Show Notes
Cyborg assassins attack the firm looking for a magical device that will give them control over Angel, and Wesley's estranged father arrives to evaluate his son for possible acceptance into the council.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're Talking about Season 5, Episode 7, Lineage, written by Drew Goddard, directed by Jefferson Kibby, aired November 12, 2003. And so on Buffy. But also, I've noticed a little bit on angel, the seventh episode, we've talked about how it's kind of the significant turning point for the season, and it typically kind of introduces or reinforces the central theme or conflict that's going to be explored in the following season. And while I don't feel like this is the strongest episode seven, I definitely feel like you walk away getting more of a sense of where the season's going to go with the ramping up conflict between angel and Spike, but then also just the undercurrent of, hey, angel has changed everybody's memories and that's probably going to be addressed. And, yeah, so there's a lot of little breadcrumbs in this episode. What'd you think?
[00:01:34] Speaker B: I thought it was great. It's a. It was a great episode. I feel like the cyborgs were a little cheesy and I don't really know why they made that decision. I'm sure you'll probably tell me why.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: I don't actually know, but I think.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: I think they were trying to go somewhere with it, but then when the show got canceled. Canceled, it was another. It was just a drop plot point, but.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: I mean, no, I thought it was a great episode. Very interesting.
Usually Wesley centric stuff is very interesting. And I love that we're seeing repeated stuff of Wesley's coming back up again, like stuff that they don't forget about, like his stuff with his dad. And obviously they brought up the memory wipe again and the father will kill the son and all this stuff. So I really enjoyed it. Um, Yeah. I don't know. What did you think?
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like, like, right from the get go, just with the opening shot, as you're going through the warehouse, you hear the conversation. Like, this episode does a really good job of establishing what it's talking about, but also, like this just sense of.
I don't know, it felt like a lot of season one stuff, like even just them being, like, angel bursting through a window in that first scene, and then just the conflicts and then the stuff that they're talking about, but also A lot of the stuff that they pulled back from there was stuff from. What was the one. The episode. I have it written down somewhere. It's the episode I've Got yout Under My Skin. There's a lot of callbacks to that episode.
I really felt like, like you said, all of the Wesley episodes. This is gonna sound so stupid, but all the Wesley episodes are so, so good. There's a reason why he's, like, a fan favorite, and it's because they consistently write really well for him. Um, but I kind of have, like, a little bit of beef because I'm like, why can't we write this consistently for the other characters? Why is Wesley so stinking interesting? Like, I. I kind of, like, get angry about it because I'm like, oh, I really like listening to his story and, like, learning more about him. But at the same time, it's just like, why can't we devote the same amount of energy to everybody else?
And I think that a lot of it is because this is why having representation in writers rooms is really important, because the people that are having their stories kind of set in the background are people like Gun and Fred, a woman, a black man. And so I think that the writers aren't really sure how to bring out the more unique parts of them. And for Wesley, he's very much like the nerdy white boy fantasy for a lot of these writers. They like the idea of, like, being the nerdy guy who gets the girl who becomes really empowered and stuff, and so. And it kind of feels like he's kind of a Joss Whedon insert in a lot of ways, too. Like, him being from. He went for a school for boys in Britain and his daddy issues and all that stuff. So it feels like Whedon and the writers really know what to do with Wesley, and it shows, but for everybody else, they just end up getting used as plot devices oftentimes for Wesley.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's one thing about this episode that I kind of noticed, like, having to do with Fred, I guess, kind of knowing what comes next for Fred.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: This episode kind of left a bad taste in that regard, and I didn't realize that they had started setting up that stuff. Like, I obviously don't want to spoil, but setting up certain things that will happen later as early as this episode. Because I could, like, see it plain as day all over this episode. Yep. But I agree. I think. I think we talked about this before, too. But I also think another part of it is just like Alexis Denisov has such Great range. And, like, I would say that Wesley is really well written, but I wouldn't say that he's likable all the way across. But he just has such a range of stories around him and to do with him in such a drastic character development arc that. Yeah, it's. It's definitely.
It's definitely unfair in some ways.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Don't get me wrong, it's freaking enjoyable to watch because you all know Wesley's my man, and I really like him a lot. But I just was watching, I was like, okay, we literally have two vampires with souls who have a Hundreds of years of history. An ex street kid who's black who used to fight vampires and now fights with a vampire and is now a prestigious lawyer. We have an actual demon from a different dimension. And then we have this girl that was. She's insanely smart, and she's trapped in a man's world. Like, there's just a lot that you could do. Like, on paper, it sounds like there's so much we could do with that, and we're just not really doing much. And so it's just like. I don't know, it's just, like, frustrating. That's not to take away from what I really love about this episode. But it was. I think I just watched this episode and was like, oh, missed potential for so. But for everybody else, you know, for.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Everybody else except Wesley, because Wesley gets all of it.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: It's fantastic. I mean, I'm going to be singing his praises for the rest of this episode, but I just felt the need to be like, oh, man.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: He especially even, like, most interesting character on the show consistently.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: And I say that as somebody who thinks, like, whose favorite character on the show is Angel.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: And I think that angel is a really interesting character, but I feel like they drop the ball on Angel's character more than they do on Wesley's character, which is crazy because he's not even the main character of the show. Right.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: And again. Right, Right. Do we not.
Well, is he. No. I don't know.
But yeah, that's not to like on the character or the article. Because he's.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: No, because it's still good.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Great for a reason. Yeah.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah. He's a fan favorite. He's. Yeah. It's a fantastic arc. It's very enjoyable. And it's just like, how this. What this episode does is. I don't think this episode tells us anything new about the character. I think what this episode does is it's an establishing episode. So like, we know from the beginning of the season that Joss really wanted to lure new viewers in. And so this season, a lot of it was, hey, we're going to review some stuff in the first third, because we want to catch everybody up. We're also trying to kind of erase season four a little bit. So this episode is more of a. We're going to introduce Wesley to new viewers, but we're also going to remind old viewers that he's still the same guy that kidnapped Connor. And I appreciate that because I think there's some ambiguity with how much does Wesley remember and how much does that impact him? Like, he mentioned Lila and beheading her. So I was like, there's clearly some stuff he remembers from season four.
I'd be very curious to know, like, what it is he remembers and doesn't. But I think that this episode does a lot of review for that kind of stuff and kind of, like, comparing with who he was in season one. There's also a lot of parallels between, like, Roger and Angel and their treatment of Wesley. And we've known for seasons now that Wesley doesn't necessarily look up to Angels like a father figure. It's more like an older brother figure, but that angel is someone he desperately wants approval from. From. And so we've kind of had to watch him separate himself out from angel and also make really hard decisions and choices that he knew angel wasn't going to like.
And so I think that this episode is also bringing up all the prophecy stuff. And I also was super shocked by. I think there's undercurrents of the episode, kind of putting to bed the argument of, oh, should Wesley have kidnapped Connor or shouldn't Wesley have kidnapped Connor? I kind of felt like they were being like, hey, he did the right thing.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Yeah, 1,000%. 1,000%. I was a little shocked at that, and I was just like, okay, I guess that. I guess that's what we're doing.
Which I feel like if you had watched season four, you could have come to that conclusion on your own.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: With the way it's revealed he was acting right off the bat from the second episode.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: So. So, yep.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah. But you can kind of see what they're doing. They're already kind of placing the puzzle pieces for when inevitably, that becomes undone or Wesley finds out or whatever. Because what they're trying to do is drawing parallels between what angel did at the end of season four and what Wesley did with Connor. And I think they're trying to show even, like, why Wesley is beneficial for the gang because he's willing to do the hard thing and how angel has even learned from that and that angel can now empathize with that.
So, yeah, it was very interesting.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: I was like, and yet Wesley has still never apologized.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Because he did the right thing, Leia.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: For anything in his life. Not ever. Not even once.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: That seems to be a common theme with some of these male characters in the Buffy verse, like Xander.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Spook.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Spook.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: You'll never catch him apologizing for nothing.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And, you know, season seven, he's all like, I can't apologize for what I did. We talk about this in season three. I could never apologize. We're like, yeah, but it's a start.
It would be great to hear those words. You need to hear these words.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: I mean, this is a TV show. They're not gonna have scenes of characters sitting there being like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: And yet they have Buffy doing it, like, every episode for things that aren't even her fault.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
Any home.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyways, all right. I really am not salty. I love this episode. If you heard me talk about this episode in spoilers or not spoilers, but, like, when we did season recaps. This is actually one of my favorite episodes of this show. I know you guys are shocked.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Are you sure?
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Everyone's like, what? This is me just trying to be, like, you know, as unbiased as I can. This is one of my favorite episodes of the show. Season five holds a lot of my favorites. I especially love the scene at the very end, which I went back and watched like, six times, because that's. That's what I do. Really like it a lot.
Also, I'm a sucker for a guy in a button down with it rolled up so you can see his forearms. I'm a forearms girl.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: You know what my favorite scene of this episode is? That it's so hard.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, yeah.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: The scene where Spike. Well, it's two scenes technically, but it's, like, one long scene. But when Spike and Angel are just trying to make Wesley feel better, and they're like, hey, it's okay. We ate our parents.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: I love how he, like, puts his. Wesley puts his hands up.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: He's like, please, please.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: I can't hear anything else.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: I feel so much better already. I don't need to hear anymore.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: They're just trying so hard to make him feel better. And he's like, it's not the same, guys. It's not the same.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: That was so funny. Spike was Hilarious. In this episode, I. I really enjoyed him.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: He actually was.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: He was so funny. I was like, cackling every time he would pop up on screen and just say the craziest shit you've ever heard in your life.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah, he was having a blast. You can kind of see he's kind of coming to terms with being not corporeal. And he's, like doing the best he can to just make. Make the best of it, you know?
[00:12:56] Speaker B: So when he's like, oh, how do I help Eve? And he's like, I don't fucking care.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Why wait, I don't want to help. He like, watches, like, by the way, I'm still in the elevator. I like how he just walks out and leaves her in there.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Leave her in there. She'll get out eventually.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: You'll never take me, Babain. And then he's like, sorry I say that sometimes.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: The way I genuinely almost choked on my own tongue laughing at that.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: I was very funny.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Anyway, all right. We're, like, jumping ahead. But yes, he was. He was very funny. That was the thing about this episode. It was just. It was well written, it was deep.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: The.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: There was great character moments in chemistry. I don't know, it just from the get go. There was just something special about this episode and I just thoroughly enjoyed it. But let's see. Oh, yes. So I talked about the callbacks to have got you under my skin. So we have that moment where Wesley says a father doesn't have to be possessed to terrorize his children. And then there's hints in that episode with Bethany. I can never remember what it's called, Untouched, where he talks about a little bit, like, he kind of gets under her skin and it's like, oh, hey, Wesley, maybe you're speaking from experience here. Like, there's a lot of big red flags that his father has been abusive to him. Yeah.
So we're going back to the fatherhood themes of the earlier seasons. In season one and two, we talked a lot about angel kind of taking on the big brother kind of father, like, mentor, like role with Wesley, how Wesley tried so hard to be like him and guys will be guys. And in I've got you under my Skin, angel was blaming him for the loss of Doyle. And Tim Minier made a direct parallel between the father of the boy and angel in that episode and how both those men are trying to keep their families together. And I thought that actually, like, was very relevant to this episode. So I'm going to read that quote again. So he's talking this is Tim Minear talking about I've Got yout Under My Skin, but it also works in the context of this episode, he says. Later in season one, we did an episode called I've Got yout Under My Skin about a possessed kid, and the group tries to help the family. This was one of the very early scripts that we wrote before Doyle was killed. The thing I pitched Joss was the parallels between this family and our little family. My idea was that angel should accidentally call Wesley Doyle, because it should be about these two men who lose a son at the end of the story. The father loses his son, and at the beginning of the story, angel has lost a in quotation son, sort of. Those two men are desperately trying to keep their family together, and through no fault of their own, they can't. And so, like, I think this works really well with kind of the loss of conviction that Angel's been feeling this season ever since the events of season four with Connor and Cordelia, and then just kind of everybody kind of falling apart. And I think also his goals and his dream of having his own family have just kind of fallen by the wayside. And so he's become very disenfranchised. And so this episode, he's taking out a lot of that stuff. Stuff on Wesley, because even though he knows Wesley isn't necessarily, like, directly responsible, I think he's also, like, blaming himself in a lot of ways, too. And he just is choosing to take it out on Wes.
So that episode, I've got you Under My Skin was also the episode where angel fully accepts Wesley for his own strengths and not just as a Doyle substitute. We see that at the end of this episode where angel kind of realizes, oh, Wesley has strengths, and that he's willing to do the. The hard thing, even if it comes at personal cost for himself. And angel can now personally understand what that feels like. Um, and so we have Wesley struggling to belong and feel confident about his own abilities here. And also. And I've got you under my skin. And then when angel called him Doyle in that episode, it makes him feel even more insecure, and it just continues on. And, yeah, I've got to say, they did an excellent job of preparing us for Wesley's father. I know it was a robot, but given how Wesley acts, it's got to be pretty accurate.
Yeah, this guy. This guy had some pretty big shoes to fill because I think the actor does a phenomenal job. We'll talk about him in a second.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I hadn't realized that we've Never actually seen.
We've never actually seen his dad on screen, have we?
[00:17:13] Speaker A: No, we haven't.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Oh, I always thought that we did, but that's because I've already seen this episode, and we're relaunching this show.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: No, Lena.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, That's Roger. You didn't know.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah. You're like my buddy, old buddy, old pal. Saw him, like, three other times. No, we've never seen him before, which I think is just.
It's such an interesting premise, and I really enjoy it, but. All right, jumping into the episode. So we start off in the warehouse, and we have Emil, this man, talking. He has a French accent, and he's flanked by two very large white guys sitting across the table from Wesley. He says it comes down to trust. Ours is a dangerous business. Friends, enemies. These lines do not exist for men like us. There's no Better Business Bureau for what we do. Customer complaints are dealt with through killing, torture, beating, sometimes fire. Which is an excellent setup for this episode and also an excellent setup for the premise of this season. It's a dangerous business. You have to trust people. But, like, you ultimately are going to do what you have to have business about it. Yeah. You can't do these things if you don't have conviction, though, or else you're going to be eaten alive by guilt.
And you can say that this is kind of a. Like, it's a great way to set the tone for Wesley's character, but also, this is very similar to the way that the council operates as well.
The actor who plays Emile was previously mentioned in Spin the Bottle when Wesley tells one of his men that if the weapon he got works out in the field, Emile would be hearing from him again. That's another episode that told us more about Wesley's life as a boy and also had him regressing a bit.
And we kind of saw how he uses weapons as a shield. Yes. As a. As head boy. Worst name ever. I'm sorry, Brits, what are you thinking? Like, even you guys have to know, every time I hear it, my mind goes to dirty places. And I know I'm not the only one, because Spike thought the same thing.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Well, Spike is a pervert, so.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Wow. What are you. What are you saying about me, Leia?
[00:19:14] Speaker B: You're a pervert like Spike for thinking about Sarah.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: So true. It's not like the show hasn't, like, poked fun at that, like, three times. This. This show. The entire time, anyway. Yeah, but the actor who plays Emile, his name is Trevor Etienne. It's French. He plays Tamiel and Angel, or Archangel and Supernatural. But he's probably best known and recognized for his role in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. He's the guy in that iconic shot, like, it's. It's in every trailer, who reaches through the cell bars when talking to Jack Sparrow and, like, grabs him around the neck and his arm turns to, like, a skeleton through the moon. And it's the first instance you see of the curse. And that's him. That's Emil. So good for him. Yeah. What a. What a legacy, right?
All right, so Wesley's trying to negotiate the weapons, and they are, like, not really listening. And Wesley's like, you know, trying to play hardball. And then he's like, all right, I'm gonna call in my muscle. And he calls in Fred.
I'm curious your thoughts about the seed. So, like, Fred comes in, and then she's, like, pulling out this gun, and she's like, you know, terrible about it while putting it in, putting it all together. And then Emil's like, God, you're making me so hot right now. And then Fred's like, wow. Turned on by a woman holding an enormous gun. What a surprise. And then, like, she keeps going. And I thought to myself, I was like, this is the most Joss Whedon s. Yeah. Scene ever. Because there's this. I. I think he literally is, like, patting himself on the back, like, look at me being so subversive. And, like, the tiny girl with the gun. And, like, we're gonna poke fun at the fact that, like, every guy is going to sexualize her. But, like, wow, she's so self aware and. But yet he still puts her in this position of doing this. Yeah.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: And that's. That's the thing that bothered me the most about this episode is just like, this episode was putting Fred in situations that she didn't have to be in in order to progress Wesley's plot, in order to give Wesley a reason to do stuff.
In order to. Yeah. Like, it just felt like she was being used as a, like, a plot device.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: She was.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: And they were putting her in really weird situations that, like, she wouldn't otherwise be in. Like, since when has Fred gone into situations like this before? Fred doesn't know how to fight. Fred is a human. Can she take care of herself? You know what I mean? Like, and then they try to make it seem like it's, like, so offensive that they're asking. They're, like, worried that she's there. And I'm like, but. But, Fred, you're A human.
And you don't know how to fight, like, a. Like a superhero, like Cordelia allegedly does, because she also doesn't know how to.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Fight Cordina catching strays. And she's not even in the show.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: She's not even here. But I'm still pissed.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, just, whoa. Okay.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: It just. And again, I don't know if it's. Because I know what comes next.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that definitely colors it, but how can you not.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just see it all over this episode, and I'm like, already? Like, we're already doing this.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Episode seven. Really?
[00:22:38] Speaker A: They have been doing it this whole season, though, already. It's just been somewhere, I think. Yeah.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: I don't know if they have, like. I can see them pushing the Wesley Fred thing more, but I feel like they've also had Fred have, like, more agency. Like, she's done stuff for herself to say something about her character. Whereas I feel like this episode, Fred was there to push Wesley. And I also just hate the entire concept of, like, that scene where he shoots his dad because he pointed the gun at Fred and then he says that to her later on. Like, am I supposed to think that that's romantic or something?
[00:23:18] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's hot. But I also do agree with you the fact that, like, it puts a lot on Fred's shoulders. Like, he's like, hey, I shot my dad because it was Fred. And then she's sitting there, like, hang on. I don't reciprocate those feelings. And I didn't ask you to do that, you know, like.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. It's giving Spike saying, I got myself for you, Buffy. Now why don't you love me? It's kind of how it feels, you know?
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Who asked you to do that?
[00:23:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's actually the bare minimum to shoot someone who's threatening your friend.
Maybe that's.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: I think we're meant to see it as some grand gesture. And she's, like, moved by it because it's his father. But it's just. It's the fact that that had to be used to, like, encourage Wesley to shoot his father.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: You're ruining the scene for me, Leia.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Wesley's father had. Angel had taken Angel's free will. And angel was, like, writhing on the floor.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: That's enough of a thing.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: That broke the camel's back was when Roger Robot fucking Wyndham Price pointed the gun. Pointed the gun at Fred.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: We're Roger Robot, okay? Oh, my gosh.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: And Then he's going to go and tell her that he feels terrible because he did it for her. I'm like, man, break cut. Me cut. Just give me a break.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's the thing. There's just, like. There's such a false feminism to this episode where they're. They're like, oh, my gosh, we're giving. Yes, but in this episode in particular, it was just very, very obvious, like, you're gonna have the bad guy sexualize her, even though that's what everyone's. Everyone knows.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: That's why she will stick up to her honor.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Just. I don't know. It just felt very icky and weird, and I didn't like it. But anyway.
All right, so we have.
What happens next? Oh, yes. Then somebody comes out, and we get, like, this fishing hook thing that gets stuck. That was pretty graphic. The sound effects were gross. It, like, goes in this guy's throat, and then Wesley pushes Fred out of the way, and then he grabs two guns and just, like, takes off with another slow Mosley move. Yes. Thank you, Wesley. I'd love a gun. I was like, yeah. Honestly. So he shoots at Emil.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: I would have gone in there fully strapped, honestly.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm shocked.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: He's every crevice.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like that Pirates of the Caribbean scene. Have you seen Pirates of the Caribbean?
[00:26:04] Speaker B: I've seen. I've seen it once, a long time ago, so I absolutely don't remember a single thing. I'm sorry.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Okay. Well, do you have.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: I mostly watched it for Orlando Bloom.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I love Orlando Bloom. Have you seen the second one?
[00:26:18] Speaker B: No.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, back to the beginning, guys. Here we are.
Okay, well, in the second one, there's.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Even if I did, there's a 99.99 chance that I don't remember what happened.
More than likely.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: I don't know why I'm disappointed. I should expect this.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: You shouldn't be disappointed because it's actually my problem.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: We've been doing this for nearly four years.
Has to know better by now. Has it?
[00:26:47] Speaker A: I don't think it's been four. Is it three years?
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Three. Whatever scene's like.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: It feels like 84 years.
84 years, yes. But there's a scene in the second one where they have to go somewhere and they, like that gag where they just keep pulling bigger and bigger guns out of their clothes and stuff. But if you haven't seen it, then it just doesn't make any sense. So anyway.
Yeah, it's all right. So they're fighting anyway, and then they realize that they're actually fighting these. What we end up finding out are the robots. They come in, and one of them kills Emile. And then all of a sudden, we have angel bursting. I have to tell you, this is the most attractive angel has been to me all season long. And I don't know if it was. I think his hair looks like it's back to normal. He's. He also had, like, his, his shirt unbuttoned, like, halfway down.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Sarah has it.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: Okay. I just now noticed we lose the window.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: And it just slower and lower.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: He's. He's a little insecure with Spike around.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: So he feels soon enough we're just gonna not have a shirt anymore. That's what I'm working on.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: I'd be okay with that.
But, yeah, he burst through the warehouse through another window, and I was like, hey, you know what? We truly are going back to the basics. Another day, another window.
Yeah, this is the hottest he's looked me all season. So then they all fight, and, you know, they end up discovering that it's a robot. And then they hear Fred moaning. Then they go back, and she has been hit through the shoulder. I thought it was a gunshot, but apparently it was one of the hooks that went through her shoulder.
Yeah, Poor Fred. Anyway, Wesley looks completely devastated. And that's when I realized, oh, it's a Wesley episode, and Fred's gonna be used as a plot device, and Wesley's just gonna be feeling lots of guilt. So that's great. Dampen my love for the episode a little bit.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: But how much I love it. I love man pain. So cute.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Drosta. It's a for it.
All right, so then now we are in Angel's office, and Wesley's getting dressed down as angels, like, she could have been killed. And Eve's like, hey, the medic says that she should be fine. Which I was like, dude, you got a grappling hook through your shoulder. I, I, I don't think that's the same as, like, a surgical. Like, it's not the same as having surgery. Eve, like, why was she there? So much shadow.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Like, she just followed him everywhere.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: I know now that they have sex, they have a connection. Sorry.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: They had. They did it once. Just.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: They're soul mates.
[00:29:23] Speaker B: Soul. Oh, my God, I'll throw up.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Acceptable happiness is what it is.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: That's weird.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: It is. Okay, so then Angel's like, that's not the point. What was Fred doing there in the first place? Wesley's like, I needed someone who could explain the weapon convincingly. And we're like, you don't have a.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: Bunch of PowerPoint presentations. Imagine if he had rolled shadow puppets with, like, an old school laptop. The big ones, the giant bulky ones. And he opens it up and it's a PowerPoint presentation that Fred made because obviously. And it's perfect. And it has graphs and it explains everything. And it's better than those in danger's way.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: They took. What was it? Fred's head off of, like, the. From that one. Oh, it was Provider from that one episode. They had the crappy power.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: No, I don't remember, actually.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: That would have been actually really funny.
Anyway. All right. Angel's like, nobody else here knows how to explain a gun. And I was like, honestly, I'm kind of with angel here. And Wesley's like, I needed someone who wouldn't arouse a meal. Suspicion. Someone I could trust. But the thing is, they don't explain why.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Like, they could have picked Honestly knocked with Emile before. So what's the problem this time? Yeah, why is Emil suspicious working at Wolfram and Hart now? Maybe because it's like a Wolfram and Heart deal. I don't know.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the whole thing with Emile was like, we have to trust each other. So that was kind of the setup for it.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: But, yeah, he could have brought gun. Gun knows a lot of things now about everything.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: But gun also looks scary because he's very tall.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: He looks like a lawyer.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair. Okay, so Angel's like, that was reckless. She shouldn't have been there. Wesley's like, she's more than proven herself in the field. There was no reason to think. And here's the thing. I am all for feminism, and I'm all for girls being in guys. I say in quotations. Guys, fields, guys, arenas, and vice versa. But we still have to be logical and reasonable about things, you know?
[00:31:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Like, there are certain places that certain people should not go. Doesn't necessarily mean because it's their gender, but it means because they are not equipped to handle those things. Also, Wesley should have given her a gun. Okay. Or two.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Or three.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Well, I think it's also. I mean, this happened in season four, too. I think there was an episode where angel was mad at Cordelia and he didn't want her to come with them to, like, fetch Connor or something. So then he asked Fred to go instead. And I remember in that episode, I said that he was like, fred, let's go. And I was like, in that episode. That's a Bad idea. Because one, Fred can't defend herself against, like, a million zombies. And two, you're going to be spending more time trying to protect Fred, and that's going to put you in danger, and it's going to put Fred in danger, and it's going to put everyone else in danger. So why do that? You know, like, everybody has their strengths, and if is going to go down, why would you want to put her in harm's way? I don't know. It's just. But I feel like also, this show.
This show doesn't really put an emphasis on human strength versus demon strength. And I feel like everybody just does everything, so it is what it is, you know?
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: They do this.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Well, she ended up being able to, like, override the elevator, so that kind of showed why angel wanted her. But, yeah, it's still a flimsy argument.
So angel kind of browbeats. Wesleyan is like, from now on, you clear it with me before using any of my people. And Wesley clocks that. And it's like, your people. And I was like, oh, man, what happened to, like, being a team trust? Like, there's a. Again, a lot of parallels between Angel's treatment of Wesley and Roger's treatment of Wesley.
So then Wesley leaves. Eve's like, hey, you were kind of hard on him. And then she.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Eve.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: But she does kind of clock him. She's like, I think you're making too big of a deal about it. Like, her wound wasn't that severe. And she's like, I think that you're, you know, focusing on this because you're upset that he kidnapped your son. And she kind of talks about how.
I mean, she's not wrong. She clocks him, which, here's my beef. That happened two seasons ago. And they just don't really address it.
Like, why. Why did we wait two seasons to talk about. I don't know, whatever. Sure, it's convenient for them to bring it up now.
So then Angel's like, we don't talk about my son. Get my son's name out of your mouth. And then she says, you don't trust Wesley, do you? I mean, I can see that he did turn Connor over to sworn enemy. Angel says he didn't mean for that to happen. He thought he was doing the right thing. And Eve's like, well, I guess it all worked out. You know, maybe Wesley knew what he was doing after all, even if he doesn't remember any of it. Ooh, the subtle little jab, too. Hey, you kind of did something similar.
Yeah. So Then angel says, I just want to be kept informed. That's all. And Eve says, is it? Or are you worried about the next time Wesley betrays you, trying to do the right thing? Thing?
Yeah.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: And I think this is where Eve underestimates Angel or at least misunderstands angel, because that's something that angel wants in the people. That's what makes angel trust somebody.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Is if they're willing to do what other people don't want to do. Like killing him, for example.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: So I think this is where Eve will find that she is wrong, actually, about Angel.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: But then it's also just, like, hard, too, because it's like, what does Wesley remember and what aspects of his character are retained because of it? Like, did Wesley make those hard choices in season three? Because.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Well, I think. I think we're meant to assume that he doesn't remember anything that had to do with Connor. So something else must have occurred for him to. Maybe. Maybe nothing happened. Maybe he got together with Lila for some reason. I don't know. It's. It's hard to say because I feel like we're just meant to assume that they don't know anything. Yeah, that happened.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
I don't know. So then Wesley's office. Fred comes in, and she's got a sling, and she says, I'm doing great. They are just on a bunch of antibiotic. And then, oh, hey, we're taking the cyborg apart in the lab. You want to come down and see how intricate it is? And then Wesley's like, sorry for what happened. Oh, he can't apologize. Look at this. Shocking.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Only to Fred.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Only to Fred. Yeah.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Because he loves her.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: Okay. Does he not love Angel? No, I guess he does not. He didn't shoot his father. He didn't shoot his father for.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Yeah, he was going to let angel get free willed, jacked.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: He was like, all right, I'll do a trade. You give me Fred, I'll give you Angel.
Then Fred is like, I feel bad because all I had to do was hide, and I couldn't even do that right. I'm like, fred, stop apologizing. And then Wesley's like, I should have done a better job protecting you.
And then, of course, this is the thing that kind of pricks Fred and dry. Like, it really irritates her. Because if we remember back in super symmetry, the reason why her and Gun, kind of like the catalyst or the starting point for them breaking up was because Gun didn't trust her and. Or was trying to protect her. And Then he ended up killing somebody for her. And she says, do you realize how patronizing that sounds? Protecting me? And then Wesley says, I just mean you shouldn't have been there in the first place. And she says, it's not for you to decide. He says, yes, it is, actually. I made the call. I screwed up. And then she says, you're coming off as a self pitying child. And then Wesley's like, oh, hello father.
And Fred doesn't realize that his dad's there is like, oh, yeah, that's real mature. Well, I wish I was your father. I'd tell you to grow up. And then we hear Roger say, it doesn't work. I've tried.
And just right off the bat we get the vibes. We get it terrible. And then Roger says, I see manners are still my son's strong point. And okay, so this is probably the most interesting fact I have about this entire episode. So buckle up guys.
This actor who plays Roger, Wyndham Price, his name is Roy Doubtress. So this is, this is the guy's backstory. He was born in 1923 on the island of Guernsey, which is part of the United Kingdom's one of the Channel Islands off the coast of France. He was the firstborn child of bakers. The Germans occupied the island in 1940 and he and his mother and brother escaped to England. So then he lied about his age once he was in England and joined the Royal Air force at age 16 and was trained as a wireless operator and air gunner. In 1942, his plane was shot down and he was captured where he served out the remainder of World War II, which over three years as a prisoner of war in Germany. Oh yeah. He was then introduced to the idea of performing when he took part in various makeshift concerts in order to raise the spirits of his fellow captives. And so then the war ended and he decided to pursue an acting career. So then he studied at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. He began to appear in English repertory where he met and married his wife, actress Kay Doutress, who at the time was performing under her given name of Catherine Newman. Throughout the early post war years, the couple performed together in repertory with Charles Denville and the Denville Players. At different times he was a member of the Liverpool, Manchester and Oldham repertory theaters. Also during this great time of productivity, Roy produced and directed some 300 stage place. He formed his own troupe, the Guernsey theater company in 1955 and he wasn't even 30 yet.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: This is all before, like 1960.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah, this is 1955. He's not even, he's not even 30 yet. That's crazy. The highlight of his theatrical career, however, began in 1957 when Roy became a member of the Shakespeare Memorial Theater at Stratford, England.
And then he went on to perform a bunch of like really notable roles and like one man plays. And then he eventually performed at the American Shakespearean Festival. He still says to hit this day, though. Well, I guess he's dead now. But he said until his dying day I was gonna. Yeah, he's, he's passed. But he said that his crowning rip, his crowning achievement was introducing baseball to the Royal Shakespearean Theater because they were huge cricket fans and they had knew nothing about baseball. And I forget I didn't write it down, but there were several, like massive big name people that like were on his team and stuff and he taught them all how to play baseball, which is pretty cool. But get this. So he eventually. This is just crazy. So at one time he, he. Where is it? Oh, yeah. So he did a lot of one person shows. He played for over 1, 700 performances over a period of nearly a decade, like doing theater. And if anyone has done theater, that is. That is exhausting. At one time, this set a record for a solo performance and was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: Oh, my God, no.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: And I'm not done yet.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Is this man.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I want to live the full life that he has lived. So then he enjoyed a bunch of reoccurring roles on British TV series Life Begins. He made his last TV appearance on two 2012 episodes of Game of Thrones as Holland. Yeah. He was entered into the Guinness Book of World Records for his voice work on the audiobook version of George R.R. martin's novels, a Game of Thrones. That project was cited as having the greatest number of characters. He voiced 224 characters ever voiced by a single person in an audiobook.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: So he's a beast.
[00:41:25] Speaker A: He almost made it into the Guinness Book of World Records again for that. Doubtress's audiobooks. For the first five books of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire have a combined running time of approximately 201 hours. He later appeared on Game of Thrones as those. As one of those characters. So he was voicing in the book and then got cast into the TV show.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: That's crazy.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So then him and his wife, they were married for. Yeah, there's more.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: What else can you possibly have done in your life? There's only so much life to live.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: How do you do all this I just was like, I called my husband over. I was like, andrew, this guy is amazing.
[00:42:06] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: So him and his wife, they were married for 60 years of marriage, and they had three daughters. And his daughter is most famous for her name is Karen. She was the little girl in Mary Poppins.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Isn't that cool? So crazy. His legacy lives on. Yeah. When did he pass in October 16, 2017. So, like, seven years ago.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: R.I.P.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Legend.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: What a legend. Yeah.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly, what an accomplished life. Like, he literally did everything.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Yeah. At 16 years old, was like, I'm gonna go fight the Germans. I'm gonna lie about my age. Then gets captured and decides, hey, you know what? I actually think I want to be an actor. And then was like, I'm gonna be the actoriest actor there ever was. And then got cast onto, like, literally one of the best ever. Like. Yeah.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: He was like, you think you're a great actor? Wait till you see what I can do.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, like, his role here on this episode, they really. They had to pick someone who had layers, because perfectly cast. He was perfect. Like, the way he delivers these lines, there's, like, three different meanings to them. And it's just. It's so good. And it's just really fun, too, to see Alexis Denisovan playing against someone who's also good. Like, there's nothing better than watching two very good actors do what they're good.
[00:43:33] Speaker B: At, but also really impressive because Alexis Denisoff isn't actually English.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that is true.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: And the fact that he was able to be in a scene with, like, a British person, and he's always sounded great doing the accent, but he was, like, very English.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He, like, pulled it out even more.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, that's the most interesting fact I have, but I thought that was pretty stinking great. I was like, we'd probably do a whole podcast episode on this guy's life alone.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: I love it. They should make a movie about his life, literally. I'd watch it.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I would too. So then Fred realizes that this is Wes's dad and then realizes that she just embarrassed him. Is like, oh, it wasn't really, you know, talking about, you know, him. She's like, you know, it's for my, you know, employee that I have to go berate. So she leaves. And of course, Roger sees right through it.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: So funny, because Fred is so worried for dragging Wesley in front of his dad. Meanwhile, Wesley's dad is his biggest op. Like, he's been bullying him since he was shy.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: His dad's like, ah, finally, others see him.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: That's it.
More.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: He's like, he can go lower.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: I love this moment where Wesley asks if his mom's all right. And he's like, she's fine. Sturdy as ever. I was like, oh, this guy's just waiting for her to die off.
And sturdy as ever. He's like, I know.
Then Wes is like, oh. Like, you could tell he's, like, bummed out. He's like, oh, you're here for business. Like, of course you would be. His body language, the way that he starts to kind of, like, curve in on himself. He, like, holds his hands, like, trying to protect himself. Turning into that little boy.
Yep. So Roger's like, hey, you know, the Watchers Council was destroyed last year. We're actually trying to get it back up, and I've been sent to contact you. I was like, oh, does Buffy know about this? And then Wesley's like, hang on. Are you saying the Council wants me to come back? Roger's like, not necessarily. Your name's proven to be a point of contention. And he's like, you know, you're an embarrassment. And Wesley's like, really? I beat out everybody dying in an explosion as most embarrassing failures. Like, yes, Wesley, Fight. Fight back. Let's go.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: He wasn't even that embarrassing. He had no chance against Buffy.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Like, and Faith.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: And Faith.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: And Giles, they were. They all ganged up on him.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. Wesley, he's the victim here.
Lest we forget.
Rogers, like, friends and colleagues, lost their lives in that event. Wesley, show some respect. He's like, sorry.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Sorry. Sorry, dad.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: Roger's like, the Council's agreed to take you back prior. Or, like, pending my assessment, I'm here to evaluate you. Wesley's like, well, we'll see. Like. Or, actually, I'm going to save you the trouble. I'm not interested. Then gets up to go walk to the door, and Roger's like, you know, this is giving you a chance to clear your name. Our name. Oh, this guy just knows, like, the right buttons to push. And then Wesley's like, I'm perfectly happy with where I am. Roger pokes at the fact that it's Wolfram and Hart. And then, you know, Wesley then hits the doorway, like, stumbles into a woman. And then this is where we start seeing him fumbling and bumbling about. But it's interesting, because in the past, it was also very comedic, but here, it's just kind of awkward and sad and.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it is very sad.
[00:47:00] Speaker A: So then, you know, Roger's like, the atrocities committed by Wolfram and Hart are quite well documented. And Wesley's like, well, we're working to change that. Like, believe me, we take our work here very seriously. Lauren shows up, still talking on his cell phone to somebody else, looking absolutely fabulous in a red suit, yellow necktie. Looked so good. And then he's like, wesley, Wyndham Price, you should be ashamed. I didn't know you had a younger brother. And this is. This part cracks me up, because you could tell everybody's been informed, probably by Fred. And she's like, hey, guys, make Wesley look really good. So everybody's, like, coming out, trying to, like, you know, hype him up.
And Roger's just like, guys, I know who this pool is. I raised him. There's no making him look better in my eyes.
And then Lauren just starts talking about how, like, he, you know, Winston Churchill and a young Richard Harris had a beautiful love child, which, according to my sources, may not be as ridiculous as it sounds. And, like, Wesley puts his hand up, like, hey, maybe like, stop. He's like, shut up. Shut up. My dad's a bigot. And then Wesley's like, hey, Lauren runs our entertainment division. And then Roger's like, wow, I could see how that would be very useful against the fight against evil. Gun comes down. Gun is introduced to Roger as well, and, you know, again is trying to hype up Wesley. And Roger's just shooting everything that they're throwing at him down. And then Gun invites them both to the lab to go check on the robot. So in the science lab, angel and his shadow, Eve are standing over the opened corpse of the cyborg while Fred explains what she's found.
She says that they think that it might have been human at one point, but. But that the nervous system seems humanoid, but the technology is very foreign. They aren't really sure who made it, where it's coming from. It's kind of blurring the line between human and robot. Spike, meanwhile, is trying to, like, grab more things. He's working on his. His mobile. What is it? Like, his fine motor skills, trying to grab some stuff. And he's like, aha. And then he's like, so you're not ruling out that a human being could have buffed a robot? Sex with robots. More common than most people.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: No, Spike.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: I really did. Robots.
Yeah.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: We really didn't need to talk about this.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: It's not necessary.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: Oh, my God. What a. Disgusting.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Yeah, so everyone kind of, like, stares at him. They're like. Anyway. And then Angel's like, we want to figure out who it is or what it wanted. And then Spike ends up knocking a beaker off of the counter. But of course, yeah, he's like, yay. And then, of course, Eve takes note of this, and she seems to be thinking about something. And then Knox. Knox is also there. And then Wesley and his father come in. He introduces. And then, you know, angel goes up and is like, hey, let me, like, shake your hand. He's like, you know, because I'm not really a hugger guy. And then Roger just, like, stares at his hand. He also doesn't want to have anything to do with Spike, who apparently he has history with when he found him slaughtering. This was an orphan.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: So funny. When he's like, so, how you been?
[00:50:10] Speaker A: Spike's like, I don't know what to say to that.
[00:50:12] Speaker B: He's like, okay, I'm gonna go.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: He's like, what else can you say?
Angel being like, I'm not really comfortable with hugging. And he's like, no. I realize this might be somewhat of a horror show to you, but I hope you can keep an open mind. We really are doing good work here. And Roger's like, so I'm told now. Incessantly, in fact. So then Wesley and Roger go over to take a look at the robot. You have that moment where angel and Wes kind, of, like, have this look, but they're like, he's a piece of work. And, you know, Wesley feeling the need to overcompensate and, like, show off to his dad and also probably, like, show up to Fred because Knox is there, is like, yeah. So I. I think that it's this. And this symbols and all this other stuff and. Oh, yeah, and that's. That's right when Roger talks about how the Academy didn't make him head boy for nothing. And this gets Spike's attention. And you could tell he's mentally cataloging that and is like, I'm saving that for later when I need to pull that.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: Spike has, like, little files. Spike is like the Buffy bot. Maybe that's why he liked the Buffy bot so much, other than the fact that he was having sex with a robot that looked like Buffy because Buffy rejected him. But anyway, I feel like Leia's just.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Like, inserting all her controversial personal opinions for the entire Buffy one out.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Controversial? That was nasty.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: I mean, I don't think it is, but some people do.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Anywho, I just. I think Spike, especially now that he's not corporeal and he has so much time on his Hands. And all he does is watch people. He has, like, little folders in his brain where he keeps, like, your deepest, darkest secrets and then he blackmails you with them. Yeah, I love it because I would do the same thing if I knew all your secrets. I would just store them in my brain and then I would drag you later.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And create chaos. Because what else can you do to entertain yourself?
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Entertainment. Things like non stop entertainment, just with the words.
[00:52:19] Speaker A: Very similar to what Spike did in season four of Buffy when she checked. Yeah, he did it. But also, like, when he didn't know that he could go fight demons. Like, all he did was just poke at people because that's all he could do. Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:31] Speaker B: And he's so good at it.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: He's very good. And he honestly, he's the most entertaining when he's like.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: He's so.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: I really enjoy it.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I was laughing so hard every time he would pop up on screen. He is truly like the little child of this.
[00:52:46] Speaker A: And he's so entertaining because everybody else is just taking everything so seriously. It's just really fun to watch him.
So in his effort to impress his father and Fred and everybody, Wesley ends up activating some sort of a bomb. The device starts beeping and then, you know, he's like, all right, everybody needs to get out.
And he, like, tries to get Fred out of there. And then she's like, no, Wesley, what about you? And he's like, I'll stay with the bomb, try to diffuse it. It could be our only. And then the device stops ringing and there's Roger. And he's like, actually, these symbols were dew. Tropic in origin, not Mauritian or whatever. He says, as you surmised, when interpreted correctly, these symbols spell out the proper procedure for handling the cyborg's power core, including the fail safe in case someone trips the self destruct device.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Very convenient, isn't it, Roger?
[00:53:38] Speaker A: But then as he's doing this, spikes over there, like, oh, really fast. Like, interesting. Like about take notes. Also, he was, like, about to leave, too. And he's like, why am I trying to leave? I'm non corporeal.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: He was. He was in such a, like, hurry. So scared.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: And then about ready to, like, call everybody over, and he's like, hang on. Yeah, literally. Oh, my gosh.
Such a menace. So funny, though.
So now we're back in Angel's office again, and Angel's like, what happened? As he's looking at Fred and Wesley, Spike just jumps in and is like, I can explain apparently, when Percy here was younger, he used to be known as Head Boy. And angel goes, yeah, I already knew that. And Spike's like, right, well, I have nothing else to report. And then just, like, walks away. And Wesley's just like, okay, so I tripped the cyborg self destruct mechanism. Fred tries to stick up for him, is like, anyone could have made that mistake. Wesley's like, yeah, my dad was there to correct my error. And Angel's like, yes, well, where is your dad anyway? And then Fred's like, well, Lord's keeping him entertained. And then we get a quick flash to a very bored Roger sitting there as Lauren's, like, going on and on about his Hollywood friends. And then Fred's like, yeah, hang on. That it's actually probably not a good idea. I'll go rescue him.
And then Spike's like, yeah, I'm done here, too. If you want, I can have someone type up that report about Head Boy. And Angel's just like, go away, please.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Why don't you do it? I know you have the will.
[00:55:11] Speaker A: He does.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: He has the will. He wants it bad enough. He can do it.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: Hours, as he sits there and has to focus on each letter that he.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Tries to type, taking into account that Spike doesn't know how to use a computer. Because, let's be honest, Spike definitely doesn't know how to use a computer. He would get even less so than angel, and she probably would do it. Oh, my God, Harmony would so do it.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: He's like, hey, Harmony, I'm a really important.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: I feel like he would really bully her, though, and he has to be someone else.
[00:55:39] Speaker A: I mean, I don't see any other secretaries out there, but maybe there are more.
[00:55:43] Speaker B: He can find one. Just leave Harmony alone.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: We haven't seen her in a while. I miss her.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: I know.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: So then Wesley, with everybody gone, Wesley's like, it was a stupid mistake. And you could tell Angels kind of like relating with him a little bit. And he says, yeah, your father's visit just rattled you. And again, this shared commonality. Angel's like, yeah, I had a dad like that, too, but I ate him. Then Wesley's like, I find it hard to think straight when he's around. Angel says, fathers and sons, they. That can be torture sometimes. Look, you should see this. Came from your department. And pulls out the report of assassins that sound a lot like cyborgs and says that they were. They took out a demon cobble in Jakarta. And then they've been, like, taking out the bad guys and that these guys actually Might be good guys. And Wesley's like, you know, I'll do some more research and figure it out. Angel's like, okay, if these guys are on our side, then somebody should tell them before they start. Stop. Before they start trying to kill us again. Um, so then in the lobby, Fred is walking Wesley's dad down the hallway, and, you know, Roger's regaling him with a story about the time that Wesley had this scroll to try to resurrect this little bird. And I love how he asks him, like, why did you do that? And Wesley says, oh, well, I wanted to. I wanted it to live again. Like, I felt really bad for it and everything. And I just think that that's such an interesting insight to the softness that Wesley does have. And then I think there's this shell that he has built, like, we see with his weapons. He builds all of that up because he so desperately wants to be loved and accepted, and he so desperately wants to protect his heart, because I think he has been, like, desperately hurt by his father. Critically touched. Referred to it as his brittle exterior. He's created this brittle exterior that covers a very soft underbelly, and it just makes him very endearing and very relatable.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. And it just. It makes me think back to Wesley and Buffy or, like, angel season one. And I think that's why I end up finding him really endearing versus annoying upon rewatch, because, you know, why he's acting the way that he is. And just seeing how he goes from that to this is really heartbreaking when you actually think about it. Right.
But it's also what makes his arc one of the best in the Buffy verse, in my opinion.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's just really sad because there's a lot of, like, really good people who have turned into very hardened people because of the amount of pain that they've gone through that they just haven't. They just haven't heard a lot. So, yeah.
So then Wesley ends up taking his dad into his office, and Roger kind of talks about. Fred is like, she seems to like you. Wesley's like, she's a very special person. Roger's like, well, does she know how you feel about her? And Wesley says, I'm really not going to discuss this with you. And I was like, that's right, Wes. You set your boundaries. You don't have to. And then Roger's like, oh, so you have a girlfriend already? Well, Wesley, how am I supposed to know these things? This is the. The. The phone works both ways. Or I Shouldn't have to call you. It's the child's responsibility to call the parent. And yeah. And then Wesley's like, well, for starters, you might have asked. And then Roger's like, all right, well, I'm asking now. What a surprise. You're being defensive. And like, without getting, like, too personal, this is like, this passive aggressiveness is very similar to me and my dynamic with my own parents. And so I think that's another. I think a lot of people can relate with Wesley. I think a lot of us have parents like this. And that parent child relationship is so, so hard because there's a biological need to be approved of and accepted by your parent. Even if you're like the most confident person in the world, you're still going to have that. It's literally like built into our DNA.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: It's a foundational relationship to who you are as a person.
[00:59:47] Speaker A: Right. And so I find. I always find parent kid relationships so interesting and complex when shown on screen.
But yeah. So then we get a nice little recap when he talks about how he, you know, chopped Lila into tiny little pieces because a higher power sought fit to stab her in the neck.
[01:00:06] Speaker B: Ooh.
[01:00:07] Speaker A: That's kind of the theme of the season.
[01:00:08] Speaker B: Brings into question what we were talking about in Home, where when Wesley's memory got erased, he didn't actually forget Lila or. Yeah, his thing with Lila.
[01:00:21] Speaker A: Right. And we thought he might have.
[01:00:22] Speaker B: We thought he might have. Yeah. But he didn't, which is good.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: I'm glad he didn't. That would have been so sad.
[01:00:29] Speaker B: But now I'm wondering, like, how did they get together? What was.
[01:00:32] Speaker A: Right. What was the catalyst? Yeah, exactly.
[01:00:35] Speaker B: He didn't. If the Connor stuff didn't happen, or maybe they didn't replace those memories with anything else. They just made it so that they still happened, but they just don't have a reason for them and they don't wonder why. It just is.
[01:00:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:49] Speaker B: It could be more sinister on its. Imagine just having memories but not knowing how those memories happened. You just have them and you don't even have the urge to know why.
Oof.
[01:01:01] Speaker A: Well, and especially too, because that put a big rift between him and Angel. So now I'm curious, like, is that rift between him and angel still there? Yeah, like, yeah, I don't know.
So then they talk about the books. Wesley shows him how to use the books, essentially. And then at this point, Roger is so devious. He uses Wesley's insecurities to cause Wesley to kind of over explain and give more information that Would what he would are otherwise. Like, he talks about the archives, how they're extensive, how he has another secure vault, which is what Roger is ultimately going towards.
And so then Roger's like, well, I hope your vault's a little safer than this room. Do you even have a lock on that door over there? All that stuff? So then we cut to the rooftop. Six cyborgs in all black outfits jump off their helicopter onto the roof of Wolfram and Hart. Then we have the elevator scene where Eve's getting onto the elevator by herself, and then Spike just appears beside her. And he's like, not to sound all self absorbed, but you can't seem to keep your eyes off of me.
I love the way he words that. He could have just said something else.
[01:02:14] Speaker B: No, I love it.
[01:02:15] Speaker A: Like, what? Now, why would that make you sound self absorbed? And he's like, you're very keen on what I've been doing lately. And she's like, how's that going? And he's like, does it scare you that, you know, Spike might be busting loose of your shackles? And then says, you know, you were the one. Or like, you work for Wolfram and Hart and they gave that amulet to Angel. And he's like, you gotta assume that they meant to make him a ghost, not me. So why am I here? Why don't they just let me go? And then she goes, who said the amulet was meant for Angel? Okay, Eve.
[01:02:48] Speaker B: She's playing both sides at this point.
[01:02:52] Speaker A: She wasn't even here in season four. How would she know?
[01:02:55] Speaker B: Seriously?
[01:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So then the lights, the elevator go out. And then Spike goes, I know what this is. You'll never take me to hell.
I was like, oh, Spike has nightmares.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: I love how he says, I know what this is in a very.
[01:03:11] Speaker A: He whispers it to himself.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: And then he freaks out, be brave, Spike.
[01:03:15] Speaker A: Be brave.
[01:03:16] Speaker B: Be brave.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: Okay, you got this.
He's like, oh, well, that's just something I say when it gets well behaved.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: She is not afraid.
Imagine if we just started singing to soothe himself.
[01:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah, he's over there. He's like. Like, I'm a big bad vampire. I'm really scary. And Eve's over there, like, oh, my gosh.
My word.
So stupid. So then the alarm starts blaring through the building. Angel comes out. I was like, what's going on? Guns. Like, we've lost power and communication. And then he's like, all right. The. When the alarm gets cut, he's like, I think we lost security, too. Spike appears in lobby, is like, hey, Something's wrong with the elevator. And then Angel's like, get security. I need to know if this is a false alarm. Cyborgs come in and immediately start to attack everyone. Back in Wesley's office, they hear the alarm go off. And then Wesley's like, oh, shoot. And then a cyborg comes in, and then him and his father fight. You know, he ends up, like, grabbing a sword off the wall and then throwing one to his father and then, like, cutting it at one point. And his dad's like, that was my. That was my kill. And he's like, we're not actually fencing. And he's like, we're still following basic rules, actually. How exhausting. Yeah. To have this man like everything you.
[01:04:36] Speaker B: Do, Roger, Wyndham Price are the most exhausting people. Exhausting you will ever interact with them.
[01:04:42] Speaker A: I can't do it. I can't.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: They just complain about everything. Nothing makes them happy. They know everything about everything, but you don't know anything.
They never let you get a word in. Yeah, it's just the worst.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it really, really is the worst.
[01:05:00] Speaker B: God.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
So then they end up, like, I think, oh, yeah. So then Wesley ends up stabbing the cyborg. The cyborg goes down. And then as they're about to leave, Roger's like, oh, my gosh, you can't leave the books out like that. And then Wesley's like, okay, grab the books. So they go. And they enter into this. This giant security vault that Wesley has in the back of his office. And Roger says, you handled that fellow quite readily. Which is the first positive thing he said to Wesley the entire time, which he says on purpose to disarm Wesley. And then Wesley turns. Is back to Roger to put the books down. And Roger pulls out a gun and completely pistol whips Wesley in the back of his head, then goes over and ends up or, like, talks in his earpiece and says, phase one complete. Begin phase two. And we're like, oh, shoot. Is he taking advantage of the situation, or is he actually in cahoots with these robots, which, you know, he's a robot. So then he. Then we go back to the lobby. Angel and gun are still fighting the cyborgs and guns getting pretty beaten down. But angel can't do anything about it because he's fighting off another cyborg. And then back in the office, Wesley comes to. His dad's gone. And then he notices that the cyborg he fought is still alive. And so then we see in the hallway, Wesley's walking, or Wesley's dad is walking briskly down. He finds Fred, and then she's like, where are you going alone? And he's like, oh, hey. Wesley's department has seen some sort of, like, spatial disturbance on the roof, and he wants me to go get Angel. And then Fred's like, he sent you by yourself? And Raj is like, I'm quite capable of taking care of myself. And then Fred, of course, is like, oh, me too. Let me help you.
So then back in Wesley's office again. They do such a good job of setting Wesley up this episode, and it's such a bummer. I think if they had known that season five was going to be canceled or, like, the show is going to be canceled after the season, I don't think they would have spent as much time setting up each character as they do for the first third of this season.
But it's just really interesting every. They tell you everything you need to know about Wesley, like, the fact that he's over there. And then he pulls off the cyborg's, like, metal shield off its face and realizes it's humanoid and is like, oh, you can feel pain. And then, like, deliberately causes it pain. Like, yeah, this is season four. Wesley, who kept, you know, Justine tied up in a closet bucket to poop in. Yeah.
[01:07:35] Speaker B: And stop that one girl in the arm. Yeah. To get information. The girl on Orpheus. That was.
[01:07:41] Speaker A: And we have. We. Yeah, that's. Oh, I did forget about that, too.
[01:07:45] Speaker B: Even Faith was like.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: Faith was like, hang on.
I don't think I like this.
Which is. Is. I think it is actually needed because we haven't seen the side of Wesley since he worked at Wolverman Hart's a little bit more polished. And so there's been kind of the sense of, like, well, how much of past Wesley is. Is present Wesley. And so I think this kind of clears up some stuff in a lot of ways.
So back in the lobby, Angel's still fighting. Gun's not doing super great. Spike's just, like, walking by, and he's like, gun. He, like, runs over, and he, like, stands there with, like, his fist up. He's, like, concentrating, like, super hard. And Gun's choking. He's like, spike, what are you. And Spike's like, shh. Sorry, I have to concentrate. Don't talk. The script says. Says Gun chokes more.
And then Spike finally throws his punch, connects with the cyborg's head, knocks it back. And Spike just, like, gives a smile, and Gun just stares at him. And he's like, right, okay. And then Spike just, like, takes off Again, so funny.
So then Wesley's father knocks the cyborg in the head with his chair, rescuing Angel, Offers his hand up, and then is like, hey. Him and Fred are like. Like, Wesley's on the roof. He, we need your help. And so then Angel, Fred. Well, angel and. And Roger go upstairs, up to the roof, and Spike's like, oh, yeah, by the way, Eve's stuck in the elevator and got like, no calm maintenance. And Spike's like, right where is me? Wait. To be honest, I don't even care.
[01:09:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we're like, as you should, anybody.
[01:09:20] Speaker A: No. No one cares. Eve will be fine.
[01:09:23] Speaker B: In fact, the power comes back on, she'll get out of the elevator, teleport.
[01:09:27] Speaker A: Back the little hellhole that she's from. Yeah.
So then bow onto the roof. Angel comes out, followed by Roger. And he's like, wesley, Wesley. But, of course, Wesley's not out there. And Roger's like, well, that's just the thing. I'm so sorry to have misled you, but this was never actually about Wesley. He pulls out that wand that he took from the vaults. And angel immediately collapses and is in pain. And we see, like, this, like, white smoke flowing out of Angel's body and into the wand, making his soul. I know. I was like, oh, no, here we go again. Here we go again.
[01:10:01] Speaker B: Jealous.
[01:10:02] Speaker A: He just, like, starts convulsing with perfect happiness.
So then.
[01:10:08] Speaker B: Please, not that again.
Is he gonna say Cordelia?
[01:10:16] Speaker A: Oh, God, Just to throw us all off?
[01:10:18] Speaker B: I don't think that will happen.
[01:10:24] Speaker A: All right, so then Roger's like, don't fight. It'll be easier for you. And then he speaks into his earpiece and says, ready for extraction. We're finished. And then Wesley, hot, hot, hot. Just walks right by, snaps it right out of his hand. Listen, I know it's problematic. It has issues. Whatever. I can't help it, okay? I think it's sexy who you do you. Yeah, I am. I will.
[01:10:49] Speaker B: I just don't like skinny white boys.
[01:10:52] Speaker A: See, I don't think he's that skinny. He's not like Timothy Chalamet, who looks like a poor, sick Victorian child. Fantastic actor. But he really is. He's a little twinkle.
[01:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, but, like, Wesley touched, like, a skinny white boy.
[01:11:08] Speaker A: Okay, well, I think he has great shoulders. Is he Angel?
[01:11:11] Speaker B: I like beef white boys.
[01:11:13] Speaker A: But, yeah, we know that.
[01:11:15] Speaker B: That's why Spike also doesn't really do it for me. He's just too skinnier than Wesley.
[01:11:19] Speaker A: And he's also really tiny, too. Yeah, I need someone that can pick me up for sure.
[01:11:24] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Angel or.
[01:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, he can, I think.
[01:11:27] Speaker B: Wesley, angel and gun.
[01:11:29] Speaker A: Gun. Definitely. Could. Definitely. Yeah.
Anyway, so Wesley very confidently takes the staff and then holds a gun at his dad, says, hello, Father. And then Roger's like, walk away. You don't understand. You'll never understand what we're trying to do here. And Wesley says, you're using the staff to take Angel's will, make him your slave. Your cyborgs panic a bit too easily.
It's interesting how Wes is defending Angel's free will and his choice when angel has taken away his memories, arguably saying that he's taken away Wesley's full ability to choose, which is just interesting.
And then Roger talking about Angels is, that creature is more dangerous to mankind than you realize. And Wesley says, you're worried you're wrong about him. He's not what you think. Roger says, he's a puppet. They have said puppet, like, three times now this season. He's. He always has to. The powers that beat Wolfram and Hart. Now he's ours.
And then. Are you says, yeah, right. Who.
[01:12:28] Speaker B: Who this entire episode, and we actually don't even know who these people are.
[01:12:33] Speaker A: We never find out.
[01:12:34] Speaker B: We never find out. Yeah.
[01:12:35] Speaker A: Never find out. Yeah.
Yeah, I guess. No, it matters to me.
So then Wesley's like, you had us all attacked. You smuggled in a weapon. You brought in an army so you could escape. I don't know why you're doing all this, but did you ever once consider that there might be another way? Did you ever once consider talking to me about it again? That trust aspect? Roger says, no, you failed me enough for one lifetime. Then Fred. Oh, my God, Fred, have some situational awareness for once in your life, please.
Walks out, doesn't see, like, two men pointing guns at each other and goes, oh, Angel. And then runs over to Angel's side and Wesley, this is when. The first time, he looks less than confident, and he's like, fred, you got to get out of here. And then Roger says, you know what that vampire is and what he's done, and you follow him anyway. And Wesley says, maybe I know what I'm doing. Why can't you trust that? A lot of this reminds me of the choice that Wesley had to make in Sanctuary. Yeah. In Sanctuary. Yeah.
And then Roger says, you disgrace yourself with the Council, you join forces with him, and you have the nerve to ask me why I can't trust you? Wesley says, I've done everything you've ever asked, and I've done it well. Yes. Stand on business. But this is also. I see a lot of this is like a metaphor for how Wesley feels about what he's done to and for Angel. How he's done everything that angel has asked him to, and he's done it well. And it's even kind of. Even though he doesn't remember, but like, him kidnapping Connor is. Was him doing it because he believed that was the best thing for angel and he was trying to help his friend. Obviously, we don't fully agree with the methodology, and he should have talked to angel, but there's a similar vein there.
So then Wesley says, you never had any use for me as a child. You can't bear the thought of me as an adult. That hits hard.
[01:14:28] Speaker B: That's rough.
[01:14:29] Speaker A: Tell me, Father, what is it that galls you so? That I was never as good as the job? I was never as good at the job as you, or that I just might be better? Then Roger says, oh, yes, this is Los Angeles. We have to talk about. Talk about our feelings. Then maybe we'll hug. And I was like, no, come on. You should know the people here aren't huggers. You tried that with Angel.
[01:14:49] Speaker B: Also, I don't feel like people talk about their feelings in Los Angeles.
[01:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah, they really. I'm from Los Angeles. We don't. Yeah, they really, really, really don't.
[01:14:59] Speaker B: It's a show town or whatever.
[01:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's the idea that we're all actors. We all put on a facade and a mask and we. We don't show our true feelings. So then we hear the sound of a helicopter approaching. Roger again asks for the staff and says, don't make me shoot you. Wesley walks over to the edge of the building and is like, hey, I'm going to drop this thing. And he's like, I am aware of how powerful it is, but he's like, you know, if I drop it, then Angel's gonna be freed, so it's a win. Win for me. So then Roger's like, all right, well, then if it's someone that you care about. And then he grabs Fred, points a gun at her head, and without missing a beat, without blinking, without even probably thinking or processing, Wesley unloads an entire round into his father, shoots him nine times, and he's like walking towards him as he. Again, I know there's problematic, but I think that's super hot. So, you know, my jaw was on the father. Yeah, yeah, Leia, that's it. That's the hot part.
[01:15:55] Speaker B: Sarah, who are you?
[01:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you. You should know. You should know at this point. So that's the first time I watched this. My job was on the ground, though. I literally. I couldn't believe that. The lack of hesitation, how he instantaneously just. And it wasn't just once a part.
[01:16:15] Speaker B: Of him almost, like, wanted to do it. And it was almost like taking his anger out on his father.
[01:16:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:16:22] Speaker B: And it's almost like he blacked out.
You know, it's like when somebody has pushed you so far past your limit and you just kind of lose it on them, but then afterwards you realize, oh, shit, what have I done? And I think this is that type of situation for Wesley because it doesn't really. Like, if he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have done that. But I think it's genuinely. He blacked out.
[01:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Which not to, like, take away from the supposed to be romantic vibes of this, the scene, but there's also, like, this underlying thing. There is like, why is Fred so special to Wesley? And I think it goes back to, like, we were talking about in Solace with the Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart, where even Angelus was kind of like, you like the fantasy. You like that this girl makes you feel a certain way. And I think that.
I don't know that the writers are necessarily doing all of this consciously, but there's this idea that Fred represents something to Wesley more than just the fact that she's Fred.
And I think that him shooting his father and doing so without hesitation, I get the sense, and this could be me just reading into it, that it's more than just it being about Fred, but it's more like she represents, like, I don't know, she represents someone who makes him feel worthy, someone who she. She makes him feel accepted. She makes him feel everything he's wanted to feel. And that's not to say that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's hard when the show keeps using Fred as a device.
[01:18:15] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you know, I think the biggest problem is that thus far, Wesley and Fred's relationship has been him wanting her. Her not reciprocating or something standing in between them. So for Wesley, Fred has always been unattainable. So it's almost like if he can have Fred, then that means that he is worthy of something. Like, he earned it. It's that whole idea of wanting the unattainable, and you want it more than you usually would because you can't have it.
[01:18:48] Speaker A: Right.
[01:18:49] Speaker B: And that's why I just don't really care for this entire, you know, this whole thing trying to be painted as, like, romantic in a way, because they're not on the same page. And I feel like the show hasn't done enough to show us why Wesley and Fred should be a thing other than Wesley wants to have this thing that he hasn't been able to have. And Fred is not a prize to be won. And I think this show forgets that sometimes and makes it so that she's there for Wesley as, like, an end goal.
Like, for Wesley, that's the end goal. Have Fred. And that's just not. That's not an interesting way or a really endearing way to build a relationship, in my opinion.
[01:19:44] Speaker A: So, yeah, I agree.
[01:19:45] Speaker B: And that's not to say that they don't have great moments together, because I think the season has been.
We've been seeing them spending more time together, working together. They do make a great team. Obviously they care about each other, but there's still that underlying, like, unrequited love that just makes it just a little icky, you know, there's always an ickiness about it, especially if it's been happening for so long and especially if it's mostly in favor of the male characters arc, because then it just turns the female character into a prize and.
[01:20:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. So it's hard in this moment not to see Fred as a symbol of something, both metaphorically and also literally, because I don't. I don't doubt that Wesley cares about her for sure, but the way that the show has also built up the. The relationship, it makes it hard not to see her as just. Just. Just simply a prop. Simply a prize, like you said. But, yeah, I still am a sucker for a guy that will kill for his woman. Sue me.
[01:20:55] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:20:56] Speaker A: So anyway, she's not a woman, though. I tell that to the writers.
[01:21:03] Speaker B: She's not his woman.
[01:21:06] Speaker A: She. Yeah, she really is not, but he.
[01:21:08] Speaker B: Wants her to be, I guess.
[01:21:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, we know Grandmasters.
This is it. This is the final act.
It's the ultimate sacrifice. So then as soon as he finishes, he just turns around and vomits and almost like he's processing everything and just staring in disbelief. And then all of a sudden, we see his father's body fades and it's the body of a cyborg, and, oh, my gosh, the amount of emotions that would be running through him right now. And I think this moment really encapsulates a lot of who Wesley is. This person who is literally unafraid to make the hard choices, even if it costs him and is very fiercely loyal towards his. His friends, but is sensitive underneath. And it really will hurt him. And this is why he protects himself so much.
So then in Angel's office later on, Wesley walks in as Angel's laying on the couch holding his belly. He's like, you know the worst about losing your free will? He's like, you know, you get really nauseous. And Wesley's like, the effect should wear off before too long. Angel's like, any idea where these things came from and what they were trying to do with me? Wesley says, no. They're like, great. Now the good guys may be after us, too. And then Wesley's.
[01:22:24] Speaker B: I think it's important to know which I think even if we don't know who these people are or why they came after Angel, I think it just establishes how isolated this group is at Wolfram and Hart. They can't trust the good guys now. They can't trust the bad guys. They can't trust the people they employ, their clients. So they really have each other. And they're very isolated, which could lead to some drama.
Yeah, a lot of conflict, I guess.
[01:22:55] Speaker A: Yep. Angel's like, they're all trying to bring us down. Like, the perception is that we're weak. Wesley's like, no, the perception is that I'm weak. That's why they went for me. Angel says, they're wrong. You do what you have to to protect the people around you, to do what you know is right, regardless of the cost. Oh, that sounds like conviction. You know, I never really understood that you're the guy who makes all the hard decisions, even if you have to make them alone. Yeah. So angel understanding Wesley at a level he hadn't before because he's also had to make hard and tough choices in regards to Connor and wiping their memories. And also, even with the decision to join Wolfram and Hart, too, that required some compromise.
And then Wesley says, right now, I just feel like the guy who shot his own father. And then Angel's like, well, it was just a robot with a fancy glamour. And then they talk about how, like, it knew everything about him. It probably had access to the Watcher Council's old files. And then, you know, it would have known exactly what buttons to push. Angel's like, don't beat yourself up. You know, I killed my actual dad. It was one of the first things I did when I became a vampire. Wesley looks exact, like, completely disgusted. And he's like, I hardly see how that is the same situation. And just like, yeah, I Didn't really think that one through. You should get some rest. They kind of like, bro, hug it out. Like, don't really. It's just like the peace out.
[01:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:24:11] Speaker A: And then Wesley walks into the lobby and we have a Spike sitting there, like, waiting for him. He's like, hey.
So, you know, heard about what happened up top offing your dad and all that. Don't know if you know this, but I killed my mom. Actually, I'd already killed her. And then she tried to shock me, so I had to. And then Wesley just like, puts his hands up and is like, this is crazy. Thank you. I'm very comforted. Right.
[01:24:37] Speaker B: I just love how Spike goes into the details too. He's like, well, she. I already killed her and she's trying to shag me. She's trying to sleep with me. She's trying to sleep with you because.
[01:24:46] Speaker A: You killed her, Spike. Like, come on, some self awareness here. Oh, my gosh. They're trying. I. You know, it's the thought that counts.
[01:24:54] Speaker B: It's just so funny the way they both think. It's so reassuring and comfortable. Oh, don't worry about it.
[01:25:01] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
[01:25:02] Speaker B: It's fine.
We did that too.
We actually succeeded.
[01:25:10] Speaker A: I'd like to process in peace, thank you very much. I'd like to not be compared to a soulless vampire.
[01:25:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:25:16] Speaker A: Then back in Wesley's office, Wesley's just like, standing there by himself. And then Fred comes in and then he says, if you're here to tell me about how you killed your parents, please, perhaps you could wait for another time.
[01:25:28] Speaker B: Not Fred's parents.
[01:25:29] Speaker A: What are their names? No, they're fine.
[01:25:31] Speaker B: Trish and.
[01:25:32] Speaker A: Oh, I don't remember now.
[01:25:34] Speaker B: Oh, my God, the dad's name. They were so cute.
[01:25:36] Speaker A: They're very cute. Like, the. The dad is the only positive male role model in this entire universe.
[01:25:42] Speaker B: 1000%.
[01:25:45] Speaker A: So then she says, it's not like you killed your dad either. Is it Roger as well?
[01:25:50] Speaker B: Maybe.
[01:25:50] Speaker A: Wait, I'm gonna look it up. What are Fred's parents names? In Angel? Not Scooby Doo. In Angel.
Yeah. Roger and Trish.
[01:26:09] Speaker B: Are they siblings? No, I'm just.
Yeah.
[01:26:17] Speaker A: Wait, someone was not, so that must have slipped through the cracks.
[01:26:21] Speaker B: Roger is a pretty common name.
[01:26:25] Speaker A: They could have picked any other name, though, that's.
[01:26:28] Speaker B: They forgot that Fred had parents. Yeah, they probably genuinely thought that Fred killed.
[01:26:32] Speaker A: Probably did. Yeah.
They're back in the hell dimension too.
[01:26:37] Speaker B: She just left them back there in Pilea.
[01:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah. It's okay. They live a wonderful life. The Gru Slog's still there?
[01:26:45] Speaker B: Yes, sir.
[01:26:46] Speaker A: He went back and liberated everyone.
[01:26:48] Speaker B: I hope he's doing well.
[01:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I hope he found a lovely lady, settled down, became a champion of Pilea, lots of Gru babies.
[01:26:56] Speaker B: I feel like Gru and Anya would have made a perfect couple.
[01:27:00] Speaker A: You know what? That actually would have been electric. He would have been so, like. Like, sweet and flattering, and she would have eaten it up. She would have been like.
[01:27:07] Speaker B: You would have gotten her so much money.
[01:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. She would have been like. She had the vision. She would have been like, here, I'll have sex with you. Take the visions.
[01:27:15] Speaker B: No, no. Just Anya as she is. Even vengeance demon Anya.
[01:27:20] Speaker A: They would have. She probably would have stayed and run the shop with her, and she would have been so happy. And they would have. Yeah.
[01:27:27] Speaker B: Like, he would have done all the work. Work. Made her money, and she could have just, like, lived her best life. And he would have loved to do that. Because Gru lives to serve his women.
[01:27:38] Speaker A: He does. Like, a real man.
[01:27:40] Speaker B: Yeah, unlike who?
[01:27:47] Speaker A: Like my husband. Like, every man around. Oh. They literally live to serve us.
[01:27:51] Speaker B: Andrew's catching strays, too.
[01:27:54] Speaker A: No.
He would nod and go, yeah, yeah.
[01:27:59] Speaker B: It's true.
[01:28:00] Speaker A: Happy wife have deal. Happy life. Right? All right, so Fred's like, part of you knew. Even if you can't admit it to yourself, part of you knew it wasn't him. I love that he goes, no, I was sure it was him. You were there. I killed my father. Because they always do this in movies. They're always like, well, a part of you just.
[01:28:15] Speaker B: It's like, how do you know he didn't?
[01:28:17] Speaker A: No one knows. Yeah, so Fred's like, well, he was threatening your friends. And Wesley, like, turns around and, like, stares her deep in her eyes and is, like, threatening you. He pointed a gun at you, Fred. So I shot him. And Fred's like, oh.
[01:28:33] Speaker B: And then he looks like he's, like, leaning in for a kiss or something.
[01:28:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:28:36] Speaker B: He's like, stop doing this now.
[01:28:38] Speaker A: Give me a kiss. My reward, please.
[01:28:40] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[01:28:41] Speaker A: Then Noxie comes in, and we're all supposed to be like, oh, poor Wes. And it's like, bruh, Just like, man, like, give it up. She's clearly chosen Knox. Like, let her live her life and stop guilting her. Like, this is so unhelpful. Healthy. Anyway, whatever it is. So then Knox is like, hey, you're supposed to. You're injured. We. I need to take care of you. And then Fred's like, well, Wesley and I were just. And then Wesley's like, Go. You should go. Oh, go. And I'm like, okay, this is very much giving. Not good enough for you.
[01:29:12] Speaker B: So sad.
[01:29:14] Speaker A: But I think also, I think what the writers are trying to do is like one, it's shame, but also the sense of like, he doesn't want to be vulnerable in front of her. I think he's building up his walls again.
So then Knox and Fred take off. Wesley goes and sits down at his desk and then picks up his phone, says, hello, mom, it's me. No, everything's fine. I was hoping to speak with Father, actually. And then this. It's one sided. And he says, oh, I didn't realize it was so early there. I've had a bit of a. Gets cut off again. Of course we have clocks in la. Listen, I wanted to. Gets cut off again. Nothing's wrong. I just wanted to call and see how you were and like, you can just tell that he's searching for connection and not can't find it. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Sad. Critically Touched has a really great quote where they say lineage exerts its influence on things to come. But more than a foundation for future developments, it is a capstone episode in many ways. It finishes Wesley's backstory. From Wesley's initial regression to nervous fumbling to that final confrontation. Confrontation.
[01:30:16] Speaker B: Confrontation.
[01:30:18] Speaker A: Thank you, yes. Can't read confrontation on the roof. It shows us where Wesley came from and how far he has left that behind. It shows us clearly what an immense and destructive influence Roger was on Wesley's life. It shows where Wesley's hard and ruthless streak originated. It puts into perspective how much of Wesley's efforts to prove himself over the seasons were, in the end about proving himself to his father. And finally, it shows how all of Wesley's efforts are ultimately for naught. Wesley has no doubt achieved more in the battle between good and evil than any dozen watchers back in England. But Roger is still his father. And as long as his father does not see his accomplishments, does not acknowledge them, Wesley will, on some level, always be in his shadow. Nothing shows this better than that beautiful final scene. Wesley, with some effort of will, picks up the telephone and calls his father, wanting to. To just talk to him for what might be the first time in years. Like the other conversation back in Belonging, we only hear Wesley's side of it, but it is clear that he is immediately subject to a barrage of criticism and suspicion. Wesley's tone is conciliatory. He tries to reach out, but he cannot get a word in edgewise. Wesley has just shot his father and nothing has changed.
[01:31:25] Speaker B: Yikes.
[01:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:31:27] Speaker B: And you know what the saddest thing is? If Wesley didn't have so much fear from his father and held back so much of himself from his father. Like, you see how efficient and competent he is. But then as soon as his father comes into the picture, he starts to. He becomes, like, too nervous to even function. And it's like, Wesley could have been a great watcher, but it makes you think, like, he's trying in the back of his head when he's being that bumbling idiot in Buffy Season three.
You can tell why he was acting like that. It's because his father was in, like, the back of his head and he was trying to, like, you know, make the family legacy proud or whatever. And it's sad because all of these things that he gets criticized about are things that he's actually really good at.
But the person who's criticizing him makes it so that he fumbles and does bad at these things. And it's just. It's just such a toxic cycle.
And it's sad that that's how some relationships are, I guess, but it's. It's very, like, true to life. I feel like.
[01:32:39] Speaker A: It also kind of reminds me of the Prodigal with Angel and his father, too, or Liam and his father, and how, like, his father's so hard on him and how that really was the catalyst for Liam going. And him turning into a vamp. And then he goes back and kills his father. And you have that moment where Darla comes to him afterwards and says, basically, now you're never. Yeah, you're never going to achieve any sort of peace because you will always be sitting there going, would my dad have approved of this? Would my dad have wanted this? Like, I'm never actually going to get his approval because he's dead now.
Yeah, it just. This episode really does mirror lineage a lot when it comes to that, which I kind of wish we had seen more of a conversation between angel and Wesley, because I'd like to see that it still affects angel all these years past. And it shows, like, Darla's words ring true and how that relates to angel and Connor. But, yeah, so what an excellent episode. And the next one is also going to be pretty juicy.
[01:33:43] Speaker B: Pretty, pretty juicy.
[01:33:44] Speaker A: The next several are actually pretty. Pretty good. I'm very excited for them.
[01:33:48] Speaker B: Yes, me, too.
[01:33:49] Speaker A: The season actually starts to, like, get into, like, the. The stuff they want to talk about, like, the theme of the season. We've kind of stopped with a little bit more of the introductory stuff which hallelujah. Let's get into the meat of it. But yes, please. Yeah, let us know. Listeners, what do you guys think of this episode? Do you like it? Do you not like it? What do you guys think of Wesley and his arc, his relationship with his father, how this reflects back to angel and Connor? What are your thoughts on Fred's role in this episode? The build up for her arc this season, but then also kind of the nods to the next episode and Spike and yeah, there's a lot of big stuff that happens next episode that's going to be really fun to talk about. Yeah, I was about to give a spoiler, but I can't, so come back next week for that.
[01:34:34] Speaker B: Spoilers.
[01:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm becoming really bad over. I'm becoming Buffy. I'm like. And then this. Oh, whatever, we're in the last season doesn't matter.
[01:34:42] Speaker B: But if you've made it this far, you've probably watched watched the show before.
[01:34:45] Speaker A: I've probably already talked about it all on spoilers anyway, so.
[01:34:49] Speaker B: Yeah, true, true.
[01:34:51] Speaker A: Anyways, so let us know your guys thoughts on this episode and we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast and you can email [email protected].
