could have just staked Lawson and then come untied the gang. Like, Lawson didn't really have anything on him, but whatever, it's okay.
So then Lawson's like, hey, that's wire around their necks. And then if I bump them or anything happens, they're basically going to get knocked over and decapitated. Angel's like, what do you want from me? Like, this is not the way to get what you want. And then Lawson says, already getting it. The worry in your eyes. Fear of what might happen next, which is right on the mark, because I got a funny feeling there's going to be some blood spilled tonight. Back to the submarine. Lawson's checking on his crew, and, you know, everything's kind of going as planned. And Spike is over there still eyeing them like lunch. And he's like, hey, we've played nice. I'd really like a chance to be able to. To eat them now. And an Angel's like, no, you cannot. And Spike's like, well, I want to be called captain. And then he, like, looks over at the other sailors and he's like, well, I mean, I did eat the captain. And Hodge gets really angry, and angel sees that. And Lawson's like, okay, Hodge, you need to go check the torpedoes and stuff or not. Sorry, let me say that again. Hodge stands angrily, but Lawson's up, stopping him. And Angel's like, okay, Spike, go check the torpedoes before I stuff you in a tube. And Send you for a swim.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Such a child.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: I.
I think it's really interesting and I'm curious your thoughts. So this entire time, Lawson, like, he does ask angel, like, hey, why are we doing this? But if I were him, I would be questioning majorly why the vampires listen to Angel. Like, what is it? Like, why would they. Because obviously Lawson's listening because he thinks that angel comes from command, from, like, his chain of command. But why would Spike in the other speed. Like, that would cause some sort of doubt to enter my mind on whether or not angel is who he says he is. Yeah.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: But I guess in a situation like this where they're under pressure, I feel like if Angel's giving him the answers, like, he's less likely to let the doubt come forward first.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Like, do you think. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do you think Lawson, though, like, Lawson.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Thinks it for the greater good. Like, I think he, like, his thought is, I need to stop more people from dying. And this guy seems to be able to help. Help. So maybe he's just, like, ignoring the fact that, right. The creatures also listen to Angel.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: My gut is telling me that Lawson, being black and white, doesn't understand that there might be someone who, like, is maybe more gray. Maybe he's thinking you're either good or bad. And angel, like, checked all the boxes. So therefore I'm just gonna blindly follow him.
Which is an interesting statement because the episode doesn't really explore that. And I kind of wish they had, like, the. The dangers of having too much of a black and white of thinking through things. Right. Because they obviously are talking about how, like, their shades of gray. But.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: But I also feel like in terms of military, I mean, we see it with Riley and those boys too. I feel like as soon as somebody drops a credential, they kind of just.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: Part of the go along with it.
[00:48:17] Speaker B: Like, they're taught not to question. Right. They're taught to just like, this is the command and you're supposed to do it. And I think that's kind of where Lawson's coming from, because when angel first comes in, he. He speaks their language.
And that, I think, gains their trust in him. And like I said, like, they're kind of trained to just take the command and do what you're told. And I think that's. Angel has, like, a very authoritative presence too, so.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: And angel speaks with conviction, but his conviction is coming from, I want to get off the submarine. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's. That's a really great comparison back to Riley and the initiative and, yeah, I don't know why I didn't think about that, but, yeah, because, well, this next scene, you have Lawson kind of being like, hey, you seem to kind of, like, know these guys from before. Angel immediately shuts down any sort of questioning, and Lawson's like, well, I just want to make sure that this boat gets where it's going. That and my crew are all that matters. So, yeah, I think you're right. He's very much like, hey, I will do what needs to be done. I will kind of turn a blind eye to everything.
Yeah. So then angel asks how the crew is holding up, and Lawson's like, well, they knew that they could die. They're good men. They'll keep it together. They'll follow orders, or they'll have me to answer to. And Angel's like, good. Everybody keeps their cool. We might just make it out of this. Then we hear a man scream from the next room. They run in. The Prince of Lies is beating up the German, and the Prince of Lies holds up a report and says, you think I don't know I'm as ancient as the darkness itself? And he says, they dare conceive such violations upon my temple. So then angel ends up fighting the Prince of Darkness. Lawson pulls his gun on him, shooting the Prince of Lies several times. And then the Prince of Lies knocks Lawson down, turns back to the German, and then angel ends up staking him. And they end up looking at. Spike comes in, and they end up looking at the pieces of paper to see what's going on. And they realize that it is plans from the Nazis that I love, essentially.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Who. Who's questioning this guy, too?
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just too perfect, right? And then Lawson's, like, translating a little bit for them, too, because he speaks German and stuff. And they find out that they're, like, plans, basically, essentially for the. The chip. He says something about stimulation and control. They've been experimenting on them and cutting into their brains. And Spike's like, that's what's got the Prince cornet in a twist. Found out you were going to pop our tops and melon ball us. And Lawson says they're trying to create an army out of things like you vampires and spikes. Is that explains why they nicked us? Cream of the crop. Cream of the crop. Giving himself, like, okay.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: So they do kind of explain it, because we were talking about this in the Discord the other day, how, like, what was the Initiative's, like, ultimate plan when it came to this?
[00:51:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it was always an army.
[00:51:03] Speaker B: Sense to make an army, huh?
[00:51:05] Speaker A: Yeah, because they're military.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: They're, like, throwing around ideas. And nobody. Nobody brought up this episode. And it's probably because a lot of people don't watch it many times. But.
[00:51:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, we know that was always the plan. I think it was alluded to, wasn't specifically said, but Maggie Walsh was very clearly trying to create. Because it's this idea of let's take something that is really bad and let's use it for good. But they're doing. They're taking away free will and autonomy and choice, and they're torturing and all this other stuff. Yeah, they want to build an army of vampire slaves. You start at the top with the generals. And it's implied that I think by the end of this episode that they were able to do a little bit of it, and it helped turn the tide for the war. And that's partially why World War II was won. Which is really interesting for them to kind of write that in there and be like, hey, there's a precedence for this. Right?
[00:52:01] Speaker B: So.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: And then the Initiative probably expands after that. It's like, oh, can we do this with more than just vampires? Can we actually, like, create our own.
Our own demon and man hybrid? And so then we can actually get to their brain and control it. And Adam. Yeah, just like that. Perfect specimen, right?
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: They're like, ah, yes, this is what we wanted.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Ah, yes, Adam.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: So then Lawson says, it's not enough to what you're already doing in the world to the German, is it? Only you and your Fuhrer could have come up with something this sick. The German laughs, and angel responds back to him. And Lawson gets angry at angel and says, you knew about this? And angel says, it was part of the mission. Spike's like, hang on, he did. And Spike's like, what mission? Oh, I get it. You're playing both sides against each other. And then Angel's like, spike. And Spikes like, no, I respect that. But if the Yanks are after this stuff, too, I'm eating a lot of them. So, you know, again, in case we all were not sure from season four of Buffy the Initiative are the bad guys because they got their bad ideas from the Nazis.
So then we find out, okay, that's the other reason why they want angel on this ship, is they want the plans, which is just. It's very, very clever. Nice way of, like, adding in more lore to stuff that's already been established in the show.
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Yeah, very cool.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: All right, so Spikes, like, I'm Gonna go eat the rest of them. Angel says, no, you're not. And then he walks towards Lawson, who pulls his gun. Spikes is, try and stop me. Angel says, spike, we need them. And Spike says, and I'm not getting experimented by his government. After angel says, I'm not getting trapped at the bottom of the sea. Lawson says, we wouldn't do that. You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win by doing what's right.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: Oh, sweet summer child.
[00:53:42] Speaker A: Poor Lawson. You're new here. Yeah.
You're new.
And then Spike's like, yeah, well, let me know how that works out for you, Popeye. Angel says, none of this matters. You people are getting this. Yeah, Popeye is actually in a fantastic reference. He does look like Popeye with his hair.
He just needs his pipe. It's so funny.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: Sometimes Spike will just say just the perfect thing.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah, he's so funny.
And then Angel's like, none of this matters. You. Your people are getting this ship and their men on board that are still alive. That's all. He tells Spike to torch it. The script, or like the. Not the script, but the transcript just talks a lot about how, like, we don't actually see that the report burns all the way. It actually gets stopped. So it's implied that angel gets the rest of it, or somehow the military gets the rest of the.
The plans. So then as it's burning, Spike starts to sing. I think it's like God Save the King or something. And then we hear an explosion. Lawson and Spike and Angel end up taking off to go see what's happening. And Hodge says that they're now being bombed, basically. And so then they all are like, okay, we need to dive. We need to get down, make sure we don't get hit. But of course, they do kind of get hit. And then all of a sudden, like, water starts flooding in. They're like the propulsion motors down. We're dead in the water. Angel's like, well, go get it back up. And Lawson's like, I. I'm not sure if I can. And Angel's like, get sure fast. So then Lawson takes off. I always love how, like, in these movies, there's always some or shows. There's always something you can do. There's never a. Hey. Like, there's absolutely nothing we can do right now.
So then another explosion impacts the sub, and they start taking on water. And so angel and Spike head out to kind of secure the other compartments so that they don't go down in another part of the sub. Lawson has his toolbox and is trying to fix some stuff. And as he's doing that, the they notice that the German is missing. And he ends up coming in and stabbing Lawson in a way that we're like, oh, there's no coming back for this. Like, he's. He's dead. Dead. So then back in the conference room in modern day, Lawson is continuing to lecture angel while pacing in front of the captives. And Lawson says, funny what goes through a man's mind when his life's hanging in the balance. Boys talked about that a lot back on the boat. Always figured it'd be the special moments you freeze in time. Your mom singing you to sleep at night, sneaking to the movies with your best friend. He says, but the truth is, the only thing that really goes through your head is, wow, this really sucks.
And then you're gone. So then back in the submarine, angel comes in and sees that Lawson is dying. And Lawson's, of course, like, you know, I'm all right, I got this.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: He's like, to cough up blood.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. He's like, we're dead without the propulsion. Angel says, tell me what to do. And Lawson says, I'm the only one. I'm not going to let any more die. I can fix it. And angel kind of stares at him and goes, I know you can. And then he just bites Lawson, like, without even just really thinking about it. It's like this desperation of, like, I'm not going to die today. And I love how, like, clear the episode makes it that Angel's doing this to save his own skin. This isn't some noble act.
Yeah, it's pretty dark. Pretty dark. So then now the submarine, Everything seems to be.
[00:57:04] Speaker B: Wait, you actually think it's just angel doing it to save his own skin? Or you don't think there's any part of him that's doing it? Because there's other people on the submarine that have to, like, make it.
Because I.
I don't think it's completely to save his own skin because he could have just let Spike and the other people eat the other humans and kept Lawson alive.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: I don't know that he did, because everybody in that crew did something to bring the submarine up. Like, we don't know enough about them to know if they, like, were really as valuable as angel, them to be. So I guess there is room for argument. But I guess the way I rate it is I really don't. I don't think angel cares.
[00:57:48] Speaker B: But, you know, he cares if they die. But I'm just Trying to think of, like, the fact that he, like, he tried to go back to killing humans with Darla and he couldn't bring himself to do it. So it's like, does he really not care that these humans would die otherwise? Like, I just don't.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Maybe, maybe, maybe he does. I don't know. I. I just. This episode is working really hard to convey that angel just doesn't care about anything. And it's going to be another nine years of not caring about anything before he gets to the hotel, you know? Like, I don't. I don't know. Like, I don't think it's within the. Like, I think it is within the realm of possibilities that angel would just not care. But also, like, I guess he could too, you know? Yeah, that would ruin the reading of the episode. But, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you listeners, you can let us know. Do you guys think angel cares or do you think he doesn't? Like, yeah, I think it's up for interpretation.
So then everything's saved. Yay. Everybody's sitting on the floor, exhausted. Spike and angel are watching them, waiting. The airstrikes about gone. Spike says, your new boy better get the engines running before the fish start flopping. We can tell all of the sailors are, oh, I guess the airstrike is gone. But, like, the sailors are running out of air. And then Spike's like, hey, that one looks like he's about dead. Can I. Can I eat him now?
And then we hear the engine start up. Angel says, get them on their feet. We need to surface.
And then angel walks into the engine room where Lawson's putting his uniform shirt back on. He says, you did it. And Lawson says, told you I could. And it's, like, completely emotionless. And he says, thanks, chief. We're surfacing. And, like, the actor does such a good job of making Lawson appear so much colder, more calculating. Like there was a. A naive earnestness to Lawson before he became a vampire, and now it's just. Just everything's, like, shut down. It was really chilling.
Angel says, we're out of air crews not going to make it if we don't vent. Lawson says, they swore to give their lives for their country, just like me. Besides, I'm hungry. Angel says, they're still your men. Lawson says, but they're not the mission, are they? I thought that was a really, really good line. He's like, well, they're not important to the mission, so why should it matter? And I also do love the parallels to Angel. Like, you can't forget about people in your fight for the mission, because it's like.
[01:00:09] Speaker B: And that's, like, this interaction is why I feel like angel does care. Like, this is an instance of angel being, like, not swayed by humanity, but feeling, like, a little bit closer to humanity. It's almost like he looked at Lawson's example and was kind of, like, intrigued by it, you know?
[01:00:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Where he was like, yeah, maybe Lawson kind of, like, cracked that shell a little bit and gave him a little bit of hope. Yeah.
[01:00:36] Speaker B: And then nine years later, he met Judy, and then so on and so forth. Right. Like, that's why I just. I don't. I don't view angel as being completely uncaring here. Like, yes, he's there against his will because he was forced to go there, but I think no matter what, he wasn't gonna let the humans, like, more humans die.
[01:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Because I think that would have just, like, added to his guilt.
[01:01:01] Speaker A: Or could it be that angel doesn't necessarily care about the other guys, but he kind of, like, has guilt about changing Lawson and then thus changing Lawson's ideals, and so mostly wants Lawson to save the other people because it absolves him of his own guilt. Like.
Yeah. It's not necessarily that he cares about the people. It's more that he's just like, Lawson's changed nature points back to what. The ugliness of what angel did, you know? Yeah. Not that I'm, like, trying to be like, Angel's just that cold, unfeeling monster.
[01:01:31] Speaker B: No.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: I just think it's interesting. Like, the different things. Like, it's ambiguous. We don't really know fully what angels thinking.
[01:01:37] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[01:01:38] Speaker A: Which to me, is the most interesting part of this episode, because there's not really much else.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:01:42] Speaker A: But it kind of also brings everything around to, like, if nothing we do matters speech. Like, then all that matters is what we do. Like, you can't forget about these people. And it's supposed to, like, remind angel that his friends are an important driving force. Force in the mission. They help give you passion and purpose. You can't just worry about the mission because people are the mission, you know?
[01:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:03] Speaker A: So then angel, like, catches Lawson's punch when he denies him of breakfast. And he's like, you're new at this. I'm not. Let's take a walk.
And then as the surface or the submarine surfaces in the night, angel escorts Lawson down the hallway. Spinelli opens the hatch, climbs back down the ladder, and Lawson looks at his shipmates and goes, they look smaller. And angel says eight hours to sunrise, 20 miles from land. Lawson says, I just might make it. And angel says, hey, I'm sorry for what happened, but if I ever see you again, I'm gonna have to kill you. Lawson says, II Chief. Take good care of her. Talking about the. Or talking to the crew about the ship. She's a good bow. And so then he leaves.
Yeah. And that was. I wrote this in my notes. Do you think angel doesn't kill Lawson because he doesn't care? Or is it out of guilt? Or is it both? Or does he care? Like, I don't know. What's your take on this?
[01:02:57] Speaker B: I don't know. I feel like angel almost has, like, a. Like, a soft spot for vampires that he's made. Like, he has a soft spot for, like, Drusilla or, like, Pen or I guess Lawson now, where he almost, like, doesn't want to kill them because he. He made them, so he lets them go. But then if they. Like, if he sees them again, like, he has to, because then he can't avoid that they're evil vampires. I don't know. I think. I think it's just kind of like a. A vampire thing, maybe. I don't know.
[01:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. What do you think?
[01:03:34] Speaker A: I don't know. I. I truly don't know. I feel like each time I would watch this, I'd probably come up with something different. I.
I think how we see him in the future, it leads me towards the fact that he just doesn't really care about Lawson. It's just more out of guilt. But then he also doesn't really seem to feel a lot of anything with Lawson in the future. Like, there's. There's no guilt. It's just like, I did what I had to do. Like, and maybe it's because he's in the same headspace. So I don't know.
Yeah. Critically touched. Said something that. That was really interesting. They said that just because angel has a soul and doesn't sadistically kill people anymore doesn't mean that he actually cares about people just because he's, like, not killing them. And I was like, oh, like.
[01:04:11] Speaker B: Like.
[01:04:12] Speaker A: And then he talk. They talk about, are you now or have you ever been where, like, he actually cared enough to help somebody and then gets betrayed and then just leaves all the people for dead.
[01:04:22] Speaker B: Well, yeah. I mean, I can. I can kind of agree with that. Like, the. The part about just because he has a soul doesn't mean he cares about people, because I don't think I Think what's so significant about his relationship with Buffy is that that was the first time he actually cared about someone.
[01:04:37] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[01:04:38] Speaker B: But I don't think angel doesn't care about people dying. You know, Like, I think that's the part that I'm kind of stuck on, where it's like, I don't think angel would, like, sit back and let somebody die. But I don't think he necessary necessarily cares about the people themselves.
[01:04:54] Speaker A: But doesn't he kind of do that by letting Lawson walk free? He knows Lawson's gonna go kill people.
[01:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that's where it comes in that, like, he. He's the one that sired Lawson. Right. He has this, like, weird bond with the people that he sired.
[01:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:08] Speaker B: That he feels some type of responsibility over them. I don't know.
[01:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's pretty interesting.
Critically touched. Talks about how, if you think about it, Sam Lawson is more of an annoyance to angel than a tragedy he created. But now completely the opposite of his optimistic ideology. From late season two, angel can't be bothered with the small stuff as he is too worried about the big picture. What he has yet to understand is that all the small stuff combined makes the big picture, which is really the what we do speech. But angel seems to have kind of forgotten that a little bit.
Then, of course, spikes over here, slow clapping like, bloody brilliant. Turn the poor sod to save the ship. Then make him dash for dry land before Mr. Sunshine scorches him a new one. He looks at angel and says, you're still a dick. Angel nods and says, yeah, I am. And then you're like, steps aside and just like, ladder's all yours.
And interesting. In looking up the timeline, apparently this is the last time that angel and Spike see each other until school hard in sunny. So crazy, crazy, Spike takes off. You know, we all know he makes it, unfortunately.
And then we get to back to the conference room, Lawson still talking, and says, did they at least torture you? Please tell me they did. Angel says, never gave them a chance. Jump ship off the coast of Maine. Went underground till the war was over. Lawson says, like any other coward, angel says, wars are won and lost by men. Lawson says, you mean like me? No, wait, that doesn't apply anymore, does it? Angel says, I never wanted to do this to you. And Lawson says, oh, put your hanky away. I know how important the technology they pulled from the sub was to helping us stop the Germans. Sounded like a fair shake. One person damned to make the world safe for future Generations.
I really, again, really like the callbacks to the initiative and stuff, too.
So then he looks over at Angel's gang and says, except for these guys. Angel says, killing them is not going to change the past. Lawson says, but it'll hurt you. Maybe that's enough. Angel says, never is. Lawson says, then maybe I found my mission again after all these years. And then Angels like being an evil son of a. Not keeping you busy. Lawson says, we all need a reason to live, even if we're already dead. Mom, apple pie, the Stars and stripes. That was good enough for me till I met you. Then I had this whole creature the night thing going for me. The joy of destruction and death. And I embraced it. I did all the terrible things a monster does. And through it all, I felt nothing. 60 years of blood dying in my. Drying in my throat like ashes. So what do you think? Is it me, Chief, or does everyone you sire to feel this way? Kind of like I feel bad for him a little bit. Like, even though he's awful. And then angel says, you're the only one I ever did this to after I got a soul. And then Lawson has, like, this, like, brief little bit of, like, hope. And he's like, do I have one, too?
And angel goes, I don't think it works that way, son. And then Lawson says, didn't think so. And he punches Angel. They start to fight, and then eventually, angel throws Lawson to the ground. And Lawson says, you gave me just enough, didn't you? Enough of your soul to keep me trapped between who I was and who I should be. I'm nothing because of you. He charges him again. And of course, you know, angel throws him through a window because why can we not have an episode without a window breaking? You just always gotta have a window that's destroyed. And so then Lawson lands in the lobby and he grabs a shaft. A splintered window frame makes a stake. And angel says, you really wanted to end like this? Lawson said, sounds like a plan. And then angel is grabbing his wrist before Lawson can make contact with his chest. Chest forcibly turns the stake till so it's pointing at Lawson's chest. And Lawson, it's almost like he's letting angel in a way. He looks at angel and says, come on, Chief, give me a mission. And then angel just says nothing and pounds the stake into Lawson's chest.
That's really sad.
So then later on, Angel's sitting at the edge of his chair, looking out, out the window. Spike comes in. Is like, really ought to do something about security. They'll let anybody in here, won't they? Walks up to Angel's side. They both look out of the skyline.
Spike says that Fred gave him the Cliff Notes. He's like, so sailor boy finally came back for a yo ho ho diddy. Angel says, finally came back. And Spike says, took him long enough. No, revenge is best served cold and all, but his must have been frozen solid. I like that Captain America reference again about Cap being like frozen and. And stuck in time. Yeah. So then angel says, I don't think that's what he was after. And then Spike says, no. Then what was he looking for? And then angel whispers a reason. And then they both just turn and look out.
[01:09:50] Speaker B: That's a great shot.
[01:09:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Again, the. The best moments of the season so far have been between angel and Spike. Honestly, when they're impressive and everything, they.
[01:09:59] Speaker B: Have the best dynamic. Honestly.
[01:10:01] Speaker A: But I can't help, baby. Like, I wrote my notes and there it is. The angel couldn't really give him a purpose, a reason. I was like, cuz he's purposeless. We know. And like all caps.
[01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, but also Lawson is evil. Like, what purpose is angel gonna give him?
[01:10:17] Speaker A: But then there's a part of me that's like, you have so many resources at Wolfram and Hart, you can't like get a shaman or somebody who can do the same spell that Willow did and re insoul him.
[01:10:28] Speaker B: Yeah, but angel knows what it is to have a soul and how painful it is. I don't think he would ever put that on to somebody.
[01:10:35] Speaker A: But I want him to.
[01:10:36] Speaker B: Willingly.
[01:10:37] Speaker A: But I want him to.
[01:10:38] Speaker B: Well, he wouldn't. Because he knows how much you suffer when that happens. Especially if you've lived for however many years. Lawson has lived hundreds of years of. Not hundreds, but like a few decades to a century of being an evil vampire. Like, that's not gonna be great when you honestly back.
[01:10:57] Speaker A: Well, wait, with. With who? Like what we seen of Lawson, I like, wouldn't put it past him to as soon as he was in soul to just stake himself because he was just in so much misery.
[01:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah. But man, it really is a great episode. It's entertaining to watch. It's got a great message. It's just poorly placed. And it's really hard too, because again, we've heard this message so many times and we're not really learning anything new about angel. So.
[01:11:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know know. Let us know your thoughts, listeners. Do you guys think that angel is not caring about humans in this episode? Do you think he is. Do you think he's motivated by guilt?
Yeah. Do you guys think that Lawson should have been insold? Because I know Leia's right, but I kind of wish he was, but. Yeah. Do you guys like this episode? I know that for a lot of people, it's very much. This is not the best episode of the season, and I. I really don't blame them, but I also think there's worse ones, but. Yeah. But next week, we have prophecy girls joining us for Smile Time, which I'm really excited about. It's gonna be so much fun.
Yeah. And then after that, the season really ramps up. It's gonna be pretty fun.
Pretty fun. So. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoy enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast, and you can email [email protected].
