S5. Ep1. Conviction

S5. Ep1. Conviction
Investigating Angel
S5. Ep1. Conviction

Feb 04 2025 | 01:38:09

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Episode 1 • February 04, 2025 • 01:38:09

Hosted By

Sarah Watson Lea Nasrallah

Show Notes

Angel and the gang's first legal case involves representing an evil client who is threatening to destroy Los Angeles. Join Sarah and Lea as they discuss the new characters introduced to the show, the gang settling into Wolfram and Hart, and some behind the scenes trivia about the season. 

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating angel for our last season premiere. Isn't that crazy? [00:00:43] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. [00:00:45] Speaker A: That is our last one from here on out. It's the countdown. It's our last, last first episode. Last second episode. And then we'll just go on from there. Yeah. Season five, guys. Episode one, conviction. Written directed by Joss Whedon Aired October 1, 2003 we hope you guys had a break. I'm assuming we did. Obviously, we are recording this before. As always, I always just feel weird. I know I probably should just be like, we had a great break too, but I just. I'm not good at lying. Guys. [00:01:13] Speaker B: I think it will be great, for sure. [00:01:15] Speaker A: I think all our breaks have been great, so I'm assuming that one will be. In a way, it kind of feels like we've had a break because I just came back from Thanksgiving, so we were off for that one. So we did have a break. So it was. That one was good. But, yeah. Also starting a new, fresh season. It's been a few weeks since we recorded season four, too. Season four as well. And so I kind of do feel like, I don't know, I feel reinvigorated. I'm, like, coming back. I'm, like, it's a new season. I'm excited. I feel like I got really excited after home to talk about season five. It's been several years since I've watched the season, and I've only seen it, you know, twice. So I'm excited to jump back into it, and I'm just very excited not to be in season four again. [00:01:56] Speaker B: I know. Me too. Like, we're still releasing season four right now as we record this episode, but. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Our minds are five. [00:02:05] Speaker B: I'm gone. Like, I'm not there anymore. Like, I'm in season five. I would like to leave season four behind. Goodbye. Like, see you never. Peace out. [00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah. In case you guys can't tell, based on, you know, our recaps and all that stuff, we're kind of done with season four, but we don't need to talk about that. We're in season four. [00:02:25] Speaker B: I'm done with the. I would like to put, like, season three and four behind me and, like, I'm excited for season five this season. I feel like I remember it so well because I think this is the first season I watched like, in full. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Because as it was airing season four. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I remember this season so much, and it's one of my favorite seasons, always has been. I think it will be this time around, just based on the first episode. Like, I was texting Sarah and I finished watching the episode, I was like, oh, my God, I want to watch the next one so badly. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Literally. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Like, I could just put the next one on and the next one and the next one, and I would be so happy. But we've gotta wait. That's fine. [00:03:09] Speaker A: But I think it's so crazy that on both Buffy and Angel, season five are both the stronger, like, two of the stronger episode or seasons. Not to say that there aren't great seasons beforehand, but it's crazy to me. I feel like by the time you start getting to season five, in most shows, the show is really kind of like running out of material, dwindling. Everyone's kind of tired. But just with this episode alone, you could tell there's a revitalization that has happened. And a lot of the cast seems very excited to be here. And everybody is very aware of who they are, like, who their characters are. And you just like all the quotes I have to read and everything, too. It seems like the crew and the writers and stuff were very excited as well. And that makes. Just. That alone makes me very excited, because I think season four, we could really tell that the cast and crew and the writers and everybody just seemed very over it, over what they were doing, over what they were writing. And that translates onto screen. There was a lack of energy, and that makes it hard for us who are having to walk through it every single episode and do such a deep dive. Also us struggling with the content material as well. But this just. This just made me so excited. I'm very, very excited. How many times can I say that word? [00:04:28] Speaker B: Very excited. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Excited. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Reinvigorated. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Revitalized. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Breath of fresh air. [00:04:35] Speaker B: And it's nice that it's like, right off the bat in the first episode, you really feel that. It's like, it doesn't feel like a different show because I feel like the characters are still the characters, but it feels new. And I like that. And I know that, you know, this season, I've come to learn, has mixed reviews with fans. I think a ton of fans love it, but there's also a lot of people that don't like it as much, and I can understand why, from both sides. But me personally, the fact that it feels almost like a brand new show is a good thing. Just because we just came off of, for me at least, really unenjoyable seasons as a whole. [00:05:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:21] Speaker B: So, like, I'm excited for something new and fresh. And I think that they, from memory, I think they do it really well. So I like that, like, right off the bat, that's the vibe that we're getting. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I know. Some people are like, hey, I don't really like season five because I enjoyed seasons three and four. And this feels like a massive difference. There's a lot of change up and we'll talk about it. But, like, you know, new set. Some of the characters that people loved aren't here anymore. You now have new characters that are brought back in that some people will discuss. Feel like take away from the characters that are here. There's a different. They're. They're starting to go back to more of the episodic story of the week, monster of the week episodes. And so I think a lot of people. It's just a lot of change. And generally people don't typically like change. But I really personally feel like this was a show that needed a new direction in a lot of ways. [00:06:15] Speaker B: 1,000%. [00:06:16] Speaker A: So. Yeah. All right, let's talk about it. Because, as always, there's a lot to talk about with the transition with seasons and stuff like that, but. Okay, so this is obviously the last season of the Buffy verse. That's always bittersweet for me. It's bizarre that Angels running without Buffy also running. [00:06:31] Speaker B: It is. Yeah. [00:06:32] Speaker A: It now airs on Wednesdays at 9. 00pm Eastern Time. And the episode title. Yeah, Eastern time. So that's 6pm, like, LA time. Which would have been my time. Yeah. So late. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Wow. That's insane. I would like me today, if I was my age right now, back then, I would not be watching a show at 9pm there's no way I'm getting ready for bed at 9pm that's so funny. [00:06:59] Speaker A: I. I would just because I'm a night owl. But absolutely, that's. That's late for young Leia to be staying up to watch angel. Because you said you watched it in its entirety, so you were up late. That's crazy. Pm, that's your time zone. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Wild. But I guess Angel's like a dark and, like, mysterious. [00:07:14] Speaker A: It has to be at night. Right. It can't be during the day. That just doesn't hit the same. [00:07:19] Speaker B: It's a vampire show. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. The episode title conviction. It's kind of a pun. So Team Angels trying to get someone off at trial while they're all Losing theirs at this in the same process, like, they're losing their conviction. There's also like the. The line at the very end where Angel's talking to one of the men, the black ops teams, and he's like, we have don't. I know. Literally. Hey, honestly, way cooler, though. They're. They're. Because they're evil. Because they, like, they're cooler. [00:07:50] Speaker B: They're like, fully embracing the evil. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah, black just looks cooler on television anyway. Like, true. Anyway, yeah, we'll talk about that more. And then obviously, for the first time since the show's. Well, this isn't obviously. But for the first time since the show's inception, which is actually crazy to me, Joss Whedon could now devote his full attention to the show because Buffy's done and Firefly is done and he doesn't have anything else going on. And I'm curious to see how that's going to play out for the rest of the season. From my previous knowledge, I think the show actually benefits from that. Say what you will about Joss, again, he horrible person, all that stuff, he really does bring something to the show that you feel is missing, at least I feel is missing for the seasons that he wasn't directly involved. And I'm glad he's able to at least devote more attention to it for the season. So just so you everyone knows, some of the switch around that's happened. So Jeffrey Bell is still the showrunner, but now that Buffy's over, David Fury has moved over as a co executive producer. And then later halfway through the season, it becomes executive producer because the show got canceled about halfway through the season. There was some switch up with how people were. Like some people were transitioned into different positions and stuff like that. I'm not sure exactly why, but as we get closer, maybe I'll look it up more. He. So David Fury ends up becoming executive producer. Drew Goddard is an executive story editor now. He was over on Buffy before Stephen Deny was promoted to producer and then later becomes promoted to supervising producer mid season. And then Ben Edlund is promoted to supervising producer and Elizabeth Craft and Sarah F. Are promoted to executive story editors. And then, of course, James Masters joins the regular cast of this episode, receiving second billing behind David Boreanas in the opening credits. And Charisma Carpenter and Vincent Kartheiser have now been removed. And it's going to be really interesting. Like, as we go forward, the biggest reason that there was change in the show, apart from like a storytelling aspect, is financial. And they needed to find a way to make the show, the budget be. I think it's like 2 million each episode, which is still quite a lot of money. But they needed to find a way to deal with the cuts and do so in a budget friendly way. And so they needed to invest more time in a set that was going to be able to. They could do more inside of it. Right. And they also needed to find a way to make it believable because there wasn't too much they could do with the hotel and all that other stuff. And I'll talk about that in a second. So Whedon explains. The decision to bring in Mercedes McNabb as Harmony, which is just amazing, was because she has been tirelessly funny and engaging and sexy and delightful. And it was very nice to bring her into the fold. She was long overdue to get into the mix, and we needed a blonde, let's face it. And I heartily agree, she is just the best. [00:10:55] Speaker B: I love Harmony, and I'm so excited that she joins, like, she's joined the cast. It, like, almost makes up for losing Lila at Wolverman Hart, but, like, not quite, but almost. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Imagine Lila and Harmony having to work together. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Lila would be so pissed off, she. Lila would eat her alive, crying in. [00:11:14] Speaker A: The girl's bathroom every single day. You just know she would. Oh, it's so funny. Actually. I would have, like, killed for that. [00:11:24] Speaker B: She's just so cute. Like, there's nobody that's cuter than Harmony. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Like, I'm sorry, having Harmony here, like, from the cold open, actually. But Harmony kind of solidifies, brings the show back around to being a little less serious. And the show doesn't take itself as seriously. I feel like season four, it was almost like we were being asked to take things seriously. That just felt very unserious. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:47] Speaker A: Again, I keep repeating words. I'm so sorry, but, like. But I'm like, it's a supernatural show, and we do talk about serious themes, but we also need some, like, levity or, like, yeah, we just need to laugh a little bit. And it was getting to the point where it was just, like, so heavy. And I still want those heavy themes, but I also want to be able to, like, have fun and poke fun at the fact that this is a vampire show. You know, Like, Harmony's. [00:12:09] Speaker B: That classic Buffy verse is like, that scene where they're talking about Cordelia, and Harmony's just, like, having the most emotional little monologue, and then she just switches gears and she's just like. [00:12:20] Speaker A: But anyway. Yes. And maybe. Maybe Leia, maybe part of that is Joss Whedon's voice. Joss does a very good job of being able to have the different genres all melded into one episode. And I, like, didn't know he had written this until after. And I was like, that makes so much sense. Because we got the seriousness of it. We got the melodrama, but we also got, like, the comedy and then, like, poking fun of at angel while also being like, yeah, Angel's a serious character, too, you know, So I don't know. And then Spike, too. That's also gonna add a lot to the mix. [00:12:52] Speaker B: I'm very excited for Spike. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Which is so funny, because if you guys listen to our season one, we're like, we shall never speak of him until he comes on the show. [00:13:04] Speaker B: Full disclaimer. I am not a fan of Spike on Buffy from, like, season five to season seven. Especially, like, the whole Spuffy thing. Like, I just cannot deal with that man on that show. But this season, yes, is my favorite, redeems him as a character for me, as, like, an individual character. Like, I enjoy him so much, and I think the way that I enjoy him is going to be maybe different from, like, somebody who's a huge Spike fan would enjoy him. But I think that he was a great addition to this season, and I think this is one of his best seasons. And him and David Boreanas together is, like, comedy gold. Honestly, the best thing on tv. Like, they're just so great together. But we'll talk about that in the next episode. Yeah, but, yeah, I'm just, like, really looking forward to it. And, like, I just. Yeah, I love the banter. [00:13:58] Speaker A: It. This, honestly, might save me, because I'm also talking about Spike and season seven of Buffy right now. And that's, like, one of my least favorite aspects of season seven is the fact that I feel like Spike's arc overshadows Buffy. And that really is. It kind of feels like a regression in a lot of ways. But here in season five, I feel like Spike. You know, there's things I won't get into it, but yeah, yeah, we'll get into it. But we talked about in our spoilers. [00:14:24] Speaker B: But, yeah, he's a. He's a very, like, welcome, fresh addition, I think, to the show. And I've always liked him in this season, so I'm excited to revisit all of that. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Totally. I agree. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:38] Speaker A: And then David Boreanas appears in this season as the only remaining original angel cast member, because this is the only season premiere not to Feature Cordelia Chase, which is crazy. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Really crazy. [00:14:52] Speaker A: And then I forgot about this. I knew about it, but then I didn't realize it started here, but Alexis Denisov had a case of Bell's palsy that caused the left side of his face to be paralyzed. Almost all the shots in this episode show Wesley from the right side or 3/4 right shot. And it's really crazy. So I again forgot about it. I didn't. I watched it, didn't notice it. Then I read that, went back, and it's so true. There are times where you can see he's blinking on the right, but he's not blinking on the left. And he keeps his body tilted so you don't really like, notice it a whole lot. And I just mind blown crazy, that is. [00:15:25] Speaker B: I had a friend who that happened to and it was like, just terrifying. That's so scary. Yeah. It just happens out of nowhere. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:34] Speaker A: And then it just one day goes away sometimes. Yeah, it's weird. Okay. So we briefly talked about this at the end of season four, and I kind of hinted at it, like, at the beginning of the episode, but, like, the show is always up in the air pretty much every season as to whether or not it's going to be renewed. But season four, like, at the very end, it was more so than ever before. And so the staff actually needed to convince the executives that it should be renewed, mainly because of budget. So several people put together a clip package as kind of an advertisement so the network could see why the show was worth saving. Tim my near says, the first thing I did was to sit down with one of our editors, and we put together a clip package that ran about four and a half minutes. The idea was to show the executives all of the cool stuff we've done over the past four years. We didn't assume for a moment that the network actually watched the show. So we wanted to prove to them that it was cool. David Fury talks about needing to shake things up in order to convince them. And Tim my near continues saying, Joss had the idea of them taking over Wolfram and Harp before that meeting. But we showed them this clip reel. We took in reviews. There was a lot of great press about angel at that point. So Joss, David, Jeff Bell, and myself pitched to them where we wanted to take the show in the fifth season. We decided that the season finale would actually serve as a pilot of sorts for what would happen the following year. We had to do that at the end of each year, laying out where we wanted the characters and arcs to go. But this was more drastic. This approach answered any concerns on the network's part that the show was too archy, too soapy. The idea with them taking over Wolfram and Hart was that viewers could just tune in and understand it. And that was one of the big things that they were starting to struggle with with season four. When we talk and there's a couple of like quot I think where they were talking about how the last section of season four happens in just two weeks. And I know we talked about that too. And it got to the point where they were saying the first like third of their episode was either like, of like 42. It basically felt like a 42 minute recap of everything that had happened before. They had to do so much like this is where we're at. This is what's happening. [00:17:35] Speaker B: Because it was so convoluted. It was, everything was just so convoluted. Like, and there were people to this day still don't know what, what happened. [00:17:43] Speaker A: It's so true, so true. But they were talking about how like, even though like previously on was getting longer and longer, it was getting harder for them to organically have the characters recap what was happening and they couldn't do it succinctly. And it was being, it was becoming really hard for new viewers to just jump into the show because it just felt so daunting. And so the, of course the network's looking at numbers, they're looking at viewers and all that stuff. And so they're going, hang on, we want that maybe goes back to a week by week episodic thing where we can have new viewers jump in a little bit more easily. And so Kelly Manor says, you know, he's the producer and the financial guy for the show. He says that Joss called him and said that they want to cut the budget if we're going to go another season. He said, can we do it for 2 million an episode? Which is plenty when I think back. I said we can't make the show. We've been making for 2 million an episode, but we can make a show. And I actually thought season five was one of the better seasons. The big challenge, of course, was in tearing down another permanent set and then with reduced budget to have another million dollar set go up on a budget that's been severely cut as it is. And then Josh says, the thing is, the debate about whether or not the show would come back was a money thing. The fact is the junior executives at the network really cared about the show. But when you get up to the world of President Jamie Kellner, it's all about numbers. I was told they would fight for the show and fight for a lead that a lead in that makes sense. For them to take their biggest honking hit at the time, which was Smallville, and put it in front of angel was a vote of confidence, and it showed that where it counts among the creative execs, it wasn't about money. It was about programming. And I really appreciated that. So Joss is like, all right. So the very top was like, we're looking at numbers. But the people below really loved the show, and so they strategically placed it. You have Smallville, which was huge. So having reduced the budget, this kind of affects the stories that the show can tell, which means reduced sets, which means less serialization, more standalone storytelling. The executives seem to prefer this because it means new viewers turning in, tuning in, all that stuff. And apparently, like, the old viewers, though, were really kind of angry about this because they were like, we've been following for years. We get it. We. We like the episodes that are very archy because it's more fun for us. Like, we understand all the lore. And so that it was kind of. It was a little hard for those people. But Joss was very reassuring of his viewers, which was, hey, this won't remain like this forever. We have big ideas for season six. We're actually planning on only staying at Wolfram and Hart for one season. We have something else that we're gonna do. This is just to get the network kind of on board and kind of, like a shot in the arm for the show so we can move in a new direction. Obviously, the show got canceled, so that was never able to come, like, to come to pass. So. But it's interesting to know that they at least had a plan moving forward. And there's just, like, several quotes where, again, they're just talking about how, like, season four. Like, this is Stephen tonight. He says, season four was, like, one big episode where you ended at the beginning of the next episode because we would end on a cliffhanger, which is everything we said. He says, so you'd end that at the beginning of the next episode and spend the next part of Act 1 recapping what happened on the last episode to catch everybody up. That created its own difficulties. Everything was so interconnected that it was very difficult to make a move without thinking about the last 12 episodes or something. It was also really impossible to do standalone episodes because we were so Archie. And in year five, we went into More of a standalone field, which created a new set of problems more in our brains than anywhere else. It was a different way of breaking a story, which was very challenging at first, which is so interesting, because I think that's why season four started to feel kind of stale, because the writers felt that they were hemmed in so much they couldn't come up with new stuff because they had already written all this other stuff that was counting on them. So it was like they were in a circle constantly just trying to regurgitate new ideas, but they couldn't because there was too much false fallout. So I. I really do wonder if a lot of that. It being more Archy is also what impacted season four as well. So it's interesting. [00:21:47] Speaker B: I think so. I definitely think so. Because if you actually think about it, like, had they tried to fit in, like, a Monster of the Week episode, it would have felt so out of place. Like, what would they have done? Yeah, you know, like, with the amount of episodes that we have, some parts of it felt really slow, some parts of it felt really rushed. But, like, yeah, it's just. I can't even imagine, like, being constrained by, like, that giant of a story that's, like, so convoluted. But I also can see how it would be difficult to do, like, a Monster of the Week when you're still trying to do something, like, greater. Right, right. But I always find that that type of TV is, like, more enjoyable for me as a viewer, to be honest, because the Buffyverse is, like, great at having the big, like, interconnectedness of everything, but it also, like, the best Buffyverse stuff is, like, Monster of the Week, in my opinion. [00:22:42] Speaker A: It's kind of true. [00:22:43] Speaker B: It just is. Like, it's a show you go back to and you watch because you love the individual episodes. And I feel like in season four, it was really hard to love the individual episodes because it just. It was never just this episode. It was always just like, oh, but then you have to go into the next episode to find out more. And I'm like, oh, my God. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, there's nothing fun happening. [00:23:05] Speaker A: I love the Archie episodes, and I love, like, building into something, but it. It is hard because you have to keep escalating. If you're going to do that. You can't just have a resolve, and then, okay, we're going to do something new. And I could see how that would burn you out creatively. It would also burn out the viewers because we're sitting here like, okay, you keep having to, like, up the stakes. And at some point you can't. Like, you're done. Like I think about Supernatural, at a certain point you're like, how many times can you die? You know, like you're. It becomes really hard to tell stories in a new and fresh way. And if you do something more serialized or not serialized, like episodic, then you're able to be like, now we're going to introduce a new concept and a new idea and we can take that to its conclusion and then move on to something else. So. [00:23:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:51] Speaker A: It's very interesting. So Josh Sundays, during season four, of which I'm very proud, at one point we were like, are we making 24? The events of the episode seem to happen in a two week period. It played as this one dramatic arc. Here's the quote. We all came out saying we'd had to shake up the paradigm dime. We had the characters we needed, but there wasn't enough for them. So you think somewhere in the middle of the season I said, say what if they actually run Wolfram and Heart? The exciting thing about it is not only the question of moral compromise, but the actual relatable question of, I worked for Greenpeace, but now I work for Shell. So now we start getting into kind of the premise, the idea of what they want to go into for season five. So David Fury says the logical thing is good trying to defeat evil. But Joss would always say, no, there has to be balance. And it's much easier to balance evil when you're run evil when you're the guys who run it. You can keep the balance going, you know, you won't ever destroy it. Good will never defeat evil, but there has to be balance. Without the balance, evil wins or there's chaos. So it's kind of the idea of Wolfram Heart. They don't want the end to come quite yet. So if they put angel in charge, he has to keep things running. That's basically what Eve says. And if he keeps things running, effectively, Wolfram and Hart is winning at the end of the day. And then Ben Edlin says, by the time you get to the end of season four of this crazy ass show, what I really liked was that Wolf Renhart was immense in their thinking. They were playing such a bizarre game. I understood that it was like angel understood that they legitimately were playing a cosmic sort of gambit. Or maybe good left unmolested, trying to do its best job to make things better would achieve more evil than us working 247 against them. Just give them the reins. I Felt the idea at the heart of it, Wolfman Hart's philosophy was that they really felt the road to hell might be paved with good intentions. So they should give this over to people with good intentions and get it done faster. Even if it's a trap, it might be worth it. I think they really think we're going to make it worse. And I. Or, like, it's the idea of, like, we're going to make it worse. I think we'll make it better. We're willing to take that bet. So, like, Angel Investigations is going, oh, hey, Wolf Renhardt thinks we're going to make things worse. So we think we're going to make it better. We're going to take that bet. And, like, we're actually going to, like, do that. Meanwhile, are they playing into Wolfram and Heart? Heart's hands? [00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Wolfram and Heart just wants them to do. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [00:26:10] Speaker B: They just want them to do. To act. [00:26:13] Speaker A: They're basically just killing time. Kill the. Kill time until the apocalypse comes. And that's. Yeah, that's fascinating. [00:26:20] Speaker B: Which is so. So corporate. It's like the epitome of working in, like, a corporate job. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Very true. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Kill time until the apocalypse comes and you just, like, die. [00:26:36] Speaker A: That is. Yeah. Unfortunately, it's like, is it five o'clock yet? Cool. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Literally watching this episode, I was, like, getting triggered so many times because I work, like, a corporate job. I'm like, oh, my God, no, I can't watch this. This is just. I just. I finished work today at 4. I can't go back. [00:26:55] Speaker A: You're Harmony. [00:26:57] Speaker B: I wish I was Harmony. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Yeah, you do. You'd be like, here, angel, here's your blood. Would you like it directly from the source? Course, you know, she's a vampire. [00:27:07] Speaker B: I'd offer my wrist on, like, a silver platter here. [00:27:10] Speaker A: You totally would. Angel be like, hey, we need to fire this girl because I can't get anything done. She's, like, here all the time. All right. So then Jeffrey Bell says, so our big arc was, what the hell are we doing here? Why do they have us here? We don't feel corrupted, but have we been corrupted? Have we been compromised beyond what we think? That was something that thematically was in a lot of the episodes. It allowed us to tell stories with a little more scale in terms of the kinds of clients we deal with. We thought that ultimately we'd service both sides. So very, very interesting, very fascinating. And then just this episode in particular, it begins basically the same way that the series premiere City of began. Angel looking out over the city. A girl in a dark alley. A blonde superhero. [00:28:00] Speaker B: Music. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. We have Angel's theme all over this season. It kind of disappeared for a while. [00:28:06] Speaker B: I love it. But it's also like. Like, it's like a. It's like a spoof of that. And it's so funny. [00:28:11] Speaker A: There are moments. Yeah, they're definitely trying to, like, kind of poke fun at it, which I'm like, you know what? I'll. I'll allow it. I'm kind of ready for that. I need. I need the show to, like, not take itself so seriously. Honestly. [00:28:20] Speaker B: For real. [00:28:22] Speaker A: So Josh says, angel in a dark alley, saving a damsel in distress from a vampire. We did this deliberately because we really wanted to call back what the essence of the show was. Angel's the kind of guy who goes into a dark alley, saves the woman, doesn't say what his name is, and takes off. We're going to work for Wolfram and Hart, the evil company we fought all this time, and it simply means we can't be what we were. So all of this heroism is falling by the wayside, and he's a little bit pathetic. And. Yeah, you get that. Yep. [00:28:49] Speaker B: It's. It's the same, but it's different. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Totally. And I'm okay with that. Like, let's do something differently. So. For sure. Yeah. I enjoyed this episode. I was telling Leia beforehand. Almost every review I read, they were like, I don't like this episode. It's too much exposition. And don't think this is the worst premiere. Like. Like, we're. [00:29:08] Speaker B: I was just telling Sarah, like, we're in a brand new setting. These characters are going to be doing, like, the exposition in this episode is needed. Like, we need to set the stage. We need to know what we're getting into. And I want to know what everyone's going to be like. Like, what the deal is. So I. I enjoy the exposition in this episode. I like that we. Because then hopefully we don't have to talk about it continuously over and over and over again. Get hit over the head with it like we have in previous seasons. Like, later on. Like, get it out of the way in this episode. Set the stage and let's, like, hit the ground running. Like, let's go. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think it's any more exposition than we've had the previous season, honestly. Like, we had to hear Cordelia, like, rant at Connor, like, every single episode. I'm just, like, having flashbacks. [00:29:58] Speaker B: War flashbacks, literally, right now. [00:30:02] Speaker A: Tension headache right here. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Glasses off. Because she doesn't want to see her here. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Literally. Yeah. You can tell stress once they start doing this. [00:30:10] Speaker B: We have, like, ptsd. Like, literally just like, oh, my God. [00:30:16] Speaker A: All right, moving on. Thematically, this season is how to do good when everyone and everything is evil. How do you fight evil when you're a part of it? Is the gang losing their conviction, very carefully, playing it as mercy? Or is it just that things are murky and a lot more confusing now and it's easy to compromise? Are they being the fraud slowly boiling in the pot? [00:30:38] Speaker B: Perhaps. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Perhaps. We will find out. We will discuss. So, all right, Ready to talk about the episode? [00:30:44] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. [00:30:46] Speaker A: All right. [00:30:47] Speaker B: 30 minutes. [00:30:48] Speaker A: I know, right? Every single single season premiere. This one wasn't as juicy with the backstory as, like, the season four stuff, but, you know, it's okay, right? I'm. I'm okay with less drama, personally. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Please, God. [00:31:00] Speaker A: So we start off again in an alley. We're back to our roots. The blonde girl in the alley. Vampire comes. She screams. Angel races from the rooftops and swings down all Tarzan style, his black coat billowing like Batman. I was like, oh, Batman, we haven't seen you in a while. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker A: He says, it doesn't sound like the lady's interested. Maybe you're coming off as too needy. They fight. [00:31:21] Speaker B: There's fomo. [00:31:22] Speaker A: He's punning. His hair is, like, different. He's kind of looking little super villain esque. [00:31:27] Speaker B: I like it. I like it. [00:31:30] Speaker A: But you know what? If you like it, we'll allow it. I'll live with it. [00:31:33] Speaker B: I like the whole new look. Look, he looks like a new man, and I love it. [00:31:38] Speaker A: We're good. [00:31:39] Speaker B: We were talking about that. [00:31:40] Speaker A: They're tight. I was like, yes. Will we maybe see shirtless Angel? [00:31:44] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Maybe see tank top Angel? [00:31:47] Speaker B: Like, perhaps. Perhaps. Mayhaps we will. [00:31:50] Speaker A: One can hope. Man, I. I. Okay, I will say this. I've never understood why the girl does. Just doesn't take off while Angel's fighting. Like, she always just stands there and just like. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Because it's Angel. [00:32:02] Speaker A: Okay, I knew you were gonna say that. But let's, like, think I'm gonna stand. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Here, talk to him. Leia's like, she's me. [00:32:09] Speaker A: She's like, no, I need to know your name. I do, actually. It's not. Not important. I need to know where to find you. [00:32:15] Speaker B: I would be out of there so fast. I'd be like, I'm leaving. [00:32:19] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, thank you. Okay. Who's to say he's not going to try and take advantage of me, too, you know? [00:32:23] Speaker B: That's true. Choose the bear. [00:32:25] Speaker A: Saying. Yeah, choose the bear. Exactly. [00:32:27] Speaker B: Choose the bear. [00:32:28] Speaker A: So then angel pulls out a steak, and he likes. [00:32:32] Speaker B: This was a steak kill, by the way. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And that steak actually looked pretty cool, too. Also, his. His vamp face. I just want to take a moment and talk about how amazing the vamp face is. And think back to season one of Buffy. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Where Darla, like, shrinks by six inches versus now. Like, it's almost seamless. It's amazing. [00:32:52] Speaker B: And even the vampire poof is, like, super cool. I don't know if it's different, but. [00:32:56] Speaker A: I'm sure it is. [00:32:57] Speaker B: It just looked, like, very cool when it happened. [00:32:59] Speaker A: It did. We haven't had a good vampire poof in so long, dude. So long. [00:33:05] Speaker B: I was, like, hand on hand combat with, like, a vampire. Like, just. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Just saving a girl in an alley. Like, saving a victim. Like, helping the help right in the heart. Come on. It just has been so long. Can you guys tell? We're like, we're back. [00:33:20] Speaker B: We're back, baby. [00:33:22] Speaker A: This is what I love. This is what I wanted, you know? [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Anyway. All right, then. Then the girl's like, oh, my gosh. I just don't understand. Angel's like, look, don't try. Just get yourself home, Stay out of dark alleys. You'll be all right. Practically puts his finger on her lips. Is like, shh, it's okay. You don't need to know. And then he, like, smiles and, like, walks away. [00:33:46] Speaker B: That was, like. That was a little creepy. [00:33:48] Speaker A: That was a little creepy. That was David Boreanas right there. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that was David. [00:33:51] Speaker A: That was Joss telling David Boreanas play this, like, overly serious. Because we're supposed to be making fun of angel right now. This is supposed to be a little, like, silly. And that was, like, him not taking it seriously. And then the girl's like, but who are you? And he's like, it doesn't matter. All of a sudden, like, cars screech in. Groups of armed men dressed completely in black gather around. They're like, Angel. Angel. Angel. Mr. Angel. Angel. Angel. He's like, oh, my gosh. Who is this? They're like, angels. Secure Angels. Unarmed hostile. Contain sweep AR and confirm. The guy, like, pulls his ski mask off. He's like, angel, sir. And then, like, a lawyer walks out and is like, hey. He tells his assistant, go give her, like, all the papers and everything. Which is hilarious, because those of you who've watched Bones, this is hodgins TJ Thine. [00:34:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So he ends up him and David Borean has worked together for, like, what, 15 years or something like that, which is so funny. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Crazy. [00:34:44] Speaker A: He's a lawyer, and he was like, hey, angel really would prefer it if you didn't leave a rescue scenario until we had a chance to control the scene. Of course. That's your decision, sir. So then, like, you know, the assistant goes to give the girl, like, some forms to sign. And then they're like, oh, yeah. Oh, that part made me die. Like, even angel was like, hang on. Wait. Wait a minute. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Don't sign that. [00:35:05] Speaker A: Don't sign that. Yeah. She's like, here's some papers to sign away. Your immortal soul. The girl's just, like, signing mindlessly. So funny. So the girl's, like, overwhelmed. Angel finds out they have a tracker on his lapel. And then, like, the contract's being read to her. Hodgins is like, hey, let's get a picture of the two of you. Oh, and by the way, the vampire crazy works for one of your clients. But it's the first week. It's fine. No one's gonna squawk. Angel's sitting here going, this is messy. This is not what I thought this was going to be. And so then she's like, wait, you run a law firm? Angel's like, no. Yeah, well, lately. And then, you know, she signs off her immortal soul. And then she's, like, so disgusted. She's like, you did this for publicity? And he's like, no, I help. And he's like, the helpless. And then it just. He realizes how pathetic and silly he sounds. And then the scene ends with Hodgins being like, can I get you coffee? Mocha decaf? And angel being like, this is insane. And I was like, ooh, this is juicy. Angel, the introvert back, just wants to read his books, is now being swarmed and tracked and came. I can't even help people in peace, and I'm living for it. [00:36:16] Speaker B: I love it. It's so good. This cold open was amazing. [00:36:19] Speaker A: What a way to, like, get people invested. I was like, joss is back, baby. He is back, and he's got nothing else to pay attention to. So then we could get a quick blip over to an elementary school. We see little Matt talking with his friends about comic books. They talk about X Men the Punisher in particular, which is. I think the Punisher is very, very specific because it's this idea. Punisher doesn't really often give people mercy. And that's something like that. I think angel talks about the very end when he's talking about, hey, I'm giving you mercy. Which will be interesting to kind of delve into a little bit this season. So then Wolfram and Heart, we see package in the Wolfern Heart mail cart addressed to angel, which is, as we come to find out, the amulet holding Spike. Fred shows up in the elevator with her box full of stuff. And this is all one long shot that continues and does not cut until we first see Eve. And it is, I think, like three minutes long. Production designer Stuart Blatt is. It's my favorite. Says Whedon asked him to build the new Wolfram and Heart large enough so he could walk all around with a Steadicam and never have to cut. Then they did exactly that. And so. So this second scene after the credits is three and a half minute shot, introducing all the main characters in their new setting. According to Whedon, it took 27 takes. That is a long day, 27 takes to get this one long shot. He says, inevitably, one actor is always going to have trouble with their lines, and it's usually going to be the one who's at the end of the take, because that's just my fate. I was like, well, dang, way to, like, throw Eve under the bus. [00:37:55] Speaker B: I mean, that's a lot of actors that you have to shoot. Like, didn't he do a continuous take for, like, the body when Sarah Michelle Geller finds. Finds Buffy, finds her mom? Like, that was one. But that's like, one actor. Imagine having to do that with, like, all of them, plus the extras, plus everyone else. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Yes. I would say a shot that is comparable to this one over on Buffy is actually Anne. In Anne, there's one long shot where you're back at the school and you're seeing all the Scoobies minus Buffy. It's supposed to parallel Buffy being by herself in the hotel or in her apartment. And you see it's one long shot of everybody walking in, like, Xander and Cordelia kind. Kind of meeting in the. Not meeting. And then you have Oz and Willow talking. And then you have the teachers trying to round everybody up. And you. You get. You get to see the new, like, reading space stuff. Yes, but that was. That was also very long. And they had all those extras they were having to coordinate on top of all of that. It's kind of a Whedon special. And Whedon has talked about it how because he both wrote and directs, he has the ability to be able to choose, and it allows him to actually save on money and time by doing one long sh. But it's not something that most anybody else can do. He can because he knows. Because he's. He wrote it. He knows how long it's going to take him to do everything else. [00:39:12] Speaker B: And didn't he also talk about, like, the Buffy and Angel scenes and End of Days and chosen how that was one continuous shot? [00:39:21] Speaker A: It might be. I don't know. I haven't gotten there yet, so it's possible. But I. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you're right. We watched the. [00:39:27] Speaker B: On the. [00:39:28] Speaker A: I watched the director commentary. Yeah. He talked about how he did it because he knew that Sarah and Dave were both professional and also their chemistry. And. [00:39:35] Speaker B: And because, like, he only had David Boreanas for, like, two hours, so they had to get the whole scene. They couldn't, like, set the lighting and, like, set everything up for different, like, takes and stuff. So. Yeah, that's interesting. [00:39:48] Speaker A: And that's kind of a weed in special. He does that a lot. I think the. The biggest one that I remember him talking about was Innocence, I believe when he had angel coming back in. And he, like. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Uses the light or the. [00:40:02] Speaker B: That seed. [00:40:02] Speaker A: The match to, like, light his cigars. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Not okay. I see. I see the one he goes to Drew. And yes. [00:40:09] Speaker A: When he walks in, and then he does, like, a whole monologue walking around and stuff. But yeah. Anyway, Whedon does a lot of those, and I personally eat those up because I think it makes for a much more interesting scene. You immediately, like, look away. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:22] Speaker A: There's literally happening. You feel like the actors are more on because they're like, oh, hey, if we mess up, everybody else that's writing. [00:40:29] Speaker B: Everyone'S on a time. Like, you have to hit your time. You have to hit your mark. [00:40:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker A: And this was just brilliantly done. I went back and watched about three or four times because I was always finding new things, new aspects. [00:40:41] Speaker B: I did that a lot this episode. I was, like, rewinding scenes, and I'm like, wait. But also, that could be why. Because I was also, like, on my phone at certain points. [00:40:52] Speaker A: Not you outing yourself. Yeah, I can't do that with this season. Leia, you actually have to pay attention. There's a lot going on. [00:40:58] Speaker B: That's why I was like, I'm going to rewind because I need to know. Know. And also, like, yeah, this is interesting. [00:41:04] Speaker A: So then, okay, Wes greets Fred, and then they talk about how, like, Fred doesn't know where her lab is, how big everything is, how she doesn't fully understand what's going on. We get a bit of, like, this is where we are now dump. And also an establishing of Wes continuing to pine after Fred. You have Knox coming in. It's very apparent that Wes is. Still has feelings for Fred, but she's not there at this point. So Wesley says, well, I'm stuck back at why on earth are we here? And I'm so curious what you think, Leia. I'm curious. Does this have anything to do with the memory wipe? Is it an implication that angel made the decision for them and then in, like, wiping their memory, they don't quite remember why they decided to be there? I don't know. [00:41:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think Home kind of did a good job of showing us why each of the characters would want to join. But I think the one exception was Wesley. Right? Like, I think with Wesley, he was always the one. Like, even before the memory wipe or even, like, even if you remove the memory wipe. Like, he was the one where it was, like, he was skeptical from the beginning, and he. His only reason for going in there was to, like, save Lila. But then the memory got wiped. But, like, the skepticism was still there. I feel like. Yeah, so it makes sense that, like, to me, at least, that Wesley would be the one to be like, hey, what are we doing? But then Fred is, like, super into it. And then gun. Like, obviously he goes off and does his own thing. Lauren is thriving. So, yeah, I don't. I don't know. [00:42:37] Speaker A: I did notice. I. I got the sense that Alexis Denisov was trying to play Wesley as not. Not quite the same Wesley from season four. Like, there was a little bit more of a. Like, a. Not as confident, not as certain, maybe a little bit more awkward and bumbling. Not quite to the level of, like, season one. But I get the sense that they're trying to figure out who these characters are with the memory wiping, without all the things that they. That they had that made them who they are without completely regressing the characters. So I'm curious how they'll play the. That in the future. So then Fred's like, you know, what were crusaders against evil? Now the law firm that represents most of the evil in the world has given us LA branch, just, you know, completely filling everything in. And then Wesley asks several times if he can, like, take things for her, and she's like, no, no, it's okay. But then Knox comes down and immediately interrupts Wesley and is talking to Fred and is all like, oh, hey, let me just take that for you and like, just grabs it. And Wesley, of course, notices this. And then they take off. Fred calls him Noxy. The camera, like, pans around still in the long running shot to get Wesley's reaction. And then we have Gun talking off screen and then throwing a basketball to Wes from off camera and then stepping into the shot. And this is so interesting because the side that Alexis Denisov had to catch the basketball is the side that has had, like, was paralyzed, like, his face. And I wondered if, like, he had trouble seeing the bass. I don't know if it affects your vision or anything, but I was thinking about how he's, like, holding the coffee cup. He's paralyzed on one side of his face, and he has to catch this basketball on his side that is struggling. And he's like, Wesley was kind of a focal point for a lot of this long running shot. [00:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it kind of works out, like. Yeah, it works out because I didn't even notice. Caught off guard. Yeah. I don't know. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah, Seriously, I just was like, oh, my goodness, this is. Yeah, this is insane. So then they talk about which office they're going to take. Guns looking a lot more like season one Gun in a lot of ways, looking more like Street Gun. And that's, of course, to contrast the end of this, the episode. And then Gun leads Wes over to the office that he wants. They talk about it, you know, know how amazing it is, the view and everything. And then Guns like, are you having second thoughts? Wesley's like, you are not. Gun says, man, do I look like I belong here? You got the mystical creds. At least I just hit stuff. I mean, even if this works, then we can turn this place around, use it to do some good. It's going to be a long, long while before any of us gets anywhere near comfortable here. Ooh. And then we pan out, and then we're backing out, and we can see that we're next to Wesley's office. And then we see the mail carrier guy right next to the office. And then the focus moves to Lauren, who's walking through the lobby talking on a cell, accompanied by a guy holding a three ring binder. Lauren's talking to a client. He's also simultaneously picking out carpets, presumably for his office. And then as Lauren walks by, the elevator doors open to reveal angel standing inside. Gun calls to him from the lobby. It's just a lot of, like, moving around. And then Gun's like, are you lost? Angel's like, on a lot of levels. And then they talk about what happened the night before. And he's like, hey, did you guys hear what happened last night? And Gun's like, you got lucky. And then Angel's like, no, they put a tracer on me. I was working the town helping the helpless, which is the thing I like to do. All of a sudden, the entire firm shows up in the alley. And Wesley's like, we'll make sure it doesn't happen again. Angel's like, well, we're going to turn this place inside out. If they want to see how I handle running Wolfram and Heart, they're going to find out everything must go. And he, like, pushes over the double doors into his office, and he, like, stops and stares at his desk. And he goes, starting with, there's a. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Little rat sitting on his desk. A little. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Starting with that. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Seriously. [00:46:30] Speaker A: And then we like, oh, my gosh. And I know. I know this is, like, one of the most hated characters. I just feel very ambivalent about this person. Yeah, so far. [00:46:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:39] Speaker A: I feel very ambivalent about Eve. We'll see how. How it pans out. But we see this young woman, and it's very obvious what she's supposed to be. She's supposed to, I think, in a lot of ways, be the physical representation of the allure of Wolfram and Heart. The temptation, almost the seduction actress. The way that they have her, like, sitting, the music, the pose. It's almost like a siren. The angle with the emphasis on her legs. [00:47:01] Speaker B: Even her, like, dialogue with angel is very, like, charged. [00:47:05] Speaker A: Yes, yes. They're, like, flirting, bantering back and forth. Angels, like, you like to make an entrance. And she's like, you always open both doors when you enter. [00:47:13] Speaker B: She, like, laughs. He's like, oh, he's so funny. He's like a boom, roasted. [00:47:19] Speaker A: He's like, dang it, I can't get rid of her now. Gotta keep her around. And then she's like, I don't need to make an entrance. I need to make an impression. I'm gonna be your liaison to the firm. I'll help you find your way. My name is Eve, and just so we get the whole irony thing out of the way, she picks up a shiny red apple from the desk and throws it to Angel. And he's like, who do you answer to? She says, the senior partners. And she's like, by the way, you can't use me to get to them. I answer to them. I don't lunch with them. And then Wesley again. There was all these, like, subtle, like. Like, almost like season one misogynistic like, he was kind of condescending to Fred, which she notes. And then he says, still a pretty powerful position for a young woman. Like, there was moments where it's like, hints of, like, misogynistic Wesley peeking through. And I don't know if that was intentional or just Joss being like, well, this is what a man would say, you know? [00:48:07] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely that. [00:48:09] Speaker A: It's just hard to tell sometimes. [00:48:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:12] Speaker A: So then she's like, I'm going to tell you how this works. She's like, you're in charge, Angel. The Los Angeles offices is. But it's a multi dimensional corporation. She says, I'm stressing that because that's what we are. We're a business. We have a bottom line. She's like, now you could take your new client list and start hacking away from the top down. A lot of our clients are demons, and almost all of them are evil. Angel's like, almost? And she says, things are always more complicated than they seem. She says, you can shut this place down, but then, well, then you wouldn't have it anymore. If the place closes down, the connections dry up. Evil goes next door. And that's the catch, she says, is I'm explaining the catch so you don't have to stand around wondering what it is. In order to keep this business running, you have to keep this business running. And that means keeping your clients, most of them anyway, happy. Ooh. That's going to result in a lot of compromise, seared consciousness or seared consciences. Or you're going to have to figure a workaround or just not do it. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Sounds like it's going to be exhausting for the gang. [00:49:11] Speaker A: I'm already exhausted, like, going through the episode and being like this is, is this worth it? You know? [00:49:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:19] Speaker A: So then Gun's like, that means we have to let them get away with stuff. And Eve's like, well, they already were getting away with it. While you were all sitting around your hotel waiting for the phone to jangle. I was like, that is an excellent line. Because she's not wrong. Like, she's casting a lot of gray into this. Like, hey, could you possibly do more good even though you're also kind of doing some bad mixed in with it? She's like, hey, you can stop the worst of it. Maybe find some new solutions to some old problems. She's like, isn't this exciting? It's a crazy time of fun. The most powerful evil around has given a pivotal position over to its sworn enemies. You're not scared, are you? And angel just, like, maintains eye contact and then just takes a big bite of the apple. [00:49:59] Speaker B: That was the most sexual bite I've ever seen in my life. [00:50:02] Speaker A: My God. The thirst is back, ladies and gentlemen. [00:50:05] Speaker B: That was insane for him to do. [00:50:08] Speaker A: He was just like. [00:50:10] Speaker B: And that looks like a juicy apple, too. [00:50:12] Speaker A: It looked really good. Yeah. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Now I want it a moist apple. [00:50:16] Speaker A: Get us back on track here, guys. This whole idea of, like, temptation and, like, Eve and, like, the apple and Wolfram and heart and stuff like that is so fascinating, especially because of the religious element that we've always been talking about in the show. And All Things Philosophical says the apple grants the knowledge of right and wrong. Because in the Garden of Eden, it was the idea of if you. If you bite into the fruit now, you're going to have the knowledge. But with that knowledge comes responsibility, and there's a loss of innocence. And that's what we mean by the whole, like, conviction thing. You may. You may lose some conviction in the process, because things are going to be a lot murkier that gray. So All Things Philosophical says the ability to choose the knowledge of right and wrong. Angel's decision is not dissimilar to his dethroning of Jasmine and Peace out. It establishes the possibility of free will and demands the strength of character from his team that they can both acknowledge Eve evil and fight it. It's simple to dismiss Angel's takeover of Wolfram and Hart as the wrong one. But Angel's Apple makes the point that he goes in with his eyes open. And choice is the biggest thing in the. In the Buffy verse, the idea. It's almost. Sometimes this idea of if there is no ability to choose, that's the biggest sin. And so angel having all of the knowledge, it's almost. It almost moralizes what he's doing or, like, makes it seem not as bad in a lot of ways, because now he can go in and make the right choice, or at least make a choice. So then Eve leaves and is like, hey, the client files are all there. You might want to start going through them later that evening in Angel's office. Angel, Lauren, Fred, Wesley, and Gun, they're sitting around and they just seem completely exhausted as they're trying to go through all these folders. And Lauren mentions that a couple of US Presidents were corrupt. Angel's like, how are we even supposed to start making things right? Gun reads off a particularly heinous crime, which ends up being the one, of course, that we go through later on. And then he goes, I can't even remember which pile is which, which one's the bad pile and which one's the good pile? And angel goes, I'll get my secretary to go through it in the morning. Wait, do I even have a secretary? Wesley's like, I imagine they'll find you someone who can stomach the idea of working for the side of the righteous. And then Gun says, my impression is a lot of these guys are just opportunistic. They'll go with the flow. And then Fred's like, guys, we're gonna have to check the entire staff and make sure we don't have any die hard evildoers plotting against us. And Wesley's like, and here I was worrying about the clients. Oh, I'm tired already. [00:52:47] Speaker B: They're in over their heads. It's. Yeah, it's exhausting. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, right? It's a lot easier working in an environment where things are clear and you're able to kind of, like, keep yourself removed from things. It's human nature to go the simpler route. And I think that in a lot of ways, that's why you often see, like, our world being so polarized, is because people are kind of afraid to step into each other's worlds because it's uncomfortable. Because we don't often want to think about the fact that the. The people that we hate, the ideas that are, like, the ideas that these people represent sometimes are not bad people. And it's just a different point of view, and it's uncomfortable to have our viewpoints challenged. And that's exactly what's happening right now. So everyone leaves to go rest while angel stays up to work for a bit longer. The next morning in Guns office, kind of like an interesting parallel to, like, angel, like, Gun walks in, Eve's there. Angel walks in, Eve's there. He comes in, Eve's sitting on the couch, and she's kind of more in the shadows versus with Angel. She was, like, sitting right in the middle, middle of lights. She asks if he's ready for the next step. And Guns like, if you knew me, you wouldn't ask that. And Eve says, I can see why the senior partners chose you. Handsome. A business card. And says, have fun. You'll feel like a new man. And he just kind of like, watches her. And then Wesley's like, well, what did that mean? And Gun says, taylor, guess I'm not dressed for success. There's the suit thing again. Yeah, this idea of, like, trying on a new role, something that he feels like will fit him better. [00:54:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I just. I'm curious to Hear your thoughts on, like, whether this direction that they're taking Gun in is, like, true to care. The character that we've come to know in the last four seasons. [00:54:37] Speaker A: I think it worked really well. Like, I. The way I talked about it in season four was Gun's disenfranchised with the way that the mission has been executed. Feels like he's not being affected, so he's willing to try something new. But this, in this season, it doesn't feel as much that. Mostly because we haven't really gotten to see disenfranchised Gun because it's a new season. It feels more like Gun is kind. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Of like they're trying to find something for Gun to do. [00:55:05] Speaker A: Yes. And he's enamored with how shiny everything is, and he kind of wants to do that. And it's maybe less about doing things for the right reasons and more of, like, hey, I want to find a place where I fit in. [00:55:16] Speaker B: Right? [00:55:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:17] Speaker B: But is that true to who he is? Like, that's the thing, but maybe that's the point. Maybe that is the. Maybe this place is already corrupting them and that's a part of it for Gun. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. We'll find out. So then we go to Angel's office. He's looking through his files, comes across the package addressed to him. Puts it on the side. Is like, all right, I'm going to ask for coffee. Call calls, uses his desk phone, asks for the coffee. [00:55:46] Speaker B: I love this. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Unfortunately, he presses the wrong button. It's like ritual sacrifices. It's like, press one for it to, like, you know, sacrifice a goat or something. Yeah, right. He's like, wrong one. Like, just to emphasize that, like, hey, I am out of my depth here. He presses another button, and a woman's voice answers. And she's like, oh, I'm your new assistant. He's like, I'd like a coffee or some blood. And she's like, right away. So then he. Wes ends up calling on the phone, asking him, says, hey, I'm gonna stop in. There's a situation. And then off camera, as they're talking, the door opens. The unknown secretary places a cup on Angel's desk. We see blonde hair. We don't see who it is. Angel hangs up, takes a sip, and then locks eyes, and it's harmony. And he's like, explain why I shouldn't kill you. [00:56:32] Speaker B: His heart fell out of his butt. He was just like, what is going on right now? [00:56:36] Speaker A: The fact that Wesley hired her and didn't tell angel and was like, Hehehe. This will be funny. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Maybe Wesley has failure that tried to kill us last two seasons ago. Sacrifices to a vampire pyramid scheme called. [00:56:53] Speaker A: He's like, ought to be good for you. And she's, you know, morally gray. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Yeah, she is. Give Harmony, like, a good enough reason to do something and be somewhere and she will do it it like so well. That's what I love about Harmony. [00:57:08] Speaker A: I don't know that she wants to do evil because she is evil. I think she just wants to, like. [00:57:12] Speaker B: She just can swindle Harmony. If you can, like, literally give her a great reason that, like, appeals to what she wants, then she'll do it. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Best job ever for you. [00:57:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:57:25] Speaker A: And then Angel's like, why? And she's like, well, I'm a single undead gal trying to make it in the big city exactly where. And they're evil here. They don't judge. She's like, they got necro tempered glass. And she, like, does a little dance. He's like, no burning up. Great medical plan. And who needs dental more than us? [00:57:42] Speaker B: It's true. [00:57:44] Speaker A: This is surreal. And she's like, now, before you go threatening to fire me, he's like, I threatened to kill you. She's like, wait, let's not quibble before anything. Just think, I'm strong, I'm quick, I'm incredibly sycophantic. If that means what that guy said. And I type like a superhero. I don't even know. I didn't even look it up. Let's look it up. What is synco? [00:58:02] Speaker B: I was expecting you to have this looked up. That's why I didn't look it up. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding me? Behaving or done in an obscuous way in order to gain advantage. Oh, no. [00:58:14] Speaker B: What does that mean? [00:58:16] Speaker A: It means a person that praises people in authority in a way that is not sincere, usually in order to get somebody. Yeah. Which, I mean, that's kind of Harmony a little bit. [00:58:26] Speaker B: That's. That's true. [00:58:27] Speaker A: I'm incredibly sycophantic. Basically means I'll kiss your ass and do whatever you want me to do as long as you let me work here. And that's. Yeah. And then that means what? That guy said, that Wesley said it to her. Wesley's the guy that said it to her. I just realized. Hilarious. That does sound like Wesley. She's like. And I type like a superhero. She's like, hey, we keep the same hours. Creature of the night. And she, like, holds up her fist, like, you know, fist bump Him. [00:58:52] Speaker B: It's true. And then she's like, really great points all around. [00:58:55] Speaker A: Very valid points. [00:58:56] Speaker B: I'd hire her. [00:58:57] Speaker A: And then she's like, it's pig's blood. It tastes really great. She's like, I'm off the human blood. And he's like, it tastes really good. She's like, yeah, that. It's otter. And then Wes enters, and he's like, hey, Harmony. Then we's like, oh, yeah, I picked her out myself. He's like, I thought a familiar face would be exactly what you need. Angel's like, wow, you turned evil a lot faster than I thought. And then we get our first mention of Cordelia, which is so bizarre to me because we're like, what, 10 minutes into the episode and I would imagine everyone's like, wait, where's Cordelia? What's going on? Like, did I say Harmony? [00:59:30] Speaker B: Well, what I might say. Cordelia? [00:59:33] Speaker A: Did I say Cordelia? [00:59:34] Speaker B: No, no, no. You said Cordelia. Yeah. [00:59:37] Speaker A: What were you gonna say? [00:59:38] Speaker B: I was just gonna say, I think, with, like. Do you mean, like, the. The gang is. Would be talking more about Cordelia? [00:59:44] Speaker A: No, like, the show. The fact that, like, I would imagine if people were not aware of, like, whether or not Charisma Carpenter was on the show and stuff like that, it's a bit bizarre. This is the first time that she's come up, right? [00:59:55] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is a bit bizarre. [00:59:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So then, you know, Harmony, they find out that Cordelia is still in the coma. We have that moment where Harmony's like, oh, my gosh, she was my best friend. She, like, starts cheering up, and then she's like, well, I think you should. Was giving, like, the emperor's new groove with Easma. She's like, well, can't get any deader. And then just, like, moves right on. And I was like, oh, well, I. [01:00:20] Speaker B: I love how, like, the music. The music was just, like, so somber and sad. And it was like, such a, like, heartfelt monologue. [01:00:28] Speaker A: It's a touching moment. [01:00:29] Speaker B: She just, like. She's like, anyway, back to me, this is like, season one Cordelia. [01:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it really, really was. This makes me miss season one dynamic that we had that. We really appreciated that, like, right. Cordelia hall helped us not take angel so seriously. And it really helped angel not take himself as seriously. [01:00:56] Speaker B: And then Cordelia started to take herself too seriously. [01:00:59] Speaker A: The show got way too serious. And then it was bogged down, and we were all serious, and we were like, wait. I watched this show because it was fun and because angel was shirtless. And I'm getting neither of those things, so why am I here? [01:01:11] Speaker B: Seriously? [01:01:14] Speaker A: Oh, What? [01:01:17] Speaker B: My Siri just went. Huh? [01:01:20] Speaker A: Even series like, yes, Shirtless Angel. She knows what's up. Siri is syncophantic as well. Guys, we just learned a new word. [01:01:30] Speaker B: Yes. I don't even know how to message. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Like, hey, this is the incorrect way of saying that. You're actually not pronouncing it. Well, no, it is syncophantic. Well done. Okay. All right. [01:01:40] Speaker B: Syncofantic. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Anyway. Anyways, so Wesley's like, hey, Harmony, I think you should go get the men from my office. She leaves, and then Wes is like, hey, there's a way to help Cordelia through the coma. We will find it. He hands a folder to angel, tells him about the client gun had talked about the night before. Corbin Fries, he says, the lowest piece of pawn scum I've met in, oh, hours. He's about to get 20 years for kidnapping, pimping. And Angel's like, yeah, I saw the file. Fun fact. Apparently Corbin Fries is the name of Joss Whedon's nephew. And he named, like, this really awful guy. Hopefully they have a good relationship. This isn't just, you know. He's probably, like, angry. [01:02:19] Speaker B: Aren't I so funny. [01:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. He's like, corbin, you should watch my latest episode. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Wink. [01:02:26] Speaker A: Wink's like, what the heck, man? Uncle Joss, who I only see once. [01:02:31] Speaker B: Is that really what you think I. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Ever do to you? He's like, this is for me having to buy you those uber expensive Christmas presents. Or that one time you kicked me in the shins or, I don't know, Josh Holds or something petty like that. I don't know. [01:02:43] Speaker B: Kick him in the shins. [01:02:45] Speaker A: You know, like, they always do. Like that little, like, the little bratty kid that, like, comes and, like, kicks the guy in the shins and then runs away, you know? [01:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sure. Like cartoons. [01:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Get with it. Come on, Leia. I'm just kidding. [01:02:59] Speaker B: So you're saying that Joss Whedon's real life is, like, a cartoon? [01:03:03] Speaker A: That's how I choose to view him as this ridiculously cartoonish super villain. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Who walks around twirling a mustache and going, oh, yes, yes, more. [01:03:13] Speaker B: Okay, I'm. I'm down with that. Okay, thank you. [01:03:16] Speaker A: Thank you. All right, back to the episode. Wesley's like, yeah, well, personally, I think he deserves to be eaten by weasels. But he's hinting we'd best help him. Threatening, actually. Fries enters the room with his men. Is a Complete dick. He blames everyone, saying that he brings a lot of money to the firm. He shouldn't even be on trial, even though he is guilty. Guilty. He wants angel to get him off. And Angel's like, it's so strange, my lack of incentive. Fry's like, okay, well, you know what? I. You're my lawyers, and you're going to do every last thing to keep me out of jail or you're going to regret it. And then his lawyer is like, well, we can't dance around this one. We're not in a position to have anyone killed. And angel and Wesley are like, oh, wait a minute, that's not an option. And then they're like, oh, yeah, not that we would. And the jury's tamper proof. Literally. He says, I think One of the DA's shamans has conjured a mystical shield around them, which. It's so interesting beyond the other side now, where you're like, good, they should be like, they should be tamper proof. They should be okay. But then you find out that he has the bomb, and you're like, crap, this is getting uber messy. So Wesley's like, this case has to be one of the merits of the case. And Fries is like, you know, you guys need to do what I say or I'm gonna kill everybody in California. Except the only people left left standing will be dead. And Harmony's like, oh, that's a relief. And Angel's like, are you kidding me? I have to deal with my corrupt secretary and now corrupt, evil bad guys who want to kill California and everybody in it. So then in the conference room later on, Lauren. Well, I guess it's a different conference. Conference room. Lauren has a bunch of employees in a list. He's having each of them sing for him while he reads whether they are evil or not. Not in the lab, Fred is unpacking while talking to Knox. He asks about what Lauren is doing, reassures her that he will sing for him and he's not actually evil. Fred reiterates how uncomfortable she is with being in charge. And then the phone rings with angel asking her and Lauren to join them in the office. In Angel's office, he updates Lauren and Fred. He's struggling. And we find out he very, very nearly hit Fries. And Wes is like, we need to find out about this bomb and disable it. They talk about what the bomb could be, whether it's like, chemical warfare, whether it's virus, mystical, and. And Wesley delegates, says, fred, you need to go through the lab record, see if wolverman Hart deals in viruses because maybe it's possible that we built this actual thing. Like, it's just getting messier and messier. He's like, lauren, you need to go in the courtroom, monitor the case, let us know how it's going. Harmony comes in, says that she paged gun, but he's not answering it. But that she got Spanky's address and hands it to Angel. And Lauren's like, spanky, Spanky. Angel's like, freelance mystic. He showed up in Fry's file a few times. I'm gonna go do some Lego work. And then Fred's like, wait, can you get there by the sewer? And Angel's like, not this time. Beautiful car garage. [01:06:08] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:06:09] Speaker A: And he's like, oh, God, they're so cute. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Oh, my God, they're. [01:06:11] Speaker A: He runs from one to the next. [01:06:14] Speaker B: He was hopping. This is the only time that I am okay with angel hopping around. This is the only scenario. He's hop away. [01:06:26] Speaker A: Which. Which car will I take? [01:06:28] Speaker B: He, like, went to one car and then he went to the next car. And then he was just like, petty. [01:06:33] Speaker A: They're so shiny. Yeah. He's like, all right, I'm gonna do this. So he's about to get into one of the cars when the black ops guy shows up. Hauser is his name. And he's like, you want us to bring in the guy? And he's just like, nah, I'll take care of it. [01:06:45] Speaker B: Hop from to go. Follow him around. Like. [01:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah, they're. They're basically the what angel was in season one where he would just appear in car garages as someone was trying to get into their car. Literally Angels. Worst, like, like his own. [01:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so true. Season one, his own habits biting him in the ass. [01:07:04] Speaker A: Exactly. This is everything that angel was all the, like showing up and then disappearing and. Yeah, exactly. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Appearing and disappearing. [01:07:13] Speaker A: That's trying to get into their car. This is like Lila and him in season one or season two. Somewhere at Spanky's apartment, there's like a 15 year old guy. 50. 50 something year old guy. Not 50. Whatever. You know what I mean? Not 15. [01:07:28] Speaker B: What are you saying, Sarah? [01:07:29] Speaker A: Sarah doesn't know. Sarah's tired. Sarah's having a stroke. There is a something year old guy. I think I said 15, but I don't know. [01:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah, you did. I was like, What? [01:07:41] Speaker A: He's not 15. That would be really, really creepy. That would change the whole dynamic of this. This scene. Anyway, he lets angel in. As soon as angel says, hey, I'm From Wolfram and Hart. Starts making him a drink. Angel's walking around the apartment, stops and stares at something on the wall in front of him that we can't see. And it's like, spanky. So tell me, why do they call you Spanky? And we, like, swerve around and we see the angel staring at a wall full of paddles and whips. Oh. So anyway, they talk a little bit. Spanky goes, look, buddy, I'm gonna be up front with you. I got nothing against people doing their thing. It's a wide and wonderful world. But spank men, it's not a judgment. Men have fine, firm asses. You've been to the website. You know how much I work on mine. Angel's like, this is too much information. And the guy's like, hey, I thought you were here about a mystical job. And Angel's like, I am. We find out that Spanky built a container that has, like, it's mystical vessel that fries. Could put anything into it. And Spanky's like, it's a bomb, a curse, a golden retriever. I don't know. Anything could go in. He goes, I don't know what he wanted it for. The vessel just holds it until the magic word dissolves the vessel. And then he puts down his drink. Angel's like, okay, well, then where'd you place the vessel? Suddenly, Spanky lunges around behind angel, puts his forearm in front of Angel's neck and squeezes in. Is all. Like, you know what I'm doing right now? I'm applying pressure to your windpipe. You'll pass out. And then I'll let Mr. Fries decide if he wants you to wake up again. And angel, you know, not breathing, goes, do you know what I'm doing right now? Not using my windpipe. So, yeah, he grabs him, twists around, and then Spanky's like a vampire. Angel's like, with a capital V. And there's something else you should know about me. [01:09:30] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:09:31] Speaker A: Spanky forward, grabs the paddle from the wall, swings it, as Spanky sends him flying across the room and goes, I have no problem spanking men. [01:09:40] Speaker B: And then he slaps the paddle on his hand like, you want some more? [01:09:45] Speaker A: Like, come off, boy. Gonna break off a switch. How do you. How do you like it now? It was just like, I will say this season, if I remember correctly, has a yacht. [01:09:58] Speaker B: And then they call Angel a fairy later on, a little fairy. And he's like, I'm not little. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Oh, my word. Oh, my word. [01:10:09] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:10:10] Speaker A: So unserious. [01:10:12] Speaker B: It's so unserious, serious. [01:10:13] Speaker A: So then back in the medical office, guns, like, sitting patiently in the world's worst decorated doctor's office waiting room. Finally, a man comes out, and he's like, are you nervous? And we find out guns been waiting for, like, five freaking hours. I'm sorry, I would not be there that long. I'd be gone. Long gone. And guns like, okay, no, I'm definitely past nervous. As they walk into this weird office full of electronic and mechanical gadgets that definitely don't look up to code. And then the doctor is like, all right, so I heard you. You, like, spoke with the conduit himself. Gun's like, that's between me and the big cat. Let's do this thing. And the doctor's like, remove your shirt. And I'm like, this is sus. And very sketchy. It honestly reminded me of the guy rack in season six. Like, his, like, little den, the waiting room, like, kind of crusty and a little, like, sketchy and very sketchy. So then in Fred's office, Fred and Knox are sitting on the floor, kind of going through papers that are strewn all over, over. Knox finds some info from someone who used to work in the lab, who worked with Fries on illegal pesticides. And he's like, I think you are right. These guys specialize in quick fire disease scenarios, saran gases, and viruses. There's a link called the Black Tomorrow that specializes in these things. And Fred's instantly suspicious and is like, you guys built this? And Knox is like, oh, my gosh, we've actually contained more viruses than we've created. Like, chill, woman. Angel calls, and Fred updates him, and she asks if angel found out where Fries put the bomb. And angel is just, like, clearly distraught, says he knows. And then we cut to the elementary school, and we zoom in on little Matthew Dark, and we hear his heartbeat, and we zoom in on his chest, and we realize, crap, he put the bomb inside of the boy, inside of his own son. Which immediately, of course, this is going to trigger angel because of everything that happened with Connor. So messy. [01:12:05] Speaker B: But it's also, like, the thing that gives him conviction. [01:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:09] Speaker B: To beat the bad guys back. Like, without this, he would have still just kind of been floundering. [01:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's something kind of, like, poetic, too, about the idea that, like, your heart, your. Your compassion, your empathy, the things you care about are the things that ultimately are going to give you conviction because you're. You still have a soul, you still care about people. And so, like, it's Kind of this poetic thing of, like, he put it inside his son's heart, his chest. But that guy who is human, who has a soul, doesn't seem to care at all about. [01:12:41] Speaker B: And the entire reason that angel is doing this is for Connor. [01:12:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:45] Speaker B: This is like, a reminder. Yeah, A reminder of, like, why he's doing this. [01:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [01:12:51] Speaker B: And I think the conversation with Eve in, like, the next scene, I think that also emphasizes that. Exactly. [01:12:58] Speaker A: Yep. So in the doctor's office, we see, you know, gun just going through a lot, but he wants to keep going. He tells the doctor to keep going until they're finished. And he's like, just shut up and do it. Doctor's just completely creepy. Then we go to an empty. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Weird. [01:13:15] Speaker A: It's very weird. Empty. Wolfram and Heart. Fred and Wesley are walking through the lobby talking. Talking about how they just don't have much of anything left. Fred is just burnout. She says, we've isolated a few strains which Fries may have access to and they don't have an antidote. And then Wesley's like, I'm not doing much better. He's like, if we kill Fries, that could trigger things too. And then Fred asks if angel will be all right. And Wesley's like, he does seem to be taking it rather personally. And then they go their separate ways because, again, they don't know about Connor. They don't know about any of that. And angel can't talk to anybody because nobody else remembers except for Eve, who is his enemy. Me. Messier and messier. Then, you know, Eve comes in and. And Angel's just like his son. He took a lethal virus and he stuck it inside his son. Eve's like, hits you where it lives, doesn't it? And then she's like, well, I know everything. And then she's like, you lost your son. Well, you gave him up. And angel says to save him. And she says, which you did. He's happy and well adjusted now that he has no memory of you. And the rest of the world, including your best friends, never even heard of Connor. Her. He says, that's not a name I want passing through your lips. And then she's like, and what would you like passing through my lips? [01:14:24] Speaker B: Oh, my girl. [01:14:27] Speaker A: No, I just. Something about this actress. Like, if Lila had said it, it would have just. Oh, tension. So good. [01:14:35] Speaker B: But this girl, I can't know her. Like, I feel like you have to have, like, yeah. Electric chemistry with another actor to be able to pull off lines like that. And I feel like they do have. [01:14:48] Speaker A: Have like, there's something there. [01:14:50] Speaker B: For sure, there's something there, but it's not like. It's not, like, electric. Like, you don't feel like when he says the comment next where he's like, you're not cute. When I'm angry, I'm just like, what, did you think she was cute before? [01:15:02] Speaker A: Like, yeah, I think you're supposed to think that he finds her attractive, but it's hard. There's. There's a presence that Stephanie Romanoff had that just was very, like, compelling. Also. Fun fact. So this girl. I forget her name, she's married to the actor who played. Played Tucker in the Prom and who also plays. Who does the voice of Aladdin. They're married in real life, which is just interesting. Yeah. Full circle for everything. But, yeah, she's. She's a great actress. I just feel like this part needed someone with more of a presence, like Stephanie Romanoff, where you take them seriously because of their presence. It's just hard to take her seriously. For me, at least. But she just comes off as annoying. She's, like, a little beautiful. [01:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think that's the point. I think that's. That's what we're supposed to feel toward her because that's what the characters feel toward her. [01:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, that's true. [01:15:54] Speaker B: I think she's doing her job, ultimately. [01:15:58] Speaker A: So then she's like, I'm curious how you're gonna play it. Angel says, well, isolate the boy if it comes to that, Stop it from spreading. Which is kind of like what he did with his actual son. Eve says, here's the news. If every case hits you this hard, you're not gonna last a week. And angel says, now, I don't want you coming into my office again unless I ask for you. I don't want to hear another word right now, unless you decide to start helping out. She says, how do you know I'm not. So then in the science department, a very tired Knox is looking through a microscope. Fred walks up, and she's just had enough. She's like, are you running the tests? You're not doing enough. She yells at everybody, but in a way that feels very much in charge. Like this entire time, she's been saying, I don't want to be in charge. I don't want to. And this was Fred's moment where she actually. Actually, like, steps up to the plate. [01:16:43] Speaker B: Fred's conviction moment. [01:16:45] Speaker A: You're right. Oh, look at that, Leia. Absolutely right, though. Totally. And then she says, you're all tired. I Know, I just want you to understand that in a few hours, the virus is going to start spreading in the city. That'll kill every person in it. And when blood starts streaming out of our noses, eye sockets and fingernails, I'll have the intense satisfaction of knowing that I'm dying with the only people in the world that actually deserve it. It. Now, focus, people. Work the damn problem and knocks us out. [01:17:11] Speaker B: I would have ran through the bathroom and cried. [01:17:13] Speaker A: I know, right? Yeah. Harmony's already in the bathroom. You go join her back there. [01:17:18] Speaker B: Washroom. May I please have a washroom pass, please? Yeah. Literally. [01:17:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Teacher, can I go to the bathroom? So funny. Yeah, but, you know, I was proud of her. She's right light, like. Yeah, do it. Get it done. So then, back in the courtroom full of onlookers, Fry's trials coming to a close. Lauren is incognito in the audience, wearing gloves, hat, sunglasses. I love it whenever he does this. Yeah, it's even more obvious whenever he wears everything. And he, like, pulls out his phone and says, angel, listen, I'm gonna go ahead and recommend we get that boy into isolation pronto. Angel's like, how long do we have? He's like, the defense is drawing it out, but the judge is making very sport of them. And then Angel's like, do you think he's going to say the word? Back to the black ops van, which is gathered in surveillance. They're listening to angel and Lauren's phone conversation, and they hear about the school, and they're like, hang on. We're going to show the new boss how a threat is contained. And they take off, and they speed straight to the school, and they're planning on terminating the kid. And they're like, no survivors, no witnesses. Is. So then back into Angel's office. He's, like, rifling through papers. Wesley comes in and is like, hey. The lab techs are on track for an antidote, but it could take days. And then he's like, same with the mystical container. He's like, I. Maybe we can somehow get them to suspend the trial. Like, basically, we need more time. Angel's like, it's not going to happen. I got to get to the school. Harmony keeps trying to interject in this, and Angel's like, not now, Harmony. Not now. Until finally she's like, hey, dude, dude, like, the black ops guys already left. [01:18:56] Speaker B: Listen to. [01:18:57] Speaker A: And then he tells. I know, right? He tells Wesley to go to the courthouse for plan C. He says he'll call when he has the boy, and then Harmony's like, they left 10 minutes ago. Wes is like, you're never gonna beat them on the streets. And Harmony's like, hang on, I have something else to say. [01:19:10] Speaker B: And helicopter, baby. [01:19:14] Speaker A: Helicopter. Helicopter. I'm in such a weird mood today. You don't think the Tick tock sound. Helicopter. Helicopter. No, never mind. I was like, oh, that's OG. Tick tock. That was, like, a long time. That's like 20. 20. [01:19:29] Speaker B: Almost five years ago. How was that? [01:19:32] Speaker A: Really? Almost. Oh, my gosh. Okay. That does not speak of it. Anyway, at the school, we see the black ops van speeding towards it. We see the kids, including Matthew Fries, watching attentively as the teacher lectures in the courthouse. Wesley walks in and sits besides Lauren, and he's like, how's it going? Fries turns around, just, like, glares at him. He's like, never mind. And Lauren's like, what's the plan? You got a plan? And Wesley, like, opens his coat, shows Lauren that he's got a gun in there. And Lauren's like, oh, and here I thought we were done. [01:20:05] Speaker B: What is he planning to do with the gun? [01:20:07] Speaker A: Shoot Fries? [01:20:09] Speaker B: Wouldn't that also trigger the thing? [01:20:11] Speaker A: Like, maybe Wesley. Maybe he's gonna shoot the judge? [01:20:15] Speaker B: My God. [01:20:16] Speaker A: I don't know. Like. Well, I don't know what he was planning on doing. [01:20:19] Speaker B: Bring a gun. It's fine. Guns can solve all problems. [01:20:22] Speaker A: Apparently, it's America, so it's Wesley, too. So seriously, Wesley's, like, gonna hold everybody hostage. He's like. [01:20:32] Speaker B: Even though Wesley's, like, the only non American person on this show, I'm like, what are you doing, sir? [01:20:39] Speaker A: Well, I mean, Lauren is also not American. [01:20:42] Speaker B: Well, technically, he's not even from this dimension. [01:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah, technically, I guess Lauren would be an immigrant. [01:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. [01:20:50] Speaker A: But that would. Yeah, that wouldn't work anyway. Okay, so then back. [01:20:54] Speaker B: Wait, that makes me think, how the hell is Wesley still in this country? How has he not gotten deported? He just lives there now. [01:21:01] Speaker A: Yeah, because wasn't, like, the Watchers Council threatening to get Giles deported and everything. Yeah, and the Watchers Council has fired him, so he's not really. Well, the Watchers Council doesn't exist anymore. [01:21:12] Speaker B: Damn Wesley's. [01:21:14] Speaker A: So many questions. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Illegally. [01:21:15] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [01:21:17] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:21:17] Speaker A: Maybe don't pull out that gun. [01:21:19] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:21:20] Speaker A: Okay. Working for Wolverman Hart now. He'll be fine. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Yes. [01:21:23] Speaker A: Okay. It's just another of, you know, him going corrupt and evil. [01:21:27] Speaker B: They're sponsoring his work visa. [01:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So then at the school, the black van full of agents pulls up to the school. Agents pour out. They gather in the hall. It's at the classroom. Put their gas. Gas masks on. They kick open the door, toss a gas canister in, pan around the room. And Angel's just sitting there like. So it turns out, guys, with this new deal and all, I own a helicopter. [01:21:53] Speaker B: Yes. [01:21:54] Speaker A: And he's like, do I even have to start with how fired you are? Hauser, like, chuckles and takes off his mask. Is like, that's not how it works. And Angel's like, oh, right, tradition. Why don't you show me how that's done? And Hauser's like, thank you, sir. Take him out. They shoot. Angel fights vamps out, takes them out one by one. There's some cool stunts. The men seem prepared. They have, like, holy water and, like, special holy water containers and everything. [01:22:17] Speaker B: Angel obviously takes them all out because he's a badass. [01:22:20] Speaker A: And you know what? I'm eating it up because it's been so flipping long since we've had a good fight scene. And it was so fun to watch. Yep. So then back at the courthouse, Wesley and Lauren are nervous. The judge is like, all right, if there's no more objections, I'll hear the final summation. Someone in a fancy suit and expensive shoes walks through the lobby carrying an alligator hide briefcase. As he enters the room, we pan up and see that it's got in a pinstripe suit, looking so good. Silk tie and all. [01:22:47] Speaker B: So good. [01:22:48] Speaker A: And he's like. Your Honor, the defense requests one more minute to confer. Honest J. August Richards has the charisma. [01:22:55] Speaker B: He has so much charisma. [01:22:57] Speaker A: And he literally do anything since we've seen him be able to, like, just, like, you know, girl, what do you mean? [01:23:03] Speaker B: He's, like, the only one who's been giving charisma, like, in small doses, but. [01:23:08] Speaker A: Like, I'm talking, like, fully unleash it. [01:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, like, just confident. [01:23:12] Speaker A: Like, it just is oozing out of him. Like, this is giving me. And I was just thinking about the contrast back to season one, where Angel's like, hey, I need your help. And he has to go into Wolfram and Heart and, like, go in there and create havoc and released a demon inside of the lobby. And he's talking all about, like, sweet vengeance and, like, basically preaching to them. This was giving me that. That. But just, like, in a completely. Obviously, now he's working for Wolfram and Hart. Like, it's so it's really kind of turn tables. Yeah, totally. The judge, of course. Poor thing. Is just like, another defense Lawyer. What a joy. [01:23:45] Speaker B: So much. [01:23:47] Speaker A: I mean, yeah. And then gun like takes over, says we move for a mistrial. He asked that the judge recuses herself from the trial. He says, no judge shall be appointed to try any case concerning a business colleague or employee. He reveals that the judge's tax wreck records like. And then shows that she has stock in Oriental Bay Exports, which is owned by Lauros Incorporated, which is in turn owned by a consortium that includes the defendant, Corbin Fries. [01:24:11] Speaker B: Damn. [01:24:12] Speaker A: And yeah, and the way that, like this, it's kind of. It's so meta. The way that this trial even kind of highlights the dilemma that the team is having with Wolfram and Hart. Like, at some point, whether inadvertently or. Or intentionally, everyone gets their hands dirty and is involved in something like corruption. Corruption is everywhere. That even the person that's trying to put Fries away. [01:24:33] Speaker B: Right. [01:24:33] Speaker A: Doesn't realize that they're involved in the corruption. Like, it's so interesting. And so, like, Whedon says this. He says, we didn't often know what to do with Jay's character. Yeah, obviously, he says he had a real sense of feeling out of place. So I wanted to show something from Jay that people hadn't seen. Plus, he looks really good in a suit and everything. And then Jay says the only thing nerve wracking about the whole change for me was that on my very first day back for that season, I had to do my big reveal as a lawyer. I didn't have the rest of the episode to build up to it. I just had to jump right in. That was difficult and I'd never done it before, but it actually turned out well. And it ended up setting me up for a lot of other roles as lawyers. It made me feel confident that I could do it. He actually, the next show that I think he went on to after angel, angel was a show called Conviction and it was a lawyer show. And he played a lawyer. Isn't that funny? [01:25:28] Speaker B: And it's also funny because the actress that plays Jasmine went on to play. [01:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:33] Speaker B: Went on to suits for like. I'm only saying that because I'm like, now I can like, see him being in suits and I wonder if he was ever in suits. I know he was in Grey's Anatomy. He plays a young doctor, like the older man who's there from the beginning. God, what's his name? [01:25:53] Speaker A: I don't know. I've never seen. [01:25:54] Speaker B: Oh, you haven't? [01:25:56] Speaker A: I haven't, No. I know it's like one of those shows that, like, you have to. But it just seems so daunting with, like, it is. [01:26:00] Speaker B: It's a lot. But anyway, he. He's in, like, a ton of flashbacks in Grey's Anatomy where he plays, like, a surgeon, and he. It's like the same vibe, like, the confidence or whatever. [01:26:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think that's. I mean, I. I don't work in film, obviously, but I know that they have to, like, schedule things based upon, like. Like, time constraints, budget, what sets are made, and stuff like that. But it always baffles me that they will do such, like, crazy scenes first. Jumping straight in. [01:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:31] Speaker A: And it just speaks to his talent to be able to just embody that without having the context of the rest of the episode behind him. At least, you know, know. All right, so he's like. Basically, he's like, you. Like, if you put Mr. Fries behind bars, the entrance that you're going to hold in the exports is going to be the controlling interest. So therefore, like, this is getting messier. And he's like, I'd prefer not to present the rest of our findings to the. In front of the jury. The judge is, like, valid. I'll seek counsel in my chambers. And so then Gun smiles back at Fries and Fry eyes look smugly at Lauren and Wes, and we're just like, oh, yes, people. Oh, my gosh. Like, master, what cost. [01:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:12] Speaker A: Then back at the school, Angel's still fighting until it's just him and Hauser pointing a shotgun at him. And then angel slips back to his human face and says, you know, that won't kill me. And Hauser says, it'll hurt. That part's fun. Angel says, agent Hauser, I'm honestly beginning to suspect that you're not part of the solution. Hauser's like, you really think you can solve the problem? Come into Wolfram and Hart and make everything right? Turn night into glorious day, you pathetic little fairy. Angel's like, I'm not. Not little. Okay. No one said you were. Well, I mean, no one thought you were really angry. [01:27:47] Speaker B: He's, like, extra beefy this season, too. [01:27:49] Speaker A: He really is. [01:27:50] Speaker B: Like, he's just filled out in, like, the right places, and he's just. You know, the shirts are tighter, the buttons are. Fewer buttons. [01:27:59] Speaker A: Like, he can just, like, pick you up and throw you over his shoulder. [01:28:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, across the room or something. [01:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Or, you know, spank your crusty. [01:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I have no problem spanking. That's it. I just have no problem spanking. Are we okay? [01:28:18] Speaker A: Nope. Nope, we're not. Nope, we're not. Hey, People were complaining we weren't fun enough last season. So here we are, guys. Take it or leave it. We're back, baby. Revitalized and thirsty because we were in the desert. So the thirst is real. And we're a little unhinged because it's our last season. So this is it. [01:28:41] Speaker B: And Angel's sexy again. [01:28:43] Speaker A: He is. And, you know, the storylines are good. We have sexy men in suits and we have sexy men spanking. It's just. It's good. It's really good. Harmony's here. Oh, my God, I'm excited. So we are living. So then Hauser's like, that's exactly what you are. You're minuscule. A dust mote on the shelf of the great institution. Now, you think I'm just a trigger happy jerk who follows orders, but I am something you will never be. I'm pure. I believe in evil. You and your friends, you're conflicted. You're confused. We're not. That is why you're going to lose. Because we possess the most powerful thing in the world. Conviction. So, okay, the interesting thing is him saying, I believe in evil. Which leads me to believe that Hauser himself is not necessarily like, a bad guy in the sense that, like, he's working for Wolverman Hart because he wants to be evil. Like, he was going to do the right thing thing, but maybe for the wrong reasons. And so maybe there's this idea that, like, if you have someone who's maybe too pure, they're willing to go in there and not think of, like, a different solution. They're not. There's not balance at that point. [01:29:47] Speaker B: You're like a sheep. He's just. He's not his own person. He doesn't make his own choices. He's just driven by what he's told to do. And I find it interesting that, like, if you look back at all the monologues blogs that evil entities on both of these shows say, they all kind of sound similar. They always talk about how simple it is. They always talk about how they're more powerful because they see things in a more, like, clear light and like, it's less work and all this stuff. But the thing that's always going to be their downfall is that they underestimate the good guys and they underestimate the power of good and having a choice voice and caring about other people and all of these things which I. I find interesting because, like, the things that he's saying is kind of similar to what evil Cordelia was saying to Angelus. Right. But she was evil at the time. We didn't. You know what I mean? It was just. It's like that idea of, like. [01:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:43] Speaker B: In which we sing to Connor and, you know, there's. Yeah. Anyway, I just thought that was interesting. [01:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Life is a lot more simple. Why are you making it so much more complicated and. Yeah. Like, just. Yeah. Falling into the trap. [01:30:55] Speaker B: Powerful if you're evil. [01:30:56] Speaker A: Right. Right. Yeah. [01:30:59] Speaker B: That arrogance is, like, always their downfall. [01:31:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's so interesting because I think it also. They do have a compelling argument because there's this innate human idea that if something is uncomfortable, it must be bad or wrong and it must be rejected. And it's like. No, actually, like, living in the tension and the uncomfortableness is how we grow. You know, you can't work out your muscles without them hurting a little bit. Like, painful doesn't always mean bad. And I think that for. Living in that tension is going to be incredibly painful. And you're going to want to constantly slip into a more black and white world because it's just simpler and it's easier and it's easy to get exhausted. So I really like that. That ends up being the big thing that the villains come back to because it is the most compelling argument for evil. In all honesty. It's easier. [01:31:46] Speaker B: It is. [01:31:46] Speaker A: You know. So then Hauser concludes with, you know, yeah, the most powerful thing in the world. Conviction. And that's what you don't have and what we do. And angel says, there's one thing more powerful than conviction. Just one. Mercy. Ooh, what a good line. What a good line. And he kicks Hauser in the chest, forcing the shotgun to point at his head. And then he kills him. And then we see there's another guy that's still alive. And he's like, what happened to mercy? As angel walks out. And angel says, you just saw the last of it. This is interesting. This is messy. And it tells you a lot about angel going into the rest of the season. I'm excited. Yeah, this is good. [01:32:33] Speaker B: Yep. [01:32:34] Speaker A: So then, back in Angel's office, everyone's gathered there. Eve tells them about guns. Enhancement of his mind with the comprehensive knowledge of the law. Angels, like, how can you possibly know they didn't do something else? And guns. Like, because I saw the man in the white room. He does a lot of scary things, but lying isn't one of them. Eve says, you needed a lawyer to go by here, to get by here. Charles had the most unused potential. His degrees are all forged, but he's the real Deal. Gun says, you want me to sing for Lauren? I could give him a little Pirates of His Ants. All of it, actually. And Eve says, I would also point out that he did just save the day without ever resorting to violence. How did you do? And everyone just kind of, like, sits there silently. And she says, I think you guys are going to make it work. Yay, team. I'll see you around. She takes off like. She's, like, swinging her hips, and you're like, girl. [01:33:19] Speaker B: She's too happy. Like, please just leave. [01:33:23] Speaker A: Yes. And then Lauren's like, of course, saving the day meant getting the scumbag who was ready to sacrifice his own son off on a technicality and then returning said son to said scumbag. And Wesley's like, fred and I have enough time to disable the charm now. He won't be in danger. Gun says that he can, like, tie him up in litigation for forever. And, like, in trial. He's like, and I can draw this out for months. Fred is like, is this going to be our lives now? Fighting our own employees, our own clients? Are we really gonna do any good? And Angel's like, yes, we are. We're gonna change things. We came to Wolfram and Heart because it's a powerful weapon, and we'll figure out how to wield it. Wesley says, or kill ourselves with it. Fred says, yay, team. And then angel says, no, sooner or later, later, they'll tip their hand and we'll find out why they really brought us here. He picks up the envelope from his desk, says, meanwhile, we do the work our way, one thing at a time. Rips open the envelopes. He says, we deal. The amulet falls out of the envelope with whatever comes next. Immediately, the amulet activates. Black whirlwind erupts from it, causing papers on Angel's desk to swirl. Something begins to materialize. A man's skeletal form shows, then gradually fills out until it's completely. And Spike is standing there, screaming and grunty. It's Spook. It's straight from the Hell Mount. And then we cut to Angel, Wesley standing there. And you can see the door. Wesley's like, Spike. And Angel's angry. He's like, Spike. And then Harmony peeks out. She's like, I know that yell anywhere. [01:35:00] Speaker B: I hope she ruins his life after what he did to her. [01:35:04] Speaker A: Right? Harmony is the absolute victim. Don't you dare get back together with him. Harmony. No. Come on. [01:35:11] Speaker B: Stay away from her. [01:35:12] Speaker A: Be the bigger person. [01:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah, stay away from her. [01:35:16] Speaker A: Literally. Leave her alone. [01:35:17] Speaker B: She doesn't Want to talk to you. Except Harmony does probably want to talk. [01:35:21] Speaker A: She. Oh, she definitely wants to. She's very excited. [01:35:24] Speaker B: Her blondie bear. [01:35:26] Speaker A: But just that right there. What a brilliant way to end the episode. Because you have three vastly different dynamics. And it probably is the three different fan reactions to seeing Spike. The people that are angry, the people that are kind of confused and ambivalent, and then the people that really love him. Like, it's perfect. [01:35:45] Speaker B: It's true. [01:35:46] Speaker A: Absolutely perfect. And what an agent of chaos. As if enough stuff wasn't happening, now we have chaos. [01:35:52] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:35:54] Speaker A: Perfect. [01:35:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's gonna be perfect. If there's anybody that's gonna, like, bring out the worst in angel, it's gonna be Spike. Like, good and vice versa. Like, mind you, like, they bring out the worst in each other, and I just love the chaos. Chaos. Chaos. [01:36:11] Speaker A: Not just say chaos. It's not chaosity. [01:36:14] Speaker B: Yes, I know you like it. I say chaosity is. [01:36:17] Speaker A: I don't really word. Not chaosness. Just the chaos. [01:36:20] Speaker B: I just made a new word. I. I can't wait to see the chaosity of them bringing out just the absolute, like, pettiness from each other. [01:36:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Petty Angel. It's been a long time since we've seen Petty angel, and I'm ready for it. [01:36:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:38] Speaker A: So, yeah, in case you guys can't tell, we are absolutely stoked for this season, and it's already setting up to be so much fun. And we're also very thought provoking, too. Like, I think this theme is just very interesting. What a. What a really unique way of stretching your characters and also, like, reimagining your show. [01:36:57] Speaker B: Like, yeah. [01:36:58] Speaker A: Taking the premise of the show to, like, a really interesting place. So I'm very, very excited to talk about that. I'm also excited about the interpersonal dynamics, the different story lines. There's just a lot actually to talk about this season. And it's also just fun. So it's going to good. [01:37:14] Speaker B: But very excited. [01:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, guys, that is the end of our very last premiere episode. Kind of bittersweet, but we have all season. Let us know your guys's thoughts. I know, I know. Season five is polarizing, so I'm very curious to see where our listeners fall. Whether it's an episode or a season that you love, a season you hate or one that you're ambivalent about. Yeah. And we'll try to, like, discuss different as we go along. Like, I want to discuss different people. People's, like, qualms about it, you know, about, like, Spike maybe taking away from different teammates and stuff like that, but I think it'll be good. So let us know your thoughts guys and we will see you all next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast and you can email [email protected].

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June 22, 2023

Season One Recap

Season One is in the books! Join Sarah and Lea as they answer your questions, discuss your theories, and talk about what they're most...

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01:25:18

October 19, 2023

S2. Ep12. Blood Money

Wolfram and Hart are sponsoring a fund raising benefit for a local teen shelter. Angel is suspicious of their motives and starts investigating. Meanwhile,...

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01:25:42

August 03, 2023

S2. Ep1. Judgement

Misinterpreting one of Cordelia's visions, Angel tries to help a pregnant woman and accidentally kills her demon protector. Join Sarah and Lea as they...

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01:24:13