Show Notes
Join Sarah and Lea as they answer listeners' questions and comments and discuss their feelings on Season 4 of Angel.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we are doing our season four recap where we talk all things season four. Probably, you know, story lines that happened in one, two, and three, as well as they pertain to season four. And we're also going to talk some spoilers about season five as well. Kind of the fallout of the season and our thoughts going into it and everything. But, yeah, I was gonna say this is our last season recap, but I guess technically at the end of season five, we'll kind of go back, but it'll be more of a series recap as well.
But, yeah. Leia, how did this rewatch for season four?
How did it turn out for you versus how you were anticipating it turning out?
Well, starting us off real strong here.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah, seriously. Thanks.
Well, if we're going off of this rewatch, I would say that I enjoyed season four more than season three, and I think it has a lot to do with the Faith stuff. In this season, I was expecting, like, the first 10 episodes to not be that great, and then everything after that was, like, better. So I feel like I wasn't as, like. I don't want to say disappointed, but I wasn't as, like, shocked as I was at season three. So I actually enjoyed this season more, and I find that there's a lot more positive in season four than in season three. I wouldn't say it's, like, my favorite season, but I think it's interesting. I think there's obviously huge flaws in the season, but overall, I think a lot of things happen, especially with Faith, like I said, that bump this up for me and make it, like, worthwhile ultimately. So that's kind of how I feel. I don't know. How do you feel?
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I. I kind of feel like I went into this season being, like, super bummed out by season three and being like, oh, season four is going to be a lot better. But I also didn't remember it as much as you did, and so I didn't expect for it to be so bad right off the bat, like, those first 10 episodes. Like, I remembered the very beginning, but then I didn't remember a whole lot of that. And so I think my memory was a little bit like, oh, like the Cordy and Connor stuff, but then everything else is, like, pretty good. I Like that. And so I think that, like, after being so tired, season three and then the first half of season four, I think I just, like, hit a wall. Like, we all know. We don't. We all know what I'm referring to. I hit a wall. And Apocalypse now is. Yes, the episode that you named. Yes, the episode that broke me. Apocalypse Now. Ish. And then was awakening after that, or. I don't know. Awakening was also rough.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Awakening was right after that. So it's like those episodes happening and then just like the slog of this, like, the first half of the season, I think it just.
It was like, it was really difficult. And I've been podcasting. I was telling Leia, like, I've been podcasting for five years. And I think the second half of season three to the first half of season four is a rough, rough stretch for the show. It truly, truly is. The Jasmine arc and then obviously, Faith and stuff like that, I enjoyed a lot more, but I don't think it was enough to redeem the season for me. But I kind of agree with you. I think that those bits were better or made season four better than season three, which, like, the Darla arc was frankly super disappointing in season three. Like, I remember us liking one or two of those episodes, but then, like, Holtz Takes a Backseat and Connor, all that. We talked about it, but yeah. So I think. I think maybe my expectations are too high. I think I was just feeling burnout from season three. Also. We started season six of Buffy, so it was just, like, doing a lot of, like, really heavy, dark stuff where the show's not quite at its peak. I think just was like, oh, my gosh, this is a lot. So all that to say, I did enjoy aspects of season four a lot more than season three, but this was. This was a rough one for me.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the biggest problem with, like, doing a podcast about, especially, like, this section of the show is that we can't, like, binge watch these episodes. We're watching them on a week by week basis. We have to wait and then we have to talk about them in, like, excruciating detail. And I think as people who are, like, fans of the show, like, we're. We're. We podcast about it, but we're also, like, we were fans first. You love watching the show. We're talking about it for sure. And I think having to do this at such a slow pace, and I know that we even sped things up because we doubled up on a lot of episodes, but I think this Season in particular is best watched as a binge. It just is. Especially the first 10 episodes. If you watch them back to back, you're just kind of getting through that slog. But when you watch them on a week by week basis, it's like, oh, my goodness, it just feels kind of never ending. And there's so much about it that's uncomfortable. And I agree. I think season three was really rough for us. And just coming into it, I think we were both maybe expecting a little bit more. Like, we were just so excited to be done season three and we were so excited to get into season four. And I think it was just, I just think the, like, the way that we have to watch it for the podcast plays a big role role in why it's such a slog. And like, I do wonder if, like a few years down the line I rewatch this season and I binge it and I just watch the whole thing in a matter of like a week. I wonder if that would like, change my opinion about the first 10 episodes.
But yeah, it's. It was rough, for sure.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think also, I mean, not only are we podcasting, which automatically makes it a little bit different than just watching the episode because I think we were talking about yesterday where you watch an episode, you have to take notes. You have to at least understand what's happening in the show and also, like, how the characters are progressing or not progressing. Even if you're not doing an analytical episode or podcast like we are, even if you're just podcasting, you're going to be doing that stuff. And so you're kind of immersed in this world, but take that. And then now we're, we're doing more of an analyzing an analytical type of podcast. So we're really looking closely at it. And so when there are stories that don't really have depth and substance, like, I can't just pull things out of my butt, like, you know, if it's not there, it's not there. If there's not substance, then you're kind of just stuck deeply analyzing this show that is not living up to the potential and it's not bringing out all the things that you loved about the show in the first place. So I think it's been eye opening, I think, for, for both of us. And I know for me on Buffy is doing a podcast on a show is vastly different than just watching as a casual observer. And it's something that I will, will always have grace for podcasters. Now when I listen to rewatch podcasts 100%.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: And I also think it's just we have to, like, remind ourselves and also our listeners that, like, at the end of the day, we will. We're gonna have our, like, biases. We're gonna have our preferences. We're gonna have our characters that we like and our characters that we don't like and that might not align with, like, what you guys like, and that's okay. You know, like, at the end of the day, we can't be completely objective. Also, like, I watch these shows because I have an emotional investment in the characters and in the storylines. So it's like, sometimes that emotional investment, it comes from, like, a negative place. Like, sometimes it's not positive. And I'm not gonna sit here and, like, pretend that it is in order to be, like, objective. Although I think we try to be as objective as we can be. But at the end of the day, like, we're fans, the rest of people. Yeah. And, like, we're gonna have our preferences. We're gonna have the things that, like, we like, and that's going to always kind of leak through our analysis. It's, like, impossible for it not to, you know.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Yep. So looking forward to season five, which we'll talk about in a second. I'm trying to temper my expectations. I remember historically liking season five, but I'm also recognizing that I will probably view it slightly differently, whether positively or negatively, because I'm going to be podcasting about it. So. Yeah.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Right.
I'm excited for season five also. Historically, I've also really liked season five, and I think just, like, looking over the episode list with. When we were looking over it to, like, kind of make our plan and schedule stuff, I was just, you know, seeing episode after, and I was getting really excited about every episode. And I think what's really great first about season five for me is, like, the standalone episodes are so fun.
And, like, surprisingly, I'm very excited for Spike. I'm very excited for Spike.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: I just think so different from the very beginning of the start of the show.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, seriously, like, I'm. I'm excited for that new dynamic. Like, I just think season five is going to be, like, refreshing, and we're kind of going to be going back to, like, the season one model of, like, you know, monster of the week episodes, the standalones. Obviously, there's going to be, like, the overarching story, but it's not as much of a focus as the last few seasons have been. So I'm excited. I. I'm excited I hope that it's not. I hope that, like, doing it this way is not gonna. It's not gonna be kind of the same, but I. I doubt that it will be because historically I've really enjoyed the season.
And from what I remember, like, I know we'll have criticisms, obviously, because it's not perfect, but as far as enjoyability, I think we're gonna. It's gonna be better, for sure.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I. I totally agree. I'm very excited.
All right, so as always, we have you guys send in your thoughts, your questions, comments, all that stuff, and you guys delivered. You always ask the best things. So we have. Danny Lozano says, what could have been different with Connor this season to like him better.
And that's a very good question.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: I don't know. It's hard. It's hard because I feel like as soon as they brought Connor back from Kurtoth, he was like, set up to fail almost. He was set up to, like, for people not to like him. I think a big part of the reason he's so hard to like this season is because he's so wrapped up in just the most, like, crazy drama, like with Cordelia, with Angel, with, you know, I don't know, it's a lot of the same stuff. And I think the character suffers from only having scenes with Cordelia and she's just manipulating him, and then only having scenes with angel and they're just fighting. And there's. There's just like no reprieve in between. There's no, like, periods of time where you. Where the audience, I guess, gets to spend time with Connor in like, a likable manner, like where he's lighter or like, you get to see more of his personality that isn't antagonistic. So I don't know, I feel like in order to change Connor's storyline, you have to change Cordelia's, you have to change Angels. You have to change the overall, like, season story. So I think the character honestly was just set up to fail from the very beginning. And it would have to be like a complete overhaul of the character. I know that when Prophecy Girls was on, they said that a different actor might have done the trick, but honestly, even if the actor was incredibly good looking and white and ripped and I don't know what a ripped white boy from the wb, I think just the way that the character was written, just. It wasn't. I don't think you're meant to like him very much, you know?
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is so sad because such. It's such A good idea on paper, but then once they actually went around to implementing it. Yeah, you're so right about. And I'll talk about this later with my ideas about what they could have done with Cordelia for this season. But so much of Connor's arc was intertwined with Cordelia's, and because they knew they needed to get Connor to the very end where he's absolutely despairing. And they also needed to figure out what to do with Charisma Carpenter, or as Cordelia being pregnant, they had to figure out something to do with her that didn't require a lot of physicality. So they needed something that required a lot of dialogue. So they made her very, like a manipulative with her words and a lot of monologuing. And so those two ended up getting put together.
But, yeah, it's just. It's very difficult because, yeah, he's so entangled with everybody else that you really would have had to vastly change Cordelia's story arc in order for Connors to have any sort of breathing room. I think. I do think a hotter adder, hotter actor would have been more beneficial, I think, possibly. And this is not a dig against Vincent Kartheiser, because I think he's an amazing actor, but I think maybe a more charismatic actor would have helped a little bit with connecting the audience to him, because I feel like Vincent Kartheiser did way too good of job, too good of a job of playing that, like, smug soul and teenager. And I think we needed something else apart from that. Like, I wonder if they were trying to make him kind of broody a la angel, but you need. You need some charm.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: He just came off as, like, petulant a lot of the time.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: And there was very little charisma. I. I agree totally.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I think that at the very least, they could have done something to humanize him a little bit and give him layers. Like, for the first part of season three, like the first third, he was just out on the streets and not even really a part of the overall storyline. And so I think it would have been really interesting if they'd given him some sort of story to go along with that. So that, I mean, we start off season four and we. Did I say beginning of season three. I meant beginning of season four. Sorry, my bad. Beginning of season four, we start off season four with, like, angel being way down under the water, and then he comes back and Connor gets shoved to the streets. And so we have no opportunity, a chance to like this kid. Starting from this season. And so I think that, like, I mean, maybe even showing more time of him bonding with Gun and Fred at the very beginning, like, there's that time jump. So we don't even get to see that.
I don't know. I just. I put the blame at the writer's door because they should have been intelligent enough to know that if you have a character that is actively hurting and doing cruel things to your protagonist in such an extreme way, like we saw in Deep down, then you have to work really hard to make him likable. Yeah.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the biggest issue too, is, like, messed up.
It's hard because when you're watching a TV show and you have, like, a complex, interesting character on your screen, they make you feel a plethora of emotions. Like, you feel. You can feel angry at them, you can feel disgusted, you can feel sad for them, you can feel happy when they do things. But I feel like with Connor, oftentimes the two emotions that we're asked to feel for the character through, like, what they're portraying on screen is like, either sympathy because he's, like, so tragic, or it's. It's like annoyance and anger because he just continues to do terrible things to everybody around him. And I feel like there's nothing in between. Like, we never get moments of being like, oh, my God, Connor's funny. Oh, my God, Connor's being sweet in this scene. Oh, my God, look at this scene where Connor's, like, being badass. It's just always two emotions. And I think that that makes a character less interesting ultimately, because he's very like to note at that point, like, there's not much to him.
And I think in order to have a likable character and an interesting character, they have to be, like, multidimensional. And I think that's Connor's biggest flaw. And I think that's the writing right on top of the fact that, yeah, I agree, a more charismatic actor maybe could have brought some more heart to the role. Some more, like, I don't know, like.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Charisma to the role you connect with as the audience. It. It gives you another layer to connect to, even if it's somewhat superficial, not only from attractive level, but, like, you either have it or you don't. You know what I mean? And so not that Vincent Kartheiser, he's obviously phenomenal actor, but I don't know that he worked well to endear the audience to the character because of how, like, how poorly the writers were writing his storyline. They needed to have someone that, like, helped fill in that gap. And I think, obviously, we want better writing, but if that couldn't have happened, a different actor would have gone a long way.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah, 1,000%.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: So. Yeah, and I'll talk more about that, like, once I get to my, like, rewrite of Cordelia. I think it kind of helps a little bit with that, but. All right, so Queen C has layers, says, do you think the writers did the best of a crap situation made entirely by Joss Whedon in this seasonal arc?
[00:17:58] Speaker B: That's a hard question.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: These are hard questions. Yeah, I know.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: You take it away, Sarah.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Okay, I'll go. That's fine. Yes.
I am a slow processor, so I have to sit down and, like, think about and write down my questions, and then, like, take a couple days and think about it some more and come back to it and write down. And then. Yeah, I just don't do well in thinking on the fly. But if we're talking purely about the writers, then, yeah, probably. Since Joss, we know he came up with virtually every major plot point and storyline, at least historically, he has done so. So I'm assuming he has done so with a lot of the stuff. I know there are certain aspects that, like, was verified. I don't know about everything, but I'm just gonna assume so. He was most likely behind the Cordy and Connor and Amnesia Cordy and all that stuff. Storylines. It's hard for me to say definitely definitively, because I don't know how much freedom and restraint the writers had and how much liberty, because, like, I get the idea that Joss is like, all right, so here are our main plot points. This is roughly what this episode's going to be about. Go write about it. And then the writer has the freedom to kind of insert dialogue moments and stuff like that. But ultimately, Joss gets sent the script again, goes over it, and then it's also pitched to all the other writers who give their input, and then it's taken in. And sometimes the. The episode that you see on screen is very altered from what the original writer had. And so it's multiple people's influence. And so I know Joss had a huge impact on a lot of this stuff, but it's also hard to know how much of this season was contributed to by the writers.
I think the writers were limited by a couple things. First of all, Joss's OG vision. Joss did not want to fully deviate from what he had planned for this. That's the first mistake. I think that was the biggest mistake of this season, honestly. And whether that was because Joss is like, I'm going to punish Charisma Carpenter, or I'm just mad and I really want to do my thing, I don't know. But we. I do know it is so bizarre because I've had multiple quotes that I've seen from Joss when he's talking about other episodes and storylines where he's been given parameters by an actor, an actress and stuff, and he says, I actually really like it when I have parameters because it actually helps guide the story, and it boxes me in a little bit, so I have to be really creative. So it's really bizarre that someone who is so good at thinking outside the box. Like, case in point, once more with feeling. Allison Hannigan and Michelle Trachtenberg were like, we don't want to sing. You therefore got Tara singing to Willow, which worked really well with being under her spell. And then you have Michelle Trachtenberg's dance scene, which broke up the song, song, song format. There are multiple instances of that where turns out so much better. Hush being case in point, like, first, you know, the first thing I think of.
So it's like, well, then what was stopping you for this season? And I really do think it's his arrogance, honestly.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I totally agree with what you said about how, like, the biggest flaw is the fact that they didn't want to deviate from the original plan, which, like, I don't know if you know all the details about the original plan and you want to, like, share that, but wasn't it that, like, Cordelia was going to be evil either way and it was going to end in some type of, like, reverse becoming fight showdown between her and angel where he kills her? So I think Cordelia was always meant to die this season, and she was actually supposed to be possessed when she came back from the higher. Like, she was supposed to be Jasmine. It wasn't going to be Gina Torres. And I think it's like, I understand on one hand that, like, you have this completed storyline, but also, like, we know that a lot of this stuff was done last minute. So it's like, how complete was your original storyline before you had to deviate? Do you know what I mean? Mean, I know it was like, maybe.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Over the summer, he found out, like, a month before they were gonna start shooting and everything. So I think that's of his own fault. Yeah, his own fault. Right. Exactly.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: So they obviously, like, kept. You can see the beginnings of the season was very similar to the original concept. But then it kind of felt like, week by week, they were kind of making things up and just throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it sticks, you know? But it's like, I don't. I don't know. Like, there must have been something else that they could have done. Yeah.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Like, I don't know. To answer the question of do I think they did the best that they could? I think they did, but their best just wasn't good enough in terms of, like, how the characters were treated and specifically Cordelia and Charisma Carpenter. I think that, like, there's a lot that could have been done differently while still maintaining the overall, like, story of what they did. Like, we're gonna have a question later on about what could have been different for Cordelia, and, like, I would have kept a lot of the stuff the same. It's just removing those, like, gross elements would have made a world of difference, and I think would have made this whole, like, rewrite a lot more digestible for people. And I think it's. It's just, like, simple changes that could have been made. And based on the quotes that we've read by writers, like, I feel like they thought they were doing something really amazing, like Trul. And I don't know how much of that is, like, you know, posturing in front of, like, for interviews and stuff to, like, you know, say that their shit doesn't stink and them trying to seem like they know they knew what they were doing or if they truly believed that the story that they were writing was, like, brilliant. Because it is in some ways. But I think there's so much of it that, like, just betrays the audience and the people who really love Cordelia as a character, for example.
And I just think that, like, yes, maybe it was the best they could do, but it just, like, wasn't good enough, ultimately.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And we also just don't have enough information to. To, like, know. Like, a lot of blame goes on Joss, and I think he gets the lion's share of at the end of the day, but it's also, like, there was a lot of. Yes, ultimately, there were a lot of yes Men too, and. Yeah, exactly. I also think, too. I know the show was having huge. And it always was very constrained by budget. And I know that's a big factor going into season five, which we'll obviously talk about going or next season.
I think in telling the story about Connor being on the outskirts, it's easier if he's with Cordelia, who they already have on the show than bringing in someone new for the entire season, which I think is a big reason why Connor's story was hampered and Cordelia's as well. Like, imagine if there's, like, a third party dynamic that gets introduced that Connor's off hanging out with to keep him separated from Angel. It actually solves a lot of your problems.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Could have kept Gru around. That would have solved multiple issues.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Actually, many, many issues.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think. And, yeah, so I think the writers did, I guess, the best that they could, but, like you said, not good enough. But I. If you're asking if Joss did the best that he could with working on Christmas pregnancy, absolutely not. Just have to throw that in there. Like, figure something else out. Joss, you're a highly creative person. Let's go.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: You're an employer, and it is your literal obligation to accommodate your employee. Like, period.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: I don't care if it's like, a creative environment or whatever or how TV works. Like, people have been working in TV and movies and getting pregnant for, like, ever. And, yeah, they just always work it out somehow. But for some reason, this time around, it was. Yeah.
[00:25:33] Speaker A: Yep. And I mean, again, I think it's a product of him being stretched far too thin. I think his ego got in the way and. Yeah.
All right, so our next comment is. Or question, I guess, is from Vero 102083. Is that Veronica?
[00:25:51] Speaker B: That's Veronica, yes.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: All right, so Veronica says. Yeah, shout out to Veronica. What did you guys think about the ending of the show or ending of the season? Should they work with Wolfram and Hart?
[00:26:05] Speaker B: I love the ending.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the ending's amazing.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: It's so good. Oh, I like, for story purposes 1000%, they should work from Wolfram and Hart. It's like the villain of the show, and now they're going to be working for the villain of the show. Like, this is just, like, ripe for amazing storytelling. If I was like, like, in story wise, is it a good idea? Probably not.
But we like drama and we like our characters to, like, be put through the wringer. And I have no doubt in my mind that that's exactly what we're gonna get. So I think it's a great idea. And, yeah, thumbs way up from me.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: I'm to the point where as long as there's. It doesn't. The drama doesn't involve the love triangle, I'm all for it. Seriously.
Several thumbs up from me. Yeah.
Does it probably go against the mission? Does. Does it maybe. Like, should they probably not be working from Wolfram and Hart in the headspace that they're all in. Probably not, but. Ooh, the juiciness of angel erasing their memories and, I mean, the inner conflicts. And I just. I'm eating it up already for.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: All right, so, Chrissy, Chris Irvine iii, I'd love to hear your thoughts on where Cordy's character could have gone if Charisma hadn't been fired. In an ideal storyline, how could we salvage Queen C? She had so much more to give.
All right, so this is the big one. And I'm just gonna caveat this with saying that in order to salvage Cordelia's storyline, from my opinion, you have to go pretty far back, and you have to go back to, like, season two. And if you guys listen to our season three recap that we did last year, we talked a lot about how Cordelia's visions should have been given consequences back in season two instead of just suddenly brought up in season three and then dealt with. Because that would have helped a lot in giving a more human aspect to Cordelia, humanizing her, giving her layers, also making it more of a big reveal when everybody does find out that she's dying and all that stuff. It would have also tied into the rest of everything else.
And, I mean, we haven't been quiet or shy about saying that. We feel like Charisma's or Cordelia has been severely underwritten and underutilized and not really delved into a lot. She's used as a victim in a lot of situations, but she isn't allowed, really, to get very messy. And I think the show that is massively hampered her storytelling. And so, like, I know we've talked about it, for me and for Leia, we feel like Cordelia's arc kind of stopped at Pylia, like, after Pylia. From season three on, it's been a real struggle for the show. You can tell, to find a place to fit her in that works well with giving her her own autonomy and giving her own story arc. Because what's happened with season three and four is her whole storyline has been hinged on either angel or Connor, which I guess is technically still Angel. Just, you know.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah, through extension of Angel.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And unfortunately, we've lost Cordelia in the process. The writers have had to drastically change who Cordelia is and even angel to an extent. And it's gotten to the point where we obviously. I know we have Jasmine. We have all that stuff that has taken over Cordelia But I don't know going into season five, how they could have salvaged that, given the storyline that we were given. I truly don't know what. Where you would go with Cordelia after that, because nothing that happened in season four is technically, like, a direct consequence of Cordelia. Like, she didn't do any of that. It was Jasmine. So how are you going to have this character deal with those ramifications when it wasn't even them to begin with? So you're just kind of left with Cordelia once again, just being this basic character.
Yeah. So, like, I. I struggle to know with where this show has written her, like, knowing how to move forward with that, you know?
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I. I think a big part of the reason that upon this rewatch, I just. I don't find Cordelia, like, interesting overall is because I feel like a lot of the stuff that, like, involved. That's involved in her storyline, she. She lacks agency in a lot of it. She lacks the ability to be messy as, like, a character of her own. I feel like a lot of the stuff that happens to Cordelia happens to because of her, not because of choices that she makes.
And I just think that they. They remove the ability to, like. Like, for example, with Jasmine, you know, this whole season, it's not Cordelia. So it's like, next season, if she were to be there, like, would they have dealt with the fallout of all of that? Because she's not culpable for it. Like, it's not her fault. Right. But that's the. That's the issue a little bit where it's like, nothing is ever Cordelia's fault because everything is just constantly happening to her. Like, she's constantly a victim. Even in season one, she's always a victim. And yes, she does make, like, empowering choices along the way, but it's usually done to service another character, usually Angel.
So I just feel like in order to change Cordelia's story, I think the show would have to give her more agency. I think we'd have to delve into the more flawed parts of her personality. And I think the show delves into this very briefly, but then very quickly disregards it and doesn't really go into it a lot. And I think in season three, like, I just think of the episode Birthday where we were talking about how, you know, Cordelia's greatest flaw is her arrogance, and that's ultimately what results in her downfall. And I think when we come to those conclusions, it's us doing that by, like, headcanoning stuff. Like, I don't think the show is actually trying to say that. I think the show wants you to unironically think that Cordelia is, like, the most morally superior. The most. Like, she knows everything. She's, like, got her. You know what I mean? Like, there's just never a time where Cordelia makes a decision like every other female character in the Buffyverse, where it's like, Cordelia made this decision of her own agency and this happened, and then these are the consequences, because that's how, like, characters have interesting stories, in my opinion, and she just doesn't have that. It's always just, like, you feel badly for Cordelia because things just keep happening to her. And I think this is why this show is, like, just not very kind to its female characters and especially to Cordelia. I think they do a better job with Fred, even though we know how her story ends. I think they do a better job with Lila. I think they do a better job with Darla. They do a better job with every other single female character in the Buffyverse than they do with Cordelia, in my opinion.
And, like, if I.
If I was a person that was a huge fan of Cordelia, which I used to be, but I'm not anymore, I would be very angry about that because it's. It sucks. Like, it sucks that your only female character just lacks agency for the majority of the show. And as a result, she's just kind of. All she does is kind of just get watered down gradually more and more until she's, like a shadow of, like, what once made her, like, a little bit interesting, you know?
So I. I really don't know what they could have changed. I think, number one, just maybe, like, the visions storyline, where she's hiding her visions, and, like, they could have delved more into the fact that, like, Cordelia likes to feel important, and she feels that giving up the visions would give up her importance, and she doesn't want to do that. And we could have explored more of her, like, you know, that flawed part of her personality where her desire to be special outweighs her desire to, like, not help people, but her desire to, like, make sure that she doesn't die, you know, or have the option to be, like, you know, you can give the visions up, which she does, and then she doesn't. But it's all just so rushed. We never, like, sit with it for any significant amount of time.
I don't know. Otherwise, how else. Like, you'd have to start there, and then. I don't know how else. Again, I also can't see how they would have carried her into season five, especially after this season, to be completely honest.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: Yeah. You want your character's actions to have consequences. You want your characters to always be growing and then stumbling and falling back and then overcoming that and growing again. And you see that with. I mean, everyone points to Wesley's character development as being one of the best of the Buffy verse. And let's talk about why that is. Because Wessie is messy. Wesley is messy. But he's still. Even though he's, like, two steps forward, it's one or two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, two steps back, you know, but he's still moving forward, and we're seeing the consequences of his actions. But he's still, like, even though he's not apologizing, he still is like, yep, I kidnapped Connor. And that's messy. And we, like, you know, we criticize him for it, but it gives him something. And he is. He has his gadgets, he has his life that he is living. Like, he started his agency this season, apart from angel and stuff. And so I think with Cordelia, it just would have been so nice to see her get her hands a little bit dirty so that there could be consequences and just so that she can make mistakes.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: Well, going off of, like, personality traits that we know are there, like, right. Dark Willow didn't just appear out of nowhere. It materialized out of Willow's, like, desire for power that we've seen hints of since season one of Buffy. Buffy's, like, whole depression arc in season six. Like, the things that she does in that season, there's a reason for it that's rooted in Buffy's personality.
Anya being a vengeance demon and going back to doing that, Fred wanting to kill the professor. Like, that is. Those are all things that these female characters did because of themselves. Not because something was done to them, not because somebody made them do it because they wanted to. And then they had to deal with that after.
Was it done? Well, in some cases, like, maybe not, but at least they had that option. I feel like Cordelia never does.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: No. And, I mean, I really enjoy Cordelia from the first three seasons of Buffy, even though it's still not done super duper. Well, she still.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: She has more agency in those seasons.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Because you see her making active decisions and choices and having consequences for those things and still having. Even having a life outside of the gang as well. And so I think a lot of people carry that over into this show, and sometimes Will, I don't want to not, don't want to say justify, because that sounds really bad. But just like, I think sometimes we tend to like, oh, well, she did this because of how she was back over in Buffy. And it's like as of this point in season four of angel, that character no longer exists. They don't look at all like. Like Cordelia doesn't look like who she was back in Buffy season three. And so I think it would have been so cool if they leaned into what makes Cordelia. Cordelia. At the end of the day, she started out as a self indulgent, selfish, and kind of arrogant girl who got kind of whatever she wanted. She was wealthy. So what can we do with that? How can we lean into that and how can we have her growing out of it in an organic way?
So, yeah, it's just very frustrating because I just don't. I don't know where she would have gone in season five, but. But this is my head cannon. If they had changed a bajillion things. So like, we talked. We talked about how, like in season three. Let me see. Where am I? Oh, yeah, okay. So continuing my idea from last season where I had the whole idea of like revealing to just the audience that Cordelia is dealing with serious physical side effects from the visions in season two, have it revealed then. And then in season three show her turmoil. She doesn't want to tell the gang because the visions have become a huge part of her identity. You still have the reveal in Birthday, you have Skip show up. But she chooses to keep the visions because she's afraid that she won't be anything without them. I think that was hinted at, but I think they could have done a little bit more of like, showing her wrestling with those things instead of just jumping straight into kind of a Saint Cordelia arc. You can mix in her desire to help people, just show that that is constantly at war with her desire to stay alive, her desire to have this acting career and such. And then she becomes part demon. But my idea was to give her an aspect of the demon that she doesn't like about herself that's maybe physical, and it goes directly against her vanity. And then as the season goes on, she just increasingly becomes upset about, like, the horns or the tail or whatever they gave her. And she starts receiving a lot of prejudice. And then she becomes really fearful of giving up the visions because she's like, oh my gosh, this is all I have left. And then because of all that, she becomes really unhappy, starts becoming more self involved and maybe even resentful of angel and the rest of the gang. And then you have angel continuing to be really involved with Connor. There's tension between Cordelia and Angel because she's literally like, I've sacrificed so much for you, and now you have everything, and I'm suffering. And through all of this, we still see, like, she wants to do good, she wants to help people, but she keeps. Keeps stumbling and getting wrapped up in her own pain and suffering. And then you get to the end of the season. Skip shows up. He's like, hey, I have a way to fix all your problems. We're going to take you to a different dimension. Guess what? You've earned being a higher D or a higher being. And you won't be ostracized. You're still special. In fact, you're more special than everybody else. And now you can help even more people. And she goes, heck, yes, I'm going to do that. So then you get to season four, and there's a couple things you can do because Charisma is obviously still pregnant. So you have angel beseeching the Powers to let him have Cordelia back because he's like, hey, I need Cordelia. She's still part of the team, but she's also my connection to the Powers that Be. And so then he doesn't realize that the Powers that Be that he's talking to is actually Jasmine, who's orchestrating this whole thing. So then she gets Cordelia to come back, and Cordelia is either already pregnant because of something that happened up the Powers that Be, or she got pregnant because it grew last season, or they made the huge thing about the contraceptives. You could be like, it just didn't work or whatever, or she is taken over by or not taken over by Jasmine, but it's kind of like a parasitic thing where Jasmine's inside of Cordelia and Jasmine's influences Cordelia's emotions that are already there, and you just skip a pregnancy arc altogether. So Cordelia comes back, and Cordelia is not happy with angel because she's like, hey, I was a higher being. I was fulfilled. I had purpose. And she's still Cordelia. But we start to see more negative characteristics coming out as Jasmine is subtly manipulating her so she's really divisive within the team. She's still bitter towards angel, and she's like, all right, I'm still sacrificing for you. But she also has Connor's ear because he really trusts her. Due to their bond from season Three.
So then we're not gonna have the sleeping together arc. You could still have them, like, they hang out a lot. And then over time, she gets to the point where Skip shows up, like, halfway through the season, and Skip's like, hey, do you want to go back to being a higher being? She says yes. He gives her, like, the spell to like, or this idea to do the spell, it requires her to go kill a virgin. So her and Connor will go kill the virgin. And. And then it le. And then she falls into a coma. And then let's say she just, like, expels Jasmine versus giving birth to her. And then that way Charisma Carpenter is out again for this, the last third of the season, because, you know, she's pregnant and all that stuff. But what would happen is now you can still tie, like, Jasmine's influence all the way back to the trial and reprise with Connor playing a pivotal role. And it would be a really interesting mirror to the angel slash Angelus, this dilemma with the idea of fighting our inner demons and the evil inside of us. And also, I think, Leia, you talked about how it would be similar to Dark Willow and Willow. So you do all of that. And then in season five, Cordy comes out of the coma and now has to deal with all the ramifications of her pride, her selfishness. And because even though she was influenced by Jasmine, those desires were still hers. And ta da, we've successfully humanized Cordelia. We've allowed her to be messy. And season five can actually be a redemption arc for her where she's demoralized, just like angel and just like Spike, she kind of wants to redeem herself and find forgiveness. And she buys into Wolfram and Hart's like, hey, come work for us, because it's easier than facing herself. And so season five would hopefully see a Cordelia that starts to fight for the mission because it's the right thing to do and not because she wants to elevate herself. And I think that would be super fascinating. I know that's not going to be hugely popular because a lot of people like the Kangel romance, and that cuts that out. And a lot of people want to see more of the positive aspects of Cordelia, not always the negative ones. I. I hyped up the negative ones more just because I don't feel like. I feel like we've lost that. But that's not to say that Cordelia is only those things. Obviously, there's going to be. We're going to see, you know, we'd See more emotions, but it would be more nuanced. And it. What it would do is it would actually give Cordelia a redemption arc, whereas I don't really feel like she has that at this point, so.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Well, the show has never presented her as needing a redemption arc, but then they always sort of hint that she kind of does because she was a bully in high school.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: We had one line back in season one, and then never again.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it. I think it would have been really, like, if they're gonna make Cordelia evil, because that was always gonna be the plan in season four. Like, I think it would have been so much more interesting to see her be, like, evil because of something, like, about her, you know, like, and then have a redemption arc and stuff. I'm not a fan of, like, the Cordelia that is just, like Saint Cordelia. So I think that would have been. That's a great rewrite, Sarah. I wish you could go back in time and just go in the writer's room and be in the writer's room, guys, and rewrite this whole thing and make it happen.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I wish, too. God, do I wish it right. We would have had Apocalypse Now. Ish.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, if. If I were to think about how I would rewrite, like, season four, for example, like, I wouldn't change the overall thing with her getting, like. With her being pregnant and giving birth to Jasmine and all this stuff. I think I would just, like, have Cordelia come back from the higher being place pregnant. And that could be, like, the mystery up until Jasmine gets brought forth.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: And it's like, Cordelia comes back, she's pregnant. They're trying to figure out what's. What's growing inside Cordelia. Like, she starts to gradually act a little weird because Jasmine's influencing her. She doesn't have to sleep with Connor. Maybe her and Connor do get paired up because, you know, she's slowly, like, moving away from the group because of Jasmine's influence on her. But that avoids the icky relationship between her and Connor. That avoids the love triangle between her, Connor, and Angel. I would have ended Kangel at Spin the Bottle when they had that conversation at the beginning of the episode where they're just like, yeah, maybe we had feelings. And then at the end of the episode, just being like, yeah, but our time has passed. And then they would have just let that go and whatever.
So, like, I wouldn't change too, too much. It's just, like, a few things. Right. And then eventually Jasmine is born. Maybe Cordelia doesn't end up in a coma, or maybe she does for, like, a little bit, but then she wakes up and it's like the original plan where she's the one that kills Jasmine, maybe, like, you know, giving her back some, like, agency and, like, kind of some justice for, like, what was done to her. And then I would have loved to see Cordelia. I don't know if I would. I would have liked to see her in season five, but I would have liked to see her be like, after everything I've gone through, I'm making the decision to walk away from this and go and do my own thing. And I think that's my biggest thing with you're welcome.
Is that instead of having her die, I would have liked to see her make the decision to go off and do her own thing and just, like, have agency for once in her fucking life.
So, yeah, in my rewrite, I still wouldn't have Cordelia in season five because I just can't see a way for her to fit into the season, to be completely honest.
And I would have had her go off and maybe pop in every now and then in season five. But, yeah, I would have had her go off and be like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna help the helpless, and you guys can go to Wolfram and Hart, you know, so, yep, yeah, totally agree.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: But, yeah, let us know, you guys, what you think. If you're one of those, it's like, oh, my gosh, I think there was so much more potential. What do you think they would have done with her in season five? And if you're someone who kind of agrees with us, how would you have rewritten season four? Even if you don't, how would you have rewritten season four and made it work? I mean, when I was trying to think about it, I was like, oh, it really is tough. Because the timing of Charisma's pregnancy, there was only so much that they can. They could do. But again, there were other things that they could do. But I'm very curious for other people's headcanons and what they think would have worked better for the character and for the show, let's be honest.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: So, yeah, I feel like with Charisma's pregnancy, like, if we're taking into account that that timeline, I feel like they could have utilized the Higher Being place more. Like, I know, like, at the end of the day, it would have had to result in her having less screen time. Like, I don't think there was a Way around that.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: In order to make it more like. Like, less icky. What they did maybe have her be up there for a little bit longer because you can't actually see, like, her body. So it's just like, her in a floating head and have her, like, kind of intervene across the season. And then eventually she comes back when, like, Charisma's, like, like, pregnant. She has, like, a few episodes where she sets up the story and then she's gone. She can go give birth and then Jasmine's there and then she comes back at the very end of this. Like, end of the season maybe. But it's. Yeah, it's hard to tell with, like, the timeline of, like, the pregnancy also because obviously, like, they have to accommodate Charisma and, like, her medical restrictions and, like, you know, when she's giving birth and stuff like that. And I know just based off of. Of quotes that she had, she did have medical restrictions and obviously couldn't film for, like, hours at 2 in the morning. Right. So that's also something to consider and I think was probably hard for them to manage, but they still could have.
[00:50:02] Speaker A: Done better, so they could have done it. Yeah. Other shows have as well.
All right, so this is from Addie. She says congratulations on finishing season four. I still can't believe you guys are almost done with the show. I know. Can you guys believe we only have one more season left? I has not sunk in at all. Crazy. Crazy. My first question is concerning Angel's intelligence. We've seen how observant angel is of his. Of his surroundings, which I've always attributed to his predatory nature as a vampire. However, my question is more about his photographic memory since he mentioned it in this season. In Buffy The Vampire Slayer 221, we hear the family member of the Romani girl tell angel that he will remember everything he's done. Do you think the photographic memory was only due to the curse, or could this have been a rare gift? Angel possessed as a human?
I like that theory. Yeah.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: When he was a human.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it makes a lot of sense that, like, either he was cursed with it because we do know he's slightly different, or it could be something he had when he was human. Like, I think either one works very well.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: I tend to fall more on the side that it was, like, something that was unique to, like, Liam when he was human and he carried over and it, like, was heightened maybe when he became a vampire because, like, like, all your senses sort of become heightened because the, like, it being a part of the Curse, I feel like that would be just very specific to, like, his victims. Like, you're gonna remember the faces of all your victims and stuff, so. Yeah. But in general, like, I. I like the idea that it was a human attribute and that, like, carried over to his vampire self and it just got, like, heightened, and now he can, like, remember shit for, like, centuries. That's cool.
[00:51:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I lean more towards the theory that it was part of the curse because you can't be eternally tormented if you don't remember everything that you did. So it makes a lot of sense that those two would, like, tie in. You know, like, if you're like, you and you have a whole.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I would remember nothing. If I was ever an evil vampire and constantly got my soul back, I would be like, what happened three seconds ago? I don't remember. I'm like Dory from Finding Nemo. Just short term memory loss.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: You keep finding perfect happiness because you keep just forgetting everything that you did.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly, that's. That's exactly what would happen. I'd be like, oh, what just happened? Oh, what just happened?
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we're like, dang it, gotta call Willow again. Reinsole.
She had another cheez it.
She's like, perfect.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: It's so delicious.
I, like, watch a sunset and lose my soul every day.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:52:43] Speaker B: Like, it's so beautiful.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: You get. You have a really good nail day. Get some great nails.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: It's like. Oh, that's it. That hit different.
[00:52:52] Speaker B: I'm land jealous again.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: Land jealous. That works really well, actually. That's hilarious. All right, so Addie's second question is concerning the season as a whole. Other than Condelia Barf, how would you two have fixed this season? Specifically, what would you have preferred to see more or less of? Any missed opportunities? So we've kind of talked a little about it. Obviously, with Cordelia, we talked a little bit about Connors. I think if they'd made this season centered around angel and Connor's relationship, and I think we've talked about this with Jim. I think if they'd done that and, like, shown how it's not enough that angel and Connor have a close relationship because of how damaged Connor is with Holt's influence and how Angel's world maybe isn't the greatest place for Connor because of his prejudices. Again, because of Holt's influence, I think it would have been really impactful to see angel give it everything he had to be the best dad to Connor and get to the end and realize it's not enough. Because by the time we get to the end of the season, the events of home, like, Connor's obviously messed up because of everything that happened. But I don't buy that. Angel was the best dad that he could have been. And angel really tried as much as he could have.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: You know, he didn't. He was terrible for, like.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: No, okay, thank you. I'm trying to be, like, delicate, but he just was terrible.
[00:54:11] Speaker B: He was awful.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: Yeah. We just needed to see more of angel trying. And I think that, like, that would also feed into, like, his desperation for the perfect family, which I feel like is there and, like, they really talk about at the beginning and the end of the season. But I. I like my hypothesis. Will would be like, let's say the writers chose to have Connor join, like, Guns old gang, which would have been a fantastic storyline because Guns old gang is a lot more black and white when it comes to demons, same as Connor. And so he would just kind of devolve more and more into hate and prejudice. And maybe he would be trying to hide it. Like, he's trying to hide his parentage from them or his powers because he doesn't want them to think that he's part vampire. And he's also afraid. Like, oh, my gosh, what am I? And we can even maybe have Gun maybe start kind of swayed to go back to his old gang because Connor and Gun's chemistry is so good. But also, Gun, this season was kind of feeling a little bit like angel and co are losing the mission and maybe he's kind of getting swayed and he and Connor buddy up or he starts joining Gwen for more side stuff because she needs him. And I feel like just doing things like that would have been way more interesting and a lot better for the characters than what we got.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: We definitely needed more stuff with Gun. We needed more stuff with Fred. I think this was a pretty big season for Wesley.
I don't know if I would change anything that had to do with Wesley, to be honest. I think that was pretty consistent, like, across the board. But, yeah, I would have definitely liked to see more of Fred and Gun because I feel like oftentimes, like, in the episodes, they're just like. Like in the background. Like, not really. Like, Fred had the two episodes, but, you know, the magic bullet and then where. Where's the one which super one? That she's on the run and so. Yeah, yeah.
But I just feel like when they weren't. I don't know, like, they just were kind of there and then Gun was getting like, relegated to just, like, the muscle, but they didn't really, like, pay too much attention to him. So I like that idea of bringing back his gang and, like, at a time when he's kind of questioning the mission because everybody's lost their.
At Angel Investigations, that would have been cool. Yeah.
[00:56:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: And then Lauren. I don't know what we could have done with Lauren. I mean, he was just.
[00:56:35] Speaker A: Stop taking advantage of him.
[00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, Angel. Angel and Lauren maybe could have gotten closer, and he could have been more of, like, a confidant, because Lauren gives great advice, and I feel like angel just, like, ignores him and then listens to, like, other people. That.
[00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Lauren is hard because this season, no matter what you decided to do, you needed to have the gang devolve, and you needed to have the gang get really messy and make really awful choices and become really disenfranchised with the mission because of the decision made with Wolfram and Hart. They wouldn't have chosen to go to Wolfram and Hart if they were not as despairing as they were the season. So Lauren. Lauren is hard because he's a very hopeful person. So, yeah, it would have been hard to have too much of him or else the game.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Give him his club back and then burn it down again.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: Oh, no.
He'll just lock him up in Pilea.
[00:57:29] Speaker B: I'll take the deal yesterday, literally.
[00:57:33] Speaker A: I. Yeah, I don't blame him for taking that deal.
All right, so then Sarah Lee says. Says which season is better, worse for you guys between season three and four? I think we kind of already answered that. I'm going to kind of cheat and say that the back half of season three and the first half of season four is the worst season for me.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so true.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: Because it's all just one long.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: I'm still gonna say season four, for me, is definitely better than season three, because I think the few episodes, like, the second half of the season, as soon as Faith comes, it, like, that's my favorite run of episodes, I think. Think one of my favorite episodes in the entire show. And I think I can't say that about any of the episodes in season three. So I think that really saves the season for me. And I really enjoy Gina Torres. I do enjoy the Jasmine arc. I think it's interesting. It's different. Is it perfect? No, it's not. But it's, like, interesting to watch. It's very. Like, you're in, like, a bizarro world, and I like that.
So season four is gonna have to When? Over season three for me, for sure.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then was there another storyline that was going to happen, another big bad, another direction for Cordelia's character before Joss found out she was pregnant and decided to punish Charisma and Cordelia. Before we jump into that, she did also say, could you please tell Levi that mommy loves him and is proud of him? And then also shout out to Levi for his 10th birthday. I know it's a little early, but our youngest fan. So cute.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: He's so cute. Happy birthday. I mean, happy early birthday.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Have you. I think we're releasing it like a month before his birthday, but yeah. Okay. It counts. Just. Just listen to this all again when you come back to your birthday.
[00:59:13] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Be like all over again.
All right, so Cordelia, we kind of already talked a little bit about it. Just kind of what the original plan was. Cordelia was going to be the big bad, and it was like the season was going to culminate to a massive showdown between Cordelia and Angel. Like Leia was saying, a la becoming Part two.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: And I would have hated, absolutely hated if they had done that. Oh, my God. Like, I almost feel like the. What ended up happening was like, more digestible than like a reverse becoming. Because, like, like, really, really, you're gonna take something sacred like becoming and try to repeat it? No, I refuse. Pitchforks. Tomatoes. Boo.
[01:00:01] Speaker A: I'm genuinely really curious to see how they would have actually pulled that off, given the lighter, I say in quotations, more comedic tone of season three when it came to the Gru, Angel, Cordelia love triangle. And then to go from that to getting to a becoming Part two esque place. Like, I wonder if emotionally, if the show would have pulled it off and getting us there or the actors, to be honest.
[01:00:29] Speaker B: You know, maybe they would have had angel and Cordelia, like actually get together in season four, and then she turns evil, but then she went to the higher being place. So, like, how would that have worked?
[01:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And then how are they going to have Connor? Because they were. I. I get the sense that they were plan. Always planning on having Connor get to that place because of how unpopular the character was. So I wonder how that would have impacted Connor. How it would have impacted, like, them going to Wolfram and Hart, if they were even planning on going to Wolfram and Hart or if that was just the last minute. Like, we have to do something vastly different than what we have been doing.
Yeah, I'm not sure, but I have a couple of quotes here. So Charisma Carpenter says I wish I knew what they originally had in mind with this whole Ascension idea. I don't know if it' or not, but they said they didn't know what to do with the character, how to service her. But I don't think that was it. I think I was having some personal issues, and they were feeling like I was a wild card, and they didn't know how to cope with it or deal with it or to make it work. At that juncture with season four, I felt that the Three Stooges, the main men who ran our shows and made it great, all left. David Greenwald left to do miracles, and I missed him terribly. My character missed him. Tim my near wrote great stuff for Cordelia, but then he left to work on Firefly, and Joss had already been busy with other things for a while, although I know he always had his hands in things, overseeing storylines and deciding what happens when and the others would make it happen. Those decisions were obviously his and very important and key and brilliant. But without those three, how could the show possibly be the same? How could it not suffer? So then Kelly Manners, the producer, says, what's interesting is that in season four, Charisma was going to become the evil character. Joss had broken the story arc. But about a month before we started, Charisma walked in and goes, oh, by the way, I'm pregnant. Joss almost tripped over. That's how Gina Torres came in to be on the show as Jasmine. That threw a big wrench into Joss's plans. I thought he was going to cry because it had to change his whole vision for that season. I know Joss loved having Gina. I thought she brought quite a bit on the show. Like I said, she was a life vest because of Joss's vision got up. I think in a way, she saved that season. Now, that's so interesting to me. And also, like the way that Kelly Manners is describing, it's almost like all Joss is going to cry because his.
[01:02:43] Speaker B: His.
[01:02:43] Speaker A: His decisions got messed up and making Chris McCarpenter out to be kind of the villain of that. I don't know if you guys remember, in our first episode of the season, we were talking about how David Greenwald could not get a hold of Joss the entire summer before David Greenwald, who started this show with Joss Whedon, of all people, trying and trying and trying to get a hold of Joss. And I think at times he did get a hold of him. But then Joss wasn't, like, taking it seriously until finally David Greenwald had to just leave the show because he wasn't getting paid or he was getting a pay drop, actually. And so I believe Charisma, which she says that she could not get a.
[01:03:19] Speaker B: Hold of Joss, so 1,000%. Yeah, it's his own damn fault. Like, she gave him plenty of. Or tried to give him plenty of notice and he just wasn't available. Like, that's your own fault, dude. Also, it's your job to be creative and to exactly come up with stuff to, like, accommodate your actors and your employees. Like, period. Like, no. No questions asked. It's crazy.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And just a reminder, all of these quotes were taken before charisma's allegations in 2019, I believe. So just remember that.
[01:03:59] Speaker B: That one, I think it was 2021.
[01:04:02] Speaker A: Was it 2021? For some reason, I thought it was 2019. I don't know why I think I.
[01:04:05] Speaker B: Thought it was 2021 when. Yeah, okay.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: Yes, you are right. It is 2021. I think it was 19.
Yes. 2019 was when. I think.
[01:04:17] Speaker B: They had their 20th reunion in 2019.
[01:04:21] Speaker A: There was like, a few years before that was when Kai, Jess's ex wife, wrote like an expose or something. I think that's what I'm thinking of. But, yeah, yeah. So David Fury says Charisma felt that everyone got angry at her over her pregnancy. And she's not wrong. I'm not going to say that I had a particular problem with her pregnancy, but the thing with Charisma is she led her life as she wanted to without considering ramifications on her role on the shows. For instance, she wound up getting a bunch of tattoos and one of them was a cross that was on her wrist. And I'm going, you got a tattoo of a cross on your wrist when you're on a vampire show. And crosses have an effect on them. We have to hide that now. It's little things like that. These seem like little things. But all by all means. She has the right to have a child. And I have no idea what the circumstances were, but it wasn't timed well. It wasn't time to help us with production and allow us to write around it.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: I mean, she doesn't need tea time that to accommodate you.
[01:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah, you can kind of read between the lines and you just see the writers just blaming her for living her own life and stuff. And it's like, yeah, yeah, maybe I can understand.
[01:05:26] Speaker B: But, yeah, like, I can understand if you, like, signed a contract to do a TV show. And, like, a lot of the time, the way you look is supposed to be, like, cohesive with the story that they're trying to tell and, like, the TV show that you're on. So, like, I understand why her going and, like, without telling anybody getting a rosary tattoo on her wrist would be an issue, because now she has to go into makeup to have this tattoo covered every day. Like, that adds time to, like, production and stuff. Like, I get stuff like that, but it's, like, to expect a person who's, like, number one married. She's. She was a married person who was like. Like, to expect her to time her pregnancy around. And her job is crazy because, like, that's not taking into account, like, infertility. That's not taking into account, like, everything else that's happening in a woman's life. Like, that's an insane thing to even suggest. No other workplace would ever, like, say that. So, yeah, it's such a. I don't. I just. Yeah. I just don't understand how that's even a valid complaint. She should have timed it better. Sorry.
Like, oh, imagine she, like, was suffering with infertility, got pregnant, and then because it wasn't the right time, she, like, couldn't keep her baby. Like, I don't understand what she.
[01:06:43] Speaker A: Right. Or she gets fired or. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just. That's. We're past that or we should be past that. You know, that's sexism in the workplace, and it's actually illegal. That's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:06:55] Speaker B: 1000.
[01:06:56] Speaker A: So then Charisma says, My pregnancy in season four, that was. Was mess the whole season. I wish I could undo or redo. That was kind of when the wheels went off. They didn't know I was pregnant. For whatever reason over the summer, I wasn't able to reach Joss to tell him. Then finally, my agent told Kelly Manners, and I got a call from Joss. The plan for the character was to go a different way. And then with the pregnancy news, it was such a wrench that it changed everything. He said, I have to change the entire season now. I don't know how much of that was just him being pissed off, disappointed, or if it genuinely was. Oh. Because there are lots of times where you just work with someone being pregnant or around it. You stand behind a desk or whatever. Maybe for my character, it was kind of sexy and was never behind a counter and wearing midriffs and tank tops. Maybe that just didn't work.
So then she continues on and says, I honestly have compassion because I can't imagine being a storyteller and having a vision and working so hard on that idea, and then, you know, the actor is throwing you for a loop, and you have to adjust accordingly. I didn't really show for the first six months, but I was definitely working a lot of hours and having some side effects, so it became a concern. But like I said, I have compassion for them and compassion for myself as well. I was in my 30s and had been with my partner for a really long time, had gotten pregnant. So that is my life and a forever thing. Acting is what I did for a living. So for me, I was really torn not on whether or not to keep the baby, of course, because as we all remember, Joss was like, are you gonna keep it? When he found out. How horrible. Horrible thing to say to someone, she says. But the fact that it was not greeted as good news, that the people I'd spent seven years with were left feeling like they were in a bind. And I'm such a people pleaser and spent so much time trying to do my best because I'm not the smartest on set, and it's very difficult for me to memorize lines, and I had to work twice as hard as everyone else. So with that need to please and the fact that nobody wants to be the bearer of bad news, it was unfortunate that it was seen that way. And for it to have ultimately felt like a choice or sacrifice for anyone, that the truth is, you can't have it all, was disappointing and a really big, big life lesson. And also, it was difficult to be in the moment of being pregnant and to enjoy that process, because for the first six months I worked, and in the last trimester, we had to make concessions for the schedule. Well, it is what it is, and I really think it affected my relationships with those people. In a way, of course, my son is worth it. But there's a sadness there as well that I'll probably always carry about that time. That is so sad.
[01:09:13] Speaker B: So sad.
[01:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Imagine, like, you finally get pregnant, because I think I. I don't know for sure, but I think I remember her, like. Like wanting to be pregnant for a while. You. You get pregnant. This is something that she obviously wanted, and you go to tell these people that you've known for forever, and you're met with, oh, this is an inconvenience, and how dare you? Like, I just. That would really.
[01:09:36] Speaker B: It's just so inappropriate.
[01:09:37] Speaker A: That would impact my acting as well. Honestly, like, we know that she struggled with acting this season. I think at times it showed she was very tired behind the scenes. Yeah.
[01:09:47] Speaker B: Very inappropriate.
[01:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So then David Fury says there was a lot of rejiggering. Rejiggering of thoughts about where the characters should be at this point, and arcs of relationships. It just threw everything out the window. And these things happen all the time, you know, When Seth Green left Buffy, he was a big part of the show. And then suddenly he left and we had to write him off. But that helped us introduce Tara. So some of these things worked out well. But we weren't looking to write off Charisma. She was very much a big part of the show. And having to suddenly present her pregnancy on the show and explain it well, these are things that make it tricky for us, that's all. It wasn't for me to decide. All I'm told is the parameters of what I'm writing. You don't have charisma, or you've got to use charisma minimally or so. And so has hurt his leg. He has to be sitting through the whole episode. Weird stuff. And you go, okay, I'm going to go write that. I don't really involve myself with the personal lives, but, hey, it keeps things interesting. And then Joss says, the evil Cordelia was something we'd been planning for a while, but not the Cordelia being pregnant part of the story. Season four saw a cap. Except for one episode of season five of the Cordelia arc.
[01:10:43] Speaker B: Arc.
[01:10:44] Speaker A: The thing with Cordelia that was beautiful is that I got to tell the Buffy story from the movie, which I could never tell on the series. The idea of the movie was that this girl is a ditz, because nobody has ever asked her to be anything else. When you actually put it to her, when there's more required of her, she steps up, she becomes stronger, she becomes interesting, and she becomes a hero. That's sort of what we got to do with Cordelia. But once that's done and she's having a baby, it's coma time. Can you squeeze more milk from something? Usually, yes, but we really resolved what we wanted to do with the character. And because we knew we had to have her go for a period because of circumstances, it just felt right to wrap it up and move on to new things, which we did with season five. And then in response to that, my last quote is from Charisma. She says they had to write Cordelia out. I don't know if I'll ever believe that, but I accept it. Although there's a part of me that feels like we were dealing with some of the most creative people that have ever been in tv, and they couldn't figure it out. Honestly. Valid. I don't know. I think I'm a complicated person. I think I'm lovable. I think I tried really hard. But I also think there were things that work and pressures and insecurities that the job made me feel would rear its head. By the time I got pregnant, it was seen as the last straw. That's kind of what I suspect was where they were at with that. And it makes me sad. I've had lots of years to reflect on that. And I've seen Joss and Allison and Alexis, and I saw them at Arizona Comic Con recently, and they always have the most beautiful things to say about my talent, how amazing I was, and it's sweet. And it brought tears to my eyes because I didn't know they felt that way. Who knows? Maybe they were just being kind. But I felt. I really felt nice. Nice. And when I saw Joss, it was complicated. Not to say we're not friendly, and I wouldn't hug his neck if I saw him tomorrow. But there's this feeling that I walk around him of, does he think I ruined his TV show? Does he really believe that? And that makes me sad.
So obviously most people know this, but just kind of, like, give, like, a little nod to everything. In February 10, 2021, Charisma came forward with allegations of harassment, Ongoing passive aggressive threats to fire her, and verbal abuse, including calling her fat to colleagues when she was four months pregnant, triggered a chronic physical condition that she still lives with. That's from Evan Ross Katz's book.
And I'm not gonna read Charisma's statement. It's very long, but you guys can find that pretty much anywhere. She basically felt that she was fired due to her pregnancy and that she was possibly punished with the storyline that she got in season four because of it. And then later, she agreed to come back in season five as long as her character wasn't killed off. But of course she was, which we'll talk about once we get. Get to season five. And it's just. It's very, very sad because I think I obviously don't agree with what Joss did, and I think it's horrible that, like, her last season on this show that she was with since the beginning was marred by all of that.
I. I just. I find it also just really hard, too, because I. I kind of agree. Oh, this is gonna sound so horrible. But I kind of agree with Joss a little bit in the sense that, like, I don't really know where they could have gone with Cordelia arc in season five.
And I. I put the blame squarely on the way they've written her up until that point. I think season four was just the nail in the coffin. And I think on top of everything else that was happening, whether or not Joss was trying to punish her, which I think that there definitely is valid room for that, given what has all happened this season. But I do also understand, as a creative writer, getting to that place of being, like, I just am not sure what else to do with this character and just being like, you know what? That we're just gonna be. We're gonna be done. And I do know that, like, Charisma did struggle. Like, we've talked about it many, many times about Charisma, struggling with her lines and, like, social anxiety, but then struggling to memorize it and all that stuff. And. And I would imagine that was probably also a factor for Joss of being like, hey, like, we don't know where to. Where to put this character. But also, you're gonna be gone for a while because you're gonna be on maternity leave.
And all those factors just kind of lined up to where I was like, okay, but either way, it's reprehensible, and it's just not a way to. Not a way to treat your. The people that you ultimately are working for you.
[01:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think that there's a way for Joss to, like. Like, I can understand what Joss. What's Like. Is saying when he says that they took her character as far as it was gonna go. Because I. I agree. Like, I. I think we've been saying that since, like, the end of season two. And we said that in this episode. Like, I think. Think Cordelia's arc was complete in Pylia, and there was, like, not much you could do with her after. Like, it was a repetition of a lot of the same stuff. And then we got to season four, and all that mess happened. But I think that there's a way to do that, to make a. Like, to exit a character from your show, if that's what you were intending with, like, while doing it with dignity and with respect for the character. The. That's been there from the very beginning for the actor that's been there from the beginning and to, like, the fans. Because I think a lot of people struggle with angel, the series, because it's just. There's a dark cloud hanging over this because a lot of people are fans of Cordelia. A lot of people are fans of Charisma. And I can understand why it would be hard to watch the show even from the beginning. Like, I can understand why it would be hard because it's. What happened was disrespectful to everybody. And, like, yeah, you know, like, I just. I don't know. It's. It's a tough situation, but I just want to, like, make it clear. Like, Joss is completely in the wrong, and he. He's the one with the power on set because he's the boss, he's the showrunner, he's the creator, and he did not handle the situation in any way, shape, or form correctly, even if, like, it is the writer's fault that they wrote her into a corner way before season four. But, like, you do your characters and your actors justice. Like, just. Just common decency. You know what I mean? Like, and then, you know, we'll talk about your welcome when we get there. But that's also a whole other thing that's just like, another slap in the face. And. Yeah, yeah, it's just. It just sucks. Like, yeah, the whole thing just sucks, for sure.
[01:16:44] Speaker A: And I think it's really interesting because I think the whole dynamic has led to fans often conflating charisma and Cordelia sometimes because it's really hard to watch the show and not see the things that were happening behind the scenes. It actually kind of pulls you out of the story a little bit. Katz actually has a quote in his book from writer D.W. mcKinney where they say reading about the extent of Fisher's allegations made me feel incredibly guilty about how I, as a Buffy fan, viewed the character of Cordelia Chase. I was initially a fan of Cordy on Buffy, but I understood that she was an archetype that was counter to Buffy and counter to who I was as a black teen. Watching the show. I tentatively enjoyed her growth on Angel. And just when I was starting to really like her, the Connor Cordelia storyline happened, and I despised her character. In Buffy's Speak, I was Wigan. I stopped watching the show. I came back to it because my feelings were starting to affect how I saw Charisma. Carpenter and who she is as an actress is so far beyond Cordelia. When I watched the reruns, I asked myself why Cordelia was going through these odd changes and why that storyline allowed to happen. It wasn't until years later that I learned that Whedon may have been abusing Carpenter behind the scenes, and that storyline was basically punishment for her pregnancy. I was undone by that in a way. And this is the part that I think is really interesting. In a way, I felt complicit because Carpenter's allegations skewed my viewpoint. And I'm sure that happened with other viewers too. And I know how difficult it is to get co workers to value you and respect you while you're doing your job while pregnant.
I know we don't have to get super into it because I feel like that's a whole other conversation on itself, itself or on its own that we can talk about another point. But I think sometimes there's been this resurgence of people really loving Cordelia as they should because of Charisma coming out with these allegations. And I think so often it's led to a unfortunately, sometimes toxic discourse where people can't criticize the storylines with Cordelia in it because Cordelia and Charisma's pain is so evident in season four. And so unfortunately, Joss Whedon's selfishness and arrogance has led to just a really tricky situation and led to just a lot of confusion. And it, it makes it sometimes very difficult as a fan and as someone who's, who's analyzing this in a public space and has a podcast to kind of try to, how to figure out how to gently navigate this without making it seem like we're victim blaming, you know what I mean? Because that's, you know what I feel like a lot of people tend to lean towards because they feel bad for Charisma.
[01:19:17] Speaker B: There is this video on YouTube that a friend of mine, Rachel, made and it's entitled the Complicated Legacy of Cordelia Chase. I think it's a really interesting video to watch. It kind of goes through the complicated legacy of Cordelia Chase and she goes into like detail about Cordelia's entire arc. She goes into detail about like the behind the scenes stuff that's occurred, you know, the allegations that Charisma came forward with. It's a really like holistic and like whole view of the entire character. And I would like highly recommend it to anybody who likes Cordelia and wants to kind of, I don't know, just. I guess it was nice to have all those thoughts verbalized and like, it's like a 15 minute video, I think, maybe slightly longer. But it was really nice to watch it and just kind of see the progression and like, as a whole, why this character is complicated for a lot of people in good and bad ways. So, yeah, I would highly recommend it. I'll post it on our stories when this episode comes out and I'll post it with like the link and people can go and watch it. So I just thought I'd recommend that.
[01:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
All right. So our last, last two questions are from Jim. And he says since late season three, the show keeps referencing the phrase deep down for most of its characters. From Cordelia, Wes and Lila, Angelus in Faith to Darla and Connor. What do you think is the thematic significance of the phrase deep down beyond Jasmine being deep down inside of Cordy? I would say it's about free will versus determinism. Whether our characters can choose to rise above their fundamental flaws. Deep down flaws which led to the fracture of the team in Jasmine Husband's plan. But I don't think it's earned. What do you think is the meaning we can glean from this phrase?
To be honest, I don't think the show is super clear about it either. They actually like, kind of drop it and then like, you forget about it completely. And then they bring it up at the very end of the the season. You're like, oh, yeah, that thing. I remember that they lost the plot multiple times this season. I can see what Jim is saying, like the team not being realistic about who they are and what their purpose is. Like, that leads them to Jasmine. And I know we talked about the free will aspect early on in the season and the idea of like living in a fairy tale versus reality. I think we see hints of it here and there, but I think that this idea of the members of angel and company, often, they're like, often willing to embrace the fairy tale and the fantasy because they either don't like who they are, like deep down, or they are afraid that they're lacking or they're putting on an act in order to. To protect themselves. So there's a ton of memory loss this season and characters, alter egos coming out and lots of talk about shattering fantasy.
And you see this with Cordelia, true or not. Skip talks about the shattered fantasy of Cordelia being noble enough to be a higher being. How it was all possible to orchestrate because of Cordy's ego. So you could see evil Cordelia slash Jasmine as a more evil alter ego of Cordelia. We have Gun pulling away from his roots. The whole, like, concept of him putting on the suit. It could possibly be. It could possibly be Gun trying to live out a fantasy as well. And we see this into season five, how Gun is willing to bargain with Wolfram and Hart so that he can have the. The bigger brain and become that lawyer and everything.
I think that Lauren just wanting peace and to entertain and to help, I think all of the gang is willing to embrace the fantasy and maybe kind of embrace the lie in a lot of ways, because deep down, they're all insecure, and they all are.
Yeah, I think they're all insecure. I think they're all afraid that they're lacking. And I think that we see this a ton when, especially in Wesley's arc in his final moments, moments in season five where Illyria says, do you want me to lie to you now? And he says, oh, yes, please. And I just. I think. I think it's very interesting how going into Wolfram and Heart, there's this idea of, like, we're gonna hope that the mission is not gonna actually be that hard. And, yeah, I think it's gonna be very interesting. So, yeah, I like that.
[01:23:38] Speaker B: I agree. I don't know if I, like, have anything to add to that, really, in terms of, like, the meaning of deep down, like. To me, it's representative of, like, you know, Jasmine being deep down in Cordelia, like, Angel's fantasy. But I totally agree that that kind of goes across the board for all the characters. And I think it gets wrapped up pretty nicely at the end of the season when they go to Wolfram and Hart. And it'll be fun to, like, see how that gets explored, how the characters almost get, like, maybe a little bit deconstructed next season, and we get to see how they handle the new.
[01:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:24:15] Speaker B: Like.
[01:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:24:16] Speaker B: Environment they're in. So we'll see what happens.
[01:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. I think it works very well with what you've been saying since season three about how, like, angel and, I guess, Connor as well, both want a family and how by the end, they both realize that they're desperate attempts at one have all been a lie. And. And obviously, like, the finale wraps up the two seasons worth of angel fighting for something that is not for him at the expense of the mission. That's kind of what the point of solace was when Angela's, like, pops back up and is, like, laughing at Angel's fantasy. Like, that's really kind of the deeper meaning of the season, at least in my opinion. But.
All right, so Jim's last question, the last question we have is, is Jasmine and what she means to the show so worth it? I personally see season four as the climax of angel the series and season five, the tragic third act. It's clear, even through rewrites, that the season wants to deconstruct the powers that be and what it means for Angel's mission. It's why season four is my favorite. I respect ambition, but was the ambition always doomed to fail and the season better off with a simpler, grounded story with angel slash Angelus slash Connor at its center?
[01:25:25] Speaker B: I love. I like Jasmine.
I think Jasmine is the perfect ultimate villain for this show. I like that they deconstruct the powers that be because I think there's been hints of the sinister nature of the powers that be from the very beginning. And I like that they took that across seasons and it ended with Jasmine and. And you see these heroes, like, rely on this greater than life power blindly for seasons. And I like that at the end of the day, it's like a part of this grand scheme, like, great evil plan, you know? So I really think Jasmine was effective as a villain. I really like that they chose to go in that direction.
I wish it had been a little bit like. Like more like a little bit longer almost. I wish we had been able to sit with the, like, the knowledge of what Jasmine was for a little bit longer even. That's the only thing that I would change. I think more Jasmine, like, knowing what her intentions are.
[01:26:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:35] Speaker B: But, yeah, I think I. I like. I like it. I think it's great.
[01:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I respect the ambition of the season. I respect that they somehow were able to tie it all together. I think I go back and forth because I feel like you really have to dig hard to get to what the show is trying to tell you with this season. Like, there's a lot of, like, bring your own subtext to fill in the blanks for a lot of things which I don't like. I like shows that make me think. But, like, most of the season was really unnecessary to get us to this place. I agree. I think. I think she should have. Her arc should have been longer.
I think we need. Needed something to ground us a little bit more in the final act. And there wasn't really much of anything like angel and Connor's relationship. While very moving at the very end, there wasn't a lot of build up that was believable between the two characters leading up to that. And so I think it could have hit harder. I think Lila, we were really attached to her. She was dead, so there was like, no Lila and Wet. Cordelia's character was so torn apart and she was gone. Fred Gunn and Lauren were barely featured in this season. So like we've talked about all season, by the time you get to the very end, you're not really attached to very many of these characters. And so I think this show needed to spend more time making us care about the characters and the relationships in order for the ambition of the season to pay off completely. I'm not going to say it didn't pay off, at least somewhat, but for me, I think that it was lacking in that groundedness or not the groundedness, that connection that we have had with the characters in the past seasons, so. So I guess Jasmine was worth it, but at what cost?
[01:28:16] Speaker B: I think it would have been nice if, like, you know, Inside Out. Is that the episode where they find out, like, what Jasmine's whole plan was? Yeah, I feel like it would have been nice if between Inside out and when Jasmine possesses everyone or whatever, if there was a little bit of time where we got to have the characters kind of come to terms with the reality of what has just been revealed and kind of makes them, I guess, like, just consider, Like, I feel like they just bypass that so quickly. Like, oh, we make our own choices, but the big choices, like, they make for us, like, they kind of talked about that, but they kind of bypassed it. And I think that could have been, like, so interesting to kind of look more into, because I feel like then Jasmine comes, they're all happy, and then after Jasmine leaves, they're just, like, mourning that. So there's never a time where we get to look at, like, for. To see them be like, wow, we've been working for these powers that be for all these years, doing these things blindly, and now it's kind of all a lie, you know?
[01:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that is so true. It's just so funny because Lila, Poppy pops up in the episode before angel has even defeated Jasmine. And it's so interesting because you can see the writers being like, okay, quick, like, let's bring in the next act so we can put this whole season behind us and start thinking about the future one, like, let's get this done with. And I think that hampered some stuff with Jasmine because, like, that last confrontation between angel and Jasmine was really, really interesting, and I would have liked to see more of that, for sure.
So. Yeah.
All right. Well, that's about all I have. I know. That was, like, you know, barely anything, but that's it, guys.
I always write these notes because I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, you know, I don't have my normal episode outline, so I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna have enough to fill the time. And then we always, like, have so much to talk about. Yeah, we do.
[01:30:17] Speaker B: So what are you most excited for about season five? Sarah.
[01:30:23] Speaker A: Oh, I'm excited for Spike, actually taking accountability for his actions. And I'm going to be discussing season five of angel at the exact same time that I'm going to be dissecting season seven of Buffy over. I'm becoming Buffy. So it's going to be really interesting to kind of talk about what Buffy did not do well with Spike's redemption arc.
[01:30:48] Speaker B: Mark.
[01:30:49] Speaker A: Or did. Right. Versus over on Angel. Because as of now, I think that season seven of Buffy is kind of almost a regression in some ways of Spike, or at least he's kind of stagnant, versus season five of Angel. He really gets to shine a little bit more. We actually see, like, repercussions from his past. I like how he and angel influence each other. I'm looking forward to the fallout of Angel's decision to erase everyone's memories. The return of the mission. Yeah, a lot.
[01:31:20] Speaker B: Honestly. Same. I'm excited.
[01:31:23] Speaker A: I never thought I'd be so excited to see Spike.
[01:31:25] Speaker B: I know. Me too. Same. I just love, like, I. I love the dynamic between angel and Spike so much. I just find that whenever Angel's playing off of, like, one of the vampires from the. From the four of them, it just brings out both, like, the worst and best sides of him, and I just find it so interesting. And, like, I know that season five is, like, divisive, and some people love it, some people don't, but I just. I love that we kind of come back to that place where Angel's, like, being challenged in that way again, because I think Spike challenges Angel and angel challenges Spike, and. And I love the bickering. I'm sorry. Like, I fucking love it. It's so funny. It's hilarious.
[01:32:13] Speaker A: Petty angel is back, and it's petty.
[01:32:16] Speaker B: Angels, but it's, like, the best Petty Angel. And, yeah, I'm excited to see Connor in season five. I think he's, like, such a highlight of that season. I'm excited for Illyria. I mean, we'll talk about that when we get there. Because that's also, like, a touchy subject, I feel like.
[01:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot. It's so funny because we have. Have so much of this show left. Even though there's this one season left, there's a lot that happens in that season, so I'm very excited about it.
[01:32:44] Speaker B: I'm even excited for, like, these stinker episodes that, like, people think are stinkers. Like, I'm a fan of, like, the.
The Tale of Numero Cinco or whatever. Yeah, the Tri.
[01:32:54] Speaker A: What is it called? Numero nomur.
[01:32:57] Speaker B: That one episode with the.
The male guy. I really like that episode. I'm excited to revisit the submarine episode because, like, historically it's just kind of been.
[01:33:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't really remember it.
[01:33:09] Speaker B: Watch it again.
[01:33:09] Speaker A: It'll be interesting. Yeah, honestly, I will take any of those episodes slouching towards Bethlehem and Apocalypse Now. It's nowish. Yeah. I'm just gonna tell you guys now. Damage might be my favorite episode of the series. So I'm so very excited to talk about it.
[01:33:24] Speaker B: Very excited for that one.
[01:33:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:33:26] Speaker B: I mean, we also have to talk about like Nina and Eve and all that stuff.
[01:33:29] Speaker A: So they're just annoyances. So they will keep my burning passion alive. I get to talk about Nina and Eve and Kennedy all at the same time. So, yeah, I'm going to be spicy.
[01:33:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Watch out. They hate to see Sarah coming.
[01:33:45] Speaker A: It's my last season, guys. After this, I am done. I'm hanging up my microphone and so bring on the haters. You can't touch me. I'll be gone after this.
[01:33:54] Speaker B: Oh, she'll just go off in into the night.
[01:33:57] Speaker A: Just disappear completely. Anyway. All right, well, listeners, let us know your thoughts from this season. I mean, the nice thing about having it be a not so great season is there's so much to talk about about what, you know, we hated or what we could change and stuff. But yeah, let us know all of your thoughts. Let us know your thoughts about season five. And just so you guys know calendar wise on what's coming up next, so this episode is going to be airing on December 19th and then we are going to be off for the holidays, but we're also going to be off, off for all of January. So our first episode of season five is going to be dropping on February 6th. That's Thursday, February 6th. So it's going to be a little bit longer of a break, but we're just going to give ourselves a little bit of time to rest up and kind of record and all that stuff because we really want to go into season five refreshed and ready to just talk about the last season, our last season of recording too. So, yeah, yeah, it's going to be a little bit longer, but I promise it'll be worth it. We'll miss you guys, but it'll be good.
[01:34:59] Speaker B: Hope you have a great holiday season. Have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
[01:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:35:05] Speaker B: And we will see you guys in 2025.
[01:35:07] Speaker A: Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast. Feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast and you can email [email protected].
