S4. Ep22. Home

S4. Ep22. Home
Investigating Angel
S4. Ep22. Home

Dec 12 2024 | 01:28:51

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Episode • December 12, 2024 • 01:28:51

Hosted By

Sarah Watson Lea Nasrallah

Show Notes

Angel and the others are presented with an opportunity to take over Wolfram & Hart and learn the firm's secrets, and Angel seizes upon a chance to change his son's future. Join Sarah and Lea as they discuss the gang's motivations for joining Wolfram and Hart, whether it's ultimately a good idea or not, and the executive decision that Angel makes. 

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season four, episode 22, Home, written and directed by Tim Minier and aired May 7, 2003. I know. I'm like, oh, Tim, you're back. Yes, you can. You can definitely tell I was very much appreciated having him back. Yeah, this, this was a pretty good finale as far as finales go. Like there I saw a review and I kind of agree with this, where they were talking about how the angel finales tend to not be as explosive as the Buffy finales, just simply because the nature of the show. But I feel like this is one of my, like, so far, one of my favorite finales that the show has done. It's really. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Totally agree. It's so good. It's like the greatest. Like set up for season five. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna talk a little bit about some stuff with the transition, but we're gonna save most of the transition to new episode, like all the behind the scenes stuff probably for our season five premiere. And then we'll talk a little bit more about like the spoilers and stuff behind the scenes in our next episode in the season four recap, which send us in your thoughts, guys. We're also going to talk a lot about like kind of the behind the stuff with Cordelia and the stuff that went on this season since. I know a lot people have really been wanting us to talk about that and still have kind of questions and everything. But this one, we're again just going to focus mostly on closing out this season and obviously this episode as we move into season five. But. Yeah, isn't this crazy? We're at the end of season four. [00:02:14] Speaker B: It's crazy. I can't believe. I feel like this season has flown by. [00:02:19] Speaker A: I mean, we did double up episodes. [00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we doubled up like a lot of episodes. But it. I feel like it was. It wouldn't have been better to not do that. Like, it's. It's better that we did it this way. I think the story flowed better. Like, I would have hated to have stopped after certain episodes and waited a week to cover the next one because I feel like a lot of them just like bled into each other. And I think the way we paired them up really worked out. [00:02:45] Speaker A: I wish we had done it in season three because there's several episodes that we definitely could have paired up and it would. It just makes it easier to talk about because some of these are. Because it's such a long running form of media and so you kind of have to talk about things. Well, I guess you can talk about it as they come, but it's so much easier to talk about it in chunk because then you get to go, okay, this is the full story versus being hampered by, you know, have to wait till next week. Yeah. But yeah, season five, we're planning on going back to just doing episode by episode. I think there's maybe one or two episodes that will combine just because we. It. It becomes a little bit more or less serialized, a little bit more episodic in a lot of ways, which I'm really excited to get back to that. But yeah. All right, so Tim Munir, obviously returning to the show for this episode after having not written since Benediction. Isn't that crazy? Benediction was the last time that he wrote. He was busy with Firefly, but obviously we all know that Firefly didn't pan out after one season. So he kind of came back. He wrote and directed this episode, which I knew he had written it. I didn't know he directed it, which again, good choice. He says it acted like a pilot in order to demonstrate to both the network and the television audience that the show could move in a new and interesting direction. Mynier says it's setting up the new configuration for the show. Writer David Fury explains, you can't sell the network on a show they've already been producing, so you have to kind of sell them on a new paradigm, something to enliven it. It may not be broke, but they feel like a little change won't hurt. And there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we'll talk about again once we get to season five, where they really had to convince the network to let them continue to the next season. And so they kind of had to put together a little like promo or I guess preview, whatever you want to call it, trailer of everything they've done on the show so far and pitch it to the network basically so they could get funding and get renewed for the next season, which is just crazy. David Greenwalt says, we've put the characters in a new situation, both financially and physically. It's all about us saying, okay, you've been on the Greenpeace ship saying, hey, Shell Oil is bad. What happens if you actually have to go work for Shel Oil? What happens if you had to be on the inside and this episode's tone kind of mirrors that of Primeval. Joss Whedon comments that he didn't want to do the traditional big action explosion fighting finale that had been done in previous Buffy finales. For this episode, there is no significant fight sequence, barring angel and Connor towards the end of the episode. Both episodes also precede significant story changes. Buffy with her new sister dawn and angel now in charge of the LA branch of Wolfram and Hart. And, you know, you also do have some bit of, like, memory adjustment of some sort with both Angel's choice and then what happens with dawn and stuff. But this is also the last episode with Charisma Carpenter and Vincent Kartheiser as series regulars. Again, we'll talk more about that in the spoiler episode. And this is the last episode ever with Stephanie Romanov. This episode also contains the last scene set at the Hyperion Hotel, and it's the last we see of Angel's convertible. So a lot of changes. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Guys, I have a really cool video, actually, from the DVD commentary. It's like. It's called the Final look at the Hyperion. And they take you through every room, and it's really cool they take you through the set. So I'm gonna post that we can say goodbye to the Hyperion. [00:06:10] Speaker A: That's such a bummer, because. Oh, man, such a good. I mean, I'm glad they got three seasons worth out of it, but, man, what a good set. I'm so sad. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it is a great set, but it's not my favorite angel set. Although it is the longest running one. Like, it's the longest set that they're on. But I personally prefer his season one apartment. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I know you do. It's very cozy and intimate. All right, so that's all. I got a little bit shorter today, but I also. There's just. There's a lot to talk about in this episode. So I kind of saved a little bit more of the meat for the individual conversations, but. All right, as the last 20 episodes in a row, this one picks up right where we left off, where Angel's like, life. [00:06:53] Speaker B: How long has it been? Has it been like, a week? Only, like, this whole season. [00:06:57] Speaker A: I don't even spend several weeks in a row of just like. And the next day and immediately after, it's just like. [00:07:04] Speaker B: I feel like it's been like, a month from start to finish. Like, surely it's only been like a month or two, maybe. I don't know. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah, actually, it might be. We don't have any, like, Christmas episodes to have as a marker or anything. We're like, where are we at now? Yeah. All right. So Lila says, what's the matter, Ace? Didn't you think you were the only one that ever got to come back from hell around here? Or didn't think you were the only one. Speaking of which, could I possibly get some ice water? Angel's like, what are you doing here? Wesley is, like, disbelieving this whole thing. He's like, it's not here. It's not her. She's not actually here. It can't be. And then Lila says, there's a signed dollar in your wallet that says different. And then he's like, that's a lie. And then just, like, walks away, and we're like, ooh. There's a lot of, like, themes this episode of, like, lies and not wanting to believe things and wanting a different reality. Which I guess makes sense with what's. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Gonna happen at the end. [00:08:00] Speaker A: I am like, h. Wonder why this is. [00:08:02] Speaker B: You guys, check this out. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So angel confirms that it's actually Lila and says that she's still dead. And Lila says that she's not a vampire, saying that Angelus drank from her when she was dead and that my Wesley made sure I'd be spared pulling down her scarf to reveal the scarf, the scar on her neck. And then she says, it's okay, lover. I never felt a thing. The face acting between these two, this entire episode just speaks volumes. It's really, really fun to watch. And Wesley says, I'm sure that's true. And then he says, or, well. And then Lila goes, I'm just a messenger. That's all. They'll be sending me straight back to hell once I'm finished here. And then we find out that the contract that she signed, Wolfram and Heart, extends beyond death, which we kind of knew. Very similar to Holland Manners in season two. And then angel says, what's your game, Lila? She says, no game. In fact, game over. Guess what? You win. Which is why I'm here. I've been authorized to make you kids an offer. And Fred says, you can't possibly think there's anything we'd want from you. And Lila says, I don't think you'll want it, but you'll take it, because this is the offer of a lifetime. And then she's like, just not, you know, mine. And then we cut for credits. I've missed her so freaking much. [00:09:13] Speaker B: She's the best. [00:09:14] Speaker A: So freaking much. [00:09:15] Speaker B: I'm so, so angry that she's not in season five. That's actually the one thing that I don't like about season five is that Lila isn't there because it's the perfect season to have had her on. It still makes me so angry all these years later. She deserved to be in season five. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah, she really did. They also could have done so much with her, and there would have. It would have been an added element to all the other stuff that happens there. But again, we'll talk about that later. [00:09:46] Speaker B: She should have been there in the end, is all I'm saying. [00:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I agree. Oh, that was so good. Oh, man. Now I'm bummed. Okay, we'll talk about season five when we get there. All right. So we come back from credits. All the characters are kind of reeling from what Lila just told them. We don't know yet what it is. We kind of sit there uncomfortably for a few minutes while Lila's just, you know, super comfy. [00:10:07] Speaker B: The scene is great, and we learn. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it's team. Tim Miner says that he decided to open the episode with the assumption that Lila's offer of taking over Wolfram and Hart happened off screen. During the commercial break. He says, I watched the clock for 40 or 50 seconds and have each actor just shift uncomfortably for about a minute. It got pretty hilarious after a while, but I got all the pieces and Stephanie just kicked it out. So once my name is clear of off the screen. Tim laughs. Someone will speak. What? That's. What a really good touch, though. It really makes you feel the tension. And as an audience member, you don't know what's going on. So you're like, just spill the beans already. Come on. [00:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's so great. There's just no music. It's so awkward. I'm just like, what is going on? Are you guys okay? [00:10:51] Speaker A: She's, like, picking. Or Lila's picking, like, invisible lint off her sleeve and just kind of like a cartoon. It's fine. I got all. I got a whole lifetime ahead of me. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Multiple legends. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:03] Speaker A: Then Lauren's like, okay, just the LA branch. Hi. From another dimension. What the hell does that mean? Lila says, means we give, you win. We're moving out. The senior partners are ceding this territory to you. And to prove it, they want to give you controlling interest in our LA office. You get the building assets, personnel, letterhead, paper clips, all of it. It's yours to do with as you see fit. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Damn. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. What in the world? [00:11:29] Speaker B: What a deal. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And which is so interesting, having Lila be the person that Is presenting this because I feel like this is something she would have wanted. Like, she was definitely gunning for this type of job security also to be the person in charge. Yeah. It's just interesting. So then Fred's like, there is no LA office. The beast destroyed it. She says, oh, it's back restaffed and zombie free. We're bigger, better and shinier than ever. We want to give it to you. She acts like, you know, deal of a lifetime, guys, which, I mean, it is. Guns. Like you want to give us your evil law firm. We ain't lawyers. Valid. [00:12:06] Speaker B: I mean, honestly. So valid. [00:12:09] Speaker A: And Fred's like, or evil currently. Yeah. She's like, at any given day, that might not be true. Lila's like, well, what we're offering you is a turnkey, state of the art multitasking operation. What you do with it, well, that's up to you. Angel's like, why? Lila's like, well, I thought that was obvious. You earned it. Think of it as a reward. They're like, reward for what? She says, ending world peace. [00:12:33] Speaker B: I love this so much. [00:12:35] Speaker A: So good. [00:12:37] Speaker B: It's so clever. [00:12:39] Speaker A: It's so clever because it draws your eye to the entire conflict of Jasmine and what angel, like, was wrestling with and the whole gang was wrestling with. It is a really great consequence for something that you feel like you're like, oh, this. This should be cut and dry. But it's not. Because they all. They effectively brought the world back into chaos after removing Jasmine's thrall on everybody and obviously gave everybody choice. But in a lot of ways, this aligns with what Wolfram and Hart have been trying to do. And that. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:15] Speaker A: Ooh, that's uncompy. [00:13:18] Speaker B: It's. It's a really nice, like, side by side with, like, what angel does later, too. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yes. And we will talk about that for sure. That's why I think this is one of the best season finales. Because the way that not only does it revamp the show, but the way that. That it really. There's several ways that you could take this, and it really causes you to question things and. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:40] Speaker B: But at the same time, it, like, beautifully ties up things that we've been waiting for for, like, a few seasons now. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Somehow they were able to connect it all. I don't know how they did it, but they did it. So Fred's like, that's not what happened. Lila's like, no. Wesley's like, jasmine was creating a slave state and Lilas is right where the slaves are full of giggly. Joy and love. Ugh, what a nightmare. Angel says she was eating people. And she goes, they knew what they were getting into. And Lauren's like, her stomach. Poor Lauren. He's so outraged. Lila's like, world peace comes at a price. Jasmine understood that. She consumed, what, couple dozen souls a day? Now we that against ending the suffering of millions. But you fixed that. Oh, so good. Then Fred's like, no, we didn't. I mean, we did. We fixed it, but not in the way that you're trying to make it sound. Lila's like, geez, it's not like it was a criticism. Anyway, I'm dead and running late. Think about a proposal. If anyone's interested and wants the grand tour, there'll be a limo waiting outside just before dawn. And hey, good job. And then she just leaves. And everyone is left feeling horrible about themselves. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I still think they made the right decision. Come on. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Guess we'll see. Guess we'll see. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we don't know. Guess we'll see what happens. [00:14:57] Speaker A: We only know from what, you know, the end of this episode tells us so. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Oh, no, I mean about Jasmine. Like, I think stopping Jasmine was the correct choice to make. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Like, ultimately, you are right. I agree 100 with that. I'm like, well, we don't know. I don't know. I think Jasmine should have continued eating people Anyway. Okay, so now we're back to the streets and Connor's walking around and we have, like, sirens blaring. It's chaos. Unlike how things were before Jasmine's spell was broken. Connor stops and looks up and sees a man pacing on the roof on a tall building beside him. He approaches the man, who looks like a cop, clutching his gun like it's a stuffed animal and saying, it's lost. This actor is actually from the holdup episode in season two, the Charity Auction, with an. He played one of the guys that was holding up everyone, which was kind of funny. So then Connor approaches the man and he's like, are you okay? The man's like, I lost something. I need it. Can. I can't find it. Can you help me? Connor's all, like, sad. He's like, I don't think I can. I think it's gone. The man looks at his gun and then he starts to point it at himself. And then Connor's like, hey, no, you don't want to do that. What you're feeling right now won't last. Let's just put that away, okay? Then he's like, you're gonna go home. You're not gonna do anything stupid. And then he's like, you do have a home, right? And the cop's like, yeah, I've got one. He pulls out his wallet, and then he shows him, like, his family members, and he says, that's my home right there. And then Connor gets really irritated and said, that's your family. You were just gonna leave them like that? How were they gonna feel if you didn back? And then the man's like, I don't know. Connor just gets angrier and angrier, starts to walk away, but then just turns around, starts punching. The man says, you were gonna leave him over and over. And he keeps punching him, says, think about this. It's almost like this is like the last straw for Connor where it's like, you've been given everything you could possibly want. Like, everything I want, and you're just gonna throw it all away. And I think it's just like his last bit of despair. [00:16:50] Speaker B: He's projecting big time. [00:16:53] Speaker A: He is, yes. But also, like, this poor guy has no. He has nothing to anchor him, you know? [00:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Nothing. [00:17:01] Speaker A: So then back at the hotel office, Wesley is sitting behind the desk looking at a map. A gun comes in, and Wes is looking for Cordelia. And guns like, hey, it might help if we had employees and, you know, state of the art operation. Wes is reluctant. Gun kind of pushes a little bit more and is like, come on, Wes. How long are you going to be satisfied sitting there sticking pins and maps and blowing dust off your books? And then Wes looks kind of just a little defeated. And guns like, man, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said it like that. Do I detect maybe, like, friendship again between these two guys? Yeah, that we're not fighting over a girl. I was like, oh, the boys are back. [00:17:38] Speaker B: The boys, they're so cute. I love. [00:17:41] Speaker A: They are. I love their friendship. And I was like, oh, like, the way that he was, like, apologizing and relating with him. And then like, guns like, hey, you know, like, gun recognizes that Wesley kind of like reacting in that way is more than just what's happening right here and now in the decision they have to make. He. He. And he pinpoints it. He's like, it couldn't have been easy for you seeing Lila again like that. And I was like, hey, you know what? This is great. Let's have more of this. So then Wesley's like, yeah, that was awkward. You decapitate a loved one, you don't expect them to come visiting. And then he just, like, starts to go over his Map again and again, like, wait, loved one. And Wesley's like, figure a speech. And we're like, lying, man. Stop lying. Yeah. So then angel looks up at Lauren walking in through the front door. Angel's changing his shirt, and Fred's also in the room. Wesley and Gun walk into the lobby from the office, and Lauren doesn't have anything on Connor or Cordelia, but he's like, I'm not saying we ended world peace or anything, but it's a mess out there. Wes tells angel that if Connor doesn't want to be found, he won't. And Gun starts to mention Wolfram and hard again. But angel seems super agitated. And so Gun kind of just cuts off. And angel angrily tells him that he wants. If he wants to get into the limo when it gets there, then it's up to him, and that it's not a decision he can make for any one of them, but that before the ride's over, before they even cross the doors, they'll be corrupted. And then he leaves to go find Connor, which is a crazy thing to say. [00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Because he ends up making the decision for everyone by the end of the episode. [00:19:11] Speaker B: The executive decision. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that. So put a pin in it. So then Fred tells Gun that she can't believe that angel thought Gun meant Wolfram and Hart. But Gun cuts her off, goes to bed. Wesley seems distracted. He leaves as well. And Fred kind of starts to go, hang on. Like, wait a minute. Like, should I be considering this? And then she. Like, we cut to the hallway, and we see Fred sneaking out to head to the limo. And then she comes outside, sees the limo, but then kind of, like, stops. Like, almost like, ooh, should I do this? And then we hear Wes, off screen say, I don't know how long it's been here since before I arrived. And then Fred's like, I thought I'd be the only one. And Wesley says, I thought for sure I wouldn't be. Although I wasn't expecting it to be you. Yeah. What do you think about Fred being the first one that we see heading out there? [00:20:03] Speaker B: I don't know. I think the one thing about this episode that I wish was more expanded on is, like, what made these people decide to go? [00:20:12] Speaker A: Yep. [00:20:12] Speaker B: They don't really say. I understand. Once they're there, they're being basically swayed by the things that they want most in the world. Like, they. They're in their fields, like, they're getting everything that they want. So I get it. Once they're there, I Just wish that there was a little bit more explanation as to, like, why they decide. They all decided to go with the Fred thing. I think it was just, like, a misdirect. I think it was just like, oh, Fred's gonna be the one that's gonna betray everyone. But then you find out that, like, Lauren's already in the limbo and he's, like, partying. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Everybody else is already there. Yeah. Lauren was so funny. I think. I don't know if it was, like, a greater meaning to it. I just think it was, like, a misdirect to be like, oh, look who's betraying them. But then it turns out that they're all there. They're all kind of on the same page. But, yeah, that's just one thing I wish that there was a little bit more on. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting you say that. No, I agree, because critically touched, I don't think I wrote it down. But they were talking about how they feel like they understand completely why Gun, Wes and Angel would do it. They felt like they didn't understand as much why Lauren and Fred would. I disagree slightly. I feel like Lauren makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Simply because we've seen him explain incredibly disillusioned with what's been happening. And I think he just is like, I need to find something different. Fred is the one that I don't know exactly. I feel like I can make an educated guess in that she's just. She's a risk taker. She has no problem being adventurous in doing those. [00:21:48] Speaker B: For me, Gun was the kind of biggest shock, really, because I feel like Gun, out of all of them, has like. Or has had at least the most, like, conviction. Like, he's had the most, like, a lot of reasons other than angel to not go to Wolfram and Heart. [00:22:08] Speaker A: True. Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:10] Speaker B: Like, since he first appeared on the show. So I get why, like, out of all of them, when they go to Wolfram and Heart, I understand why Gunny takes the deal by going there because of what they've been, like, telling us about him for the last two seasons, about how he views himself as the muscle when he's really not. Like, this is a repeated thing for Gun, so I totally get why he's easily swayed once he's there. It's just. Yeah, that was the one that shocked me the most. I could see Wesley doing it. I could see Fred doing it. I could see Lauren doing it. Angela, I could see him doing it. But at the same time, it's kind of like a Little bit like Gun, where he's been so against Wolfram and Heart for so long. But I. But I could rationalize it by, like, okay, maybe he thinks that they can help him find Connor. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I think he's also thinking Cordelia, get her out of the coma that she's in. The other thing I was going to say, I think Gun actually makes a lot of sense for me based upon players. Remember the suit thing where he's, like, trying on a new identity? I think there's this new arena that Gun is, like, very interested in stepping into. And he's. He's very mission minded. I think in his mind, he's like, hey, for the greater good, I could do this. And, like, the whole, we're not lawyers, but, hey, I'm kind of curious about this. This side of the world that, like, I typically am not privy to, you know? [00:23:40] Speaker B: Right. And also now that you say that, it kind of does make sense because, like, when we first were introduced to Gun, he was with the street kids and he had his own thing, and then he met Angel Investigations, and then he decided to go with them because that's where the mission was. So, like, when you frame it like that, I guess I could see it, you know, more resources, more ability to, like, help. I just wish that they had, like, more explicitly, like, explained that a little bit just beforehand. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, I get it, but. Yeah, that. That makes sense when you put it like that. [00:24:13] Speaker A: I mean, on paper, Gun should not be helping Angel, a vampire, like, technically the sworn enemy of the street kids. So I think him jumping to Wolfram and Hart from being with angel is right on brand. For what? [00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it tracks. You know, it does track. This is true. [00:24:28] Speaker A: I feel like you can kind of rationalize almost all of them, but you have to sit there and think about it for a minute. And I. And like you said, I think the show could have done a better job of, like, guiding us there. So. Yeah. Then Gun shows up, and then we have angel popping up, and Angel's like, you know, what the hell? We're just gonna go in. And then we open the door. And Lauren's like, so it's an evil limo. I get that, but does that mean we don't restock the cherries? And then he's like, I love it. Hi. [00:25:00] Speaker B: Honestly, like, he deserves. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Lauren didn't even go to bed. Lauren just walked right out. Oh, I know. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Lauren has been drinking this whole time. Lauren is just forever. Like, just has a buzz forever. It's so funny. Oh, my God. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Can we just, like, take a minute to think about the fact that the show has gotten us to this point where the. The fact that the characters would consider this and be doing this makes logical sense? Because first season angel would never. First season done. Would never. First season Wesley, like, where we are at. It's. It's actually quite impressive that the show has gotten us to this place. So well done show you. You've true. Managed to do it. I don't know how you did, but you pulled it out of your butt and got it here. Got us here. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Do you think if Cordelia was around that she would have taken the deal? [00:25:49] Speaker A: Oh, yes. All they had to do was show her the pretty clothes and the cushy apartment. [00:25:55] Speaker B: I'm talking season. The Cordelia that we saw last. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Oh, I guess I'm thinking season one Cordelia. It's so hard because there's been so many iterations of Cordelia. I don't know who Cordelia is anymore. [00:26:07] Speaker B: I know. [00:26:07] Speaker A: You know, like, to be fair, I. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Genuinely like season one Cordelia. I think she would have been swayed 1000%. The first. [00:26:14] Speaker A: I don't know about season three Cordelia. I maybe. Who knows? But I don't. I don't know if season three Cordelia is actual Cordelia. You know what I mean? Like, I just. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:23] Speaker A: This season has caused me to kind of second guess Cordelia from all the seasons past and stuff. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Literally come back for a season four recap, guys. It's gonna be real juicy. I can promise you that. We've got thoughts. Yeah. Anyway. All right. I think. I think Cordelia would have done this because the show wants her to, but I don't. Yeah. I don't know how they would have justified it anyway. [00:26:46] Speaker B: We would have had to bring her along because she's. She would have been in the main credits, but I guess now that she's. [00:26:50] Speaker A: Not, she stays back at the height Hyperion and decides to start her own Cordelia investigation. And. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually would be down for that. Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Or she goes, peace out, everybody. I'm gonna go and start my own acting or, like, continue my acting career. I'm not doing this anymore. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Give this woman some agency and some, like, ability to make a choice. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Maybe a backstory, a personality that's something of her own. Yeah, I know. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Literally a life. I don't know. Like. Yes. Something fun to do. [00:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Bring Harmony back. Harmony can. For her. Yeah. [00:27:30] Speaker B: She can be her assistant. They can go do their own cute little girly stuff and Then, like, you. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Know, when they're not doing that, we can see them going shopping and dating movie stars and having a blast. Like, I'm here for it. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Agree. [00:27:42] Speaker A: That's the spin off we want. All right, so then we are to the elevator. We have this epic shot where Angel, Fred, Lauren, Wesley and Gun walk off the elevator into the lob lobby. They look around to see a bustling office. There's a big Wolfram and Heart sign in the lobby. Lawyer after lawyer walks by with briefcase saying, Morning, Mr. Angel. The inside is massive. It looks like the inside of a mall. It's big office building. We have a group of lawyers headed by Lila in pink. Oh, I love her outfit. So good. They head towards the gang. Lila's like, well, you've all made it. What a shock. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so best we get started. Let me introduce you to your guides. Can I just say. And I'll talk more about Lila in a little bit, but I really like how Lila has them pegged. She seems to understand them so innately, but she also understands what Wolfram and Hart wants with them as well. Like, Lila's the one holding all the cards here. It's so fascinating to me, and I'm so mad she's not in season five. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Me too. This just makes me even more angry. [00:28:42] Speaker A: I know. So that Angel's like, oh, my gosh, separate guides. You're not going to separate us. And she's like, prioritize and personalize. There's five of you with specific interests. This is efficient. Angel's like, you mean divide and conquer? And she's like, oh, you're so cynical. See, this is going to work out great. Oh, she keeps making little jabs and comparisons. It's so compelling. So then a guy wheels out a bunch of weapons, and Lila's like, if you prefer to be armed, we have no objections. Just because we've tried to kill or corrupt each and every one of you at one time or another doesn't mean we can't be trusted. Wesley's like, she's right. We've made deals with them before. They are honorable and in their way. And then Fred grabs a massive gun and is like, I think we'll be okay. Like, cox it. [00:29:22] Speaker B: This scene was so American when they just pulled out all the weapons and it's all just like, guns. I'm just like, welcome to America. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Welcome to la. That's so true. As an American, I'm just like, whatever. But also, yeah, I'm like, if you're not. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Like, these should be locked up. Like, this is not allowed. [00:29:43] Speaker A: So true. They are villains. Anyway. All right, so a young man named Preston introduces himself to Lauren to show him around the entertainment division. Gives him a peep at some of the talent they represent. Lauren's like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think you have to tell me what your present represent here, young man. I know. Evil. Pure evil. In the. And then Preston flips through the pages and he did. It's like, huh. Which is also apparently everyone I've always wanted to meet. And then they just like chuckle and laugh and like, head off. [00:30:11] Speaker B: First name on that list is P. Diddy. How much do you want to bet? [00:30:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, literally. Then JLo. [00:30:20] Speaker B: Right? [00:30:20] Speaker A: Then Jay Z, Jay Z, JLo, Beyonce. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah, all of them. Yep. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Lila introduces Wes to a distinguished man that has watcher all over him. Watcher energy everywhere. Hands over Lacy, the girl gun is eyeing. And then he's all like, you're not going to try to corrupt me, are you? And she's like, wouldn't dream of it. And he's like, we'll have to work. [00:30:42] Speaker B: On a little flirt. Oh, my God, your girlfriend. Stop flirting with other girls. [00:30:49] Speaker A: It's cute. Also, what happened to Gwen? Was that just a one night thing? [00:30:55] Speaker B: I guess she got her little device thing and now she's off living like a normal life. Maybe still thieving. I don't know. Good for her. Get away from this place. It's been a mess over here. Just go. [00:31:06] Speaker A: She got some. And then she got out. And then you know what? [00:31:09] Speaker B: Good for her, honestly. Yeah, I love that for Gwen. [00:31:13] Speaker A: And then she introduces Knox, which is another. Another Whedon favorite. Holden Woodward. Yes. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Conversations. [00:31:22] Speaker A: He's also in Firefly. Like, he is a Whedon favorite for sure. He's pretty charming. [00:31:29] Speaker B: He is. He's a good actor. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah, he is. So then angel kind of sighs. He realizes that Lila's his guide and she's like, come on, Charlie, let me show you around the chalk chocolate factory. [00:31:39] Speaker B: I don't know. I like this team up. I think it. I think it makes sense. [00:31:42] Speaker A: It makes so much sense. And she saved the hardest cookie to crack. Actually, cookies don't crack the hardest nut to crack. Thank you. You're like, yes, yes. Whatever you say, Sarah. Hardest cookie to crumble. Nut to crack. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Also, I just love when they share a screen together because they're great on screen together at all times. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Yeah. [00:32:07] Speaker B: So much sass and banter. [00:32:09] Speaker A: I just love it. Yeah. Yeah. Unlike season five. So Then upstairs. Could you imagine that one particular episode in season? [00:32:17] Speaker B: Don't even tell me about that, because I will literally scream. [00:32:22] Speaker A: We're gonna. We're gonna be bringing this up all season five. Let's just pretend it's Lila in our heads. We should. [00:32:27] Speaker B: We can just, like, re. What I can do is since I have Photoshop, I can just, like, cut out the face of that every episode. [00:32:33] Speaker A: You're just gonna. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Lila's face on it. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Rewrite scripts, rewrite the storylines. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah, and then. Yeah, and then we can just have Lila. But it's just us. Nobody else will have Lila. It'll just be me and you. [00:32:47] Speaker A: Okay, I'm writing this down. We're gonna talk about Lila in the season four recap as well. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Okay, but if Lila is in season five, then that changes the trajectory of, like, some storylines, which I think. [00:32:57] Speaker A: But it could. Or there could have been some juicy things that we've been paid off since season one. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Okay, well, fuck. [00:33:09] Speaker A: I know, right? Because I thought that, too. And then I was like, hang on. They know each other. I'm just saying, I think they wrote it with Lila in mind and then had to change it out to be someone else and kept some stuff. [00:33:19] Speaker B: God damn it. [00:33:21] Speaker A: I know. I'm sorry if there's people listening that have no clue. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah, they're like, what's happening right now? [00:33:26] Speaker A: They're like, I've seen that season, but I don't remember. I love that we're, like, on the same page, because you know exactly what I'm talking about right now. Well, we'll talk about it in the recap, guys. Don't worry about it. And I'm going to completely forget about it. And then someone's gonna be like, what did you guys mean? [00:33:40] Speaker B: I need to know. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Okay. [00:33:43] Speaker B: All right. [00:33:44] Speaker A: So upstairs, Gun tells Lacy that this was slick isolating Angel. And Lacy's like, what do you. What makes you think Angels are priority and Guns? Like, you're telling me he isn't. She's like, he is a priority, though. You each possess gifts we feel would be useful. And Gun's like, well, I see what the others got. Fred's the big brain. Wes is training Lauren's mind reading thing. Guess I just don't know what you guys expect me to do around. And then we see the office labeled security. And he's like, oh, I think I'm starting to figure it out. Yeah, but I'd look real smart in one of them blazers. And Lacy's like, oh, I'm sure you would. But we have much grander plans for you, Mr. Gun. And he's like, hang on, you've got my attention. And she goes, let's go upstairs. And we're like, hang on. I know what that means. I know these. [00:34:27] Speaker B: Wait a minute. Yeah. [00:34:29] Speaker A: So then in the hallway, Knox is nerdy. He and Fred seem to be hitting it off. He says that he's not the head of the department, that it's actually Fred. And then we see the new state of the art lab, complete with lasers and such. My favorite part that critically touch pointed out, was you walk into the room and there's a laser that's literally opening a portal. And Fred doesn't bat an eye because it's just easy. [00:34:51] Speaker B: And also, who cares? No big deal. [00:34:56] Speaker A: Just throwing away, like years of development out the window. [00:34:59] Speaker B: It's fine. She's over it now. No worries. [00:35:05] Speaker A: New new year, new Fred, new season. So Fred's odd. Knox tells her that it's nothing he can make anything out of a fully equipped multi million dollar lab. And then we go into a reading room. Cirque though X watchers leading Wesley into a wood paneled room with a table in the center. There's three dozen or so leather bound books all lined up neatly arranged in a row. And he's like, our ancient Wesley just. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Like, peed his pants real quick. [00:35:32] Speaker A: He looks real unimpressed. [00:35:33] Speaker B: He's just like a dog. I know, but like, inside he's probably just like a. Like a poorly socialized, like, Chihuahua. Just like, so excited. Just like. Yeah, wiggling his tail. Like, you know when you walk into somebody's house and their dog is so excited they just pee on the floor. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Like, I feel like that's what Wesley feels like on the inside right now. [00:35:55] Speaker A: All right. But he doesn't let any of it show. So we're just gonna keep that. Someone write that fan picture. No, don't. [00:36:07] Speaker B: He's like a. Just poorly socialized dog. Just gets so excited and pees on. [00:36:12] Speaker A: Your leg, starts humping his leg. Oh, that's so funny. He's like, well, looks as if your wing's been clipped and circus. Like appearances can be deceiving. He's like, it's actually the most comprehensive CL collection of prophecy archives to be found anywhere. Choose something to read, he says. Something rare. So then west names a codex Cirque, chooses a book, speaks to it, then hands it to Wes, who opens it to a blank page that suddenly, mystically fills with script. And he's like, the template you're holding provides access to anything stored in the Firm's locked archives related to prophecies, omens, revelations, and so on. And Wesley's like, impressive. So does the Watchers Council know you stole the only known copy of the Codex when you left? And circus, like, there is no counsel. Wesley is like, not anymore. No. Ooh, I love these references. Yeah. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Also, sorry, can we just go back to the fact that Wesley basically called this man a loser because he doesn't have a lot of books, seemingly. He's just like, what the hell is this garbage? [00:37:14] Speaker A: And also a thief and an imposter. Yeah, we should have seen him hitting this guy above the head like, a mile away. [00:37:21] Speaker B: Seriously, for the Council. [00:37:23] Speaker A: And just, like, knocks him out. [00:37:27] Speaker B: Fuck is it? [00:37:27] Speaker A: I'll make you proud, Father. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Father. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Father. I have. Have you seen that? Like, anime? [00:37:36] Speaker B: No, I haven't. [00:37:38] Speaker A: No. The Trail. I haven't seen it. But, like, the trailer for that, he's like, dad, I need to be on my own. It's like the really sassy Pinocchio. That sounds really, really, like. [00:37:47] Speaker B: Like a yassified Pinocchio. Pinocchio. [00:37:53] Speaker A: They didn't intentionally do it, but it seems like, father, I need to be on my own. And he sounds, like, very, very gay. And I don't think they meant him to be. But, like, the voice actor, I think is actually gay. And so he just added that inflection. It's so funny now. So anytime, like, yeah, anyway, I'll send it to you. It's pretty funny. [00:38:12] Speaker B: They yassify everything. I saw them yassifying Nosferatu. That's. That was pretty fun. Oh, you're just voguing. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Like, the actual video or the movie? [00:38:24] Speaker B: No, it's not out until Christmas Day, but people are, like, already hyping it up. There's people who dressed up as Nosferatu for Halloween, and they were just, like, voguing, like, on the Internet. It was just amazing. [00:38:36] Speaker A: That's so funny. They do. [00:38:37] Speaker B: I always send them to Rob because he's just like, what is this? [00:38:40] Speaker A: Rob's, like, again? Shout out to Rob. We love you. [00:38:44] Speaker B: We love you, Robbie. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Where was I? Oh, yeah. Okay. So then Wesley's like, not anymore. So. Oh, yeah. You opted to, what, play for the other side? Cross the line? Yeah, he did. I'm just kidding. Oh, like you were talking about. Yes. Vacation. Anyway, Cirque says, these are complicated times. The other. Other side. Leia. Poof. I'm tired. Anyway, he's like, lines become blurry. How did you know? And I was like, oh, buddy, you scream Watcher. Like, I saw you and was like, watcher. I like that. He was like, these are complicated times. Lines become blurry again. This is kind of like an interesting parallel to the choice made at the very end. And Wesley obviously kind of replaces this guy, and he's. He's not. He's kind of judging the guy a little bit here, and yet he ends up making the right. The same decision. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Well, but it's like, Wesley, you're not one to judge anybody because of the. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Decisions that you've made tied up in your closet. [00:39:44] Speaker B: You stole your son, your friend's son, and gave him to his enemy. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Like, Wesley, you were sleeping with the enemy. Literally. Like, come on. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Like, calm down. Sit down. [00:39:54] Speaker A: Like, trying to take the moral high ground when he hasn't even apologized for any of those things. [00:39:58] Speaker B: Seriously. Yeah, yeah, Just like, classic, man. Just like, I do no wrong. Classic Wesley. [00:40:05] Speaker A: Just Wesley. Just one of the boys. [00:40:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:09] Speaker A: So anyway, Wesley knocks him out and then just pulls out a cable and then shoots it into the ceiling from this wrist thing he's wearing. And then we've spent a while since we've seen this. [00:40:18] Speaker B: Hey, this was kind of crazy. [00:40:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I was like, oh, okay. All right. Then he's like, you can't catch me slipping. [00:40:28] Speaker B: What do you like to know, weather boy? [00:40:31] Speaker A: Just watcher boy. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Watcher boy. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Daddy, I'm on my own. No. Anyway, back in the office. This is just getting out of hand. [00:40:50] Speaker B: Okay, we're done. We're done. Cut the mic. [00:40:55] Speaker A: I'm so tired, dude. When I'm tired, the filter goes. And I just say whatever's. [00:41:00] Speaker B: I'm not cutting any of this. [00:41:05] Speaker A: We are so happy Season four is over. [00:41:07] Speaker B: People are gonna be like, what is this freaking podcast? [00:41:10] Speaker A: I know. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Anyway, I'm sorry. [00:41:12] Speaker A: So different from our first episode. Going back to, like, how serious we were. Now we're just like, yes, queen. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you go up. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Anyway. Okay. I gotta get my breath. Okay, okay. Back in the office, Lila and Angel are walking down the hall. Well, it's. We're heading towards the office. Angel's very unimpressed. Lila opens some double doors, bringing angel into the largest office space that we've ever seen. Hey, it fits. Everybody can be a boss in here. There's enough room for Wesley, Gun, and Angel to all be the boss. This is great. He has a private elevator just for him. Angel's still very skeptical as Lila tells him that the elevator takes him to the garage. He's like, thanks, I already have a car. And I was like, do you? We literally haven't seen it all season long. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Where's the Batmobile? [00:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And she's like, well, now you have 12. Which is, you know, foreshadowing because he does have 12 vehicles next season, and he doesn't use his OG1, which is sad. Yeah. So then she opens the windows and angel recoils, expecting to burst into flame. Except he doesn't, as he's standing in sunlight. And thank God they added this in, because I'm so tired of angel standing in, like, pretty much, like, full on sunshine and then being like, seriously, like, actual sunshine. So it doesn't really count. Now we can, like, actually, at this. [00:42:32] Speaker B: Point, David Boyana is like, surely has a vitamin D deficiency because he's just been filming in the dark for, like, how many years? [00:42:40] Speaker A: He was, like, in a basement seven years. Jealous for, like, four weeks straight as. He's like. [00:42:45] Speaker B: He's, like, malnourished from vitamin D. He's taking supplements. [00:42:50] Speaker A: I do know James Masters talked about how, like, he bought a house by the ocean, like, right by the beach with his Buffy money, and then realized that he couldn't get a tan. He couldn't actually stay pale. [00:43:02] Speaker B: And so he said he was really. [00:43:04] Speaker A: Annoyed he had to stay inside his beach house the entire time. Couldn't go out into the beach, and. [00:43:09] Speaker B: He had to bleach his hair probably, like, every week. Oh, my God, his scalp must have been. He said his scalp was destroyed. [00:43:16] Speaker A: I'm surprised. [00:43:17] Speaker B: I don't even want to think about. [00:43:17] Speaker A: It as he does now. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:43:21] Speaker A: Anyway, okay. So then she's like, it's necro tempered glass. The whole building's fitted with it. Helps keep those uplifting, wholesome rays from Char Royal in the Boss. And 30 more energy efficient. Angel just, like, basks in the light. And she says, feels even better when you're naked. I could turn around. And then he gets all angry again. He's like, close the windows. I can't experience joy. Can't let myself be happy. He's like, I'm not taking the job. I'm gonna be miserable because that's how God made me. And I was like, inflection is all mine. [00:43:56] Speaker B: But, you know, he. Exactly what angel sounded like. That's exactly what he sounded like. [00:44:01] Speaker A: You know, artistic liberty in my version. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:44:05] Speaker A: So Lila's like, well, be miserable. Fine. Your choice. She's like, think of what you can do with the resources of Wolfram and Hart at your fingertips. The differences that would make. It's so interesting her saying, like, your choice. And, like, this whole Thing is played out, like, this is your choice. And at the end, angel makes the choice for everyone. Like, it's so interesting, the comparisons being made between angel and Wolfram and Hart. And at the end of the day, like, he took away certain people's choices. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Right. But I also do feel like this deal with Wolf Women Heart is being presented as a choice that they have to make. But, like, what would have happened had they said no? Like, is it really a choice? Or is this like, you're taking this deal? Because it doesn't really sound like they have a choice in the matter. Like, it sounds like they're doing the formalities. But at the end of the day, like, it would have been interesting to see, like, what if one of them didn't take the deal? Like, what would have happened? Would they have been eliminated? [00:44:58] Speaker A: Like, it could have been. Yeah, it could have been that, like, Wolfram and Hart knew they were going to. And so, like, in their minds, they didn't have to threaten them all that much because, like, they were not going. [00:45:07] Speaker B: To take no for an answer either way from any of them. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Solid. Yeah. So then Lila says something very interesting. And it's actually a massive call back to Deep Down. She says, again, your choice. Think of what you can do with the resources of Wolfram and Heart at your fingertips. The differences that would make. Nothing in this world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and it's cruel, but that's why there's you, Angel. You live as if the world were as it should be. With all this, you can make it that way. People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast least. And so this is Angel's speech to Connor in Deep Down. He says, nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. And that bay is even more polluted than you're thinking. Wow. I'll tell you. But that's why there's us champions. Doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we ever made it make a difference. We live as though the world were as it should be. To show it what it can be. You're not a part of that yet. I hope you will be. I love you, Connor. Which is so interesting. Also really sad, the whole I hope you will be. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he. He doesn't. Yeah, that is really sad. I think you're like, that's really sad. Sorry. [00:46:22] Speaker A: Anyway, moving on. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:23] Speaker A: So many different. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I just. I think, although I like the callback and I do like this idea because I think it encompasses, like, nothing we do matters. It just kind of feels a little shallow to me at this point because these people are not living in that manner. They haven't been for a long time. So it's like when she says that to Angel, I'm like, why would that persuade him when that's, like, the furthest thing that he's thinking about and has been thinking about for a very long time all season. [00:46:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's fair. And, I mean, I think there is an argument to be made that there hasn't been enough time since Faith kind of set them all back on their path and now for them to really, like, be like, yeah, okay, we're living by this motto again, because, like, Faith left, Jasmine appeared. So there hasn't been, like, that much time. But at the same time, like, it has been, like, two full seasons now where I feel like they haven't been doing the mission. So it does make it. It feels like an echo of seasons far, far past, past long ago. And it's like, this would be really nice. I'd love for us to get back on this track. But it's almost like, I don't know that angel really cares that much about the mission at this point. I think what he truly cares about is his son and the family that he wanted, you know? [00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker A: So. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So then Lila says, or I guess angel says, the. The beast's belly. Doesn't that usually mean you've been eaten? She says, maybe while you've been Namby Pam being around for the past 90 seconds, six innocent people have died. Oh, but don't worry. There's always 6,000 more just around the corner or up the coast, which. This is really interesting. The whole, like, the beast's belly. Doesn't that usually mean you've been eaten? There was a. That's an interesting parallel to what Lila was saying early on about how the people that gave themselves up to Jasmine did so willingly and, like, Lauren was like, you know, they willingly went to their stomach. There's an interesting parallel there of, like, the team possibly doing something similar by getting into the. The belly of the Beast of Wolfram and Hart in order to maybe have a better chance at doing the mission and all that other stuff. Like, there's an interesting, like, warning there, kind of for the gang. But. Yeah. So then she hands Angel a file. As soon as she picks up the file, the music changes. And it's extremely similar to I will remember you, the music from season one. It's very reminiscent to all of that. It's a very specific sound that reminds us of Angel's mission and also of Buffy. Honestly, it's very reminiscent of that season. Yeah. So he opens the file, and it says Sunnydale. And there's an amulet, and it's for Buffy. And we actually say Buffy. Whoa. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I just. I find it really interesting that she offers him to try to sway him. Lila offers him the son, which is something that angel desperately wants. She offers him to help Buffy, and then finally, she offers him his son. And, like, these are the three things that, like, she tries to use. Like, it's just interesting that these are the three things that they try to sway him with, you know? [00:49:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you could argue that there are specific points on this show where angel has been tempted and challenged, and it was in the dark. I will remember you. And then with season three, I would even say with having a family with Cordelia and Connor. And so by Connor being the thing for angel, be like, okay, that's. That's what I'm willing to bargain with is very, very interesting. And it continues on with both his and Connor's shared dream of having that family unit that they've always wanted. But, yeah, it's very, very fascinating. I like that he puts the amulet back in the file and says, Buffy can handle herself. Oh, I just love his trust in her and his faith in her. And the fact that, like, there's just this understanding that both of them have their mission and both of them are going to be capable enough to handle. It's just. I love it. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Well, I also think that, like, angel knows what Wolfram and Hart is about, and he doesn't want. He doesn't trust them. So why would he take information that's supposedly going to help Buffy and take it to her? You know what I mean? Especially with, like, a big battle. Like, I think this is angel being strategic, too. Like, being like, yeah, okay, they're not trustworthy. And I don't want to get her mixed up in all this because if they start messing with the Slayer, like, that's. So. I think it's also, like, from a. From, like, a protective point of view. [00:51:15] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, possibly Lila's like, but isn't it more fun when you handle her? And he says, keep the intel not interested. And then once he says he's not going to, the music stops. And then obviously, we then have Lila Saying, all right, well, not in this case. So how about open homicide, Missing persons? Angel stops walking. She says, h, I knew there had to be a reason you took the tour. Dead, not stupid. He says, what do you know? And she says, about where Cordelia and your son are. Not a thing. But you could find out in about 10 seconds. All you got to do is pick up the phone, boss. So then he picks up the phone, says, and puts it back down and says, I'm sorry what happened to you, Lila. I really am. Me and my friends will be leaving now. The telephone rings. Lla answers it. And then she's like, the senior part. Partners would like you to test all the amenities before you make your decision. She presses a remote control button, reveals a television playing a news report. This high def TV has Angels attention, which is so funny. Goes, oh, is that high def? So funny. I was like, is that David Bonus on boys hockey? So then we see a bomb unit has been called in. And then we see that the suspect is Connor. Angel grabs Lila by the throat, and he's like, hey, what do you know? You set this whole thing up. He wants her to call the senior partners again. Make it stop. Lila's like, we didn't have anything to do with it. Angel's like, but you know who did? And she says, yeah, I'm looking at him. You're the one who raised him. Or didn't. Then angel lets her go. And then she says, can't imagine how the kid turned out postal. Oh, man. Angel says, you don't know a thing about Connor. Let's keep it that way. And then she says, one time, offer only. Angel walk out the door, deals off, stay, and it's all yours. And he says, people like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lila. I will never be a part of this. This. And then he looks at Connor and he says, not the way you're hoping. Now tell me. Now, let me tell you what the deal's gonna be. Hook, line, and sinker, man. So then back to the elevator. Gun and Lacey are heading up. And guns like cutting eyes at her. You know, hard eyes shooting out. And then he's like, hang on. This is the longest elevator ride I've ever been on. And Lacy's like, it's time. Then the white button appears, and guns like, oh, no, get me out of here. I know what this is. And she's like, the answers. You see Kalai within the room. And then guns like, the only thing I seek is the lobby already rubbed Elbows with Little Miss Muffet once, which is really interesting. Little Miss Muffet. Because we have the whole Little Miss Muffet sat on her tuffet. Little Miss Muffet Countdown to 730 with. In reference to Glory. So there's a very interesting parallel between, like, a godlike being possibly with the. The partners with Wolfram and Heart and Glory and tie ins and stuff, which is very fascinating. So then we have Gun feeding to the white room. Lacy's gone. He's like, all right, come on. You've got the wrong guy in here. This room's for the big. And he says, cats. And then we see a black panther walk towards him. And he's like, think I preferred the little girl. And then the black panther just, like, walks towards Gun. They stare at each other. Gun looks into the cat's eyes, sees his own reflection. And then he smiles and the panther roars. Which is really interesting because we had Gun picking up that cat figurine when he was with Gwen. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:31] Speaker A: So it's gonna be very interesting to see what they do with Gun. Moving into the next season, apparently, according to J. August Richards, while they were filming, he was actually on the stage with the big cat, the big leopard, and it got out of its chain. And Tim Byer says that Jay, thankfully, didn't tell him until the shot was done and they had it back in its chain. He goes. Because I would have run screaming from the room like a little girl. [00:54:56] Speaker B: Oh, my God. He just kept his cool. [00:54:59] Speaker A: He just kept his cool. Isn't that crazy? [00:55:01] Speaker B: That's crazy. Oh, my God. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Yeah. What was going on in there? [00:55:05] Speaker B: Screaming and crying, throwing up, literally. [00:55:09] Speaker A: Also. Also very interesting that guns, I guess you could say, almost like spirit guide takes the form of a black panther. And we have the Puma, which acts as Buffy spirit guide in Intervention. So very interesting. Like, cats tend to be this mythological spirit guide thing in the Buffy verse. [00:55:29] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:55:30] Speaker A: So then we are at a sporting goods store. The police have surrounded it with cars and helicopters. People are sitting on the floor inside wired to makeshift explosive devices fashioned from propane canisters taped to each person's chest. One man is sitting with his arm around a little girl who's crying uncontrollably. He's, like, whispering, shut up. Shut up. Connor comes behind him and yells at him, says, you need to hold her, right? And be nice to the girl. Then he stands and walks over to a stash of car batteries and checks that the people's wires are attached. And he says then he, like, senses Angels there. And he's like, you got in. I thought you might. And then we pan out to show angel standing on the balcony of the upstairs section of the store. He leaps down to the main level where Connor and his hostages are. And we cut to the records room. Now. So Wesley drops down from the ceiling and then punches the records room guy. I was like, oh, no, Flow. Flow's not there anymore. And then he turns and sees that the files just go on for, like. Like, seemingly miles. He checks them until he finds one. And then Lila appears and is like, hey, I was wondering how long it would take you to get here. Oh, I love this scene. Wesley goes, how'd I do? And it's so interesting because this is when you really get to know Wesley's motivations for why he went on the tour. He went on the tour, obviously, because he was curious, but I think he went to rescue Lila. I think he was always trying to get to the records room. And it's so interesting because Lila doesn't know that he. She knows he would want to go to the records room, but she thinks he wants to come here because he wants information on how Wolfram Hart thinks she doesn't know that he's doing it for her, which just, like, it catches her off guard. [00:57:08] Speaker B: And she's been, like, five steps ahead of everybody in this episode. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Yep. [00:57:13] Speaker B: And it just makes so much sense that it would be Wesley. [00:57:16] Speaker A: And it really is, like. Like, so oddly beautiful. Like, again, it is the healthiest relationship in the entire show. [00:57:24] Speaker B: Oh, what the hell? [00:57:26] Speaker A: It is interesting, though. I'm curious, and we'll talk about it more once we get there. I'm curious why Wesley agrees to work for Wolfram and Hart at the end when he's not able to rescue Lila. And I'm curious, if Connor doesn't exist in Wesley's mind and everything has been erased, is it possible that he doesn't remember his relationship with Lila at the end? And does Lila that that would be a consequence of Angels wish. [00:57:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point because. Really good point. [00:58:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Because if that's the case. So reading angel has a really interesting thing where they're talking about how they feel like this whole experience is Lila's one last gift to Wesley. How she not only gifts him the knowledge of Wolfram and Heart that she herself has been privy to. Like, almost like, hey, this is what I wanted. Now I'm giving it to you. And in doing so, allows him to kind of get to know, like, the last bit of herself, but also she gives him the chance to start over in a life where he doesn't have to remember her and the pain that she caused him. Which is just really sad to think. Heart wrenching, but also, like, really beautiful, too. [00:58:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I hadn't really thought of that. And that makes so much sense because I totally agree that Wesley's motivation to go to Wolfram Heart was to set Lila free, to give her peace. So in the end, when he does agree to, like, stay, it does make you wonder, like, I hadn't thought about it. But now that you say that, like, yeah, technically, if he had never given Connor away to Holtz, then he would have never been outcast and he would have never went and had a relationship with Lila. Like, all of that stuff never would have happened. And so this is. We're talking like, a Wesley from, like, a Wesley that hasn't been changed by these things. So he would still be the, like, watcher Wesley that's, like, swayed by, like, knowledge and books and stuff. [00:59:28] Speaker A: Well, remember the whole conversation about shades of gray? She's giving him the opportunity to kind of have the slate be clean and have him take away the gray out of him, the black out of him, and give him the white all over again. Because, I mean, I think one of the. The more poignant parts of the episode is at the very end when Angels talking to Lila and says, I want to see him talking about Connor. And Lila's like, that's not part of the deal. And he, like, says, I want to. And she goes, okay. And she tells him where. And then she walks out of frame and leaves, and he walks forward and then the game, and he leaves and the gang goes, who's Connor? With Lila gone behind, she doesn't say goodbye to Wesley. Almost as if. [01:00:07] Speaker B: If they don't know each other, they. [01:00:09] Speaker A: Don'T know each other. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:12] Speaker A: Anyway, okay, so this scene, Lila says, a little slower than I would have thought, but then you always did like to take your time. So you finally made it, got behind the facade, and here it is. Every dirty little scheme, every secret, all that evil great and small. Just imagine what you could accomplish with that kind of information. She knows this is what he's wanted. And I think there's been that. Lila, at this point until. Until he pulls out the contract, doesn't realize that Wesley cared for her the same way that she does. Was. I think she suspected it. But, like, when he does that, it verifies it. This moment right here where she's like, this is everything. Because if you remember all season long. She was constantly one step ahead of him. She was constantly lying to him and he was hurt by that. And this is her going, this is all of me. This is everything laid bare. I want you to see every aspect of me. Because she's like, this was real for me and I cared about you. And then in turn, he goes and burns the contract up and she realizes, oh my gosh, it was real for you too. Like, yeah, it's so. [01:01:08] Speaker B: Well, so reminds me of the scene when he, like when they're in the basement and he's about to behead her and he's like, imagining her talking to him and she's telling him that, like, he wanted to save her. And Wesley's like, no, I didn't want that. Like you didn't want to be saved, blah, blah, blah. But that's all in Wesley's head. Like, that is what Wesley wanted. And it, like, pays off here. And it's just so beautiful. [01:01:35] Speaker A: It's very, very beautiful. So reading angel says Lila facilitates a deal that gives everyone their heart's desire, with the notable exception of Wesley. Wesley, on the other hand, is given a disappointing tour of the ancient Prophecies Wing, which seems a regression for his current character. He opts out of his tour by disabling the former watcher, an echo of his former self, and uses his new skills to find, or to be allowed to find, where all the secrets of Wolfman Hart lie, complete with Lila awaiting for him with yet more unhappy truths. Unlike in the comforting fairy tale of salvage, Wesley cannot burn Lila's eternal contract, allowing her peace and himself moral justification. Lila's existence lingers like her irritated beheading scar, perpetual evidence that Lila cannot be quietly disposed of and sugarcoated, and that Wesley's failure remains real and with consequences he cannot eulogize away. And then they go on to talk about how. The second twist, however, is that Wesley cannot do the impossible on the strength of his devotion or his desire to save Lila. The contract burns, but is unbroken, which is almost unheard of in a fictional situation like the one between Wesley and Lila. No loophole is found, no last minute miracle. Lla stays contracted, and her reaction is the third surprise of the sequence. There is no. There are no bitter remonstrations, no open avowals of love or unending devotion. Instead, Lla's reaction is at least intone forgiveness. Flames wouldn't be eternal if they actually consumed anything, she tells Wesley gently, but it means something that you tried. And they go on. They kind of hypothesize I don't know fully how I feel about it, but they kind of talk about how this is. It appears to them that, like the femme fatale, which is Lila rather than the detective, angel is the one controlling things at the last. And the queen of Los Angeles, rather than the champion angel, who's about to sacrifice his son and his friend's memories before or because Connor is apparently unsavable as he is, is the one demonstrating the much vaunted Whedon virtue of forgiveness. Lila, rather than Wesley, is sending her lover over, having gained proof at last that he has recognized his investment in their affair. Thus, he may be renewed with the rest of his friends by Angel, Angels cleansing, mind wipe and reality alteration, having given all the gifts she can, the possibility of knowledge, and the renewal that only Lila's real forgiveness, not merely the empty words of a neutered ghost, can provide. So it's kind of like a nice little closure for Wesley that he didn't get before and that he actually gets now. And honestly, it's a. It's a shame again, that she's not in season five, but this is honestly a really beautiful ending for her character and for their relationship. So. And also that continued theme of, like, Wesley wanting that fairy tale, it's very, very interesting. And Lila, deep down, kind of knowing that that's what Wesley wants and so trying to give it to him through brokering that deal with angel, like, because you could it. They don't really say, but you could say it's possible that Angel's like, hey, I want Connor's memory erased and I want him placed with a family. And I wonder if Lila was the one to say, hey, how about we erase everybody's memory so they don't know about. Like, I wonder if Lila brought that up up because she wants Wesley's memory erase. I don't know. Like, who knows? But it's very interesting. So then back in the sporting goods store, we now have Connor putting something on his. Angel cautiously walks towards him. It's really interesting. I did not understand why they had this whole thing happening in a sporting goods store. I was like, this is so random. But critically touched. Had a really good point. They said Connor's centerpiece scene all season really is between him and angel in that. That sports store. This also happens to be the emotional centerpiece of the entire episode. When I first saw that Connor was in a sports store, of all places, it felt extremely out of place. This just isn't the sort of setting I'm used to seeing on Angel. And at first glance, it's a pretty strange place to have a dramatic standoff without hostages where with hostages rigged with explosives. But then I started thinking about it a little more and realized that maybe it's actually the perfect place for Connor's old life to end. This place represent, represents everything Connor never got the option to have. It reminds him what his life has been like even back in our dimension. No consistent family unit, no games, no sports, no hope, no life, no future. This kid has had a horrible life on the scale of which is genuinely hard for me to even imagine. And without any consistent friend or family that's been looking out for him, who's going to be there to help him when he needs it? And I also think, like, there's a little possible nod back to season three, when angel had the tiny little sports jersey for baby Connor and was so excited to see who Connor would become. And talking about him wanting to do sports. This is the life that Connor was robbed of. So it's fitting that it's here. Which just makes me so sad. So there's an explosion behind Angel. He jumps. The hostages start crying. Connor's just completely calm and uninfected. He says, you might not want to move. Everyone's rigged. Can't save a mal, dad. Don't know who's going to be first. First could be any one of them. This could even kind of relate to the Scooby, or not Scoobies, but his Angel Investigations team as well. He says, could be me. And then he points to Cordelia, who's still unconscious on the floor. And she's also wired. He says, could be her. Angel says, son, you have to listen to me. This is about Jasmine. And Connor says, jasmine's gone. Angel says, I know. We all felt it. That perfect love. Then when you had to give it up. And Connor says, and very violently, I didn't feel anything. I can't feel anything. I guess I really am your son because I'm dead too. Oh, this poor kid. [01:07:05] Speaker B: This whole scene is just so dark and like emotionally just heart wrenching. The whole thing just like the, the bomb strapped to everybody. And it's just. I don't know, it's just really dark. Like I'm. I'm surprised they like, let this air on tv. Honestly, like, it was, was. It was a lot. [01:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:07:26] Speaker B: But it's still. It's beautiful. Like, it's a. It's a great, like, scene. They did such a good job, both of these guys. [01:07:34] Speaker A: I agree. Yeah. This is the scene where I'M just like, ah, Vincent Karthiser is actually a phenomenal actor. And I mean, we saw this back in the previous episode as well, but, like, we're finally getting to see a little bit more of his range. And I'm sure he enjoyed playing more of this as well. [01:07:51] Speaker B: This is honestly. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Okay. [01:07:53] Speaker B: Sorry. I just want to add, like, I think this is probably the most devastated we've seen angel since he couldn't save Darla in the trial, I think. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:05] Speaker B: And then before then, it was I will remember you and hero. Like, I genuinely think that this was the next, like, the next thing. It was. Yeah. We haven't seen angel this, like, affected in a very long time either. And David, Brianna's did such a good job. He just looks, like, absolutely sick to his stomach. [01:08:24] Speaker A: I just wish so much that there had been more of a buildup between the bond between these two characters for this entire season. Because obviously we know angel cares about Connor, but there's been so many episodes where it was like, do you care about him? You don't seem as worried about him. I also wish there were episodes where the two of them connected more. We got to see them doing more stuff. Stuff. Not that this doesn't hit hard, because it does. But I just think that it could have been even more gut wrenching if we'd seen the bond between them actually growing and it getting to the point where, like, Connor's just like, it's not enough. You know what I mean? Because I think right here we're like, oh, but you guys haven't had the chance to connect. If you did actually connect Connor, you wouldn't feel this way. But Connor hasn't been able to. And I guess that's also kind of the point of angel having to give him his own family. Yeah. But it's just devastating. [01:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:16] Speaker A: So Angel's like, you're not dead. You're just starting your life. Connor says, no, you just weren't there before. Angel says, tears welling up in his eyes. I know, I'm so. And then Connor says, do not say you're sorry. Doesn't fix anything. Angel says, okay, look, let me say this. I love you, son. And Connor says, it's a lie. Angel says, it's not. Connor says, it's always a lie. And he hangs his head and he goes, my dead mother couldn't even love me. Angel says, you're wrong. She did. And then Connor says, no, no, she knew she couldn't. Angel says, she sacrificed herself because she loved you. Connor says, you tried to Love me. At least I think you did. Angel says, I still do. Connor says, but not enough to hang on. Dad. You let him take me. You let him get me. You let him get me. And then he turns to Cordelia, says, you swore you loved me. Where are you now? It's like, don't bring Courtney into this. This is a great moment between the two. Yeah, we don't need court. [01:10:06] Speaker B: That pulled me out of the scene. I was like. I thought we. We were. I thought we were over this. [01:10:11] Speaker A: Yeah, Come on, man. Yeah, I am. [01:10:15] Speaker B: I'm, like, welling up. And then he turns. Cordelia. [01:10:19] Speaker A: Tears just get sucked right back inside. Yeah, you had your moment with Cordelia last episode. Let's. Let's move on. [01:10:25] Speaker B: Let's. Please. [01:10:26] Speaker A: So then angel, like, says, connor, you have to believe that there are people who love you. And Connor says, jasmine believed you when you said you loved her, but it was all a lie. Angel says, jasmine was the lie. Connor says, no, she knew if you found out who she really was, was that you'd turn against her. And she was right. That's just what happened. People like you, people like this, none of you deserve what she could give you. She wanted to give you everything. Angel says, I know how that feels because I want to give you everything. I want to take back the mistakes, help you start over. Connor says, we can't start over. And angel says, we can. I mean, we can change things. Connor says, there's only one thing that ever changes anything, and that's death. Angel starts to cry. And then he says. Says. And then Connor says, everything else just is. Is just a lie. He starts to cry. You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all. And then he starts to activate his explosive. And then before he can harm himself, they fight. And in the midst of it all, angel gets a knife and throws it at Connor and then pulls it out of him, and then stands over Connor, the knife covered in blood, and says, I really do love you, Connor. And then Connor says, so, what are you gonna do about it? And then angel says, prove it. And then he sweeps his knife down and it's implied that he kills Connor, which is interesting. The prophecy fulfills that prophecy that was supposedly false. So, yeah, yeah, he gives him a chance to start a new life by effectively killing his old one. And, yeah, it's. It's very, very interesting. [01:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah, this scene is just. Just absolutely just. I was telling you, we were texting before, like, when I was watching this, and I was just like, this Is, like, hands down, probably the best scene, I think, since season three. Like, in the last two seasons. Like, I feel like it's a culmination of, like, everything that's happened. And it's so tragic because all of the things that they're saying are things that were always out of their control. Like. Like, angel didn't give up Connor. Angel tried to get Connor. Like, all of these things happen to them, and not because of anything that they did particularly. It's things that other people did. And it just kind of reminds me of when we were in season three and I said that what Wesley did was unforgivable. And I think that. I think of this scene, and that's why I feel that way, because it was Wesley's doing. Had Wesley never taken Connor, none of this would have happened. Like, the extent of the damage that caused all of this to happen. Like, it's just unbelievable. And it's just so. It's so sad that they're in this position that happened to them, and, like, they could have had a chance to have a great relationship. And I think it's. It's possible for them. It's just the circumstances are so bad. [01:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So in reading, angel reminded me that in the season three finale tomorrow, we had that exchange between Wesley and Lila where they talked about Connor and him coming back. And Lila says, okay, the impossible is here, but what does it mean? Is it the herald of a new age talking about Connor, better things to come, or the mass destruction of everything we hold dear? Which is so interesting because it ends up being kind of both of those things, referencing Jasmine the Beast. And then ultimately, what happens here? Wesley says, yes, every child born carries into the world the possibility of salvation or slaughter. Lila says, and one born to two vampires carries it in spades. So if the kid's the next Stalin, do you kill him? You can't. He's Angel's son. But on the other hand, if you just watch while he up and kills angel or somebody else, that cute girl from Texas say, wow, times like this, glad I don't have a conscience. Which is so poetic, because in this life, Connor was a weapon of mass destruction in a lot of ways. And by angel killing him and creating a new life for Connor, he's now given him the alternative path. Now he's now, hopefully, going to be the other side of things. And now, hopefully, Connor will have a chance at a new life. And the show's not over yet, you know, so there's still hope for him and everything, but I Just think that's incredibly interesting. The writers must have known what they were gonna do with Connor going into season four and everything. [01:14:55] Speaker B: And that's why I, like, I think that angel made the right decision ultimately, even though it's a little complicated. And I mean, we can talk about. [01:15:04] Speaker A: That when we get there. [01:15:05] Speaker B: But, yeah, I know you have like, like some different thoughts and I think it's very complicated, but I don't. Like, I would have done the same thing if I was in that position. [01:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:16] Speaker B: Which I would never be in because this is a fictional world and like, whatever. But, you know. [01:15:20] Speaker A: Right. We don't have those options. Right. But at the same time, like, I see what you're saying and I see what Angel's saying too, because, like, if that was my son or my daughter, I would take that. I would do it in a heartbeat. Like, give them the chance at a better life. Even if it's at the risk of my own morals and my own values and I sacrifice other. Other people. Like, it may not be the most moral thing I can do, but as a parent, like, I think I would do it. [01:15:43] Speaker B: But yeah, I think it's like the single best thing that angel has done for Connor as a parent. Post Connor being taken from him against his will and being raised in a hell dimension and everything that came after. Like, this was the best outcome and I feel like the only outcome. Like, I don't think that angel and Connor could have moved forward by building a new relationship. Relationship. Because I don't. Like, I just don't think that that would have ever been possible. And I think that Connor would have continued to be like, like you said, a weapon of mass destruction. Like, at the end of the day, he's a super powered human and, like, who knows how far he would have gone, you know? Like, I feel like, yes, in a way it's like a selfish decision on Angel's part. But at the same time, I feel like just in this scenario alone, he's sparing lives by making this decision. So, yeah, I don't know. But there is also, like, the question of he took other people's memories away. [01:16:38] Speaker A: Well, and I think there's. As a parent, you have this responsibility for this life. And I think angel also feels this responsibility of, like, man, like, I brought you into this world and this isn't really a world that a child should be brought into. Like, me as a parent. And like, the. The world, the circles that I run into. And so there's almost this, like, I'm sacrificing That's what angel does the very last scene. I'm sacrificing my dreams, my hope, desires for a family. And I'm giving it to you. And I'm letting. I'm cutting you off and giving you the opportunity to experience that apart from me. Because I think he's realized over the past two seasons that that future is not for him and that it is not fair for Connor to try to fit him into his world. He needs to give Connor the opportunity to have that life and that chance that he never did, and that that's the ultimate sacrifice. Like, in a lot of ways, there's a lot of parallels to I will remember you in his sacrifice and him being, like you said, like, the outside looking in. The parallels of, like, pangs where he goes to save Buffy and he's outside looking in at Buffy and then he has to leave. Like, it's just. It's very interesting. In the lobby, Lauren is singing and dancing. He's singing some things coming from west side Story, which is sung by Tony, the male lead, before he meets Maria. Tony's become disillusioned with gang warfare and looks forward to a better future, which is pretty much just what Lauren's thinking right here. Fred shows up, puts her gun down. Lauren's like, hey, I'm on board with this whole thing. Wesley comes in, he's like, this is a lot to take in. We're like, what, Wesley, what do you remember? The elevator dings, gun comes off, looking super intense. Even friends like. Fred's like, did they make you taller? Gun goes, I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too. Wesley says, as much as it pains me to admit, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here. Fred looks at Wesley, says, I can't believe it. Are you saying we should take the deal? Angel says, I already took it. And then Lila says, no, no. A silver platter when he's handed one. I'm impressed with a lot of you. Team angel all growed up. Angel whispers to Lila, is it taken care of? She says, cordelia is safe and sound. Probably getting a manicure and a blow dry as we speak. And then Fred's like, oh, you found Cordelia. Lla says, she's still in a coma, but, hey, it doesn't mean she can't look her best. And she'll receive the finest care. Medical and medic, physical. If there's a way to get her back, we'll find it. Angel says, good, I want to see him. Lila says, I'm sorry, angel, but that wasn't part of the deal. Angel says, value of compromise, right? Lila? I need to see him. LLA says, you're the boss. Hand hands angel the file and the amulet, says, there will be a limo waiting outside. It'll take you to see Connor. Angel says, thank you, walks out the door. The rest of the gang watches him, and then Fred goes, who's Connor? Oh, that's messy. That is messy. So here's the thing. I don't think. I think this show is low key. Both. I think there's. I think there's things to be said about the show both condemning and condoning what angel does for Connor. But I do think wiping the gang's memory is straight up condemned. I think that is a step too far. Yeah, I. Yeah. [01:19:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's definitely no better than what Jasmine was trying to do. Taking away their choice and erasing their memory of all this pain in exchange for forgetting these bad experiences that they've all had. But then, on the other hand, it's like he's giving everybody a clean slate at the same time. [01:20:08] Speaker A: Is it mercy for everyone? But that's also what Jasmine was trying to do too. [01:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah, but then choice is the biggest thing and it's like what these people want to forget everything that's happened. And. Yeah, it's definitely complicated and very messy. [01:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't think we can fully know the answer right now. I think we have to kind of see how it's all going to shake out to really know if it was the best decision or not. [01:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I think if we're to compare it to, like, I will remember you, for example, like in I will remember you, angel made a decision to turn back time, so the day never happened. And I think it's a lot different than here where, like, the events still happened. It's just people don't have memories of them. And I think that that's worse. [01:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Because there's whole formative parts of themselves. [01:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's so messy. [01:21:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very, very messy. And so I. There's. We don't really know all of Angel's reasoning and that's. That's the hard part. And hopefully we'll know more in season five. But, like, we don't know why he decided to erase everybody else's memories. Is it just to protect Connor? Is it a mercy for them? Is it at Lila's behest? Like, why did he have These things happen, which I think is a big part of the puzzle. So. Yeah, it's very interesting. [01:21:27] Speaker B: It would have been nice. I don't know if they ever. Do they ever talk about that next season? I don't. They do, remember? [01:21:34] Speaker A: They do a little bit. [01:21:34] Speaker B: They do. [01:21:35] Speaker A: They do a little bit. I don't think that we get all of our answers or our questions answered, but they do definitely. Like there is going to be a discussion. So. Yeah, I'm very excited to talk about that. [01:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think what will be a determining factor is like how does angel deal with the consequences of doing this? [01:21:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I think my biggest thing is it's more the frustration that he also took the deal without talking to everybody else as well. There's just like, there's multiple instances where I get a little uncomfortable with how angel is just making executive decisions for people and not like letting them make decisions and choices for themselves. And that's kind of a problem. So. [01:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. I can't. I can't defend that, honestly. Yeah. [01:22:21] Speaker A: And it's unfortunately kind of a concerning habit that's been cropping up for angel of making decisions for other people. So. Yeah. Anyways, back to the highway. We have angel in the limo driving through the mountains and we. It's now dark outside. The car pulls up outside a house. Angel in the dark, looking inside to a window. There's a family warmly lit dining room. They're having dinner. Inside sits Connors. The family celebrates him getting the top 10th percentile in school and being able to go to any college he wants. It's clear that he has a whole well established life. Like kind of think of Don. He has a girlfriend, a history with these people. He raises his glass and toasts to family. Then claim links glasses with his fake dad. Which is very similar to the toast that Wes made to Angel. And deep down in Angel's hallucination, just kind of an interesting mirroring there. Kind of like I was talking about earlier, Angel's given that dream to Connor, given that opportunity to him and sacrificed his own. And I think that it's just, it's. It's very similar. There's parallels to even kind of what Buffy did with dawn in the Gift, how she kind of gives dawn that. That life as well and sacrifices her own. There's just a lot of parallels there. [01:23:31] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so interesting how deep down opens on like angel hallucinating a dinner with his family. And this episode, like the finale of the season closes on Connor having got an Angel Looking in at it and, like, smiling. [01:23:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Kind of at peace with the fact that that's just not for me. That's not what I'm gonna have critically touched says, in a way, angel and up proving Connor's point that the only truth is death. Angel's living a lie with this fantasy in which he can be at peace over Connor. I really want to be there with angel smiling at the happy family dinner scene, which itself is a direct reference to his hallucinated dinner scene. And deep down, I think angel really believes that he's done some noble thing for Connor and that he's the one that has to suffer exclusion from this happy family. But in reality, is this moment not simply another hallucination? I think it is personally, and it betrayed raise Connor's most basic wish in life, to end the constant lies. So there's that take. I think there's also, like, an idea, something that's been talked a lot about in season four of this idea that angel really wanted to give Connor a glimpse of how amazing and good life could be, even at the end of season three. That's why he sends Connor to the beach with Fred and Gun. He wants Connor to see the beauty in life. And so it's possible that through this, Connor is going to be able to now see and experience life for the good that there is in it, and not just always see the pain and the bad and, you know, we'll see how all that plays out. But I think that that isn't a lie. Those things that Connor's experiencing, the love that he's going to feel from this family isn't going to be a lie. Like we talked over in becoming Buffy. The. The. The emotions and the experiences that are implanted in Buffy and Don's head are no longer fake because they've actually, actually experienced. [01:25:20] Speaker B: They're real. [01:25:21] Speaker A: They're real. [01:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:21] Speaker A: You know what I mean? So there is. There's precedence for this in a way, you know? [01:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. I don't agree with that. And I think we can talk about that, like, next season. [01:25:31] Speaker A: It's a big thing for next season. [01:25:32] Speaker B: I can't really talk about it right now, but, yeah, I don't agree that it's a lie. And I don't. I do agree to some extent that, like, angel is looking in and thinking, like, feeling sorry for himself a little bit. But at the same time, like, I do truly believe that the journey of angel this season has been him coming to terms with the fact that he needs to Let go of that delusion, of that, like, desire that fantasy to have that family. And I think, you know, he lost Cordelia. He lost Connor. He lost, like, the group is like, you know, was together and wasn't together. Like, it's been a very rocky season. And I think, think even with Angel's behavior, like, what I see here is a guy who has finally accepted his fate. And yes, it's a depressing one, but I think at the same time, like, it gives him peace to know that the person that he loves most in the world is finally getting a shot at the life that he could never give him. [01:26:36] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [01:26:37] Speaker B: And I think that's the biggest thing for Angel. Like, I think if everything goes wrong in his life and he knows that he did this, this one thing to, like, make Connor's life better, I think that is enough for angel ultimately to be like, you know what? Like, yeah, this is what I. This is, like, the right thing. This is it, you know? [01:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. This will be really interesting to talk about in season five. And it's a really interesting way to end it and go into the next one with this massive secret held over everybody because, you know, this is a Whedon show. There's no way that this is never going to not be brought up again. So I'm very excited for sure, to talk about that. There's. Yeah, there's just so much. So angel smiles, walks away. We hear the family laughing as he does, and then he gets in limo and goes straight to Buffy. So there's that. All right, Leia, we are done with season four. We actually. I mean, we obviously have our recap, but we only have one more season left. Isn't that crazy? [01:27:39] Speaker B: That is crazy. [01:27:40] Speaker A: That the Count. [01:27:41] Speaker B: I haven't cried during this recap. [01:27:43] Speaker A: You did. Yeah. You didn't realize you cared so much anymore. [01:27:47] Speaker B: No, I didn't. And I was like, why am I crying? [01:27:50] Speaker A: You're like, wow, I really do care, guys. Her cold heart has been thawed. She's ready for season five. [01:27:56] Speaker B: God, I couldn't control. I was like, why are tears running down my eyes right now? I'm getting choked up talking about the scene. Like, what the hell? Yeah. [01:28:05] Speaker A: And it's impactful and emotional and good. Yeah. Vincent Kiser and David Banas play it very well. So, yeah, we're. We're excited. We hope you guys are too send in your stuff for the recap. And yeah, tune in next week, too, because it's going to be really. I'm. I'm very excited to talk about it and then yeah, we will see you guys in season five. Crazy. So. All right guys, thanks so much for listening and we will see you guys next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast and you can email us at investigatingangelpodcast at gmail com.

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