Show Notes
The gang learns that the existence of two living vampire heroes with souls has created chaos in the world; the history of Angel and Spike's relationship with Drusilla is played out in flashbacks.Â
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys, welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode eight, Destiny, written by David Fury and Stephen. Tonight directed by Skip School nick and aired November 19, 2003.
Who boy, Leia boy.
SHE CHUCKLES EVILLY this is the episode, is it not?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: This is the episode for sure.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: This is kind of the episode. Like, we've tried really hard. I mean, obviously you guys have heard our thoughts on Spike, and then we've also refrained from not having thoughts on Spike, given, you know, the fact that this. He wasn't on the show. And we've also been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But this is the episode where, and I was just telling you before we started recording, we try not to compare these two characters, but because a lot of times when they are compared, it's in instances where we're talking about one specific character and there's no relevance in bringing up the other character. But in this particular episode, I think this is one of the only times maybe there'll be more later on in the season. But so far, this is kind of the episode where the show actually invites you to compare and contrast the two characters.
So who would I be if I did not do my job as a podcaster and, you know, just actually, like, sit down and. And do what the episode invites me to do? So buckle up, guys. I've got lots of things to say.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: I have, like, PTSD from this discussion. Like, I just.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: I can't. And we haven't even discussed anything yet. Yeah, I think. And lest anyone think that I'm, like, just hammering Spike just because, you know, I don't like him and Angel's gonna get away scot free. I will say my one disappointment for this episode is it didn't really tell me anything new about angel that I didn't already know, that the show hasn't already been discussing this entire season. And I was really going into it looking for things about Spike that would kind of reflect angel, because I was like, I kind of already know where I'm. I'm at with Spike, and I feel like this episode reinforced that. The thing is, is that I really did not find a.
What Spike was saying to be accurate about angel or even the things that the show was showing in the flashbacks and everything to reveal anything super, like eye opening or to add to Angel's character. I was kind of like, I already know this stuff. And so I was really disappointed because I wanted to see, like, the stuff that Spike said to be kind of accurate. Be like, oh, that's. That's a really good point. Yeah, angel should actually reflect on that. I was waiting for it, and there really wasn't anything. I think there is, if anything, I like that Spike wins in the end because, yeah, he does have more conviction at this point, I guess you could say conviction.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: But that says something about Angel.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that does say something about angel, but that's also something we knew, right. I think, if anything, it does something for angel and kind of pushing him to the next step, I think. But I. I didn't really find a lot of the stuff that they were writing to be super compelling in that regard. There was mostly just a lot of revelations about Spike. And again, it's not anything that I didn't know. It just was more satisfying to be like, hey, this is stuff I've observed. And the show is now actually calling it out for what it is, 100%.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: But, yeah, in my head, I just feel like the way this episode is talked about in fan discourse, I was expecting more flashbacks for some reason.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: I don't know if you felt the same way, but I was expecting more flashbacks that show more of their relationship. But really there was only the three. Right. And they were pretty straightforward. It was nothing.
It was nothing that was there to back up what Spike was saying to angel during the fight is what I found. Whereas going into the episode, I was expecting, like you said, I was kind of looking for certain things in the flashbacks or in their history to kind of be able to take Spike's side on it. Maybe to be like, spike is right in saying this, but I was like.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: It mostly just reinforced the way that we've always viewed Angelus. Yeah.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And the way I've always viewed Spike.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And so many ways, in a lot.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Of ways, it felt like the final puzzle piece for what we've been piecing together with their dynamic, with all the flashbacks in Full for Love and in Darla. And I can't remember what other flashbacks there are of them, but it kind of made sense with a lot of stuff we know, with their dynamic in Becoming or in season two of Buffy and all that stuff. And so. But it was also just more like, okay, yeah, this logically makes sense. Not anything that was groundbreaking. And so in that. In that regard, I was just a bit disappointed because I do want to be Balanced. And I do want to come at it from, like, I also want to see angel challenged and stuff. And. But apart from him losing the cup, I was mostly just like, I still think angel won the episode. Honestly, guys.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, Spike didn't win. I don't know if angel won.
I just think Spike, I guess they both kind of lost, didn't win. And I think the thing about Spike is that I understand that he is, like, an ensouled being now in a different person. And a lot of his behavior in this episode, I view as projection 100%.
I view it as Spike acting out and having a meltdown pretty much. And I don't really believe that everything that he's saying is true. I don't think he believes that everything he's saying is true. And maybe that's because I know what's going to happen later on in this season and, like, what's coming next for him. I don't know if that influences my view of it, but a lot of what Spike is saying, I just look at it and I'm like, you're just a child throwing a meltdown, like, throwing a tantrum. And I don't believe that you believe all of the stuff that you're saying to Angel. I think that he's projecting onto angel, which Spike is notorious for doing, historically and consistently.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep, I agree.
All right, so, although credited, Alexis Denisov does not appear in this episode. And this was due to his wedding to Allison Hannigan at the time of filming.
This is the only episode after he made his first angel appearance, imparting gifts in which he does not appear. It's really funny because every time I. I remember that he's, you know, getting married to Alison Hannigan at this point. I always remember that that was the time. We'll talk about it later. But when Joss Whedon, who attended the wedding, approached him, and Amy Acker, who was at the wedding with the script for A Hole in the World.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Oh, my God, yes.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Which I was like, joss, who does that?
[00:07:27] Speaker B: A sick fuck, that's who.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So that just always cracks me up whenever I think about that. I'm like, imagine it's your wedding. And Joss is like, hey, Alexis, I know you just got married, and it's there, like, all cool and exciting, but I have this really, really cool script I want you to see.
Anyway, we'll revisit that later on in season five. Yes. I can't. Can't. Well, I was gonna say what's the opposite.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: It can't come.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Get there. Not soon enough. I don't know how to word that.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Anyway. Yes. Okay.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: You know what I mean? I hope it doesn't get here that fast. There you go. So eloquent. Anyway, all right, so Joss Whedon says the battle between angel and Spike in this episode is the highlight of the final season. The episode is notable for its large scale battle between the two vampires as well as for being the focus of an indecency complaint by the Parents Television Council for sexual situations. They filed a complaint against a WB station for the flashback sex scene in which Angel's hips can be seen moving back and forth. The PTC was also disturbed by the heavy breathing in an earlier scene between. They said Darla and Drew, but I think they meant Spike in Harmony.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Spike and Harmony.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Because Darla and Drew are not in this episode. But yeah, heavy breathing in an earlier scene between Spike and Harmony. However, the Federal Communication Commission, fcc later ruled that the scene was not indecent as it was brief, contained no nudity, and was not sufficiently graphic or explicit to render the program patently offensive.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: So, damn, I guess it's not upn. This is still the wb.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Yeah, seriously.
I keep forgetting that we're not on upn, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Christian Cain returns as Lindsay, which I always forget about, and I'm very excited. We had so much fun with him in the first two seasons. I wonder if his truck is back, because, you know, we all know he's got tattoos now.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Lindsay, he doesn't have a truck anymore.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: He looks a lot hotter with tattoos. My gosh. And his hair is still long. Yeah, that looks great.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah, but he's hooking up with Eve and that's.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: That does take him down on the hotness scale for me for sure.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Come on, man.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Now, now, Now I'm realizing what that look was at the end of Life of the party when she hooked up with angel and then she realized she told Lindsay.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Oh, no. He was definitely punching the air, screaming, crying, throwing up, shitting, like just losing.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: His entire mind there before I did.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: No, again.
Now, Eve. Oh, no.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Oh, no. I hope she did tell him because if she doesn't, he's gonna be devastated.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: He's gonna try to run angel over again with his truck. Yeah, Kicker boots.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Shit. Kicker boots. Yeah. I wish they had had, like the boots next to the door while she was like, taking off her clothes and stuff. So we had like a little hint, little. Little pan pass a little Picture of a truck on the dresser.
He's like, gotta make this hotel.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: And then a picture of Darla right next to it. That's what would be on.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: It'd be a picture of the truck running over angel with Darla smiling in the truck with Lindsay. That's what it would be. Yeah.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Photoshop.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: See how revitalized we are with just Lindsay coming back? This is great.
Oh, yeah. So Sarah Thompson, who plays oh, describes the last scene. I got like, cut off in the middle because we got really excited. Lindsay's back. Sarah described the final season as a secret scene that didn't appear in the original script. She says, I heard rumors there was going to be a big reveal, but I didn't know what was going to happen. David Boreanas was like, maybe you're going to turn out to be a lizard.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Like Buffy season one, praying mantis sort of thing.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: I don't know. No, more like the mayor, maybe he turns into a giant snake. Eve suddenly just turns into a giant lizard.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: A lizard. David Boreanas has, like, one memory from Buffy, and it's the mayor turning into a giant snake.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: David Boreanas really just wants Eve to be gone.
She received the scene in an envelope marked Confidential shortly before filming with orders not to reveal Cain's return. So I wonder if she knew and nobody el did until it aired.
Yeah, I love that. Especially for someone who work a minor character.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: She probably was like, oh, gosh, I'm not getting killed off. All right, cool. I have longevity. They're bringing Lindsay back.
So we have Destiny, the title, which could mean so many different things. And I think it does. You know, the Shan Shu mortality, Buffy, redemption, forgiveness. This episode deals with Spike's twisted view of destiny and how he needs to figure out his destiny for himself. And part of that comes from figuring out who he is and what he wants. Apart from all the people and objects and ideas that he has idolized in the past. This has basically been his Persona for the entire time he's been on the show. He's been defined by the women that he loves or is obsessed with. And so this is the show.
I won't say breaking away from that because I theorize that the show is taking and critically touched. I think talks about this too. The show is actually taking Spike's obsession, idealization of these women and is actually putting that on angel now because angel has a soul. And he's essentially, instead of co opting Buffy's mission and her, you know, trying to slay and all that. Stuff in season five. In season six, this is Spike now trying to co opt Angel's life because he wants the destiny that Angel's going after. And I think this episode really does hem like hammer that home. Especially because we are left at the end of the episode questioning and Spike pretty much says it explicitly. Do you want Angel's destiny because you want the destiny for itself, or do you just want it so that angel doesn't have it? You know, so critically touched, says Spike's early notion that Drusilla is his destiny makes complete sense considering that his personality as a human was that of a socially removed wannabe poet and closet romantic.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: That's about the only negative thing they say about him the entire time. I was getting very heated reading there.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Well, I was gonna add also a man who's just completely defined by the women that he like in his life that he's obsessed with. And I call it obsession because that's what is obsession. He feels toward women. It's obsession.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Yep. They say although William's romantic notions are more understandable than Angelus's slow burning psychological torture, they're not necessarily that much better. There's a certain possessive quality to labeling another person as your destiny, as if they belong to you and they are meant for only you. Not only is this belittling to Drusilla in this instance, but it's actually quite self belittling as well that William so lacks self awareness and self confidence that he requires another person to make him worthwhile. I totally agree. And this is. You guys are going to hear this as we talk. Becoming Buffy talks about Buffy and Spike in season seven. But this is my major frustration with season seven and the spuffy relationship is you have them one pushing the romantic relationship and having it so intertwined with Spike's redemption without any foresight for foresight on the writers end where they're thinking, how have we presented and portrayed Spike for four seasons now in that he's obsessed with these women? Now we're going to put him in yet another relationship while he's trying to actively earn his redemption and not see that as just more of the same. And then also the fact that they constantly are having Buffy say, oh, I trust him. Oh, instinctually I know he's a good person. But also in the same breath say, but I don't. You don't know who you are, Spike, because you've never had the chance to test yourself. And it's like you don't know if he's a good person at this point, just because he has a soul doesn't mean he's good. Warren had a soul. Warren wasn't a good person. And so I really love that in this season, they are hammering home the fact that we do not know who Spike is. Spike does not know who he is. He saved the world once. That doesn't make him a hero or a good person. That just means that he has the potential to get there. But there needs to be. As we know, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And we know that redemption takes time. And it's consistent, constant fighting. And there's no guarantee at the end, you know, But I think.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: I think a big part of it, too, with Spike's whole Persona and, like, what motivates him. I don't know if it's a product of its time, where men who are portrayed as having feelings tend to garner more sympathy from an audience.
And I think based on some of the discourse that I see surrounding Spike, a lot of people feel sorry for him. They feel sorry that he can't get the woman that he wants, whichever one it is, out of the bunch that he is attached to. They feel sorry for him. I find that often a lot of people really care about the woman's point of view. They are more so focused on Spike. They're more focused on the fact that he's in pain because he can't have what he wants. And I think the show does present him that way. The show is asking you to almost feel sorry for him. And I think James Marsters obviously delivers a really emotional and, like, great performance that makes certain people feel sorry for him because he's doing it that way. Certain people, I mean, it just is what it is. I mean, no. And that's the thing. Think that's where the disconnect is for me. And that's why I can't understand why people would feel sorry for Spike or William or whatever iteration of him is on screen. Because I am looking at it from, like, the woman's pov.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Or the person that he's imposing his affections onto. And for me, William is weak. And that's not to say that having emotions is weak, because it's not. But I think the way the show presents it through Spike, it shows to me that he's a weak willed person and he's somebody who doesn't have a personality. And he's someone who constantly reinvents himself and wears a Persona because he's so insecure. And I don't feel sorry for him because he Uses other people to make himself feel better and he gets obsessive with other people. And he projects his views of the world, which are very self centered, onto other people who are women, and expects them to accept him and to give him what he wants. And that's why I can't feel sorry for Spike, but. Sorry, my point in all this.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: My point in all this is this show wants you to feel sorry for him. And I think a lot of people do. And I don't necessarily blame them because a lot of moving parts go into that, including the writing, including the dialogue, including framing him as the hopeless romantic who can never find or get what he wants.
Yeah, I think it just depends on how invested you are in feeling sorry for Spike.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: I actually, I don't think this episode wants you to feel sorry for Spike, which is really interesting because I went into it thinking that that's what they wanted. And I think they're actually subtly undermining him. In several instances, which I think is very interesting.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: I felt like they were doing both. I felt like in a lot of ways they were asking you to feel sorry for him. But I think ultimately they are totally undermining him.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: In everything that he's.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: I would say there's instances, I think, particularly with Angelus and his dynamic, but I think that's more. Because they're trying to. That's about all they have on angel in this episode. That's the only sense of nuance that you could have. Because we don't see angel really not. We don't see angel doing that and having that kind of dynamic with Spike as toxic. Well, we do see a bit of that dynamic, but it's not as toxic now. And it's not. I'm going to do that because I love evil kind of thing. It's more of like this guy just irritates me.
But yeah, I'm. Yeah. And I'm excited to talk about that. It's. It's so funny just listening to you to talk. I was cracking up because when I was watching the episode last night, I. So at a certain point I was like pausing the episode and I was. I pulled my husband in and I was like, Andrew, like, you have to watch this look so good or like, listen to this part or whatever. And Andrew just like sighed and he goes, he's such a beta male.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he is.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: And I was like, yeah, he really, really is. Like, he's like, you could just. And we were not even watching the Angelus and William scene. It was like the fight at the very end, when they were talking, and Angel's like, it's just so obvious that he's like a little Chihuahua who feels the need to bark louder than the big dog because he feels inferior.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: What Spike is.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: That's all I think about. Yeah.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: And so that final percent, that's what it felt like. And I. I felt like the writers did a very, very good job of doing their best to make Spike stand up to angel and be compelling in a certain extent. But at the end of the day, they also did a great job of undermining him as well. Because ultimately, what the show is setting up is the fact that Spike has not taken accountability for his past. And Spike does not seem to really understand the impact of the sins that he has done, basically. I'm not going to say that he's not. I think he is sorry to a certain extent, but I don't think he has fully realized how awful he was. And this episode proves that he's still blaming other people for his mistakes, which is why the show is still undermining.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Him, along with the fact that the entire thing was just a big ruse and a fake and it was just Mountain Dew at the very end. Yeah, that was a nice touch.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: That was hilarious.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: We should probably talk about the episode.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: I know. Sorry. The last thing I was going to say is we're back to, like, the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Metaphors and references. We talked about that in Awakening with the chalice and the cup. Metaphor and imagery, the night imagery, the cup of Christ's blood that will redeem us. The reversal of immortality and healing in the cup and how it grants mortality here and how that. That's kind of their destiny.
The one thing I will say again about angel is, you know, he's been burned several times on his quest for forgiveness and redemption. He now doesn't believe he has a destiny, and so he's lost his conviction and purpose.
Yeah. So once again, and I'm. We're. I'm going to reiterate this, and we kind of said this in Hellbound. How you view this episode, how you view Spike and Angel in this episode, is going to be directly related to how you view angel and sa. Spike and also Spike's growth, or lack of, in Buffy Season seven. So all that to say, let's jump into it. All right. So we start off in a Victorian Arrow hotel in England, 1880. There's that theme again in minor. It's Darla's theme. Man and woman can be heard giggling on the Other side of the lobby doors, William and Drusilla come in. And it's so interesting because this entire exchange, you can just tell the way that Juliet Landau and James Masters play it. Drusilla is kind of just like tolerating him. And she only glances at him once. Other than that, she's kind of looking away and distracted. And he is just completely besotted with her. And I really liked how they played that.
Juliet Landau says, this is a particularly fun episode. There are so many different colors and dimensions. Even though Spike and I are the villains and we are evil, there always has been this. This very sweet love story between us. And I was like, okay, Juliet, okay. What's sweet about this episode between you guys? I don't get it.
Maybe on his end, but not on yours. But even then he's like, obsessive, so.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Well, I think the thing with Drusilla and Spike is that they do share affection for each other, but I think it's for selfish reasons. She made him because Angelus's attentions were on Darla and she wanted a mate of her own, you know, and then he is obsessed with her because he wants approval from a woman you know so well. And that's directly tied to his identity. Yeah, right.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: He's searching for destiny, basically searching for his own identity. And when you are insecure with yourself and you are not settled in who you are, you're going to look for that in other people. And that's what he's doing.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: So we see that there's middle aged corpses sitting on the sofa and they used to be the ambassadors. And Drusilla talks about how Angelus took him for dinner. William's like, who's Angelus? And all of a sudden we see bum, bum Angelus, like, lurking in the shadows. That was excellent. Oh, it was so good. I know.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: I was like, I just know. David Boreadas was like, not another flashback. No.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Was screaming inside. He was like, please, not anymore.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: I thought we were done with flashbacks.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: We didn't do the own show, so I don't have to do this shit anymore.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: He's like, all right, I'll do the flashbacks. As long as I get another scene where I'm in my office and all I have to do is watch hockey. Okay.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: What's in his contract now? It's just like, what is it?
Samuel Jackson, where he has, like, for this many days that he's on set, he has to have like a certain amount of hours on a golf course or Something paid by the studio. I know, right?
[00:25:27] Speaker B: I love that for him.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Sitting pretty.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: So then, interesting that Drusilla has been calling William Willie, her sweet Willie. And then as soon as William sees Angelus, he's like, it's William. But, like, right from the get go, you get this idea that, like, oh, he is trying to measure up to this guy. He feels insecure. Yeah. And so then Drusilla's like, where's Darla? I want Darla to see William, like, presenting, you know, her new boyfriend to her parents. And Jealous is like, darlin, I had a little spat. Her precious master sent for her. You know, Darla, master's pet. Which is a. Again, a really great setup because there's a chip under Angelus's, like, under his skin. The fact that the master can just call Darla and she goes. And I think there is a little bit of resentment for what he perceives Drusilla and Spike to have for each other, because I think there's a little bit of. I wanted Darla to be as infatuated with me as I am to her.
And then also, I like that there's a little bit of parallels to. Was it the Darla episode where we had Angelus being, like, the interloper and going in and stealing Darla from the master? And here we kind of have William coming in as an interloper, and it's like the cycle's continuing. So Angelus is like, I'm getting on top of this now before he does what I did to the master, basically.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. But that's so true.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: I think there's a very clear parallel here, which I kind of liked because that says a lot about, like, their dynamic and why Angelus is so antagonistic to William.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: So then he's like, this shouldn't spoil our fun here. And then he looks at William, kind of checks him out, and he goes, another rooster in the hen house to Drusilla is like, you're not cross with me, are you? And jealous is like, cross. And then he grabs William's arm and holds it out into a ray of sunlight, beaming through the closed curtains as, like, his arm starts to smoke. He goes, do you have any idea what it's like having nothing but women as travel companions night in and night out? William yanks his hand away and is like, touch me again. And Angela's like, don't mistake me. I do love the ladies. It's just lately I've been wondering. And then he sticks his own fist into the sunlight and goes, what it'd be like to share the slaughter of innocence with another man.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: This is sexually charged. Me thinks you thinks Ya thinks.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: This is also like.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: He's like, does that make me some kind of deviant?
[00:27:58] Speaker A: And you're like, I mean, I think what makes you deviant is you putting your hand in the sunlight as it's sizzling or another man's hand. Like, that's pretty deviant.
I think this is also interesting, too, because if you think back to fool for Love, you have that moment where the writers intentionally wrote between Spike and Angelus to be homoerotic, specifically from the female gaze. So there is that, you know, put in here.
So then, you know, he obviously is challenging Spike in his manhood. So Spike stares him down, puts his own hand into the light and barely holds it there. And then Angela starts to laugh, kind of like a. Oh, ha, ha, ha. I was just kidding. But really, it was a test to see how far that Spike was gonna go. And you can tell. Angelus is like, hang on. You desperately want my approval. I can work with this. And I think that in that moment, Angelus was like, all right, I'm not gonna just kill you. I'm actually gonna toy with you. You and me, we're gonna be the best friends.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: And I love him.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: He's just fun to have him on the screen and actually be Angelous. Not the stupid thing that was in season four, you know?
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so true.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: This is Angelus. I reject the other thing.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: And this makes so much sense. And this is what vampires do. And I want to reiterate that, because Spike is a vampire now, or William or whatever the hell Willy he's going by in this episode. He's a vampire. He is evil. Let's remember that.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Well, he just came back from killing his mom, and then his mom coming. Like that just happened.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah, he's evil.
[00:29:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Which we will circle back around to that.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: We'll circle back.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll circle back to that.
I'm like, we'll get there. All right. So we cut from you and me. We're gonna be the best friends, you know? Q. What is it, Fox and the Hound, when you're the best of friends, when you paddle around forever, they hold hand skipping through, you know, Field of Daisies.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: That's totally them. Honestly, Angel.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Get the hell away from me, Spike. Would that I could, you big ape.
And I was like, ah, sweet music to my ears.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: I love this.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: They bring out the worst in each other. And it's so fun. It's just so funny. Entertaining.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's another thing. Sorry, I just want to add that I just like your comment. I mean, we've said this over and over again, but they bring out the worst in each other. And that's why this episode makes sense. This is why this episode is not regression.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: For Spike or Angel, it makes sense because this is how they react to each other. It's shown historically that this is how they are with each other. And sometimes when you have somebody in your life that brings out the worst in you, it brings out parts of you that aren't necessarily who you are at this point. It's who you were at the point in your life when you had, like, issues with this person. Right. And I think this episode does a really good job of showing that. So my point being, if this episode paints Spike or Angel in a bad light, that doesn't mean that they are bad people in general or in this point in time.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Right, Right. Well, and there's a point that I will get to that's coming up where I think there's a specific thing that's being triggered this episode that the. The show is trying to hammer home. And it relates directly with the people with the blood in their eyes. Because I've heard a lot of people say, well, that's a pointless side quest. Like, what is the point? There's actually a purpose for it in this episode.
So then Angel's like, you're not getting an office to Spike Spikes. Like, you selfish. The rest of you lot get to go home for their nice and cozy's. Me, I got a nest in somebody else's roost. Ooh, another in the hen house. So Spike is feeling how angel felt like an invasion. And again, I like those little nuances. It's not bleeding. Right. And then angel and Harmony, who looks stunning this episode, she has a very 60s vibe. It was kind of reminding me of Sabrina Carpenter in her hair and, like, her fitness. Yeah. Oh, she would love Sabrina Carpenter.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: Could you imagine?
[00:32:16] Speaker A: I need to make, like, a playlist for each of these characters. Like, what they would be listening to if they were around right now. You know, like Lauren Chapel, Roan, then Harmony. Sabrina Carpenter. Actually, both Lauren and Harmony would be sending Rex to each other. That's what they.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: 1000% Lady Gaga would be on there, too.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yes, yes. I. And then I'm trying to think Angel's.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Listening to Hozier 1000% on repeat. Oh, he told. Let's be honest.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: That's. That's so funny. He's like, singing, Take Me to Church.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Irish Catholic. It makes so much sense.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: That really, really does. That's hilarious.
So angel and Harmony are looking at each other while Spike's moaning. And they, like. Angel makes, like, that face at Harmony. Like, here he goes again. He's like, you don't work here. You haunt this place and annoy me. That's all Spike says. Job well done. A. At least give me Wesley's office. I mean, since he's gone, we learned that he's on a leave of absence. And then Spike's like, yeah, right, Though he killed. Thought he killed his bloody father. Try staking your mother when she's coming on to you.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: And then Harmony's like, that makes so much sense, right?
[00:33:28] Speaker A: Harmony's like, I'm learning so much today.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: I'm like, girl, you don't even know the half of it.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: This has got to be so therapeutic for Harmony. Yeah, okay, But I just.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: She, like, loses all respect for herself and sleeps with him.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I know. She was doing so well. I was like, harmony, no, no, don't. But she is a vampire, so, again, purpose.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: We have to remember that.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: But I do want to say, everyone always is like, oh, man. Poor Spike. All this stuff.
Why did Spike's mom come on to him? May I remind you that Spike killed her and changed her into a vampire? Spike is not a victim in this situation.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: I think a lot of people see it as, like, an act of mercy because his mom was dying.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: But, no, it's not.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: It turned her into a demon.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: Which is not an act of mercy, actually. He turned into a monster for selfish reasons because he couldn't let go of her and he wanted to have her for himself.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yep. I hate that episode.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: And she turned on him. And then he killed her again for real this. This time.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Oh, poor Spike. That must have been so hard for him.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: Poor Spiky.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: You know, it was really hard having to watch that. Just.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: I'm so glad I didn't have to watch it.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I have it coming up, and I'm just really, really dreading it.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: I'm sorry.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: That is my single most hated episode in the entire Buffy verse.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that episode is really infuriating. I am Team Robin forever and ever.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: Because Woodside is Giles and Robin for that episode.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: And I. I will be on his team in any way, anywhere. I will follow him to the end.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Anywhere. I will follow you. Anyway. Got a lot of songs stuck in my head. Sorry. Moving on. Okay, so I mentioned earlier, so Critically touched, really. I was very, very frustrated with their review because I felt like they missed a big portion of the episode. But also, and we've talked about this before, specifically in Hellbound, they view season five as a regression of Spike's character from how he was on season seven of Buffy. And I'm going to read a little portion of what they have written because.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: I do have a point.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: It probably will. But it's okay. I have a great counter. So they said. For all the great writing Spike gets during the big fight, it's quite surprising how poor it is earlier in the episode. Let's start with Spike continuing to holler out that he staked his mother while she was trying to shag him. All of that history was incredibly personal and private to him in Buffy season seven. Yet the writers have him throwing it around here on angel like it's the most casual thing in the world. This is just poor characterization. An extension of my distaste with that line is Spike's behavior shortly after becoming corporeal again. Within seconds of this, Spike almost forces Harmony into having sex with him. Would pre soul Spike do this? Sure, I can see it. Sure, I could see it after we have a whole episode devoted to.
Anyway, I digress. But post Soul Spike. Post Soul Spike. It's really hard sell. Especially considering the fact that Buffy's still out there and doesn't even know he's not all fried up. After everything we saw out of Spike and Buffy season seven, the quiet humbleness. This behavior comes across as really forced, quite humbleness where we just talked about conversations with or Eliza. My parents told me this is a problem that pops up occasionally in season five where the writers just don't seem to have a consistent grasp on how to write an unsold Spike. There wasn't a second of Buffy season seven where I didn't see and feel the weight of Spike's soul and how that impacted his entire demeanor. Too often Spike is shortchanged his depth in exchange for comedy here in season five, some of which is admittedly quite funny, but it's frankly not the sort of trait that makes me all that happy. So here's my thing. They also talk a lot about how they felt like the bloody eyes. And that whole thing that happens here in Wolfram and Hart adds nothing to the episode is pointless. All that stuff. But here's the thing. The bloody eyes is happening to these people as a result of their ID taking over, which I think Eve actually mentions later on the episode. And it's shows to represent Where Spike is at and what he is doing this episode and has been doing for his entire time on these shows. He is primarily driven by his id, as was Angelus. And to some degree is what is driving angel in this episode. Spike immediately, as soon as he finds out he's corporeal, starts feeding his desires and sticks it to angel as soon as he's corporeal. And if we've learned anything from Buffy, we know that a person cannot thoughtfully take control of their life if they are controlled by their desires. He reverts immediately back to the Spike before he was chipped and the whole like they're making a direct correlation to. Spike is no longer restrained by these things. He goes back to what is natural to him because he hasn't had time to exercise and use anything other than his id. Because we don't know who Spike is. And Spike himself doesn't know who he is. He is because he hasn't had the opportunity and the chance to make those decisions. So he reverts right back to his old self. And so this season is, or the season this episode is really about Spike's ID coming to play. And it kind of feeds into Angel's own id. And then that's what that whole fight is about. And so a lot of the things that Spike is saying is a response to. To his impulses that he's honed for a hundred plus years. And I think that that's super important.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: I think the thing that's so hard for me to look past, and I think this is where we fundamentally disagree with critically touched, is that their comment about in season seven, they felt like they could feel the weight of Spike. So throughout the entire season, I just. I don't see that anywhere because I don't think the season allowed Spike a moment to not be a victim of some external force for him to be able to face his own soul having self. Yes, it was constantly. Spike is being haunted by the first. Spike is being possessed by or being manipulated by the first to kill people. His chip is being triggered. This is happening. He's kidnapped. There was just always something going on where Spike was being victimized by an external force. And he never once. There was never ever a story where we saw into Spike's like own mind regarding his soul. Except for lies my parents told me in which he does not look good in that episode either.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: No, yeah, he's taking gleeful malevolence in.
[00:40:15] Speaker B: That is the only episode.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: That's the only episode in season seven where you actually See the weight of Spike's soul, where you see what an insult Spike would react or how he would react to his past coming to bite him in the gas.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Entitlement there.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: Yes. And this is the thing that I just don't get. When they say that they could feel the weight of his soul and his repentance and how he is seeking atonement and stuff in season seven. Because it's just. It's not there. It's a delusion.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: There's always something. They're restraining him, too. Yeah, totally. And that. And it's. It sucks not to always just bring this back to season seven of Buffy, but it sucks because it undermines a lot of what Buffy is saying. And it makes Buffy look foolish.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah, in a way, it does. And, like, from Buffy's point of view, I can kind of see it from her point of view in terms of her viewing the soul as something really important. I can see that from Buffy. But I think the problem with Buffy's actions in season seven is that she sacrifices, like, she puts people's safety at risk in order to put Spike first. And that is irresponsible.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: There's a difference between her having core values and core beliefs about soul versus unsold and whatever and, like, wanting to believe in Spike. But I think it's just her choices when it came to Spike became really irresponsible and it stopped making sense why she was acting the way that she is. Not that her belief that he could be a good person with a soul is wrong, because that's a core belief of Buffy's.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: But you need to see who he is before you go. All right, cool. Because again, I will point back to Warren forever and ever. Warren had a soul, still chose evil, still chose bad. And there's many times that Buffy justifies her decisions to have Spike around the potentials while they don't know what the trigger is and all that stuff. Like, to unchip Spike because he has a soul now. And it's like. But you've actively said you don't know who he is or what kind of man he is or what he's even going to choose. So let's give it a minute, you know? But yeah.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: Or at least have, like, move in a way that is, first of all, putting. Not putting people at risk. And second of all response, be responsible as a leader. I think that's the biggest problem for me is she does. She makes a lot of irresponsible decisions because of and for Spike.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: In a situation where she's responsible for a lot of people in her house.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: She makes him her first priority and her first responsibility when truly it's to the potentials in the Slayer line. Yeah.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: On top of the fact that it's not her responsibility to do that for Spike, Especially after he tried to rape her.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: It just layers a whole nother. Yeah.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I know. I'm mired in it, man. It's just getting worse and worse. Okay.
So then Spike irritatedly walks off, and it was like, that was a long time ago. She wasn't herself. And then Harmony's like, you have a package. It's addressed to you. And so then he goes over, and they don't. It doesn't say who it is, who it's from, that it's kind of heavy. I like that. She says, it's kind of heavy. And then she opens it for him. And then all of a sudden, as she likes, like, pulls open the packaging, it releases a flash of bright white light. I like that callback to, like, you know, the spark, effulgence. Spike's been searching for meaning and purpose for destiny his entire life.
And so then he kind of is like, all right, well, that was a slap and a tickle. And she's like, there's nothing else in here. The phone starts ringing. All of a sudden, there's a screeching noise, and all the phones and stuff start going off. Spike walks, walks towards Angel's office, and ends up walking straight into the door and bouncing off of it. And then angel walks out of his office, stares at Spike on the floor, and then is like, hold on. And I'm like, guess who just became your problem? Angel. But also, I'm really excited because, like, we keep saying, let's see what kind of a man slash demon Spike really is without being held back. Finally. My gosh, finally. Also, it's very interesting that the phones are ringing, but no one is there. And they talk about being cut off from the senior partners, which is kind of a parallel to angel being cut off from the Powers that Be. And in a way, like, his destiny, his greater mission, his purpose, all that stuff. Kind of cool.
So then, you know, we resume in the lobby, and Spike's like, hey, I can feel. He starts touching Angel's chest.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: Angel, touch me.
[00:44:50] Speaker A: Touching me.
And then Spike, like, licks his lip, realizes that his nose is bleeding, which is such a callback to out of My Mind, where Buffy's like, you just licked your own nose. Blood. But I think that, again, is Also intentional, because that's an episode where both him and Riley are. They've lost the most formative parts of their identity, and they're seeking meaning and purpose through Buffy. So they go to the graveyard and try to do her job. And then that's when. That's the episode that he gets. Or he tries to get his chip removed, and then he can't. And then he realizes that he's in love with Buffy.
[00:45:24] Speaker B: And then, like, a joke that he has.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Yes. A sex dream. And then he realizes, like, Then his obsession with the Slayer shifts from blood lust to straight up lust. And, like, it shows the chip hasn't changed his nature, it's just redirected it. Which again, reinforces the idea of Spike's ID taking over in this next moment.
So then he grabs the blood from Angel. It's drinking it. Angel's like, hey, what is going on? And then gun comes back. Yeah. And Angel's like, yes, it is. That's mine. Gun comes back. Spike's, like, hugging him. Gun's like, how did this happen? Spike says, this must be that thing that I got in the mail. Don't know, don't care. But if you see whoever it is who gave it to me, give him a bloody kiss in the mouth for me. Angel's like, harmony, what is going on with the phone? She says, nobody knows. It's all over the office. Spike starts to check her out, and he's like, harmony. And I was like, girl, have some self respect.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: No, please, leave her alone.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: I know.
Scram.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Scram. Leave her alone. Spike, leave Harmonica alone. She doesn't want you.
[00:46:31] Speaker A: If Lauren were there, he would have stepped in. I don't. Yeah, anyway. Whatever. Anyway, there's other things. I have other bones to pick with everybody else.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Take her hand. And I want to be like, girl, respect yourself. This man. This man is crusty.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Respect yourself.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: Last time he showered, actually, he was just ashes. The last time that he was corporeal. He needs a bath desperately.
Anyway, angels, like, permission denied. Spikes, like, I wasn't asking.
So then he grabs Harmony, walks away, and she finally gives in. After much manipulation, they take off and.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Then take my Sarah.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: It really didn't. It didn't.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: That's a really nice skirt you're wearing. And she just smiled.
We have to remember that Harmony doesn't have a soul. And she is a vampire.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: Like, but it's also, like, I feel.
[00:47:21] Speaker B: So protective of her.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: I know. Because she's so naive. I know. That's so hard.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: He just takes advantage of her.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: He does. And even though she's a vampire, she doesn't deserve this. She really doesn't.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Because she's so mean.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Actually trying. She doesn't have a soul and she's trying.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: You know, she really is. She's trying really hard.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: Like, she is actually restraining her own impulses by working, which is really Admiral.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: Which is really admirable.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: Can you not say admirable?
Are you trying to say admirable?
Admiral. Ad.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: She's really Admiral.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Not admiral.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: We aren't at C, which is really admirable.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Anyway, now we're back in the Victorian era. We're in a coach. I was dying because I'm just imagining them filming in this. They're, like, being jostled. Bridgerton having to say, yeah.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: Are they about to have a moment.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: In the carriage we invite you to? I don't know. Watch as these young men have a passionate embrace.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: Admits the carnage of this. Dear Brides.
Whatever. I don't know. Anyway, I love speaking like Julie Andrews. Yeah, not Julie Andrews. I was gonna say Julie Rogers. Who's that? Okay.
My gosh, my brain is all over the place today. Okay, so then they're rejoicing Angelus and William at the fact that they totally broke up this lady's wedding. And, you know, we have this moment as William just keeps going over and talking about how, like, amazing Angelus is. Angelus gets, like, kind of quiet and is, like, calculating and watching him. And he's like, yeah, have a drink from the bride that I have right next to me who's still alive. And you can tell he's baiting him. He wants. He does want to bring Spike down to his level to make him feel better about the fact that Darla is not as devoted to him. And William's like, no, no, no. That's your spoils. And refuses. And he's like, no, I'm gonna go find Drusilla. And jealous is like, she's special, isn't she, our Drusilla? William's like, more than that. She brought me into this world where I was meant to be. It's like, she's my destiny. And jealous is like, yeah, she's a sweet plum. I mean, a bit dotty and brain addled. And then William defends her. Is like, she's not. It's like she's still got a bit of a child in her.
Probably two or three by now. Knocks on the carriage wall, tells the driver to stop, and then says, happy hunting. Be home before sunrise.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: I do want to say one nice thing. About William. God help me, she's like.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: Pause for a moment.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: I do want to say one nice thing, and I want to say something bad about Angelus. I think that Angelus is an. Because he did that to Drusilla. He made her that way. And I like that William views her this way in this moment. Obviously, overall, he, like, is very possessive over her. Like, there's a dark side to it. But I do appreciate, and I do think that Drusilla, like, deserves to be appreciated the way that William appreciates her. I just think his vampiric nature makes it so that it turns into an obsession as well as the human side of William that is very much desperate for acceptance from women.
But that is one thing that I will say about Spike or William or whatever.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: And I will say that I think a big part of what Angelus is doing here is that he also feels a possession over Drusilla because she is his. Is his masterpiece.
[00:51:05] Speaker A: Yes, right.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: She is the thing that he spent time breaking and putting back together in, like, the most sinister, devious way. And I think that's also what's driving him to kind of staking his territory when it comes to William.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. 100 agree. Yeah, I agree with that.
So then, back in modern day, Spikes leading Harmony down the hallway. They enter some, like, random office. This guy we find out is Jerry. He's like, we need your office. Get out. Harmony's already taking off her shoes and sweater. I guess this isn't Jerry. This is the guy that Jerry kills. So then, like, you know, the guy leaves and they get to it. And then the man is, like, all frustrated and goes inside the copy room and is like, you're not going to believe this, Jerry. I just got thrown out of my own office. That ghost pal of Mr. Good Thing, I guess he's. And then Jerry, who's using the copier, turns to the man, his eyes red and dripping blood, and says, toner, toner. Nobody replaces the toner as he beats the man mercilessly with a fire extinguisher. And I was like, you know what? That was Jerry's last straw. And I respect that. Who knows how long he's held that in, you know? And we've all been there. We've been there.
[00:52:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: So then in the lobby, angel is take talking to one of his office personnel and is like, kill him. All of them. The phones, the computers. Shut them down. Find out if we got some kind of bug in the system. And then guns. Like, do you think we're under attack? Do you think it's robots? Fred comes running in and is like, hey. Like, all of our computers, everything is on the fritz. The needles on our atmospheric gauges are spiking into red. Totally blew out the instruments. And it sounds like an electric surge. They end up going into Angel's office. And she's like, I think that it's something else. And then angel tries to pick up his mug and is like, ah, he drank all my blood, Harmony. And then Gun's like, she's off having a nooner with Blondie Bear, remember? So it's like, like systemic taking away of Angels things, Stepping into angels territory.
Fred is like, oh, my gosh, why did no one tell me that Spike is corporeal again? How did that happen? Why didn't you call me? Angel's like, we've got our hands full. And then he's like, hang on. I think that that package might coincide with Spike being back. Which I'm like, hello? Spike did mention that, like, at the very beginning of the episode. And. And they're like, there's got to be some sort of connection. And then Eve is like, oh, hey, guys, guess what? The entire universe is thrown into catastrophic turmoil.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Of course it is Eve. Of course. Of course you would know that information, Bolic genius. She kept calling them kids. I'm like, what are you talking about?
[00:53:41] Speaker A: You're younger than everyone here. I think Eve, like, she looks 12. Calm down. Yeah, she really does. Her boys, too. Gun's like, so you know what's going on. She's like, hello, kids. She talks like this.
[00:53:54] Speaker B: Ah.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: She's like, the entire universe thrown into catastrophic turmoil. Guess that's what happens, kids. You're like, go back to Lindsay, Eve.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: Eve's like, only what I'm told, Counselor Corporate. Seems Sears alerted me to the situation. She says it's a harbinger.
Basically, we've got something that happening with the Shan Shu prophecy. Maybe you've heard of it. He just, like, getting ptsd. He's like, oh, God, that again. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. She's like, it talks about a champion, a vampire with a soul who play a pivotal role in the apocalypse. Sits on Angel's desk and is like, for good or evil. Anybody's guess. That part's hazy. And then Fred's like, I thought the Shonshu had to do with angel becoming human again. And she's like, well, that's just part of it. And she's like, in the rec, for the record, that prophecy doesn't call angel by Name and then guns. Like, hang on. So you're saying because Spike is back, that he might actually be the one that the prophecy is referring to. Eve's like, I just. I don't know. Can't tell you anything. It's just all very ambiguous. But anyway, existence is disrupted in the order of things is just all messed up and everything. And then gun's like, this doesn't make sense. There were already two sold vampires in the universe before Spike fried. Why is this happening now? And Eve's like, key word is champion. Spike gave his life to save the world. That gives him the cred. But when he died and became a ghost, case case closed. Now that he's back, all bets are. Are off.
[00:55:20] Speaker B: So what do you think, Sarah? Do you think the Shanshu prophecy could be about Spike? Possibly.
[00:55:26] Speaker A: I think this episode with the fact that everything was set up by Eve and by Lindsay, and it's very much hinted at that they gave him the amulet and all that stuff, I think it's completely about angel and that Eve is manufacturing this whole thing. I think there's like, a lot of plausible deniability on the fact that Spike is even a candidate for the Shonshu.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so too. And I think it's worth remembering that a lot of discourse that I hear, you know, who is more deserving. And I think when we're talking about prophecy, I don't think it's a matter of deserving. It's what's written. Right. And I think it's telling that angel was drawn, physically drawn to the scroll back in season one.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: You know, I think that means something.
And I think if we're talking about deserving, yes, I do think angel deserves it. Not that he. Not that that's something that should be a reward for him. Because that's not the point, as we've established on this show. But I think at the end of the day, it's not about deserving. It's not about who's done more to deserve getting this reward. Because that's. That's not how a prophecy works. At the end of the day. Yeah, they're not sitting there. The prophecy's not sitting there checking off a list of, oh, Spike did this, angel did this, and then whoever has the most points in their column is gonna win the prophecy. You know, it is about who it's about.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:49] Speaker B: At the end of the day.
[00:56:50] Speaker A: Well, and I think it's interesting too, because Lindsay was there when angel found the prophecy and all that stuff went down. So Lindsay will Know what is important to angel and what button to push. And so he's going to manufacture all this, knowing that that Spike is there. And he's going to manufacture it all to show like, or to push Angel's buttons and to get him to make some serious mistakes. And Eve has been around and watched the dynamic between Spike and Angel and can report back to Lindsay and say, hey, yeah, they don't like each other and there is history here that we can exploit.
So then Gun leaves to go check on something. Fred's like, you knew this would happen. Eve's like, hey, if I had known something, I would have said it. Mining universe too, by the way. Like, how did you guys repor corialize Spike? You guys did do it. Angel's like, no, something came in the mail for him. Eve makes a connection. The mail, like the amulet. And Angel's like, yeah, never did find out who sent it. And she's like, the senior partners, baby. And then they're like glaring at her. And Eve's like, well, guys, I. I only know what I know. And then she goes, something worse is coming. Seriously dangerous. They cut back back to office Spikes humping Harmony, who does not sound like she's enjoying it at all. And then she bites Spike.
And then he like jumps away from her, sees that her eyes are bleeding. She says, I'm not. Not yours. And then he's like, okay, you're right. Not mine. She says, using me. Making me think feel like yours. She says, you don't want me. You want your slayer whore.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: Okay? And she's don't, don't, don't. Don't bring Buffy into this.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: Literally. But she's not wrong because he literally is telling her to not talk. And he's not looking at her while he's having sex.
[00:58:41] Speaker B: Like in season five when he literally made her dress up like Buffy. You disgusting.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: They're intentionally making these parallels, you know.
So then she says she'll kill him. He ends up knocking her out. Back in the hallway, medics are pulling the sheet over the body that Cherry killed. Jerry's being strapped down with restraints. He's like self centered jerks. A little thing called being considerate. And I'm like, you know what? Again, Jerry, excellent points.
[00:59:06] Speaker B: I relate.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: The man has snapped. And it's okay. We see like the words toner written blood on the wall above the copier.
So funny. Oh my gosh.
[00:59:16] Speaker B: Honestly, if you've been outside of your house whatsoever, you will relate to this.
[00:59:21] Speaker A: It's so true.
[00:59:22] Speaker B: And interacted with other Humans.
[00:59:25] Speaker A: So Lauren is talking to angel and Eve, and he's holding a handkerchief to his bloody forehead and says that he found him, like, making mashed potatoes out of this fella. And before he could get to what's wrong with this picture, he clocks me right in the coconut. So now we have another reason for Lauren to, like, you know, leave the episode for the remainder of time. I hate that they do it constantly.
[00:59:45] Speaker B: This cast is dropping like flies, like they're just never in the episodes anymore. And I. I kind of see now when people are like, like, oh. Spike takes screen time away from all these characters. Fred is barely in the episode. Gun is kind of in the episode. Lauren isn't in the episode. Wesley's not in the episode.
[01:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah, how about there's OG crew something there. Yeah.
So then Angel's like, all right, seal off the building. And then he's like, we don't know who can turn into this. He tells Lauren to take off and that to stop by Fred's the second that she figures out what's causing on. Or like, to tell Fred to tell him the second she knows what's happening. Which I was like, geez, angel, just call her. Like, let the man go lay down. Like, he's. Who knows if, like, going down to the lab is going to be on his way? So Lauren takes off. Eve's like, come on, angel, you know what's causing all this. This is just the beginning. Fabric of reality is starting to unravel. Spike walks in, lies. He's like, I don't know what you're putting in the water coolers around here, but your secretary just started crying blood and tried me to rip. Try to rip me a few new ones. And then he says how to put her porch lights out for the best. I'm sure you understand. And Angel's like, oh, yeah, you're a real hero.
And he's like, that's a problem. He hit her pretty hard. Yeah, yeah, it was a little too easy for him, but I digress. So then Eve's like, that's our problem in a nutshell. Tells Spike that there's only supposed to be one candidate for the vampire with a soul part. And then Spike's like, hang on, you're blaming this on us? Angel's like, no, she's blaming it on you. She's like, this town might not be big enough for the both of you. And that should have been a big indicator that she's hanging out with Lindsay. Yeah, seriously. He's making her watch all these westerns at night, while they're, like, you know, plotting together. He's like, no, no, babe, this one's really good. It's really, really good. They have more cowboy boots in this one. The truck's really sweet in this one.
[01:01:37] Speaker B: Lindsay would totally do that.
[01:01:43] Speaker A: So Spike's like, screw this town, Screw the devil's fun house, and screw you for good measure. I think I'll take the new flesh and bones across the pond back to Europe. Oh, he's. He's doing exactly what angel said he'd do, like, several episodes ago.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Stay away from her. Spike.
[01:02:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Please, Please, Far, far away.
[01:02:03] Speaker B: Just let her live.
[01:02:05] Speaker A: Free Buffy.
[01:02:06] Speaker B: Free Buffy.
[01:02:07] Speaker A: Please, actually free all the women from Spike. Eve's like, spike, by town, I mean this entire plane of existence. You won't solve this by leaving. You might even make it worse. Guns, like, okay, yeah, things are actually really bad. I just went to the white room. The cat's gone. The elevator just opens into a howling abyss. And Eve's like, oh, my gosh. With the conduit being gone, that means we have no contact with the senior partners. Just us in a big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe.
[01:02:33] Speaker B: Convenient.
[01:02:34] Speaker A: Angels like Spike stay through gritted teeth, and then spikes like, really? And then Angel. Europe will still be there after we've worked this out.
[01:02:46] Speaker B: Oh, Angel.
[01:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:02:49] Speaker B: And then your pride for the greater good.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: Angels, that's. The only thing Angel's hanging on, is the fact that Europe's still going to be there, because Europe's still baking.
You know, once Europe's done baking, then he can go over for some cookies.
[01:03:04] Speaker B: You know, European cookies. Cookies.
[01:03:06] Speaker A: Spike can have the. The cookie dough, not the freshly baked cookies. Yet.
[01:03:11] Speaker B: No, he can't have any of it.
[01:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. Sorry, you took that analogy too far. Spike gets salmonella and dies.
[01:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. He can have raw eggs.
[01:03:21] Speaker A: Spike gets his hand stuck in the cookie jar and has it chopped off. Okay. End of the metaphor.
So then Spike's like, all right, how are we going to work this out? You know? You're telling me we make. We're making a tear in the galaxy. You think you're just going to sew that back up? And he was like, oh, gosh, I'm so glad you guys asked. If only there was some way to determine which one of you the prophecy is really about. Angel's like, I just read the Sean Shu prophecy. There's nothing in it. Spike's like, wait. You read the prophecy? The one you don't believe in? And then they're like, man, if Only we had someone who's an expert. And then they go to Wesley's old department where we see Cirque, who was the guy that led Wesley around at the end of season four.
Immediately, I'm like, don't trust him. He's an ex watcher that sold out the Council. Don't like him. Don't like him. So he's like, you didn't read the prophecy.
You read a translation of the prophecy. He leads them through this bogus sounding prophecy. I don't know how they all didn't, like, call him a liar with this. And he's like, oh, yes. Basically, there's a cup of perpetual torment that is somewhere in the middle of the desert in Nevada old opera theater that is conveniently within driving distance. And if you convenient it, you're going to become mortal.
And so Angel's like, well, guess I gotta do the right thing and go drink that cup. And then he turns around and realizes that Spike is no longer in the room. And he has dipped. In fact, he has taken Angel's red Viper. The one that he knew angel wanted is the black Viper. I thought it was red.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: No, he took the black one.
[01:05:00] Speaker A: All right. Angel took black Viper. He took Angel's favorite.
[01:05:03] Speaker B: Can I just say, the cut from that scene to Spike speeding down a dirt road. I died. I just thought it was the funniest cut ever. And he's just, like, in the car, just jamming.
[01:05:15] Speaker A: The way he's dancing is the same as life in the life at the party.
[01:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:05:19] Speaker A: He's like, yeah, we just need Rascal Flats. Life is a highway I'm going my way I don't know why I'm singing so much this episode.
[01:05:29] Speaker B: Are you okay?
[01:05:30] Speaker A: Don't mind me. No, I'm not super tired. Okay means no filter. Means lots of fun for you guys to listen to. Okay. So then he, like, the phone rings and he, like, answers it. And he knows exactly who this is. He's like, yellow. And Angel's like, you took my Viper. Spike's like, my viper now, mate. Possessions. Nine tenths. Ought to know that running a law firm and such. And then we see the angels also driving down the same highway. He's like, you think this is a game? People are dying, Kim. People are dying, Kim.
Yeah.
[01:06:06] Speaker B: I mean, Spike will be throwing a tantrum in just a little bit. So.
[01:06:10] Speaker A: Yeah, very appropriate. This is Courtney and Kim right here.
[01:06:16] Speaker B: My earrings and my favorite earrings.
[01:06:18] Speaker A: Then Spike's like, all right, one of us is going to stop it. Hey, what do you know? I Vote for me. Angel's like, there's no voting. It's a prophecy. Spike's like, still can't accept it. All those years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares. Angels, like, I really wished you'd stay. Date a ghost. Spike's like, but I didn't. Burned up saving the world. Now I'm back for real. Wonder what that is. Oh, wait, because I'm the one. And then Spike's like, what's that? I'm losing. But then he, like, hangs up. Angel's like, idiot. Cut back to Gun's office. And he's like, telling people to tie Harmony down. And then Eve comes in and is like, man, always something with this place, huh? I mean, ghost fight fights, ID monsters, killer cyborgs. It's a wonder with all the hijinks. You people ever get any work done? Gun's like, yeah, you seem to be around for all the hijinks.
And it's just, like, super suspicious with her. And apparently he did, like, some research on her. Is like, you know, you're from Santa Cruz. And she's like, never said I was from Santa Cruz. Just went from to school there. And she says, if we're talking about being connected, Charles, you're the guy that talks. Talks to the cat upstairs. But again, of course, there's disconnect. And as they're talking, a guy with an ax is heading towards them. Ends up getting tackled by the security guards. But basically, we get the tension between Gun and Eve setting up for later in the episode. So at the opera house, Spike and Angel arrive separately. They're just, you know, staring at this cup. And they're like, well, what do you think we're going to do now? And Spike immediately just punches Angels, like, what do you think?
[01:07:53] Speaker B: Because that's what he knows how to do best.
[01:07:56] Speaker A: What do you think? There's going to be no talking here. So then we have another flashback back to the Victorian hotel. William walks in, sees angel having sex with a woman in white. Thinks that it's the bride. But then angel intentionally leans back and reveals that it's Drusilla. And she's like, the little children didn't come out to play. Did you miss me, pretty William? And Angelus is like, oh, I'm sure he did, Drew. After all, you are his destiny. And I wrote. And now Angelus has humped his destiny.
And Drusel's like, oh, that's so sweet. As she's like, still connected to Angelus. And Angelus is like. Or like William is like losing. So he is angry.
[01:08:37] Speaker B: Projectile vomit at this point.
[01:08:38] Speaker A: And this also makes a lot of sense why Spike got so triggered when angel took Drusilla in season two. Like, you have to imagine a lot of people. I mean, I don't think it's, you know, a huge stretch to say that Drusilla and Angela probably sleeping together in season two while Spike was in the wheelchair.
[01:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:55] Speaker A: And that's ultimately what led Spike to side with Buffy. So I really like this tie in because it explains a lot more of Spike's reasoning in season two.
So Adam Ward, the first assistant focus puller, says for the scene, says that the scenes at the abandoned opera house were unexpectedly difficult to film. It's one thing to see it on camera and another being on location in this theater that hasn't been used other than for film shots for decades. You get in there and the matter that floats around looks great on camera, but you just don't want to breathe it in. So apparently it was very hard to shoot all the dust getting kicked up because there was a lot of, like, questionable things and all that icky stuff there, which, hey, it makes for a really great sequence. I. It was nice to see a set that we haven't used in a while. In a while. Because, like, a lot of stuff has been just in Wolfram and Hart, and so it's just nice to have something else else. All right, so Spike is pacing back and forth while angel gets back up to his feet. He says, come on, let's see how much soul you really got in there. Angel's like, we don't have time for this. He's like, fine, we'll do it your way. They start fist fighting, trading punches. The sound effects for this episode were so over the top and extra. I was living for it, but I was also dying with the like.
Like the punches and then, like, the sword fight. The, like, the air dynamic. I don't know, it was just really, really fun. But it also was, like, so dramatic. I was cracking up. So Spike throws Angel into the air. Angel lands on a balcony and. Or, like, Spike lands on a balcony. Angel lands on a cross, which burns him. And he recoils, kicking the cross down to the stage below. Spike laughs at him and says, look at you, thinking you're the big savior, fighting for truth, justice and soccer moms. But you still can't lay flesh on a cross with a without smelling like bacon, can you? And he ends up, like, picking up the cross and this is supposed to be a callback to when Angelus put his hand into the sunlight. And, you know, this is so interesting because this is Spike going, well, look at me. I'm the big man now because I can hold on to these things and not get burned. You can't, but it's like, I don't.
[01:11:00] Speaker B: Know who you are, Spike.
[01:11:02] Speaker A: Right. That just shows that angels changed and Spike hasn't. Spike's still living in the. This past petty feud that in a lot of ways, like, angel has moved past, even though, like, here he is, like, getting angry all over again. But in a lot of ways, angel has other things going on and Spike is still stuck in that same.
[01:11:21] Speaker B: Still stuck trying to prove himself to Angelus when, yeah, Angelus, like, Angel is not even thinking of that.
[01:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[01:11:29] Speaker B: And it's just. It's just the fact that, like, he picks up the cross, like you said to say, like, look at me, like, I can do this and you can't. But it's like, like you're also burning, Spike. You're. You picked up that cross and you're burning and you're withstanding the pain. But what does that do for anyone?
[01:11:43] Speaker A: Well, there's a symbolic thing there that angel feels the effects of his sin and his soul, and that's why he struggles with touching a cross. Now it's a reminder versus Spike doesn't really feel the pain. And he. Maybe he should. And that's something I want to talk about. There is so many people that say, oh, the difference between Angelus and Spike is the fact that Angelus just sits and mires in his pain. And that's not healthy. And Spike recognizes it and moves past and it's a lot healthier. And it's like, first of all, we have to remember that Angela or Angel is cursed with a soul. And there's a complete difference between being cursed with a soul and just simply having a soul. As a vampire, angel can. Can always end up going back and reverting back to Angelus if he's not careful. And so he has to sit with the weight of what he's done. He can't have perfect happiness.
[01:12:39] Speaker B: The literal clause of the curse is that if angel, it's not. It's not perfect happiness per se. The curse says that if angel for one moment, even a single moment, stops feeling the weight of all of the things that he's done. That's what the curse says. That's what Uncle Jenny's uncle says in season two. If he for even one moment, doesn't think about all of the pain that he's caused and feel guilt and all of that, then his soul will be lifted.
[01:13:09] Speaker A: Right.
[01:13:10] Speaker B: So he genuinely can't not think about it. He can't not wallow because it would put the world at stake. It would release Angelus and cause so much destruction.
Yeah, it's a. It's very different.
[01:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah. But then there's also, like, the sense of, like, Spike really should be a little bit more self reflective. And we haven't seen that from him yet. And so this idea that, like, oh, Spike is in a healthier headspace because he's able to move past that, it's like, that's not necessarily what the episode is telling us. Also, just shout out to Cordelia catching strays in this episode, being called soccer mom. Did you notice that little reference right there? I was like, oh, he's referring to Cordelia.
Oh, my God.
[01:13:55] Speaker B: I mean, the hair fits.
[01:13:57] Speaker A: So, yeah, if the kicker boots fits. Angels, like. Like you're any different. Spikes, like. Well, that's just that I am, and you know it. You had my. You had a soul forced on you as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you did. But me, I fought for my soul when demon trials almost did me in a dozen times. But I kept fighting because I knew it was the right thing to do. Do. Let's talk about that. Let's unpack that.
[01:14:20] Speaker B: I have. Yeah, go ahead.
[01:14:22] Speaker A: How about it?
[01:14:24] Speaker B: This is where I started to get angry at the episode.
This is where I started to have heart palpitations.
Yeah. I think that this is just a complete mischaracterization of why Spike went and got a soul in the first place. And I know this is a divisive topic, and a lot of people view it in two ways that you view it. Right. Like, there's the view that Spike went and got a soul because after he tried to rape Buffy, he realized what he had done and he went to get a soul so that she would have a partner, so that she could get what she deserves, meaning have somebody who wouldn't do something like that. Again, I disagree with that interpretation so deeply because I think that as a person, not a person, as a thing, as a vampire with no soul, Spike doesn't have the capacity to feel guilt that way. And I think I agree that Spike went and got his soul. I know there's, you know, discussion about whether he meant to get the chip, but I think the writers have confirmed that he did intend to go and get his soul. And I can Accept that. I think that's. That's fine. I think the way that I see it though, is that he tried to rape Buffy and he realized that he fucked up so badly and would never be able to get back into her good graces. So he went to get a soul as a last ditch effort to give her no more reason to reject him. Right? Because in solace, Spike's mind, in his Buffy obsessed mind, if he has a soul, she can't say that I can't love you anymore. She has to love him if he has a soul. So I don't think that he got a soul fur because it was the right thing to do. Because he could have gotten a soul a million times before if he was so good before, you know. But it took almost. It took sexually assaulting Buffy to get him to be like, oh, I need to get a soul now. But Spike is a soulless vampire. It doesn't make sense that he would feel badly about that because of Buffy for selfless reasons. It was completely self selfish. Sorry. So Spike went and got a soul for Spike to have Buffy, not for Buffy to have somebody who wouldn't do that because Buffy didn't want him. They had been broken up for episodes at that point. She had made it very clear that she didn't want to be with him. And he just. That's what Spike does. He ignores boundaries. He only thinks about what he wants and he is going to get it no matter what. And I think that's where it differs here. And I think that's why I like, deeply disagree with this, that he did it because it was the right thing to do. Because he really didn't. And a soulless Spike didn't know what having a soul would entail. He didn't know what he was doing.
[01:17:21] Speaker A: No, he just couldn't understand it.
[01:17:23] Speaker B: He couldn't understand because he. You didn't have a soul. And it just like blows my mind that somebody would look at that and think that this is some noble act that he did out of the goodness of his heart because he realized the wrongdoings of him. You know, like, it just doesn't make sense in my brain. So the way that I see it is that way. And that's why I think that him using this excuse to say that he's better than angel does not work.
I think like we always say, you can have a soul, but that doesn't make you a good person.
And I don't think that the act of getting a soul makes Spike a good person whatsoever. I think that angel was cursed with a soul. But I think that he's done a lot of things to try to be a good person. Is he always a good person? No, he makes mistakes. But I think it's like. It's that choice, right? It's what this show is all about. That continuous choice that you make to be better and do better, and knowing that there's not going to be a light at the end of the tunnel, that redemption is never ending. And that's what angel represents. And Spike doesn't get that yet. And that's why he uses this excuse, and that's why he, like, reframes his grand gesture as doing the right thing, because he can't see past that. He thinks that he deserves something because he did that. But I don't think he deserves anything, actually.
But anyway, that's my rant. What do you want to say?
[01:18:51] Speaker A: Well, and I agree with you. I think that. And we talked about this on Becoming Buffy. I think that the show actually heavily reinforces that view that you have with Spike getting the soul, but not for good purposes and good intentions, because for three episodes, he's ranting and raving all the way to Africa. And in there talking about how the bitch is going to get what she deserves in the angriest voice. Voice ever. There's a very clear, I'm gonna give. Fine. That's what she wants. I'm gonna go do it and I'll get it for her. Like, it's like a fine, take it kind of attitude. And it's not, hey, you deserve better. You need more. There's this anger there that he feels. And I think there is a part of him that does feel shame for what he attempted to do to Buffy after the fact. But instead of using that as self reflective because he can't, because he doesn't have a soul, he goes, ugh, I don't like being this feeling. Gosh, I shouldn't be feeling. Why should make me do it this way.
[01:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Why did. I'm sick of being in between. So I'm gonna go get a soul. And it's not because it was the right thing to do. Also, and I've been saying this since the beginning, I will forever be so frustrated with the idea of Spike fighting for his soul and Angel. Not sure angel had his soul forced on him the first time, but you cannot tell me that angel does not fight for his soul every single second and every moment of every day with putting off his own happiness and putting off all of that other Stuff. In an effort to keep Angelus from bay, angel fights for his soul harder than any anybody else, really, in this entire universe, and by far more than Spike does. So I just. And it's, it's moments like this, and I think this is the first time in the episode where I go, okay, we shouldn't take everything that Spike says seriously.
And I do.
I do wonder, because sometimes it's hard to know. I do wonder if the writers are intentionally doing this or if they really do believe that he did fight for his soul because it was the right thing to do. Like, sometimes it's hard to tell. Yeah. But yeah, also, this is the angriest I've seen Angel in a hot minute.
[01:20:56] Speaker B: Oh, he's about to get angrier even.
[01:20:58] Speaker A: I know. I love it. I love you.
[01:21:01] Speaker B: Another thing that I was actually thinking about when I was watching this episode is, you know, I. I know the writers have spoken about visiting like the posting boards online during this time, and I really do wonder if this is like their own meta way of talking to the viewers.
[01:21:16] Speaker A: I'm sure it is. This is probably service written all over.
[01:21:21] Speaker B: It, but just the dialogue and everything that they were saying. I feel like this is the stuff that people were debating on the posting boards back in the day. So I wonder if they like went in there and saw all of this. And we're trying to kind of speak to the viewer directly through this episode. It is. It's super clever.
But that's. That's like the first thing that came into my mind because this is all. These are like verbatim the things that.
[01:21:44] Speaker A: People say online still talk about.
[01:21:46] Speaker B: I started twitching. I was like, I'm like glitching out, right?
[01:21:52] Speaker A: Well, because then he says, it's my destiny. And it's like, oh, so you're just co opt. And that's what makes me think that the writers are self aware in this moment and that they're like, no, we should not be taking what Spike says seriously. Because the it's my destiny line shows that Spike's just seeing this as one more thing that he's going to become obsessed about. One more thing.
[01:22:13] Speaker B: Entitled to.
[01:22:14] Speaker A: That he's entitled to. Exactly. And he's using Buffy, he's using Drusilla, he's used. Now he's using angel in a lot of ways. And then angel says, really heard it was just to get into a girl's pants. Pants. Oh, Spike grabs a rebar and then they go after each other. I was like, that's a lot of repressed rage. On both parts, it's like, yeah.
In the science lab, Harmony's on a stretcher. Bunch more K. I know. There's a bunch more stuff. Gun ends up getting bloody eyes and going after Eve and starting to choke her. And then Fred ends up smacking Gun in the head with the metal tray. Or I think it was a fire hydrant. And then back in the opera house, where the real juicy stuff is happening. Angel scares. I know. Seriously, I was like, get back to the good stuff. They're fighting using the rebar rods at stat as staffs. We have, like, the sparks going up. It's basically essentially a. A sword fight, a dick fight. Spike used to hit a lot harder. Gramps. Angels, like, no, your head's just gotten a lot thicker. Yeah.
Spike says, you're not gonna win this time. Punches angel, knocking him off the balcony. He lands on the stage below, coughing and bleeding at the mouth. And Spike says, v the soul. Nobody knows what side he's going to fight on when the big show comes down. Except we already know what side you're on, don't we? Already made your choice. Traded in your cape and tights for a nice comfy chair at Wolfram and Bloody Heart, Which I was like, this is probably the most, like, pivotal thing that Spike could say to angel right now. Because he's not wrong.
[01:23:45] Speaker B: This is what gets Angel. This is what, like, really gets angel here. And that's what puts him at a disadvantage. He, like, hit him where it hurts with that one.
[01:23:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:23:54] Speaker B: Along with what he says about Buffy, obviously. But I think that gives him, like, a second wind. And he, like. I rewatched that part several times.
[01:24:01] Speaker A: That was really, really fun. Angel says, a little more complicated than that. Uses the rebar, spikes holding to get leverage, and does, like, a flip. Oh, the way that they just very cool the stunts and just made it so, like, Vampire Versus.
[01:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:24:16] Speaker A: I was like, oh, I'm living for this, guys.
[01:24:18] Speaker B: Honestly, they just do such good work together, David and James. And, like, yes, it's very antagonistic, this scene. But, like, you can tell they're having so much fun.
[01:24:27] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
[01:24:28] Speaker B: Like, so much fun.
[01:24:29] Speaker A: And he says, you always wear a bit simple willy.
[01:24:32] Speaker B: Which, you know, of course, struck a nerve.
[01:24:35] Speaker A: That struck a nerve for Spikes. Then we get our next flashback. Angelus is throwing William into the wall, squeezing his neck. William says, don't touch her. Angela says, a little late for that, Willie. And I really don't like it when you raise your voice to me. Drusilla comes in, says, william, don't play Such a sad tune. Give us a kiss, then. I. It's so clever that they had Drusilla here, but they're also referencing and talking about Buffy. Like, a lot of the stand in stuff for Drusilla is also like a lot of their feelings towards Buffy and what? And you know, them also talking about Spike. So then William's like, you knew she was mine. Angela said, did I? He says, you bloody well knew. Charges Angelus and Angelus defend, deflects William easily and pushes him to the ground. Says, just don't get it now, do you? And then he pushes all the corpses off the couch, puts William on the couch and sits next to him. Says, well, you're new and a little dim, so let me explain to you how things are now. There's no belonging or deserving anymore. You can take what you want, have what you want, but nothing is yours. Drusilla walks out into the doorway just as he says, not even her. William says, you're wrong. We're forever, Drusilla and me. And she claps her hands over her heart and says, is. Are we? And Giles is like, ah, still the poet now, aren't we, Willy? William. Right, William. You know, you really should find a new name for yourself. It just doesn't strike the right note of terror. And thus begins William's origin story.
[01:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And the thing about the scene is that Angelus isn't wrong. I feel like, you know, like.
Like I feel like William. Yeah, absolutely. I think if we're looking at it from the perspective of, like, vampire relationships, this makes sense. Right? Like, vampires are supposed to represent.
[01:26:15] Speaker A: Like.
[01:26:16] Speaker B: They'Re free, they can do whatever they want. They're powerful, they're eternal. They mix like, violence and sexuality and all of those things. And I think it's safe to say that relationships for them are very fluid.
[01:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:30] Speaker B: And I think when Angela says, there's no belonging.
[01:26:34] Speaker A: Yes, he.
[01:26:35] Speaker B: It's true. Like, it's. It is how it is. They take what they want, they take lives, they take everything. So for William to come in here and, like, obviously this is a very established dynamic. Obviously, like Angelus, like I said before, has some sort of possession over Drusilla. And there's like, vice versa because of their twisted history.
But even him and Darla, like, I don't think him and Darla are loyal to each other in a way where she, you know, they're monogamous. Yeah, exactly. So I think this is a big wake up call for Spike or William. And there's a scene that's going to be coming up where he makes a comment about how Drusilla sired him, but Angelus made him a monster. And, I mean, we can talk about that when we get there. But I just want to say that these flashbacks didn't show that to me. None of the flashbacks showed that, like, being true. But I'll save my thoughts on that for when we get there. But, yeah, I just wanted to kind of say that, like, taking into consideration vampire relationships and just the existence of a vampire, this makes sense that Angelus would. Would say this, would give this, like, wake up call or this, like, reality check to William. And for William, who is freshly made into a vampire, like, he's still very much, you know, still transitioning. Like, he has those, like, baser instincts of a demon, but he doesn't know the ins and outs of it yet. And he's learning. This is him learning what it is to be a vampire, you know?
[01:28:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, this is angel or Angelus unlocking the ID for William in a lot of ways, introducing him to a different way of living. But the whole you can take what you want, have it you want, but nothing is yours. It's this idea. You don't have a destiny, you don't have purpose. You don't like. It's very hedonistic way of living. There is no more meaning in life for you. Even though you have everything, you just.
[01:28:31] Speaker B: Take whatever you want.
[01:28:32] Speaker A: So for Spike, there's this idea of I can take whatever I want. So I'm gonna go take on the identities of these slayers, because I. I still have that emptiness inside of me that I'm still trying to feel feed or I'm still trying to fill. So I'm going to go and co opt the identities of these other women. I'm going to take their identities, I'm going to take their jackets. I'm going to take.
Because I can have whatever I want. But at the end of the day, because nothing is actually mine, I'm going to feel unfulfilled.
Yeah. And I mean, that's what we see next in fool for Love, when Angela's like, hang on, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're starting to, like, become really reckless. And Spike's like, no, like, you've unlocked this new me, and I'm going to go do whatever I want right now.
But, yeah. And then this part is just so sinister. The moment where Drusilla walks out and then he gets up and goes behind her and kind of possessively hugs her and is like, all right, well, if you want her Come and take her.
[01:29:29] Speaker B: And he's inviting him for a threesome.
[01:29:34] Speaker A: I. He think he's inviting him for. To be more of a deviant. But then there's also this level of, you know, you'll have to fight me for her and I will kill you kind of thing. Yeah. Don't, don't.
Don't wreck the status quo. Basically, yeah. So then back at the opera house, angel finally reaches for the cup. Spike charges him. They both stand having their hands at each other's throat. Spike says, come on, hero, tell me more. Teach me what it means and I'll tell you why you can't stand the bloody side of me. And an angel punches him back and says, tell it to your therapist.
[01:30:07] Speaker B: Spike says, okay, this is a lame line.
[01:30:11] Speaker A: Spike says, because every time you look at me, you see all the dirty little things I've done, all the lives I've taken because of you. Drusilla sired me, but you made me a monster. See, I don't. I don't see this at all. I don't think Angelus does. I think this is Spike's projection.
[01:30:27] Speaker B: Totally. I don't think Spike or I don't think Angelus made Spike into a monster any more than Darla made Angelus into a monster.
[01:30:36] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
[01:30:36] Speaker B: I think at the end of the day, they all influenced each other because they were spending time together. So I can concede to that, you know, Obviously.
[01:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously.
[01:30:48] Speaker B: But that doesn't mean that everything Spike did is Angelus's responsibility. That doesn't mean that if Angelus and Spike never met, that Spike wouldn't have gone on to do the same exact things. Because at the end of the day, and this is where it comes back in the fact that he's an evil vampire. Spike is evil. He is a vampire, which makes him evil once again. He's a vampire.
[01:31:11] Speaker A: He's evil.
[01:31:13] Speaker B: He doesn't have a soul. So this whole. You made me into a monster. No, Spike, you're projecting your passing off, you know, shifting blame so that you don't have to face up to the. That you did.
[01:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. There's a lack of accountability here. And angel, of course, doesn't take the bait and says, I didn't make you, Spike. I just opened the door and let the real you out. Oh, Spike's gonna hate that. And he's right.
And yeah, so the. The big thing is in the show clearly demonstrates and tells us that Spike is horrible. He is heavily influenced by whomever he's taking inspiration from, which is an issue in and of itself by the fact that Spike doesn't even know who he is. He just kind of co ops anybody's personality. So then Spike picks up the cross at burned Angel. Before swings, it says, you never knew the real me. Which is so interesting because I was just editing our episode, Never me. And that's the episode where Spike says that to Buffy when he's in the basement and is trying to tell Buffy to kill him and that she doesn't know what he's capable of. And that's kind of the theme of Spike the past few seasons of who is the real Spike and how we don't know and how. There's kind of this idea that, like, he still has choices to make. And a lot of his choices this episode are similar to the ones he made when he was pre and sold. And so it's kind of like, all right, Spike, Spike, do you even know who you are? No, he doesn't. He does not.
[01:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:32:42] Speaker A: Critically touched brings up the major difference between angel and Spike. And one I hear quoted all the time. They say the key here is that Spike has a major philosophical difference with angel in regard to the responsibility they have, their soulless crimes. Spike knows he wasn't the same person then and didn't have the moral conscience capable of unselfish behavior, but angel does. And so they're basically talking about how, like, Spike moves past it, but angel doesn't. Which I talked about that a second go.
And again, pros and cons to it and stuff. But I think that we, as an audience, even from a storytelling point of view, we resonate more and understand more.
Spikes or not Spike Angel's path to redemption, because we see him actually fighting and there are real world consequences. Whereas if the show truly is trying to tell us, which I don't think they are, but if they were trying to tell us that Spike was repentant and stuff, I think they would go a lot further.
But anyway, so then Spike's, like, too busy trying to see your own reflection, praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the world so that you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look, hero. I'm nothing like you. And I don't think Angelus or Angel cares. Angel says, no, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you, because you weren't me.
[01:33:57] Speaker B: This was a low blow. This was a low blow.
Spike said, I'm going low. Angel said, I'm going to hell.
[01:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, angel at least is speaking the truth here. Spike grabs angel by the lapels and says, yes, that means she was thinking about you all those times I was putting it to her. Listen, listen. You don't say this after you tried to rape her. You don't. And someone who is truly, genuinely reported repulsed by their actions doesn't say that. So this is Nancy Holder, who I love. I love her as a writer. She says that this episode marks the transition from Spike's characterization, as it was in the seventh season of Buffy, to a new, never before seen version defined by his relationship with angel instead of Buffy. When angel tells Spike that Buffy never really loved you because you weren't me, and Spike responds with, you know, guess that means she was in you, blah, blah, blah. Holder says that Spike is betraying all the soft emotion he had for her in his eagerness to deal Angel a blow. Rather than reacting out of love for Buffy, the new Spike cares only about putting down angel, which is him getting back to back at angel because of angel sleeping with Drusilla, which then calls into question was part of his obsession with Buffy because she slept with angel first.
[01:35:21] Speaker B: So what you're saying is Spike wants to sleep with Angel.
[01:35:24] Speaker A: If you would like to interpret it that way, be my guest. But this calls into question. This entire episode calls into question. Like, I have no doubt that, like, there's a part of Spike that does care for Buffy, but this really changes a lot of the dynamic in the lore because Buffy represented power and purpose for him, and part of that was because she was a slayer. But was that also because of who she was to Angel? Like, this should really cause a lot of people to question Spike's affection for Buffy. And really, Spike himself should be doing some soul searching. Haha. And be like, hang on.
[01:36:00] Speaker B: Like, this is why a lot of people say that this is out of character for Spike to even say. And I, I find that people fall back on that excuse a lot when it comes to Spike doing things that they don't like that doesn't fit with their particular narrative or their interpretation of the shows. They just go, oh, it's out of character for Spike. Spike.
[01:36:21] Speaker A: How many out of character moments can we, can we give him a pass on before we're like, maybe this is actually an in character thing. Like, there are several big, big episodes that people reject.
Yeah. Of Spikes because they're like, this is out of character. And it's like, hang on, at what point is this actually completely in character? You know?
[01:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And just on the record, this line, angel saying she didn't love you because you weren't me. I Disagree with that line. Yeah. I don't believe that Buffy was in love with Spike. I do think that Buffy had love for Spike at the very end just because they had been through, like, so much together. And it's clear that she did. And I don't think that that had anything to do with Angel. I think the reason she couldn't love him is because of their own history together. I think whether she loved angel or not before, I think it would have been the same again, exact outcome with Spike. And I don't think that she would have loved him because of their particular relationship, which, contrary to what a lot of people say, their season six relation or their season seven relationship is just an extension of season six. There's no difference.
There's a difference. It's like. It's like the same relationship in a different font because now he has a soul. But they wouldn't have a relationship in season seven if it wasn't an extension of season six. Six. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's all intertwined. And that's why she can't love him, you know?
[01:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:37:50] Speaker B: Like, be in love with him. Sorry. The way that he is in love with her, which I don't think she is. But I think, like I said, she has love for him. She cares about him. She mourned his death. All of that is true. And I don't think it has anything to do with Angel. And I think angel, like, definitely was hitting below the belt.
[01:38:09] Speaker A: Which it was coming out. Yeah. Well. And this. This gets to angel because I. I literally. I know I said I've never seen him. I've never seen him so angry. He grabs Spike's wrists, and we have that. Pull him apart. He punches Spike, throws him across the room, causes some of the wood to.
[01:38:30] Speaker B: Shatter to the arm.
[01:38:31] Speaker A: Yep. Then he's like, all right. Then he changes into his vamp face. Face. Let's finish this. Spike changes his face. They charge each other. Fred's office. Eve is shaken up. You know, Fred's trying to help her. Yeah, all that stuff. Eve ends up singing, I'm not the bad guy. And we're like. And the thing is, is that she truly believes this. She thinks they are the bad guys.
So then we cut back to the opera house, and they're still fighting. Angel scratches Spikes chest with wood, says, how's it feel? Feel? Spike scratches Angel's chest. You tell me. They fight. They fight. Finally, Spike ends up punching angel, getting him down and driving a stake into his body and says, probably should have dusted you. But honestly, I don't want to hear her about it.
[01:39:17] Speaker B: Oh, wow. How benevolent of you.
[01:39:19] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. And then he heads towards the cup, and angel struggles to get up and says, spike, wait. That's not a prize you're holding.
And then that. Which is very similar to earlier episode where angel specifically refers to Buffy. And when he's talking to Spike as, she's not a prize. She's not anyone's prize. And then Spike says. And then he says, it's not a trophy, it's a burden. It's a cross. When you're going to have to bear till it burns you to ashes. Believe me, I know. And then Spike puts the cup back, looks at Angel. Angel says, so ask yourself, is this really the destiny that was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is that you just wanting to take something away from me? Which is such a good question. Because the irony is, by trying to take this away from angel, he is actually reflecting him, which is so interesting.
Spike shrugs and says, bit of both, which at least he's honest, but that's still not great. And then angel tries to stop him, but it's too late. Spike's like, it's Mountain Dew. They realize that they've been tricked. Mountain Dew is just hilarious. Absolutely. I love just seeing Holy water. Mountain Dew.
[01:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love just seeing the fight drain out of both of them when they realize. And they're just looking at each other like, man, I'm sorry.
[01:40:38] Speaker A: They're like, wow, I feel like an idiot now. Yeah, you should. And they still feel like an idiot when they go back into the science lab. And Fred's like, oh, my gosh, what happened? He's like, I fell down. And then Spike comes in. She's like, fell down? Sure. When she sees him all bloody as well.
And then he's like, it was a fake. Somebody sent us up. Cir was the one who sent us. Spike comes back and says he's gone. He's cleaned out his office. And then Gun comes in. Or, like, comes to, and Harmony comes to, and everybody comes back. And that night, they're all being briefed by Eve. And she says the senior partner stepped in. Apparently, they were working on the problem since it started. They managed to temporarily stabilize the universe's equilibrium. I love, like, it's really funny. Spike sitting in Angel's chair.
And angel says, temporarily? For how long? And what about Cirque? Eve's like, they don't know a thing about it. They're as angry as You Angels, like, really doubt that. He's like, don't worry, Angel. We'll find him. I'm gonna go ice my neck. Gun tries to apologize to her, and she's like, don't worry. You've got other things to worry about. The whole Shonshu, you know, two vampires of soul. And then she takes off. Spike takes off, and it's just Gun and Angel. And this is the part that also bugs me a little bit, because I think this is the first time I've seen Gun and angel have a heart to heart. Because this would normally be Wesley.
[01:41:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:42:00] Speaker A: And I'm like, so you're telling me that Gun could be having these conversations with Angel? Why is it always Wesley? Come on. I know, but Angel's like, he beat me. Gun. Guns. Like, well, you know, it's not that big of a deal because it was fake. And Angel's like, no, but he won the fight, Gun. For the first time, it doesn't matter if the cup is real or not. In the end, Spike was stronger. He wanted it more. And Guns, like, it doesn't mean anything. And angel says, what if it does? What if it means that I'm not the one? Which means, what is my destiny then? What am I living for? What am I. What am I going towards? How am I living?
So then we get to the very end, because if that was an exciting announcement. Enough. We're now in the apartment. We have Eve walking into an apartment with, like, the door jambs, the door, the walls, all covered in strange symbols. She begins to take off her clothes. As she's talking to someone off screen, she says, you know, everything went according to plan. Mr. Sir pulled off his vanishing act. All of this happened right under the senior partner's nose. And she's like, by the way, Spike didn't kill angel, but they did beat each other to a bloody pulp. She crawls into bed, snuggles up under the covers to Lindsay, whose chest and arms are covered in the same kind of symbols that are on the doors. And he puts his arm around her and says, well, it's a start.
That's.
[01:43:16] Speaker B: I'm excited to see how they pulled all this off, because, my goodness.
[01:43:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally.
Yeah.
[01:43:24] Speaker B: I did forget to make one comment about in our Spike not killing Angel. And I think when I was talking in the beginning about how a lot of what Spike was doing was, like, a reaction and having a meltdown and projecting, I think if he truly hated angel as much as he says he hates angel, he would have killed him no problem.
[01:43:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:43:44] Speaker B: You know, regardless of whether Buffy would be mad about it or not. But I think there's a part of Spike that sees his father's Angel. Well, yeah. I mean, a part of it is that, but I think. Think that's why the entire episode is just. I view Spike as, like, having a meltdown. And just like you said, like, giving into the ID or whatever.
Because I think he says that he hates angel as much as he does. And I think angel says that he hates Spike as much as he does. But I think even when Spike was soulless and it was Buffy Season 2, when Spike and Drusilla were first introduced, angel was always telling them, you guys need to leave because this is going to get ugly and I don't want to have to kill you. Like, they have some type of loyalty to each other. This, like, strange, very old loyalty. And I think it has translated into their soul diversions. It's just different now because they have more in common.
[01:44:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:44:44] Speaker B: And they both refuse to admit it. And this was Spike kind of, I think, like, maybe realizing that a little bit. And that's why he couldn't kill Angel.
[01:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah. It felt like a deflection to say that it. It was just because of Buffy.
[01:44:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. Exactly.
[01:45:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I get the part of it that's not the full truth because we had that sweet moment where they bonded, where they were talking about how, like, they like angel, liked his poetry and.
[01:45:10] Speaker B: Right.
[01:45:10] Speaker A: You know, so there. There are parts of them that really kind of like each other. Yeah.
[01:45:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Exactly.
So I'm excited to see where that goes.
[01:45:21] Speaker A: Agreed.
But this moment with Lindsay. So I wrote this in my notes back in Dead End, which was the last episode that we saw Lindsay. The end to the Lindsay arc, what that we knew of at the time. There have been a lot of parallels between Lindsay and Angel, and it feels as though Lindsay's storyline has been a step or two behind Angels. We've seen Lindsay really becoming apathetic right around the same time the angel became beige Angel. And we realized that it's because he's been given everything. But he hates his life and who he has become. And it kind of mirrors where Angel's at right now in his life. He has no passions, which in Blind Date Holland says that this lack of passion is why Lindsay hasn't decided who he should be. Which also reflects Spike. But they also know that this. That. But they also know that that's partially what keeps him at Wolfram and Hart, which is why the Wolverine. Hart gives or not Angel. Lindsay back his arm to remove the reminder of the vendetta he holds against Angel. And so I think that there. That's kind of also what Wolfram and Hart is doing with angel here. And now in season five, we're kind of seeing bits of parallels of how they bait them, how they keep them around. And it's the same thing with the cautionary tale of numero cinco. They. They get these heroes and they get these good people and they corrupt them and they take away any hope that they have, and that's how they get them to stick around.
And. And we referred to Lindsay as kind of a puppet for Wolfram and Hart back in Dead End, which is another major theme of this season, and kind of a major theme of both Buffy and Angel is that idea of living a life of self sacrifice, intention and purpose is more rewarding than living one of selfishness. So it's really, really interesting to see Lindsay coming back after that. And it's like, does Lindsay think that he's doing the right thing now? Does he think that Angel's evil? And are we going to kind of see, like, a twist of that? Is Lindsay going to be the one helps to kind of get angel out of that funk? I don't know. It's very fascinating and I'm really excited to talk about it.
[01:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I had never looked at it that way because I know, like, what happens because I've seen the season before, but that's actually such a. Interesting perspective to look at it.
[01:47:32] Speaker A: Right. Because I know a lot of. I know some people are kind of like, ah, why'd they bring Lindsay back? It ruined everything.
[01:47:37] Speaker B: But it's like, it makes sense.
[01:47:39] Speaker A: There, there's. There is kind of a little bit of a sense here. We'll see how the execution is. But yeah, right, Right. Theoretically, it, it works on paper. So.
[01:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:47:48] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, guys, meaty episode. Probably going to be the most controversial episode that we do on the show.
Probably going to be the one that you're most tempted to write us a hate letter. So just think, oh, please don't before you do so. We're always willing to listen to arguments, but, you know, in a very kind manner. Manner. But yeah, let us know your thoughts on the episode, guys. Did hopefully, like, we were able to talk about it in a nuanced way. Hopefully we helped you think of it in a fresh perspective. And if not, hopefully we, you know, it was therapeutic for you to hear us vent and talk about things that maybe you related to or didn't. I don't know. But yeah, let us know your thoughts and thank you so much for listening guys. We will see you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us@ InvestigatingAngelpodcastmail.com.
