Show Notes
Spike materializes as a ghost in Angel's office through the magic of an amulet; Angel tries to stop one of his clients from using human bodies as vessels for demon spirits.Â
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode two, just Rewards, written by David Fury and Ben Edlund, directed by James A. Cotner and aired October 8, 2003. All right, Leia, so you're super excited to talk about this episode where we left off last week. How did you feel? Do you feel like this episode lived up to your expectations of what you were hoping it was going to be?
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this episode is really fun. I feel like I, like, remember it really well. Like, I.
I remember it so well that, like, I was saying the lines before they said them.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Were you really? That's funny.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, this is, like, an episode that I've watched a lot. I just find it really fun. I think, you know, the banter is really fun. Obviously, I have some thoughts about Spike, so I'm excited to talk about that.
Yeah, I mean, we haven't really talked about Spike on this podcast, so I know everyone's. Time to shine, baby.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Never heard my takes on Spike, and I don't think you want to. No.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: The fact that we had to institute a no talking about Spike ban for the past four seasons should tell you a lot.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Talking about Spike is a little stressful, but it's fine. We can have our opinions and.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah, we can. I know we were talking about it before. I. And you guys know, like, we. We've kind of hinted at it, and we talked about it, I think, in our episode recap or our season recap for season four. Like, we are really excited to have Spike on the show because of how he and angel work really well together. In a lot of ways, Spike is kind of Angel's foil, and I think that Spike has, from what I recall, a really great arc this season, and I'm very excited to talk about it. Um, but, yeah, I have a lot to say about this episode. I have a lot to say about Spike, and I'm very excited to talk about. In contrast to what some of the reviews I've been reading have said and also kind of what some of the people that I've talked to have said about this episode and Spike coming into season five. I feel like I have. Not that I have all the answers, although I act like I do. I really don't, but I. I think I have a unique perspective, though, to bring to the Podcast because I have been doing the show with Buffy for so long, and I've been analyzing each episode, and I've been talking a lot about Spike and stuff. I'm very excited to kind of talk about my take on what the episode and the show is trying to say about Spike and how that correlates to Buffy in a way that I feel like when you haven't watched Buffy as recently as I have, I think sometimes it might be a little less clear about what this episode is trying to say about Spike.
That's not to say you can't figure it out, but I'm. I'm just. I'm excited. I made some. Some parallels to past episodes of Buffy and stuff, and I feel like. I don't know. I love this episode. I love what it says about Spike. I love what it. It's hinting at with Spike. I love what it says about Angel. I feel like in a lot of ways, it's a callback to kind of the earlier seasons of angel with bringing back a little bit of what does angel deserve? And Angels inner conflict that we haven't had in a really long time. So, yeah, I'm excited. Yes. So just rewards the episode title. It refers to this. The statement that is often described as a deserved outcome or result. So obviously the show is trying to address Spike and his possible redemption arc, slash his resurrection, but also Angel's decision to work for Wolfram and Hart. And it kind of brings up again, like I said, Angel's own inner turmoil with having Spike. Spike in the mix. Does Spike deserve to die? Does it change things if we compare him to Angel? And does Spike deserve this afterlife or does he deserve the afterlife that it seems he's heading towards? What does angel deserve? And it's like this constant, like, we're on the road to redemption, and now Spike's kind of thrown into the mix. And I just. I don't know. I find it very, very fascinating where we're kind of going with all of this stuff.
James masters makes his 100th Buffyverse appearance in this episode since his introduction in school. Hard. Which is kind of crazy. That is a long time to play a character crazy and then critically touched. So I have, like. It's a running joke now. I have referenced critically touched so much for the past. However long we've been doing this.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Have they reached out to you?
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Have they reached out? Yes. They would like me to write a post. Just kidding. I know literally, one day someone from there is gonna, like, stumble across our podcast and be like, wow, we should be reimbursed for how much Sarah's referenced us.
But I feel like I always quote them in regards to, like, the things that I feel like really resonate with what I view with the episode. And so I feel like, to be fair, I should reference things that I don't necessarily agree with and we can discuss it and so critically. Touch really, really loves the person who was writing the review because now they have different people that are doing it. Um, they really love Spike, but they feel that Spike's move over to angel is unnecessary and actually stunts his growth and takes away from all the growth he had over on Buffy. And so they have this quote where they said, as soon as he moves over to Angel, Spike hits a wall. For the last four seasons, angel has been following its own path and has been almost completely unrelated to its parent show. The occasional Buffy crossover were primarily confined to single episodes and served to progress the story and characters on Angel. So to suddenly bring a former Buffy character aboard and to focus the entire episode almost exclusively on him feels forced and at odds with what the show has given us in its earlier years. It doesn't feel like Spike was brought in for the sake of the storyline. It just feels like he was brought in for the sake of Spike. Furthermore, it appears the writers thought that Spike's character arc was too large and complicated to carry over to angel and explain to viewers. Although the basic facts of his past and recent history are stated up front, the prime goal here is not to utilize Spike for drama, but for comedy. This wouldn't be such a problem if the comedy wasn't used for to deconstruct his actions in Buffy's Chosen and so obviously set him up as a foil for Angel. The closest thing to an emotional issue the episode gives Spike to cope with is the sudden revelation that he has returned to life as a ghost. This unexpected twist gives us a brief shock, but within a few minutes it is affirmed as a mere gimmick. Suddenly, Spike has a new problem to deal with. All the fascinating developments that we have watched him go through over six seasons of Buffy now become obsolete, giving way to the new problem of restoring Spike's corporeality.
So, and I. I felt like it was important to read that and discuss it because I know a lot of our listeners and a lot of people that we have come into contact with. A lot of people struggle with spiking coming over to season five because for various reasons, I've heard he takes too much screen time from the other characters I've heard, oh, It's a regression. Kind of like this one. It's a regression of Spike. They don't do him justice. And then other people feel like, oh, it's too comedic. We miss more of the darker and more serialized versions from the past seasons. And, I mean, those are valid and stuff. But I am curious your thoughts on that quote, Leia, when it comes to this episode, you can save it for later.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: I think it's really hard because I think that you have to have a certain perspective of Spike coming into the show and from Buffy to have this perspective about Spike on the show. And I don't think that I share the perspective that Spike had developed so intensely on Buffy that when he comes over here, it's regression. Because I don't think that the Spike.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: From Buffy is, like, has achieved redemption.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I don't think this bike from Buffy has achieved redemption. There's nothing on that show that I believe shows that down to the moment that he died. Like, and we can talk about that when we get there. But I think that's my issue. Like, I can see some points where it's, like, this episode, you know, very comedic, very almost, like, petulant. Like, this was old school. Like, season four Spike, where he's just, like, whining and bitching and moaning and stuff like that. But I also think in context of, like, who he's being paired up with.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: Like, yes.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: I think people forget that angel and Spike bring out, like, the worst in each other. Like, they have a very long and complicated history. And I think that, in my head, makes. The way that he's acting makes sense. On top of the fact that the entitlement that he expresses, the way that it kind of makes you kind of rethink his arc on Buffy is kind of true to how I view his arc on Buffy. So that's why I don't have a problem with it necessarily.
So I think it just depends. And I think it's hard to talk about Spike because people have such divisive or opposite, I would say, views and interpretations of the character. Yeah, like, discourse about Swike is very passionate because people feel very passionately, one way or another. I feel like there's very little, like, middle ground.
So I think that's why I don't agree, because I have. So, like, we'll cover this throughout the season. But my thoughts on Spike going all the way back to Buffy are why I think that him being included on this show actually does serve the show ultimately. Like, I think it's a good fit. I actually think he should have been included on the show earlier. I think that his time on Buffy was extended for way too long. He overstayed his welcome on Buffy, in my opinion. And he fits more on this show for a variety of reasons. But I think his inclusion in this season in particular works really well. And not for Spike necessarily, but for angel and also for Spike in a way, because I think a lot happens with him in this season that I wish I could have seen happen over on Buffy where they were claiming that he has this big redemption arc. I just, like, never saw it, you.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Know, so, yeah, and I totally echo that. I think a lot of how you view Spike and this episode and how effectively he's used in this episode and continuing on depends upon on how you view Spike's arc on Buffy. If you feel that his moment in Chosen is the culmination of his redemption arc, then you're going to feel that this episode and this season are a regression for the character. However, if you're like us and you see this as kind of like a finally for Spikes arc, I think you're gonna. Then you're gonna like it. And so, to be honest, I like my own personal opinions. I mean, I think. I know not everybody listens to us over at becoming Buffy. So some of this is going to be kind of like, review. You guys can go back and listen if you want to. We've covered like, full for Love, other things like that, where I really kind of talk about what I feel like the show is doing with him. But I. I personally feel that season seven of Buffy both kind of held back on Spike's redemption arc and also fast traveled it like, like sped it up because they didn't have a ton of time to devote to it and also because they knew he'd be coming to Angel. And so in a lot of ways, the show wrapped it up in a way that was supposed to be satisfactory on Buffy because the show was ending. But in a lot of ways it didn't feel earned. And so it's kind of bizarre because season seven, it's both rushed and crammed, and it didn't really have the time to devote to Spike yet. It also featured him heavily and also rushed his redemption arc. So, I mean, everyone knows how I feel about Spike's feelings for Buffy. And I mean, I. I see it as obsession and actually a massive disservice to his arc by having him stay in Sunnydale after he becomes unsold. And I've talked about how, like, vampires are the antithesis of the Slayers in their inability to grow. Like, Joss literally wrote vampires to be the opposite of adolescence and to show, like, an existentialist way moving forward constantly. And so Spike's arc was all about how he would become obsessed with Slayers because killing them gave him a sense of purpose, which vampires don't have because they're dead. And I talk a lot on Buffy about how Spike and Riley were compared on the show as being stagnant and purposeless, especially in season five. And the writers resolved both of their storylines very similarly by having Riley going back to the military and Spike going back to Sunnydale because of Buffy, and. And how. I have issue with both of those storylines because if you're going to show growth, your characters need to change not only their behaviors, but their motivations. And Riley's arc in season four was becoming an anarchist and rebelling against the system that wanted him to think like them. Season five had him going back to the military. Spike's unsold unlife was defined by him becoming obsessed with the Slayer and then using them to find purpose. So he should have left Sunnydale to go find purpose elsewhere in order to have an actual redemption arc that didn't center Buffy because he goes back to Buffy and she becomes his catalyst for redemptions for season seven. I say that quotations. So it's like, it doesn't make sense. It actually is completely counter everything the show has been telling us, you know, And I. I have this later on, and this is just gonna be my caveat, I think. And I say this with as much, like, love and grace as I can. I think people often forget that these shows are about Buffy and Angel. And so when I see reviews, like, what Critically Touched says about, like, oh, my gosh, like, Spike just ends up being a foil for Angel. And, oh, my gosh, all this stuff, it's like, Spike is not the main character here. Yeah, he's not. He. He wasn't over on Buffy, and he's not here. And I'll unpack that in a little bit when we get to it, because I have another interesting thing to say, but at the end of the day, all the characters are interesting. Like, Wesley is super interesting. But their stories all point back to angel in a lot of ways or to Buffy. Like, there's so much interconnectedness, because at the end of the day, these stories are about angel and Buffy.
So if you struggle with the fact that Spike isn't getting as much screen time or he seems like the story is not servicing him, it's not about Spike. And that's. Yeah, that's how I there to service.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: The story and the main character, which is not Spike.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And he can have a great and fulfilling arc apart from that. But it's always gonna kind of reflect Angel a little bit.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why when I say I like Spike in this season because it reveals a lot about angel, because this is Angel's show. Like, I'm here to watch the show for angel, and I know a lot of people aren't. I know that. I know a lot of people watch just season five for Spike, and Spike has a lot of fans and that's fine.
But these are all things that will affect the way you view his place in this season. Because I think him being a foil is what he does best. But they do it in a way in this season that I feel like it also services his character so it works out. Whereas before, he kind of just suffocates everything around him. He's like a black hole that just sucks everything in and just destroys it.
Yeah. Wow, that was dark. Sorry. But.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Speaking of black hole, we open up on the helmet. No, there's like that transition right there.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Anyway. All right, well, congratulations if you have stuck around this long. Thank you for listening to our rant.
Let's talk about the episode.
All right. Black Hole, Sunnydale, Hellmouth. Okay, so after the previously on. We get that title screen that says Sunnydale, California, the hell 19 days earlier. I was like, wait, what? We're actually doing it.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: And also we have a time period. It's been 19 days.
Damn.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I think it was IMDb that said that this breaks kind of the traditional thing that almost, I think pretty much every single season break does where they do like a summer break that kind of corresponds with the show's own break, but this one actually is just 19 days. So, you know. Here we go. So we get a quick flashback to the events surrounding Spike closing the Hellmouth. His interactions with Buffy. Interestingly, they emit the I love you and no, you don't. It's a lot more epic, less melancholy. And then, bam, we're back to the present with Spike, as that was his last memory before this. He looks around him, panic stricken at the unfamiliar faces. He sees Harmony, Lauren, Fred, Wesley. Harmony's like, what the hell are you doing here? I love trying to calm him down, telling him no one's gonna hurt him. And gun's like, yeah, speak for yourself. I hunted vampires for a living here.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: And also, he knows who he is. Which is.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: No, he totally does. We learned that.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Well, we learned that Gun has, like, demon knowledge, like, demon lore in his brain, too. Not just human lawyer stuff, which is very interesting.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So then Fred's like, will somebody please tell me who this is? Wesley says, it's William the Bloody. He's a vampire. One of the worst recorded second. Only two. And then Angel's like, me, angry. Spike just turns and faces angel, and Angel's like, but you are dead. And then Harmony's like, well, yeah, who here isn't?
And then she's like, wait, except for you and you and. And her. And she, like, points to Wes and Gun and Fred. And then she's like, wait, what are you again?
[00:18:14] Speaker B: To Lorne, he's just a Lorn. That's all. That's all you need to know.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: He is in a league of his own. Then Spike, he's, like, still staring at Angel, Vamps out, lunges at him, but then goes straight through him, and then is, like, disappeared into Angel's desk. And I love this. Again, the metaphorical, like, thing of, like, Spike and being a new and sold vamp. But the fact that, okay, Spike and Angel can't kill each other or even fight anything out. And so they actually have to work out their issues. It's so good.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: Yeah. They have to talk at each other. And, boy, does Spike do a lot of talking in this episode.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Taking the notes. I was just like, oh, my gosh.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: So much exposition.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: It's a lot of yapping. But it's also funny, too, so I don't mind it.
So Spike and Angel, they're just staring at each other in confusion. Spec's like, bugger, so he's not corporeal. He's like, I'm. You know, I'm no bloody ghost. And Harmony's like, you know, you can't talk to me. Mean. As he, like, snaps back at her, she's like, we're not going out anymore. Again. Ah. The way these shows just do a wonderful job of catching you up to date on the history of these characters. Because literally, seasons and seasons of history, but they're cleverly revealing it in a very organic way through each of the characters. And I just really, really love it.
So then Wes figures out Spike came from the amulet. Yeah, definitely Team Harmony. Angel clocks that the. It's the amulet he gave Buffy. Spike's ears perk up at that. And he's like.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: He starts breathing hard.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: He's just, like, puffy, hyperventilating. I'm Surprised he didn't just disappear again.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: It was so dramatic.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: It was very dramatic. Angel's like, yeah, she's in Europe. And then you can kind of, like, tell. He looks a little, like, insecure. He's like, last I heard from her. And we're like, oh, have you not heard from Buffy recently? Angel? You didn't run Wolfram and Hart taking that up front by her?
[00:20:13] Speaker B: You know what I think happened after Chosen? I think Buffy and the Scoobies and everybody went to Los Angeles, because where else are they gonna go, right? Like, that's the nearest airport. So they went to Los Angeles. They, like, touched base with Angel. They probably rested up in the hotel for a few days and. Or maybe a few weeks. Maybe, like, a week or two.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: It's been 19 days, Leia. There hasn't been.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Okay, so maybe a week. Maybe, like, seven days. They just, like, chilled in the hotel. They rested up, you know, regain their energy. People went to the hospital, got patched up, whatever. And then Buffy was like, you know what? I'm going to Europe. And then her and angel just, like, keep in touch. Like, I think it's the. The way that I read it, Angel's annoyance was that Spike was asking him. He was just like, totally.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Could be. Yeah, it could be. Again, he saw Buffy, like, 19. Literally 19 days ago.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Literally 19 days.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: It hasn't been that long since they haven't seen each other. Yeah.
[00:21:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: So then Spike's like, want to see her? Want to talk to her? Angel says, that's going to be tough. And Spike's like, you can't keep her from me. And angel says, she's not mine to keep or yours.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: Those are just jumping to conclusions. Okay?
[00:21:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Spikes, like, says, you. You've got no idea what we had. Angel's like, you never had her spikes. Gets in his face, is like, more than you. And then Harmony's like, oh, my God, you.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Harmony is like, me and Sarah.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: She's like, that's just like, I.
I love that. I know. You had that twisted obsession with her.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: I was like, ooh, Harmony knows what's up.
Harmony is us.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: And Spike's like, I must be in hell. Lauren's like, I know, la, But a lot of people make that mistake. Fred's like, so Spike and Buffy are. Wesley's like, yeah, he was an ally of hers for some time. At least that's what Angels told me. That's all Angels told me. Meanwhile, Angel's, like, folding his arms, and just Larry gets Spike.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Okay? But one thing that I will say, if Spike is dead, why would angel tell anybody any of. Like, why is it relevant to the. To his team, all of these details? Do you know what I mean?
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Like, I know this show is trying to be like, oh, Angel's petty, and he's, like, withholding information because he's like. He's feeling insecure and stuff. But in my head, I'm just like, but Spike. Spike is dead. Like, as far as Angel's concerned, For the last 19 days, Spike has been dead. Like, why would he tell them all this information? All they need to know is that Buffy and Co. Saved the world and made it out alive and Spike died. That's it.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Like, no, that's so valid. I think. Yeah. I think the episode is, again, is trying to set Spike up as a foil for angel and kind of use Spike as. Like, as a way to reveal the tension that angel is feeling with his role at Wolfram and Hart and all that stuff. But unfortunately, they have some moments, like, in the lab, where guns, like, yeah, you're not telling us a lot. Or all that stuff. It's like, well, why would angel need to tell you there's another vampire out there with a soul and stuff. Like, it bears no relevance to what you guys.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: He only just found out 19 days ago. And then the said vampire with a soul literally died.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: So it's like, yeah. So why would he tell you? Because he's not. He's dead. Like, I don't know. Right. Which means that angel and Buffy did touch base after everything happened at the Hellmouth. Because Buffy would have had to tell him, hey, Spike is dead. Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: That's why I'm saying my headcanon is that the Scoobies went to Los Angeles after because there was literally nowhere else for them to go.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: And angel was like, so are the cookies done baking? They did get roasted in the. The Hellmouth, so maybe they, like, you know, sped up the cooking a little bit.
The cookies done yet?
[00:24:06] Speaker B: May I have some cookies, please?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Bobby's like, no, the cookie. The cookie dough needs to go to Europe. I want to bake in the oven.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Cookies need, like, imported, like, European chocolates. Like, I need to go and get some, like, expensive chocolate. And, you know, from different countries. You know, she. The cookie needs to see the world a little bit. And I support that for the cookie.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, go, Cookies.
Okay. So then Gun's like, oh, so he's a good guy vampire. Like Angel. Angel's like, he's nothing like me. Spike says, got that right. What have you done to me? Looks around the office and says, what is this place? What is happening? Cut to the science department. Wesley's looking into a microscope while Fred scans Spike with a beeping instrument.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: He looks like Nosferatu. He's just like.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: He really does. He kept, like, wrapping himself in his coat. Also, it's so funny seeing James Masters on, like, Team angel is tall. Buffy, that team is short. So seeing him here, it puts you into perspective of how exactly how tall James Marsters actually is.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: And he's not that tall.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: So funny.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: I think he said before in an interview that he wore lifts when he came over to Angel. Or maybe it was in the dark. He, like, was so insecure about how much taller David Poreanas was. So he wore lifts. And it's so funny.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah, he said he had to, like, adjust the way he ran and stuff because it was, like, messing with it. Yeah. So funny.
Then Lauren talks about how, like, you know, this vampire slayer both men loved, both men lost. Talks about how he could sell it to any studio in a heartbeat. You know, Compares it to Pirates of the Caribbean with Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom. Fred introduces herself to Spike, and this, again, this episode really does catch you up on everything in a succinct way. She tells Spike about Wolfram and Hart, and he's like, I thought they represented the worst evil in the universe. And angel says, it did, among other things. But now I'm in charge. And Spike's like, are you now?
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Oh, is that so?
[00:26:05] Speaker A: His facial expressions were so funny. He was like, oh, so you're really, like, saying the quiet part out loud now, are we?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Then Fred says that she's getting electromagnetic readings consistent with spiritual entities, but there's no ectoplasmic matrix. Basically, that, like, you know, he.
Ectoplasm's what makes ghosts visible to the human eye. Technically, if he was a ghost, they shouldn't be able to see him. And she's saying. She says she sees brainwave activity. Of course. Angel's like, on Spike. That is.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: That was a good burn. So many good. I was like, ooh, burn.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: It was great. It's just, like, back and forth, constant. If I was the team, I'd just be, like, looking back and forth.
And then Fred's like, you know, ghosts normally absorb light and heat spikes. Radiating heat spikes. Like, think I'm hot, do you? And Fred's like, lukewarm.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Lukewarm temperature, yes. Turn him down.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: And then Wesley's like, he's clearly tied to the amulet. Spike's essence must have been held within it. Then he asks him if he has any memory of strange sensations. And then Spike's like, oh, you mean my skin and muscles burning away from the bone? Organs exploding in my chest? Eyeballs melting in their sockets? No. No memory at all. Thanks for ask asking. Yikes. Angel's like, okay, so he's connected to the amulet. How did it get here? Fred's like, maybe he's here for a reason. You know, some higher purpose or something he's destined for. Sent us by the Powers that Be to help us.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Oh, my God, girl, you gotta get lit up with the Powers that Be. Please, for the love of God. You guys, have we not learned?
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Triggered.
Literally. Yeah, we're. We're not talking. Our conduit is gone. We have. No way.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: 19 days. Have we really forgotten what happened last season?
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Literally. Yeah, it should be so fresh then. But of course, the show's not going to want to talk about Jasmine or anything.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: The Powers that Be. Like, really? We're still relying on the Powers that Be. We still believe in the Powers that Be, Guys.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: We are the Powers that Be now. Okay? Come on, Fred.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Literally.
God, let go.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: So then Spike's like, yeah, literally. Spike's like, who gave them the bloody right to do that? Can a man die in peace without some High Almighty deciding it's not his time? Let's have a little more fun with him. You think that saving the sodding world would enough to earn me rest, you think? And then, just as he says that, he flickers and he fades and disappears completely. They're very intentional on when Spike starts to flicker and fade away. And. Yeah, so then Fred goes to scan the spot, and they're like, oh, well, he's not here. And then she's like, what did he mean by saving the world? And of course, like, they just don't even worry about the fact that Spike just disappeared.
And then angel talks about how, like, Buffy did most of the work, Spike helps Spike rematerial materializes and is like, you know, my ears are burning. Everyone asks where he went. He seems confused. Didn't know he had left. And then he looks at angel and she's like, you. This is all your faults.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: You brought that bloody amulet to Sunnydale, Spikes.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You would have been the one to use it until you chickened out.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Sure thing.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: That's how.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Everything okay, Spike? That's definitely how happened.
As if he didn't literally put his hand out to Buffy and was like, give it to me now.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: I guess it's Mine. Yeah. He's like throwing darts at angel and his, like in the basement. And then he says, you heard me. You left town in the nick of time, didn't you? Before the death and mayhem. Abandoned the woman you claimed to love. Angel said she made the call. Wasn't my choice. And Spike says, and this bloody hell wasn't mine. I'm not you. I don't give a piss about atonement or destiny. Just because they got me a soul doesn't mean I'm gonna let myself be led around. And then this perks up Wes. Gun. Lauren and Fred. And they're like, hang on, Soul. They look at angel, they're like, you never said Angel's. Like, it didn't seem worth mentioning. Which, again, valid. There really was no reason to. Guns. Like, there seems to be a lot of that. And then Spike's like, or maybe Captain Forehead was feeling a little less special. Didn't like me crashing his exclusive club. Another vampire with a soul in the world. And angel goes, you're not in the world. Cast Jasper. And walks away.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Angel has some great comebacks this episode. That was a good one.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: He also just looks so sexy.
Shoulders his arms.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: Can I just say, Spike. Can I just say that maybe angel left because Buffy asked him to leave? And maybe Angel. Yeah, listen to what Buffy wants.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah. He's like, my choice. She made the call. Like angel. That's something I've always appreciated is he understands when Buffy makes a decision, that's her choice. And he stands by it. And I appreciate that.
So in the hallway, Angel's walking down. He passes the male guy wearing a Mexican wrestler's Mac mask before Spike materializes beside him. And he's like, running away again. Angel just rolls his eyes and he's like. And then spikes his nice new MO. I can see why heroes like you get rewarded with a shiny new glass and chrome. Why didn't I think of that? And then angel says, I'm not responsible for what happened to you. They walk past Harmony's desk and then she says, angel, it's almost 3:00. You have a meeting scheduled. He's like, not now, Harmony. My Angel. When are you going to start listening to Harmony? Because she actually does have good things to say. She gave you a freaking helicopter last episode. Okay. Yeah, I think she's earned her place to speak.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah, she's doing really well for a secretary. To be honest, I had my doubts.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: Me too. She's the best. Honestly.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: She's single handedly keeping this team afloat at this point, she really, really is.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: And then, of course, Spike, like, blames angel for hiring Harmony. He's like, you know, now you've got my ex tumble. Which I was like, oh, my gosh, what a horrible.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Her name is Harmony, first of all.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: And she wanted it to be more. Yeah.
And then he's like, I'm not. I know you. Angel, what do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is, you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: And there is the insightful Spike. Yeah, for sure, he has a point.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: And that's why Spike is really good for angel, because as foils, he's able to see into things that obviously the show wants him to, but it also helps inform us. And it kind of pokes at Angel a little bit and causes angel to kind of hopefully think through things a little bit more.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: And it makes sense because of the history that they have.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: You know, centuries. Well, not centuries. I think they only really spent, like, a few decades together, but they've known each other for centuries, whether together or separate, you know, so, you know, it works.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Since Spike's like, you think you're in control here? Guess again, mate. You're no more in control than I am. Except I'm not going to bloody stand for it while you're just a blind. And then he's like, goxler Beast. We see this giant Groxler Beast comes in from the elevators. Angel immediately just starts fighting him. Spike tries to fight him, but his fist goes straight through. The demon goes towards Angel. They fight, and angel finally overpowers him and knocks him out. And he's like, somebody want to tell me how Groxler Beast got past security? I don't have time for this. And then Spike's like, of course not. Man's got to stay focused on profit margins and power lunches. And then Harmony comes in and is like, hey, that was your 3:00. And then Spike just laughs at him. And Angel's like, I'm meeting with groxlers. They eat babies. And then Harmony's like, just their heads. You were supposed to open negotiations with his clan. Then Gun walks up and is like, you gotta. You wanted to negotiate with them to get him to stop eating baby heads. And he's like, this is actually really good. Groxler's like, they really respect someone who takes a strong Opening position. And so, like, you know, we probably should have briefed you, but, you know, we got sidetracked. This is fine. And then he talks about how they fired 40 employees in the past two days, that they're kind of, like, really busy right now. Angel walks besides Gun as they head back towards his offices, and they kind of asks him how that's going. And then Gun's like, well, I mean, it's going about as expected. You know, Tears, anger, venomous death threats. And so then they take off, and Spike and Harmony are in the lobby. Harmony tries to, like, make amends. She's like, hey, if you want to, like, talk or something. And then Spike just completely ignores her and walks away. And she's like, slayer loving freak.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: I love her.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: It's honestly healing a part of me to see Harmony, like, kind of getting back at Spike after how awful he was with her at.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: He was so awful to her.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: He was very bad. Yeah.
So then in Gun's office, Angel and Gun are talking, and they're trying to have a meeting about the people that Guns been laying off. Spike comes in, just starts talking. Angel's like, I'm in a meeting, Spike. Spike's like, I don't care. And Gun's like, okay, we've ruffled a lot of feathers. Like, there's going to be backlash. Angel's like, well, we'll just have to ride out the waves. And then Guns, like, I'm sensing a ripple right now. We see a man wearing, like, a blue dress shirt and a spotted yellow tie. Novak comes in. He's like, hey, I hear you're shutting down the Internment Acquisitions Division. Angel, like, looks at Gun. He's like, translation, please. Guns, like, grave robbing. And Novak's like, hey, you know, I know you guys are in charge. I think you're doing a great job, and I'm with you 110, but that department brings a lot of money for us. And Spike's like, oh, brother. Like, rolling his eyes. And Angel's like, well, Novak, we're just gonna have to tighten our belts and do without. Novak's like, yeah, no, that's not gonna happen, because IAD is under contract to provide fresh bodies to Magnus Hainsley. And you know who he is. And Angel's like, translation to Gun. And then you find out that he's their oldest client, that he's a necromancer. Well, I guess you find out that later. But basically, they deliver the bodies to him. They don't know what he does with these bodies or why he wants them. But Angel's like, I don't care. Tell him he's no longer our client. He tells Novak he has to do it. Novak's like, basically knows he's gonna die.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Okay, sorry. Can I just say, Spike in this scene is like, when you're. When you were young and you used to go to the grocery store with your mom, and she would, like, run into somebody that she knew, and they would just start talking for, like, 30, 40 minutes, just standing there. And you were. You would just, like, stand there staring at them just, like, with your arms crossed. And you weren't allowed to, like, go and wander off in the grocery store, so you just had to stand there and you were just getting more angry as time went on.
That's what it's giving. Like a little kid in the grocery store waiting for his mom to finish talking to her friend.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: 100. Yeah, it really is. He's like, so we're gonna do something about. Honestly, if I were in Spike's position, I'd be a little pricked, too. I'd be over there annoying angel constantly. Because I'd be like, hello, make me a priority and get me out of here. Like, I don't.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: What else can you do?
So then Angel's like, yeah, we're out of grave robbing now. Go along and argue your case. And then Novak. Novak, like, takes off, and it's just like, I'm dead. And then Spike's like, you don't have to take that from him, mate. And Angel's like, stay out of this, Spike. You don't work here. And Spike's like, damn right I don't. Look at you. This is what you do now. Delegate the dirty work to spineless, low level flunkies. And he's like, no offense to Novak. And then he's like, the mighty hero reduced to a bloody bureaucrat if a certain slayer can see you now. And Angel's like, just go away, Spike. And Spike's like, gladly. Cruel enough punishment being stuck here as a spook while you play chairman of the boring. But hell if I'm gonna spend my afterlife in your stinking city. Gets.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: My God, does this guy. He y so much. Like, just leave. Just.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: But again, like, this idea. And I think you were kind of hinting at this earlier, Leia. Like, having Spike unable to do anything but talk reveals spikes inability to take personal responsibility for anything. It's just constantly. This is your fault, Angel. This is your fault and all that stuff. And.
[00:38:10] Speaker B: And.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: And, I mean, it's easy, especially for Spike, to point fingers at angel, because angel sired the person who sired him. So in a lot of ways, Spike's like, you're technically responsible for why I am the way that I am. So it's gonna be really interesting to watch him kind of work through that and go, no, but your choices are your own. Ultimately, you've got to stop blaming it on everybody else, for sure.
So that night in Angel's office, Wes walks in. Then he sees that Angel's, like, brooding, and so he starts to, like, walk away.
Angel asks about Spike and is like, you don't really think he's gone to you. And then Wesley's like, that's what's on your mind. And angel goes, could have been me. Wes was supposed to be me. And Wesley says, you're not feeling guilty? Angel says, about Spike. That's not. And then he says, wolfram and Hart gave me that amulet. They must have expected me to use it. And they had to have known it would have done to me what it did to Spike. So. And then Wesley's like, why bother handing you the keys? The kingdom? And angel says, it doesn't make sense. What are the senior partners playing at?
And I like how now, like, we're not worried so much about the Powers that Be, but now it's the senior partner, so we've just basically swapped out one for the other. And Angels try thinking, maybe he has more choice and more freedom here. And he's starting to wonder, maybe I'm not. Maybe it's still the same gang, and I'm still being, you know, led around.
So then Wesley's like, maybe there's dissent in their ranks. Maybe there's another player in the game we don't know anything about. And then Spike shows up, and Angel's like, I thought you were leaving town. We find out that Spike couldn't leave town because every time he goes to the city limits, he ends up getting popped back to Wolfram and Hart because he's tied to the amulet.
And so he's like, I'm nobody's bloody property. So what? I'm just stuck here forever. And which is an interesting parallel again to what Angel's feeling. Angel's feeling like somebody's property. Now with the scene, your partners and the Powers that Be, it's same as Spike. So those parallels are paralleling.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Look at these boys. They think they're so different, but really.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yep. So then Harmony comes in and says, novak lawyer is back. Angel says, send him in a couple Guys come in with suits full of sloppy red liquid, and we see a bright yellow spotted tie hanging over the edge. And then Spike's like, you're doing such a great job.
And then back in the lobby, angel walks out to Harmony's desk and is like, hey, let's be discreet. I. We need to contact his close relations, but, like, let's not let this spread. And Harvey's like, on the phone, she's like, discreet. Oh, you mean like, not tell anyone about Bucket old lawyer? And he literally like, pushes down the receiver and it's like, harmony, contact.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: Listen, she's trying her best.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: Literally only her second day on the job.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Okay, like, and she's doing.
Yeah, it's the first.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: No, it's still the first day of her job. Like, we're gonna give her grace.
Then Gun shows up with info on Magnus Hainsley. We find out he's a necromancer with power for the dead, which is why he wants the bodies. Angel's concerned about what he's doing with the bodies. They walk back into Angel's office and lo and behold, Spike is seated in Angel's desk chair with his feet on the desk. And just like, how is he sitting?
[00:41:26] Speaker B: If he like, so he like, oh, my God, went through the desk.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Right?
[00:41:31] Speaker B: But now he's sitting on the chair.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Oh, I know. Dude.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: How's he, like, is he just hovering maybe?
[00:41:36] Speaker A: Desk.
Yeah.
These shows are ridiculously awful when it comes to non corporeal beings. Like, season seven is an absolute mess with Giles when we think that he might be non corporeal. And they don't happen, right, or anything. And then like, you know, the first evil and all this. Yeah, this. Yeah. Not a new thing. Angels, like, get out of my chair. Spikes, like, make me guns. Like, what's in the buckets? Angel size spikes. Like your man Novak. Guess he's been, what do you call it? Downsized. And angel talks about how it's a message from Magnus Hainsley. He's going to reply to it personally. And Wesley's like, hey, I don't think you can do that by yourself. And then he's like, you have a multi million, multi billion dollar company at your disposal with armed and trained personnel. And angel says, they cramp my style as he's desperately poking like, like different spots in the wood, trying to get the elevator to open. I love non tech savvy Angel. It's so funny.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: I know.
Far cry from the guy who was manhandling. Manhandling. Who was just handling like three computers. In the. Remember, in the pilot, in the library, he was like. He had three of them going at the same time, just like typing so fast. And now, to be fair, I could.
[00:42:51] Speaker A: Probably do that on a computer, but would try to open, like, an elevator that doesn't have an obvious button. I'd be poking around the paneling, too.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, agreed.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: So then gun says, hey, I know what you should do. That I have something that will hurt him bad. We cut to the garage. Angel walks out into the elevator, and he's got all his cars lined up against the wall. He goes to a black Viper, opens the door, and Spike's like, typical. Knew you'd pick the Viper. So predictable. Angels like, spike, get out of the car. Spike says, no. And he's like, I'm haunting you. He's like, this haunting you till the end of time idea of yours is starting to sound appealing. I could drive you completely stark right out of your gourd. Yeah. And you wouldn't be able to do a sodding thing about it. Angel gets out, slams the door, walks to the next car, spikes again, sitting in the passenger seat. And Angel's like, oh, my gosh. And then they take off and they drive. So annoying because she's like, little kid. So road trip. Where are we going? What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: He's so annoying, but also so funny.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: That tick tock, like, capcot template where it's like, you have Melissa. What's her name? Melissa McCarthy. Melissa McCarthy road tripping with Jason Bateman. And she's singing My Milkshakes Bring all the Boys to the Yard. And he's looking so over it. And that's. That's Spike and Angel as they're driving along. And she's like, you're. You're as better than mine, or whatever that song goes. And he's just like, please just shut up. That's the two of them right now.
I'm gonna post that tick tock.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, you. You make that one, Sarah.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: It's literally them. It's literally them. I'll show it to you later.
Then the butler lets Spike and Angel inside of the house. He's like, hey, do you have an appointment? And he's like, Mr. Haynes, Hainsley's with a customer. He does not suffer interruption lightly. Angel's like, not so worried about his suffering. Go ahead and interrupt. The butler's like, like, as you wish. So he takes off. And then Spike makes more, you know, pokey comments and is like, oh, my gosh. Life among The Power Elite. And then they move off into another room. And the room is decorated like a Victorian parlor with a few dozen people standing around, posed as if it were a wax museum. Angel realizes that this is the showroom for all of the people that Hainsley has. Very creepy from the dead. Which, yeah, necromanced, I guess. We see in Hainsley's workshop, a woman's lying on a table in the center of a red pentagram that's painted on the floor. And then the man's chanting. Then essentially he like sticks his hand inside the woman and then grabs the essence of the demon, puts it inside of the woman. And then the butler comes in and Hainsley's like, just kill the two guys. The actor who plays Hainsley is played by Victor Rader Wexler, who's known for his roles in minority report and Dr. Dolittle too, and a bunch of other things. I think he is such a great presence in this episode. Like, he really has, like, you've really. He has an imposing presence and it just made this episode a lot scarier in a lot of ways. And I kind of wish he had stuck around because he's really.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: I thought he was like, kind of endearing. I was just like, oh, he's. You thought he was endearing? Yeah, I was just like, look at this little old man just bringing corpses back to life. And he just. He was like a mustache twirling, almost like villain to me.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: But he was so fun. He was like, I really enjoyed it a lot.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: It worked because he was like, you know, just the way he talked and like the fact that he has a butler in his like, fancy house. Like, you go in, I'm sure if you looked outside, it's like a spooky looking mansion with like cobwebs everywhere. It's just spooky vibes.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: But yeah, it's just fun and gothic and it like is. Was serious without being too serious. And yeah, it was very fun.
So the butler comes back out and we go back to Spike and Angel and it's, you know, this is the. What I mentioned earlier, where Spike's talking about how like, maybe the necromancer is just lonely. And then he says, or angel says, I mind. Even though, like the people that are dead may not mind. And Spike says, why? They're the lucky ones, aren't they? It's over for them. They've shuffled off cleanly the one time nobody's shoving them back into the stinking world against their will. This goes back to what you were saying, Leia. Like, Spike wants the easy way out. Spy. Spike wants to be done. Because coming back, it's really hard living with a soul because then life is a little bit trickier and you have to keep fighting. And he'd like it if everything was done. He was at peace, he did his good deed and that's it. And he doesn't quite understand the challenge that angel has already figured out at this point, which is it's not really ever over for them. Like, the fight is continuous.
So the butler comes back in. It's like, Mr. Hainsley has asked that I send you back to Wolfram and Hart. And then pulls out butcher knives. He's like, in a manner of speaking, then. And it spikes like, oh, looks like it's buckets for you.
So then angel reaches for a tiny teaspoon and throws it. The butler lands in his head. It was very cool. It's actually a nod from Ben. Ben Edlund. He incorporated the spoon death scene as an homage to his comic creation, the Tick, which we talked about that in season four, the superhero's battle cry was spoon. So it was supposed to be kind of like a little nod to that.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: I love how mad Spike is. He's just like, really? A spoon?
[00:48:18] Speaker A: He's like, even Spike knew that was cool and was like a little matted angel for it.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He's like, I can't admit it, but that's kind of sick.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: Literally. So then we threw it through the fight. Angel's like, hey, can you, like, not root for the other team? Spike says, I'm gonna root for anyone who has have a chance at taking you down a notch. Angel's like, what's your problem? Spike says, you are. You got it too good. Angel walks away. Spike says, you're a king of a 3:30 foot castle with all the cars, comfort, power and glory you could ever want. Here I saved the world. Throw myself onto the proverbial hand grenade for love, honor and all the right reasons. And what do I get? Bloody well toasted and ghosted is what I get.
[00:48:57] Speaker B: As you fucking should.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: And then the angel says, get anything?
[00:49:03] Speaker A: You asked for a soul. I didn't. It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent three weeks moaning in a basement and then you were fine. What's fair about that?
[00:49:15] Speaker B: Oh, he's got a point. It's the entitlement for me. It's the freaking entitlement that, like, if you feel that you deserve Something because of something that you did then. You didn't do that thing out of the goodness of your heart. You didn't do it because it was the right thing to do. You did it because you were expecting some type of reward at the end. And that doesn't make you, like, a hero. That doesn't make you, like a selfless person just because you did a good thing, you know? So this is. This is a thing. And I think this is a thing that's, like. It's woven through Spike's character from the very beginning. It's the sense of entitlement. Spike has always been a character who has the sense of entitlement to, like, if he wants something, like, he's gonna have it. He's owed this because he's the victim. He wants Cecily, he's gonna have her. He wants Drusilla, he's gonna have her. He wants Buffy, he's gonna have her by any means necessary. He wants to beat the Slayer, he's gonna go after the Slayer. It turns into, like, an obsession for him. So I think this is really, like, consistent with Spike's character. I think we saw it in Lies My Parents Told Me. I think we saw it a lot in season seven. We obviously see it in Seeing Red. We see it in, like. And. And so many parts of Spike's story, we see this, like, threat of entitlement. So I think this is very true to character.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: And I think people often get confused because season seven doesn't really hold Spike accountable for that entitlement. In fact, they almost reward him. Like, we're talking about Lies my parents told me because the show entangles Buffy's motivations with Spikes. And Buffy has to be right. And so therefore, Buffy has to be right about Spike. And so. And because Spike has to save the world and all that stuff, and so because of it, there's almost this misconception you get, that, oh, Spike deserves Buffy, Spike deserves all this other stuff. And it's like, it's not. And that's. That's one of my main issues with season seven. And that's what I really like about what's happening right now on the show in season five of angel is we're actually going to hold Spike accountable for those things and maybe actually see some.
[00:51:23] Speaker B: Remorse, and maybe he can earn something. Maybe he can earn some type of quote unquote reward or whatever. And by reward, I mean a sense of responsibility and a sense of, like, fulfillment. That purpose has to do with just himself.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: Yeah, purpose, absolutely. We haven't seen a Spike with real purpose ever.
[00:51:47] Speaker B: No.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: And so it would be really nice to see that. Yeah, totally. But it's interesting because again, once angel starts speaking truth and holding Spike accountable, Spike fades again and disappears. And so it's like each time it's almost this, like this picture.
He's avoiding the truth. He doesn't want to be held accountable. He doesn't like it when things are pulled up and he actually is going to be held accountable for things. He doesn't. He doesn't want to. He wants the easy way out. He wants to just disappear. This is so, so interesting.
So then angel gets frustrated, goes into the workshop, knocks down the doors. We haven't had a good, like, door fight in a while. We haven't had a good window breaking in a while. Leia. I just realized that, like, on.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: At some point, it's just keeping track.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I know.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: I missed it.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: Hainsley's like, come in. It's open.
Angels like Hainsley. And then they talk a little bit. And then the woman, like, pops back up, which is obviously the demon. She, like, tries to slip out. Angel grabs her by the arm and then her eyes glow red and she snarls at him. But then he punches her out and he says, I'm cutting off your skin supply, Hainsley. As of now, your body shop is. And then with a flick of his wrist, Hainsley takes control of Angel's body and says, who do you think you're talking to? I eat the dead for breakfast, and you're just another plate of bacon and eggs. Oo. Didn't think that one through now, did we? Spike shows up behind Angel. Again, I love the metaphor of, like, Hainsley as the necromancer is him being able to control angel is how angel feels about Wolfram and Hart, how he feels about the Powers that Be, how he feels about the. The senior partners and stuff. And he. They're showing how angel is still pushing and rejecting all of that stuff, whereas Spike ultimately doesn't give in. But he kind of flirts with the idea there for a little bit.
[00:53:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is fine because he's just beginning his journey.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: And I just want to do, say, just. Just a side note, we're talking a lot about how Spike has all of these, like, I wouldn't say negative traits. They're just traits of Spikes. But I think, although I don't like the way that Spike came about the soul and the journey thus far, I'm not a huge fan of it. I do Think that the fact that Spike has a soul now, like, he is worthy.
He does deserve the chance to have redemption, you know, so totally us. Like, me saying all of those, like, negative things doesn't mean that I don't think Spike should have the chance to, like, have purpose and have these things. Like, I actually think, yeah, he has a soul now. Let's make the best with it that we can. You know, even though the journey there was questionable at many.
[00:54:36] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. No, I agree.
So then Spike appears. Hainsley is like a ghost. You brought a ghost as your backup vampire. And Spike's like, I'm not here to back him up. I just haunt the bastard. Angel's like, stay out of this. And then Spike's like, oh, stick it far as it'll go. You go ahead, Wiz. Do what you want. The whole, like, wizard of Oz thing. We're off to see the Wizard. Hainsley says, what I want is to turn you inside out like a shirt. I could dust you right now. Wouldn't even need a steak. He lets go of Angel. He says, but that would be too big of an insult for the senior partners to overlook. Seems they've got plans for you. Angel's like, well, I've got plans. He pulls out his cell phone, tells gun to do it, then tells Hainsley that he just froze all his bank accounts, terminated his paper assets, turn his books over to a very motivated contact. We have at the irs. Five minutes. For now, he'll be. He'll have nothing but the house. And then in 10 minutes, he won't even have that. And Spike's like, what in the world kind of fighting is this? Hainsley's like, you think you can get away with that? I'll see you to hell, Angels. He's leaving, goes, good luck. Where are your lawyers?
[00:55:37] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Then he takes off. Haynes is like, this is an over vampire. They go into the lobby and then Spikes like, so that's how you're going to fight the forces of evil now? Call the irs. And he says, whatever it takes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:51] Speaker B: It's not just always punching and kicking Spike. And that's also another thing that's true to Spike's character. He's very much like a hothead. He's very much like, go in and punch with your fists. Very much like faith is or was.
Angel, on the other hand, is more like. Has always been more strategic, even as Angelus. Like, he's always been more into the psychological torture or, like, the strategy of a fight. He always has something in his back pocket. Spike is just very reactive. So they're very different in that sense. So it makes sense once again that Spike is saying these things to angel and kind of judging him for the way he's handling this fight. But it's like, yeah, yeah. But, Spike, your way doesn't work either, because you literally can't physically fight right now. Like, yeah, you have that to rely on because you don't do anything else. But now you have to rely on, like, thinking things strategically.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:47] Speaker B: Instead of just punching. Because you're literally incorporeal. Like, maybe consider a different way.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: Right. Since Spike says, hello, irs, making fun of angel, will you fight my battles for me? And while you're at it, will you wipe my wide spotty? And then he disappears again. He's just like, oh, thank God, walks out of the house. Spike reappears, right. In Hainsley's workshop. And then Hainsley says, let's talk about you. You're a ghost. Well, close enough. This is. That's just a horrible way to be. You're not here. You're not there. Just lost somewhere in the middle. And you can't fight against it. You can't fix it. Hell, you can't even lift a finger because you simply don't have any. Boy, if that just isn't, like, a complete summary of everything I felt about Spike for five seasons over on Buffy.
Like, that's just it. I'm like, you don't have a soul. You don't have an option for choice. And then when he does have a soul, it's like, okay, you do have the option for choice, but you're not doing anything that makes you just as bad as before anyway. Whatever.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:45] Speaker A: So Spike's like, yeah, what is it to you? Hainsey's like, I can give you back what's been taken for me, but you're going to need to do something for me. Then Spike's like, you want me to hurt Angel? You want me to hurt angel, and I'm going to do it. You've come to the right ghost. So we go back to Angel's office. He walks in. Gun. Tells him that they wiped every asset that they. They could, but it wouldn't. It's not going to be easy because Hainsley has a lot of pies. Like, his hands in the pies. Fred and Wesley walk into the room, ask about Hainsley. Angel's like, yeah, yeah, it's done. Can we get back to dealing with my spiritual crisis, AKA Spike Ooh Split the tongue there. Fred and Wes tell him that Spike can't leave, and they aren't sure yet how to release him from the amulet in a conventional way. The unconventional way, is to give him eternal rest, the way Spike had asked. Then we go to the lobby, Spike appears back in the building, walks right by Harmony. And she's like, sigh, don't talk to me. And he's like, what? And she's like, whole time we were a thing, you treated me like day old rat blood. Why should now be any diff just because you've gone all Patrick Swayze? And he's like, what are you talking about? And then she's like, well, you know, just since you're all soulful now, I thought maybe, you know, you might have learned to open up a little, you know, talk. But I guess the leopard can't change his stripes and spikes like spots.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Leprosy never shuts up. Please don't encourage this. We need him to actually say less.
Angel, respect yourself.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: Literally. Spike walks. Yeah, don't engage, ignore. Walk away. Don't engage.
[00:59:11] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:59:12] Speaker A: So Spike walks towards Angel's office, overhears them talking about him. Wesley's in the middle of talking about how an exorcism. And Fred's like, we're talking about killing him. And then basically says that they're like, to leave him here, trapped between realms with no control over his fate is not merciful. Letting him cross over would be more merciful. Angel's like, yeah, yeah, mercy. I'm all for it. Just tell me how to do it. So then Wesley says, the amulet's protective, invulnerable to anything, but the magic that's protecting it doesn't work on hollowed ground like graveyards. So all they have to do is go to a graveyard or a church and destroy it and just destroy the amulet. Like, crush it. So then angel says, I want to sleep on it. So Fred places the amulet on Angel's desk, they all leave. And then angel, that night, walks into his apartment, gets ready for bed, and we have our first shirtless scene for the first time.
[01:00:03] Speaker B: It looks good.
[01:00:04] Speaker A: Two seasons. Leia.
[01:00:06] Speaker B: I know, I know.
[01:00:08] Speaker A: War is over.
That's how I feel. I was like, he looks. He looks.
[01:00:17] Speaker B: Looks good. He looks very strong. He looks very. Like, he's a little, like, thick, a little bit. Like he's filled out.
Yeah, he looks great in his little, like, pajama pants and that.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: And his beautiful apartment is starting to stick up again. And I just. Yeah.
[01:00:35] Speaker B: This is so much Angel. We just need, like a slutty necklace. That's all we need.
[01:00:40] Speaker A: That's what I was thinking I was missing. We need a chain. Yeah.
[01:00:43] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: So angel gets into bed, and then Spike starts talking to him from the shadows. And angel was like, oh, no. Throws a tantrum. It's like, no, no, no. I was like, no, angel, you don't give him a reaction because that's what he wants. The more reaction you give him, the longer he'll haunt you. Since. Spike says, you know, it's good to be king, isn't it? And angel says, ground rules. Haunt me all you want during business hours, but this space is off limits. Spike says, relax, beefcake. I didn't come for a fight. First the spanking, now this. Angel's like, really?
[01:01:17] Speaker B: Beefcake?
[01:01:19] Speaker A: He is a beefcake. Very young.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: Spike says, yeah, I overheard your group pow wow about me. Angel says, how much? He says, enough. And then. And Spike says, necromancer tried to make a deal with me. Said he could bring me back body and soul if I used our close personal relationship to double cross you. Angel says, tempting. So what did you say? Spike says, you see the. Right there. That. That's a problem. You having to ask me. I don't play for that side anymore. Or haven't you heard? Besides, even if Mr. Death could do what he promised, I trust him about as much as you trust me. An angel says, what do you want from me? And Spike says, I can't live like this. Angel being useless, being nothing. I want it to end.
Yeah. So then we cut to the cemetery. Angel and Spike walk through. Spike's like, I suppose this will do. Feels hollowed enough. Angel looks at the amulet and is like, sure this is what you want to do, Spike? Spike? Spike says, well, I don't want to hang out with you guys in your lot forever, so no thanks. Come on, you know as well as I do it's for the best. Angel picks up an urn and says, goodbye, Spike. Spike's like, I'm glad it's you. Feeling feels right. You doing me in circle of death and all that. So as he's about to crush the amulet, he ends up whacking himself in the head instead. And then he gets picked up off the ground and Hainsley appears and he's like, and the dead shall rise.
And he's like, vampires should think twice. Yeah. Or so we think. It's actually a triple cross.
[01:02:43] Speaker B: I love it.
[01:02:44] Speaker A: We got bamboozled and hoodwinked and all that. So then Hainsley drops Angel to the ground, knocks him out. Spike says, took your sweet time stepping in Hainsley. I came this close to getting a one way to the great beyond. All right, so this is my second, like, soapbox of the episode I wanted to talk about.
[01:03:01] Speaker B: So go ahead.
[01:03:03] Speaker A: I know. Oh, thank you. Thank you for listening and humoring me.
Only Leia would tell me to continue on. Everyone else goes. Leah and Tabby immediately just, like, zone out. They're like, just tell us how you're done.
So, okay. Critically touched said this in their review. They said they talked about how they don't like that we don't see things in this episode from Spike's point of view and that the episode fakes this out and pretends like Spike's bad again. They actually compare it to Angels turn in Enemies and how they think the episode of Enemies would benefit from angel point of view instead of from Buffy's point of view. And I disagree because I think that the writer of this of critically touched analysis is actually missing the point of both enemies and this episode. The focus was on how Angel's actions affect Buffy, and here in this episode, how Spike's actions affect angel in Enemies. Buffy's wrestling with the fact that she and Faith are similar and might be the same. And seeing angel with Faith makes her wonder if that darkness is what attracted angel to her in the first place. So here there's a very obvious parallel to Spike and Angel. And angel doesn't like what he sees in Spikes, like in his reflection in Spike, especially right now, when he literally works, is working with the enemy. And so again, this is. This goes back to what I said at the beginning. And this is probably my number one gripe with certain fans of Spike who place emphasis on his storyline over angel and. Or Buffy's. Again, he's not the main character. The stories are about Buffy and Angel. And I actually went and looked at my notes for Enemies and was actually very shocked at how well they applied to this episode. So I wrote. Writer Doug Petrie compared Angel's role in Enemies to the episode the TV show Wise Guy, which involved an undercover agent who infiltrated the mob. One of the issues that show raised was the extent to which playing such a role leads one to become the part. And that's what we see is happening here with angel and company attempting to infiltrate Wolfram and Hart to change things. But unfortunately, we're starting to see that there's this concern that they might be the ones that are being corrupted and changed through it all. And so as the concept of, like, a good vampire or a demon, like, back in Enemies, Buffy's world is becoming increasingly more complex as she continues to wrestle with the question, what exactly does separate her from Faith? And we're seeing that with Spike and Angel. Angel's going, what separates me from Spike? Spike's going, what separates me from Angel? Because those lines are getting really blurry right now. And I think in a lot of ways, Spike is going to function for angel, like. Like Faith did for Buffy. And there's a line in Enemies where Faith, when she's pretending to be good and everything, she's talking to angel and she says, for real now. I'm scared. After she killed that person or that demon, she says, scared of what I am, what I'm turning into. Cold blooded, straight up killer like you. And then angel tells her, no, no, no, that's not me. That's not who I am. And it's so interesting how Faith keeps looking for her own place in life and she feels like she's just in Buffy's shadow and how she kind of hates herself and she hates that reflection that she. And we're kind of seeing that with Spike. Spike doesn't like what he's seeing in Angel's shadow. And he also is looking for his own place. And so Spike needs to break out from underneath angel shadow, just like he needs to break out from Buffy's shadow and find his own place in the world. And so it's very interesting that right now he's stuck with that because, again, he's gonna have to work through some.
[01:06:32] Speaker B: Things quite literally as a ghost.
[01:06:35] Speaker A: Quite literally.
[01:06:35] Speaker B: I love that they do it in, like, a very literal way, but. But there's, like, a deeper meaning to it.
[01:06:42] Speaker A: So all of this kind of just brings back the narrative of, like, kind of Angelus and Angel being intertwined and how angel isn't sure if he can trust what's happening, isn't sure if he can trust himself. And so it's just. It's very interesting how we're watching these themes come back again. And I'm loving it because we're kind of going back to where we were at, like, at the beginning of the show and over on Buffy. So.
[01:07:06] Speaker B: Love that.
[01:07:08] Speaker A: Anyways, I. I love that, too. I looked up my notes. I was like, wow, this really applies to where we're at. I know.
[01:07:13] Speaker B: I think. I think the biggest thing is just like, Spike is not the main character.
[01:07:18] Speaker A: Like, he's not.
[01:07:19] Speaker B: That's just how it is. Spike and every other character are there to service the main character. And that doesn't mean that these side characters can not have their own point of view and like, their own development. But like. Like everything that happens has to have an effect on Buffy and Angel because they're the protagonists, they're the main characters. So it's like, I just don't understand why somebody would complain that there's not enough of Spike's point of view when this is not about Spike. Like, this show is not about Spike. Neither of the shows are about Spike.
Never have been, never will be. Sorry.
[01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And frankly, I don't really want them to be. Because I think that Spike does a really good job of being a supporting character and has plenty of stuff that he can do on his own. And yeah, he works great as a foil. Once he starts to step out on his own is where I think that he becomes a little bit weaker as a character.
So then Hainsley says, relax, son. I wasn't going to let anything happen to you. You're the linchpin of my plan. And Spike says, our plan. And you bloody better hold up your end of it. I'm not going to used by you. Hainsley says, yes, you are. But afterwards, I'll give you your reward, just as you asked. I'll put you back in the driver's seat of your afterlife. Control. That's all anyone really wants, isn't it? And he looks at angel while he says this. That's so interesting. Because what he's saying right there is basically what Lila was offering to them. It's what Eve said. I'll give you. You'll get rewarded. You're going to be in the driver's seat. You're going to have control and all this stuff, but you have to serve me first. And that's what. That's the whole deal with Wolfram and Hart is. And so interesting to kind of see that being offered to Spike. So then we're in the workshop. Angels lying on the same table that the girl was before Hainsley put the. When the Hensley put the demon inside of her. We find out that Hainsley is going to put Spike inside of Angel's body and reinstate the Internment Acquisitions department and give Hainsley all his stuff again. And Spike will. Basically, he'll be cosplaying as Angel, I guess. So then Angel's like, and to think I didn't trust you. And Spike says, come on, Angel. What choice did I have? Bloody exorcism. Letting you and yours banish me to Oblivion. No, thanks. Necro here is going to give me my body back after I take yours for a test drive. Wow. Is this Faith and Buffy or what? Like, seriously, body switching episode. And here's the kicker. I go in and you go off to never, never come back land. And then yours very truly will be running the show. Your cars, your fancy digs, everything, everyone I deserve will be mine. And maybe I'll have a go with Fred. She looks like a goer. And she seems to really look up to you.
That was not necessary.
Yeah.
So then Hainsley starts his chanting, plunges his hand inside Angel's belly. Spike, like, has to, like, turn his face. He's, like, laughing so hard. Hainsley reaches back towards Spike, absorbs Spike into his own body. He disappears. Hainsley's hand glows orange. Then the orange glow stops short and goes back up Painsley's arm. And angel goes, spike, would you mind? And then Hainsley pulls his hand out from Angel's body. He's like, no, angel, boys are back, baby faces off with Ainsley. Kicks him across the room. Says, can touch you now, Hainsley. Hainsley tries to control Angel's body again. Says, think you're clever? Your ghost can't control me for long. I hold the power. I rule the dead. And then reaches towards angel, but can't control him anymore. And angel says, not today. So they fight. He ultimately, angel ultimately pushes Hainsley into a nearby table, knocking him down to the ground. Hainsley gets up and engages angel in hand to hand combat. Angel throws a serving tray, cuts off Hainsley's head. And then we just see Spike's head floating above Hainsley's neck. And he's like, oh, dang it. He's like, I was just getting warmed up. And Angel's like, that was you hitting me. And Spike's like, yeah, the last bit. Hainsley's been dead since he hit the table.
[01:11:22] Speaker B: I love it. It's so petty. And I love it.
[01:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And then back in the Wolfram and Hart in their lobby, Wesley and Angel are walking together. And then Angel's catching Wesley up with everything. And Wesley's like, I see. So Spike came to you with this plan? Angel's like, yeah. Once he learned Hainsley used himself as a conduit for body transfers, our trap fell into place. Harmony Handsome file to Angel. And Wesley's like, that's a bit reckless. Well, if he's going to be sticking around, it'd be prudent of him. To share his plans with the rest of us in the future. Angel says, yeah, well, sharing is not something thing. Spike does very well. Meanwhile, Harmony, right next to them, goes, preaching to the horse's mouth.
[01:12:00] Speaker B: Harmony, respect yourself.
[01:12:03] Speaker A: They just like stare at her and then they just like walk away.
Poor Harmony. Seriously, I understood you perfectly, Harmony, you.
[01:12:12] Speaker B: Deserve so much better. Harmony, forget about that scrub.
[01:12:15] Speaker A: Literally.
So in the science lab, Fred's dress is so freaking cute. I love the way that she's dressing. It's so much more mature and like professional.
[01:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, she looks really like very like. She looks more grown up this season.
[01:12:30] Speaker A: Yes. And I really like it for it.
[01:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:33] Speaker A: So she gets into her office, is startled by Spike just staring out the window. She asks if she can help him and he's like, you're the smart one, aren't you? The go to girl who knows all about this ghost mumbo jumbo. And then she's like, well, you know, Wesley's the occult expert, he's trained as a watcher. And Spike goes, yeah, but you're the science queen. And he says, you figure things out. And she says, is yes. Is there something? And he goes, I'm slipping. And this is like, I think the first time we've seen Spike be vulnerable.
[01:13:01] Speaker B: Scared even this season.
[01:13:03] Speaker A: Yeah, scared. He says, don't want to go. But it's like the ground underneath me is splitting open and my legs are straddling both sides of this bloody chasm. It's getting wider, pulling me in. And then Fred says, is that's what happens when you vanish? And he says, I know what's down there where it's trying to take me. And it's not the place heroes go, not by a bloody long shot. It's the other one, full of fire and torment. And it's happening and I'm terrified.
[01:13:27] Speaker B: Help me, girl.
[01:13:29] Speaker A: Where else do you go? Like, yeah, but there's some actual fear there and there's actual gravity. And I'm just like, you know what? I am on board with this. I don't like, I'm not like, woohoo. Spike's scared, but also like, I just appreciate a little bit more of a serious approach to something that should be taken seriously. You hurt people, you did awful things. You need to face up to that and atone for it.
[01:13:55] Speaker B: And one act doesn't make you a hero. I wouldn't say that Spike is a hero, to be honest, at this point in the show, I wouldn't call him a hero whatsoever.
[01:14:07] Speaker A: Not champion. Non champion for you.
[01:14:10] Speaker B: No, he's not. He's not a champion yet, but we will see. I think he deserves the chance to be a champion.
[01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:17] Speaker B: And I think that he can rise to the occasion, but I don't think that he has thus far, to be honest.
[01:14:24] Speaker A: Fair enough.
[01:14:25] Speaker B: In my opinion. But I have my opinion. I have hope for my opinion.
[01:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm not gonna barbecue you for your opinion. Someone else might. But, you know, that's okay. We were recording an episode the other day, and Leah said something and then she stopped. She goes, okay. No one said any. Send Sarah any angry DMs or emails. I was just joking, okay? Because people keep emailing me stuff. Leah said this.
Nobody email me over Leia's opinions. Nobody email Leia over Leia's opinions.
[01:14:56] Speaker B: If you email us something about our opinions, we just won't respond.
[01:15:02] Speaker A: We just won't respond. No, we'll respond. We ask people every single time, so let us know your thoughts. And then when they send us our thoughts, we're like, stop sending us your thoughts.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: Please be nice to us. We're just.
[01:15:13] Speaker A: Be kind.
[01:15:14] Speaker B: We're just girls.
[01:15:16] Speaker A: We just. We're just baby. And if you disagree, that's okay. Yeah, just a baby.
[01:15:20] Speaker B: I'm just a baby. Be nice to me.
[01:15:22] Speaker A: That was. That was a great second episode. I love it. I'm enjoying this season so much. There's just so much to talk about too. So good. It's so good. And it's fun.
[01:15:33] Speaker B: And like, Angel. Angel feels like himself again, and I love it. And, like, I don't know. I think some of the criticism that I hear about this season is, like, Angel's, like, so depressed, but I don't see him as being depressed. I see him as being like, yes, there is some element of depression, but it's like old angel again, where, like, he's actually thinking about his inner thoughts again. Like, he's.
[01:16:00] Speaker A: He's like, there's thoughts in his head now. Yeah. He didn't used to have thoughts in his head in season three and four. It was.
[01:16:07] Speaker B: It was literally just no thoughts. Head empty.
[01:16:09] Speaker A: Do I. What? I feel this.
[01:16:11] Speaker B: So I just go do things happening around me. Yeah, Like. Like he wasn't really. Nothing was happening to him now.
[01:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree for sure. And I like that he's shirtless again. That's how we know we're back to, like, the status quo back, baby.
[01:16:28] Speaker B: Shirtless. Buttons are coming. Buttons are unbuttoning.
[01:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:16:34] Speaker B: Every button dumping off.
[01:16:36] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:16:37] Speaker B: We're seeing, you know, the slicked back hair.
Hopefully some full frontal nudity. I'm just kidding.
[01:16:47] Speaker A: Okay, this is not hbo. Let's. Let's get our responses here.
[01:16:53] Speaker B: I hope we get to have some HBO sex on this show.
[01:16:56] Speaker A: Shout out.
[01:16:57] Speaker B: Shout out to Brad. Max.
[01:16:58] Speaker A: Max. Brad. That was for you. Yes. Yes. Yes.
All right, we need to end this before Leia starts frothing at the moment. Mouth.
No. Thank you guys for listening. We hope you guys enjoyed this. Yeah, too late. She already is. I'm shutting this down now, and we will see you guys next time. Bye.
[01:17:21] Speaker B: Be nice to us.
[01:17:22] Speaker A: Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast, and you can email us at Investigating angel podcast gmail.com.
