Show Notes
Spectral forces threaten to send Spike to hell, loosening his weak grip on reality and causing encounters with ghostly apparitions.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leah and Sarah.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign.
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're talking about season five, episode four, Hellbound.
This episode is written by and directed by Stephen Tonight. And as soon as I found that out, I was like, ah, yes, the Stephen special. This all makes so much sense right now. The fact that this is the only episode of either series ever to have a viewer discretion advised warning in it.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Oh, really? It was pretty graphic.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah. The. The glass in the lady's eye. I could not. I couldn't fully look at the screen.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: The cold open shot with the guy cutting his fingers off, that was like.
Sounded like cabbage. Yeah.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: It was disgusting.
Oh, yeah.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: The makeup was sick, though. Like, the special effects makeup was very.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: The lighting was really cool. The atmosphere. I enjoyed the. I enjoyed the computer concept of this, for sure.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah. This was a very, like, horror episode and.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And everyone knows we really like horror episodes.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Or horror themes. Horror genre. I don't know what I'm saying.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: We like the horrors.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: We like the horrors.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: All of them.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Give me some more of the horrors, please.
Oh, yeah. The episode aired on October 22, 2002.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: You guys know, just so you guys.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: So it is a Halloween episode.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess it is. Oh, and how.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: We got Spook.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: We got Spook. And spoik.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: And Spoik. Sponge.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Sponge. Sorry. We have nicknames.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Spike from our discord.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: But also because my phone likes to autocorrect it. Constantly.
Stuffy all the time.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Buffy becomes souffle for me with an accent.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: I. I've definitely been on the receiving end of some souffle. You can tell Leia is Canadian. Got that French play coming through. Yeah. And just, like. Just a PSA to everybody who's listening. And, like, wow, you guys are on something tonight. This is our first episode back from our break again. I know you guys have been listening to us for, like, a month now, but this is our first episode that we've recorded since we recorded in December. Was that it's February now.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Christmas.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: So we're a little rusty. Gotta find our jam. Gotta find our groove. Also, Leia didn't want me to mention this. No, she. She did give me permission, so I'm gonna.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: I said, no, don't talk about it.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: But I felt like. I felt like we should at least bring it up, because it's the big news. That just dropped today of all. Of all days.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: February 3rd.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: About the Buffy reboot happening. I guess it's not a reboot. It's like a continuation.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah. With Sarah Michelle Geller in it.
Yeah. Yeah. So how. How are we feeling about that, Leia, if I don't already know. Tell us. Tell us how you feel.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Tell me how you feel.
I don't know how to feel because.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: I'm gonna be honest.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: I just. I don't want it. Like, it's not something that I've. That I really want. I think we should leave it alone.
I think it's interesting that, like, you know, Sarah Michelle Geller is on board. Gail Berman, I think that's her name. She's one of the producers of the original show. Dolly Parton is involved. So, like, there's a lot of big names involved, but I just.
I. I just don't see the purpose. I don't see why we need a continuation, if anything. Like, the only thing that would have been cool is to, like, go back in time, But I feel like if we're going forward in time and it's, you know, Sarah Michelle Geller's, like, all the articles that I've read said that she would make, like, guest appearances and stuff, maybe, which would be fine, but I just.
I just don't know how they would do it in a way that added substance to the already existing Buffyverse without just being, like, another basic story about, oh, the next Slayer gets called, and she's just gonna go through the same shit that Buffy went through, you know? Like, I don't know. So I'm. I'm not really excited for it. I'm really skeptical if it does work, if it does, like, happen. Like, I'll watch it, I think. But I don't know. I. I'm just not.
Let's just let Buffy rest. How about that?
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No. How do you feel?
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Sarah, you wanted to talk about this?
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I.
Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Sarah's like, it ruined my day.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: It did. It ruined my day. And I know that sounds so dramatic. I'm also, like, about to start my period, too. Tmi, but. So I'm a little extra emotional.
Yeah, no, it's just. I love Buffy so much. I think you all know this. And, I mean, everyone who listens loves Buffy, and it's something that is very special. And obviously, I'm not super thrilled with how they did the last two seasons of Buffy, but even still, like, there's something very special to me about the show. And I just. Have we ever known A reboot to be good? No, we just have not. Nothing comes to mind. I'm sure there's probably something out there, but typically, reboots feel. Feel like cash grabs, and it feels like we're just gonna tell the story because we know it'll make money because of the way the past, like, franchise did so well. And so this just feels like not. And I'm not saying that, like, you know, the people involved necessarily are feeling that way, because I. I do feel. I know Sarah Michelle Geller loves Buffy and loves the character, and if she feels there's a story that can be told because for so long she was like, no, no, no. Then I would like to see what she has to put out. But I just am not feeling very optimistic and just so afraid that it's gonna turn the characters or the show into something that's maybe unrecognizable. And I don't know. I'm just. I'm very, very, very protective about this show. And so anytime there's any form of new media that comes out about it, I get really skeptical because it was just. It was lightning in a bottle. I don't know that we're gonna find anything. And. And that's not necessarily because of Joss, obviously. I think he is a big factor. As crappy as he is. He's a fantastic showrunner and a fantastic writer.
Sarah Michelle Geller was fantastic. All of the actors, all of the writers, and I just don't know that we can capture that again. Anyway, that's our thoughts on it. And I would love to say that I'm proven wrong, but I guess we'll see what happens.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Hoping for the best, but also very pessimistic.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: I know. Which is so sad. I sound so jaded and so old. The life has been sucked out of me.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Anyway, I feel you.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Hellbounds. Okay. What did you think of this episode?
Transition.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: This episode was crap. No, I'm just kidding.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: People are like, wow. All the haters. Like, yeah, we are the haters. Yeah, we are. We're the biggest haters.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. We just complain all the time. Right. Isn't that true?
This episode? I. I mean, I enjoyed this episode. I think I. I like the concept of it. I really like the horror aspect of it. I think it, like, brings up a lot of really interesting things about, like, Spike's post soul acquirement journey that are really, like, aligned with the show. We'll talk about it when we get there. I found the middle to be, like, a bit of A slog to get through. Like, it kind of. The pacing was, like, really slow for some. Felt like, for, like, certain parts of it. But, I mean, I like the beginning. I like the end. James Mersters is, like, he. He does great performances, I think. Like, I think that's definitely a plus. But, yeah, I mean, it's not like, my favorite, but it was good.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: What did you think?
[00:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah, this is. And I'm just gonna be, like, real candid here. I am trying really hard to be as objective as I can, but full disclosure, we released Seeing you don't have to be.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: This is our podcast. We can be as biased as we want.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: All right, well, just for context, then, we really seeing Red this week. So I've had to deal with a lot of fan discourse with that. And.
And then we're also. Leah Tabby and I, on Becoming Buffy, are recording season seven right now. We actually just recorded Never Leave Me and Sleeper. So, like, we're right around there. So it's really interesting to kind of watch Spike's journey in season seven and where he's at right now. And I. This is where I kind of start to understand the complaints from people that Spike is taking away screen time from other members of Angel Investigations. And also a lot of people saying, oh, my gosh, season five of angel is just them rehashing things that Spike learned over in season seven of Buffy. Well, I don't fully think that's true because I think there are. There's going to be things, especially as we move on. I think right now is a lot of them rehashing some things and setting up because they recognize that they got a lot of view new viewers on Angel. Like, a lot of this episode just kind of felt like review, and it kind of felt like setup for the next few seasons. And for me in particular, I was kind of bored only because I've literally been on Spike's Journey.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: You've been literally watching Spike be, like, put through all these situations in season seven, like, repeatedly with no actual, like, resolution or any growth coming out.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: So I'm kind of like, he's just.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Like, haunted by the first, and then he's, like, kidnapped by the first, and then he has some trigger, and then he. It's like Spike is just always like, the victim.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Made him into a victim.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's what I thought. I was like. I like the subtle parallels between angel and Spike. I think that's the most interesting part of this episode, like, especially their conversation. But I think I'm getting really Tired of Spike being the victim or hampered in some way. See, season four through six of Buffy, he was chipped. Season seven of Buffy, he was manipulated, chipped, and tortured by the First. And now he's a ghost. I want to see what he does and who he is without so many restraints on him. It's time for Spike to make his own choices and decisions. Like, it's constantly like, oh, man, Spike.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Is this, to be fair, like, to put a, like, positive spin on this episode? I think this episode introduces those ideas, which is why I like it.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: And I think I'm interested to see, like, where they're gonna go with Spike moving forward. Because this season, this episode definitely is planting the idea in Spike's head that he needs to look backwards and he needs to think about his past now that he has a soul, and that the idea of Hell is very real and that he's going to go there no matter what he does, no matter how much good he does. Like, he's going to Hell because of X, Y, Z that has happened in his past. And, you know, obviously, they don't go into it. Like, there's a lot of Spike running around helpless and, like, whatever, whining, but throwing tantrums, as Spike does.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Spook.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: He's spook in this episode.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Spook. Yes, Spook. There it is. Spook.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: But, yeah, I think.
I think, like, this is definitely a great start, but it is kind of a slog to get through. Like, even me, I haven't watched Buffy season seven in a very, very long time. But even I was like, oh, my God, really? Are we really, like, making Spike the victim again? But at least on this show, people aren't, like, bending over backwards to save poor Spiky, you know, like, they are.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Fred is.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah, but there's a. There's a reason for it. Like, Fred doesn't have the history that, like, all the other characters do with Spike. And she's coming at it from very much of, like, an Angel. The series perspective of, like, we help the helpless, we save souls. Right.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: So very different from Buffy.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Exactly. So that's why I'm, like, okay with it. And then everyone else is just kind of like, yeah, like, he's going to Hell. Like, why should we help Spike?
[00:12:31] Speaker A: And I'm like, yeah, I like that.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: He's a big boy. You don't need to coddle him.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, I agree. I do appreciate that that's brought up, because, again, that's something that's, like, sorely lacking in season seven. But Tabby actually brought up a really interesting point over in Becoming Buffy. I think it was actually in Sleeper, where. And just refresher, that's the episode where we find out that Spike was being used by the first and he buried all those bodies in the basement. And there's, like, that moment where he, like, drinks from Buffy's blood and her arm and all that stuff. And we were kind of talking about how it's been really interesting to watch this show reframing Spike in season seven. And one of the ways that they're trying to get past the events of Seeing Red is they're making Spike into a victim. And that's typically what writers will do when they want to create a sympathetic character, like a bad guy that's turned good is they make him a victim so that you start to have sympathy for him. And in a way, it almost. Sometimes it doesn't always, but sometimes it can excuse what they've done in the past because, oh, look how they suffered now. And it's just. It's. It's been really. It's really interesting in season seven, and it's interesting here because it's like, here they're actually holding him accountable. And I do appreciate that. I think it just. I want to see what happens when the training wheels come off and Spike can make any choice that he wants. Because, I mean, angel talks about he's going to go right back to Buffy. Is he going to do that? Like, what is he going to do? And so I'm just ready for that. I think. I'm just. I'm just ready for sure.
So I. Like I talked about before, again, this episode, I think, is the most important, and it's setting up. The parallels between angel and Spike are continuing. The parallels showing that angel has kind of given up a little bit, bringing up the Sean Shu, the specifications around it, and then talking about Spike and wanting something bad enough. The season has a lot of imagery and storylines about being used and manipulated. They're using Spike to physically represent what angel and the rest of the team are sustaining, expecting that they're just being used by Wolfram and Hart. A lot of puppetry metaphors and stuff.
And how do you not become a puppet? Right. You fight for what you know is right. You own who you are. You take accountability and responsibility for yourself when needed. And I think Spike starts to do a little bit of that by fighting back against Pavane, who wants to use him. And he's able to do so because he wants it bad enough. And it's really Interesting how. How that's contrasted with angel, who is kind of lackluster about most things right now. Possibly being used by Wolfram and Hart. Well, I think we should say definitely being used by Wolfram and Hart. And now there's the subtle introduction of the Sean Shu. I think we can kind of see where this is going. And it's really interesting, for sure. All things philosophical says angel long ago abandoned his belief in the Shanshu prophecy. That after fighting many battles, the vampire with a soul would be made human. At that time, he simply wanted to do good for the sake of doing good. Not to make up for his evil deeds, which. Which he knew he could never do and not to get a reward. But now Angel's existentialism is slipping into nihilism. A lack of a belief in anything. He has lost faith in prophecy altogether and in his chances for eternal rest. He and Spike can do good as long as they are able. But in the end, Hell will come and claim them as its own. Is this what will happen when angel turns to dust? Angel has no way of knowing. And perhaps it is not to be the Hell. Perhaps it is not the Hell he should be worried about. Um, it is sometimes said that Hell is a loss of hope. And if that is so, then angel is straddling an emotional chasm, not unlike the dimensional chasm Spike stood on. And it's getting wider, pulling. Pulling him in. And I kind of. I like that. I really. I can't wait to talk about that scene between Spike and Angel. Um, yeah. And then I'll talk about it a little bit later. But the metaphors of ghosts is really fascinating because often in media, they symbolize traumatic past, unresolved issues, loneliness and kind of this idea of, like, being stuck in the past and having a lot of like. And. And kind of being actually stuck in the present with unresolved stuff in the past. And I think that's a really, really great way of kind of showing how Spike has been for so, so long, both on Buffy and now over on angel, while also being a metaphor for the rest of the team as well. So very clever. All right, Ready to talk about it? Jump in.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Let's do it.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: All right, so we have Fred walking to the lab. She gets jump scared by Spike. And then we find out that she knows he's been following her since the lobby. And only jumped to make him feel better. I like this idea immediately. They're setting up this, like, Spike's not actually very scary, and no one's really, like, terrified. And I'll talk about a little bit later about this idea of objection in horror and how angel is abject because he's a vampire, so he's literally a monster. But then there's also the idea of him being forcibly insouled, which is another level of objection. And they're going to talk about how Spike is abject in two different ways this episode.
By the fact that he's a vampire. He's in Sold, even though he chose to be in Sold. And then he's a ghost.
And they're. So. It's very interesting. So they're setting up right now that I'll. I'll read reading angel later on. But they talk about how those two things kind of almost cancel each other out. Being a ghost and being a vampire because he can't act like a vampire as a ghost. And so they're saying that, like, right now, showing that Fred is not scared by him is showing that, like, Spike has a loss of identity. And because his whole identity has been in being abject and being scary, and he doesn't have that anymore. So he's just kind of wandering around and meandering. And I thought that was kind of cool.
So we get a bit of a recap about how Spike's not a ghost, but acts like one. Fred thinks she can defy all the laws of nature to get Spike anchored to this plane. Incorporeal. Before that, though, she tempts him and finds out that his radiant heat signature has dropped again. And Spike notes that things have been feeling chilly, that he's been feeling the tug of eternal damnation. Fred also lets it slip that angel has a prophecy, the Shanshu, that if he helps enough people, that he'll become human again. And. And Spike starts to become interested and is like, oh, okay. Well, that's for him. Like, lucky him. And is jealous. But we're starting to get some seed. Plant some seeds planted right now.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: But I really do wonder, would Spike even want to be human? Or does he just want it because angel has it? That's the question we should be asking.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that. And that's a very valid question. I also think it's interesting that Fred never says why Spike could not be the vampire with the soul that would fulfill the prophecy. She's like, well, you'll be. She's like, you'll be corporeal, but you won't quite be like, angel as a vampire with the soul. Like. But she never says why exactly. So it'll be like. I'm curious to know what the parameters are. And if there are any.
So then the scene ends with him flirting with Fred and attempting to lean on the desk, but then falls straight, straight through all the way to the basement. Serves him right.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: So scary.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: So scary. No, literally. I was like, oh, of course they have a basement.
Even though it's California nowhere.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: And it looks like that.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And you can hear, like, water dripping. I was like, dang, who built this place?
[00:19:36] Speaker B: That's probably also, like, how many floors did he go down?
[00:19:39] Speaker A: And also, why did he stop? Like, why didn't he go further down?
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I will say the Buffy verse is awful. With non corporeal portrayals and so inconsistent. Constantly.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: I'm just imagining Spike. They're on, like, the 20th floor, and Spike just falling through 20 floors. And just people looking around and being like, oh, my God, what is this shadow just walking through the floors.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Exactly. Right.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: And he's just screaming the whole time.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Right. And then he, like, lands. And you're like, I don't know. I think he should have landed through. All the way through the core of the Earth.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Just like, I get it. Oh, wow. Okay.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: But also, guys just yeet him into outer space. Like, through the core of the Earth. Exactly.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: You just need to breathe that it's okay.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: I like that.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Or like, heat. Like, it doesn't matter.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: The iron. Well, yeah. And he's like, yeah, he doesn't. Body temperature. I love how he's like, yeah. I thought it was feeling chilly. I was like, bro, you can't feel temperature. Right?
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I guess.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. I don't understand how it works anymore.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: He's a spook.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: That's why he's back in the basement, though. His old haunt.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: I was like, oh, like, damn, we're back here again. I was like, it's like the sewers, but, like, Spike version.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah. He's always in basements. I'm like, back in season seven, right now he's, like, chained up in Buffy's basement. And I'm like, come on.
But I think, again, I think that is intentional because they're trying to be like, hey, look. He keeps getting stuck. Like, he was in Xander's basement and he was in the school basement. Now he's in Buffy's basement. Now he's in Wolfram and Hart.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: So also, his crypt was in a basement. Also. Yeah, he was living underground. Like, he always just lives underground.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Because he's a little gremlin.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: We are not salty at all. Anyway, it's creepy and Dark. We hear someone chopping vegetables.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: All right, so Spike's walking down the hallway. There's a man in a suit chopping his fingers off. Spikes.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Like, graphic.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: He's got, like lipless, cut up face with a gashes all over his eyes and his cheeks. Spike does not look terrified enough. He's just like, oh, whoa. Okay. And then the guy just, like disappears and we're like, this is creepy.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: So creepy.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Yes. So then we have the title sequence, and then we see Lauren walking down the hallway upstairs. And I think this is like the only scene we see of Lauren this entire episode. And, yeah, it's really sad. I miss him.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: I know. I miss him too.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: So he's negotiating something with a client. Fred passes by, ends up dropping a list of rare antiquities on Wesley's desk and starts to leave without saying hello. You could tell she's just very distracted and spread maybe a little bit thin. Wes is like, excuse me, I'm right here. Tells her that the antiquities on the list are rare, but he can get them for her in 20 minutes if he exploits every connection he has made. Again, the. The dialogue for this episode was really clever. Again, I like how the writers convey so much in this scene. Like, you can tell there's tension between the two of them. You can tell that Wesley, like, is a morally gray character by what he's saying. But he's also will to, like, do whatever it takes for Fred. Like, there's just a lot going on here.
She's like, awesome, call me when they're done. He then leans on his desk, very similar to what Spike did, and then is like, I will. On one condition. Dinner. She gets flustered thinking he's asking out.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Okay, once.
Stop this madness. We left that behind.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Did we?
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Please.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Did we? This is me in the Thor meme. Did we?
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: God, they never put this to bed, dude. They just did that. This is. This has been end game for a long time.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: I hate that word. Don't say that ever again.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Wanna be in game?
[00:23:30] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: I mean, I. I agree with you, but I also, Wesley's hot, so.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: Oh, all right. Well, you. You've drank the Kool Aid, I see.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: I've drink. Okay, okay.
Judge.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: I'm not trying to judge you. I'm not judging. No, that is not.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: That is not true. That is not true. It's okay. You can judge me all you want.
People, Listeners. You get me. You get me.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Never. Yeah, they do.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: They do. And he just gets hotter this season. Oh, my gosh.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Anyway, I'M sure he does.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Okay.
It's just so hot and miserable. To quote prophecy girls. He's so hot. So miserable.
All right. So then she's. He clarifies and is like, no, you need to eat something and actually rest. And she's like, oh, I'm fine. Starts to leave, and then she actually gets jump scared by Eve. And Eve's like, hey, got a second? And we're like, I was jump scared. Yeah. There was actually a couple in this episode.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a very spooky episode.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I like it.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: This is like what slouching toward Bethlehem wanted to be but couldn't and was not be.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Which one was that one? I totally blocked everything season.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: That's the one where Cordelia is just like running down hallways like, shrieking.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: I don't think it was trying to be. Because they told us the ending. We already knew it was going.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: I know, but it was like it was trying to be like this like horror. Like, you know, was it.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Because then it had like angel running out of the screen with like arm pulls of blood. Blood. It. It could not figure out what it wanted its tone to be.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah, stupid episode.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Okay, let us not speak of it. All right. We're now in Angel's office and Fred is getting lectured by mommy and Daddy. We have even angel sitting there. And Angel's hair is black again. And it's standing up even taller than I think I've ever seen it. He still looks great, but it's. It was a little jarring. My head or my eyes kept going up.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: I think this is around the time he was doing the crowd. And maybe I think that's why he's got this look, hair look going on.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he still looks hot. I'm just not a fan of the super dark black hair. I think it doesn't do much for him. I know. You see, look at us. You with Wesley, you with angel or bunny head.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Sarah, I'll fight you.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: What has gone with our echo? Our echo chamber has disappeared.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Our echo chamber is disintegrating before our eyes.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Hey, if. If it. If the worst thing that we argue about is who is hot? I think we're doing okay.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: I like it. I like it. Yeah. Imagine I start becoming like Team Spike or something and then we have to fight each other about that. What would you do?
[00:26:16] Speaker A: I'd probably just roll over and be like, okay, whatever you say.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: What the.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: No, that's not true. Actually, I've gotten into full on fights with again, for those of you who you Guys haven't heard season seven of Buffy yet. I've gotten full on fights with Leah over there, so that'll be fun. I don't know how much of that I'll keep, but you guys will find out it's, you know, platonic. We all love each other, but Lee and I can go at it.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Anyway. Okay. Longest episode ever.
Angel's like, hey, you've been spending a lot of money. And Fred's like, well, oh, my gosh. How am I supposed to, you know, recorporate? Rec. Portorialize, Whatever. Get Spike to touch grass again. How do I get Spike to touch grass?
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Nobody could get Spike to touch grass. He's, like, way too delusional for that.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Recorporealized. Why was I trying to add a T in there? I was, like, staring at that word. I'm so tired. Okay. She's like, how do I get Spike to be able to touch desks again so he can seduce me properly? And Angel's like, hang on. What are you trying to do? I'm just seeing comments. I can trick or Leia this episode.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Leave Fred alone.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: And then Fred is like, yeah, even though literally, that's everyone's mantra this season. And then Angel's like, no, I didn't ask you to recorporealize Spike. I wanted you to get him out of Wolfram and Hart. And he's like, we accepted the offer to take over the LA branch of an evil multidimensional law firm because we thought we can make a difference. Use the resources of Wolfram and Hart to do something decent. And how does that have anything to do with Spike? And you know what? I'm struggling to disagree with him.
I know that says a lot about me.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: I think Fred answers that question. And I think maybe I'll just talk about this right now. But I think Fred definitely has a point. And, like, I will say, like, although I despise the way that Spike went about his soul acquirement, but I think if we're sticking to, like, the lore of the Buffyverse or, like, the moral code of the Buffyverse, the fact that he has a soul and that he has assisted and, like, doing good. Yeah, I believe that they need to save, like, they need to help him. They need to, like, prioritize, re. Corporealizing him. And that he deserves a chance. I think now that he has a soul, like, Spike does deserve the chance to earn that soul. Even though I hate how he got the soul. I don't know if that makes sense.
[00:28:50] Speaker A: No, it does make sense. Yeah. And you're right.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: So I, I, I agree with Fred. And I think that, like, at the same time, I get what Angel's saying, because he's just like, this is not like, a pressing issue. Like, he's not dying. But I don't think angel also knows, like, the severity of the situation because he's very, like, busy with everything else going on at Wolfram and Heart. But, like, I think angel would agree with Fred, and he does at the very end, you know, because that's kind of the point of, like, what they're supposed to be doing.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Saving souls.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So you, you, you make sense. You rationalize arguments. I get it. And I think, I think, too, there's also, like, with this next phrase where Fred says he just saved the world. Vampire with a soul fighting for the good of humanity. Ring anything. He's just like you, a champion. An Angel's response of God, I really hate that world word.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Obviously same.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: There's Leia.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: I would say that Spike is a champion, and I would say that he saved the world, like, completely on accident, saving the world.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yes. And I think angel does make valid points of, like, what is that what Spike's going to choose? Like, he could be an asset, but I don't think he's going to. And I think angel would be somewhat correct in that. But I also think Fred is right in saying, but we need to give him the chance to make that choice for sure. So. Yeah.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: And I think that there is, like, a part of angel that does underestimate.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Spike because, well, there's jealousy there. Just like Spikes jealous of Angel.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: They have a very complicated past. I think angel, like, associates his past with the vampires that he had a past with. Darla, Spike, Drusilla. Like, these are all interconnected with Angel's own personal guilt and, like, way of looking at his redemption. And I think with Angel's headspace right now, like, he doesn't think anything is worth it. So, like, why would he think that Spike could do any good? But I think that the two of them have so much in common, but they're both so resistant. There has to be a point where they have to look at each other, be like, yeah, we're, like, a lot more similar than we both think we are.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe the things that are, like, angering us about each other is maybe reflections of our own selves and our own insecurities and shortfalls or pitfalls and short fallings or whatever it's called.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: I often see, like, oh, Angel's better than Spike, or Spike is better than Angel. And they did this. It's like a checklist that people have of this guy did this, this, this, this. So he's going to come out on top and da, da, da. And I just think these are guys with incredibly fucked up histories. And they bring out the worst in each other at times, and they have to work through that like that's what it is. But, yeah, right now, in this moment, they both have souls. They both want to be good. So let's do that.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Also, they're fighting for the same side. So let's, you know, get over this. For the betterment of the world and for the people that need help. So, yeah. So then Angel's like, he's gonna run off after Buffy. Eve's like, this is interesting. And Fred's like, is that what this is about? You're afraid he's gonna get back together with your ex? And then Angel's like, I just want you to be careful. And he's like, I know how charming Spike can be. And then Fred's like, though I don't know about that. Some people think so.
And then Fred's like, what do you think I am, stupid? I know he's been playing me. I'm not some idiot school girl with a crush. Which I really appreciate. I really appreciate. That does show growth on Fred's part too, though, because she was completely enamored by angel back in beginning of season.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: Three, and she wasn't even trying to do anything.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. She's not that naive girl they found in the caves. So. And Fred's like, it's about doing what's right. Angels. Your angel says, your department, your call. Just don't be disappointed if it doesn't work. Some people can't be saved. Then we cut to the science laboratory. No one else is there. Spike reappears and it's empty. He sees Fred's notes and as he's looking at it and is like, you kind of need to hurry up. All of a sudden, the lights start blinking. And I'm like, this is very Stranger Things. You know, we have Joyce Byers right here. And he's see, there's like a shadow that passes quickly behind him. And then he sees that the lights seem to be leading him somewhere. And so then he follows it out, walks into the hallway, and he sees like a row of the ceiling lights going off one by one. This was really, really cool. I really enjoyed this. And he's like, bugger this. I'm not playing Follow the blinking lights. And then he hears a woman crying. And she's dressed as a maid from the late 19th century. And then she stands up and she's. Doesn't have any arms. And she says, please hold me. Please. It's coming. She rushes at him, then disappears. And Spike's kind of like, what is happening?
Yeah, literally.
So then in Angel's office, he's. Angel's walking out of the elevator into his office. And then Spike's there. And Spike's like, so, what's on the agenda? Rousting a nest of venomous retirement plans? Angel's like, rolling his eyes. Pulls like a. Like a crystal decanter of blood. And I was like, whatever happened to blood coagulating? Like you have to moving.
It's probably, like, a special kind of, like, blood, or. It's been mystically.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Mystically enhanced blood.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
He's like, shops close. Spike, come back and haunt me tomorrow.
And Spike's like, heirs too rarefied up here for my taste. Anyhow. Down with the dregs is where I belong, isn't it? I really like the contrast. Angel up in the penthouse at the top. Spike all the way down at the basement. And how this scene shows that they're both very similar.
And then Spikes, like, thought we could hang, is all. A couple vampires from the old days doing our hangy thing. What does that mean? What were you hanging? What were you doing? And then Angel's like, you're starting to feel it, aren't you? How close you are now to Hell. Spike says, what if I am? Not, like, it's such a big bleeding deal. Is it? If you could break out. And then angel says, I never escaped from Hell.
Yeah, I know, right? And then angel says, I never escaped. All I got was a short reprieve. Not even sure how I managed that. I like that little nod. We still don't know what happened. Yeah.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: What happened? Who brought. Was it Jasmine? Was it the Powers that Be? Was it someone else, like the First Evil?
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Like, yeah, we don't know evil.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: It was the power of Buffy's love.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: That's what it was. It was the.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: I believe in.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: It was the ring. The ring is what was. The catalyst brought it back.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Stop.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: I know. It's very, very sweet. So then Spike's like, I don't need to. Maybe. Maybe we'll see them in the reboot. Leia. Oh, maybe we'll actually get to see them together.
Hey, you know what? I. I will say. I will say, for all the hate that I'm giving it. And no matter, like, if it's crap or not, I will cry when I see Buffy on my screen again. I will watch it. I will cry, and then I'll be like, oh, this is crap.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: I hope they just, like, leave romance out of it for Buffy. I hope they just.
[00:35:45] Speaker A: Wouldn't that be nice?
[00:35:45] Speaker B: If she has to be there, let her just be there as Buffy, as, like, a mentor to, like, a younger slayer. And she makes the guest appearances and just. We don't need to know about Buffy's love life. She just. She went and had a love life, but we don't need to know about it.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I'll be cool with that, too. And honestly, that'll probably be more the take that they will end up doing because they don't want to dip their toes in that.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Nobody needs to get angry because.
Yeah, let's just not do that, please. It's already bad enough as it is.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Or Freddy shows up and she got married to a human.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: I'd be okay with that, honestly.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, right? That'd be super cute. All right, so Spike's like, put your martyr away. Fred told me all about your great shining prophecy. Pile up all your good deeds and get the big brass ring handed to you, like everything else.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: And then angel turns on him, like everything else.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: I know, I know, right? When his things ever been handed to Angel, Neb?
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Never.
But this is Spike, though. Spike thinks that. Thinks himself. Like, he's the victim. He never gets what he wants. This. Blah, blah, blah. Just constant whining. And, like, this is what you need to, like, learn. That is delusional. Spike, like, touch grass about this and about.
Yeah, he's trying, but, like, come on.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: So close to the point, yet you're missing it.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And then angel just, like, rounds on Spike and is like, except for one small catch. The prophecy is a bunch of bull. They all are. Nothing's written in stone or faded to happen. Spike, you save the world, you end up running an evil law firm, Spike says. Or plan Casper with one foot in the friar. And angel says, you think any of it matters? The things we did, the lives we destroyed? That's all that's ever going to count. So, yeah, surprise, you're going to hell. We both are. And then Spike, you can tell, is kind of taken aback by this. And it's like, well, then why even bother? He's like, try to do the right thing. Make a difference. Angel says, what else are we going to do? And Spike says, so that's it. Then I really am going to burn. And angel says, welcome to the club.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Ooh, yeah.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Yep. And then they, like, start commiserating. They sit next to each other. And Spike's like, well, at least I got company. You and me together again. And Angel's like, yeah, are we done? And Spike's like, never much for a small talk where you always too busy trying to perfect that brooding block of wood mystique. God, I love that. Angel says, not as much. I loved your non stop yammering. I was like, wow.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Just like, he's such a yapper.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And then, like, you know, they talk about, like, angels swaggering, and Spike never listens. Spike's, like, always interrupting for Angel. Angel's like, and your hair. What color do they call that? Radioactive spikes. Has never much cared for you, Liam. Even when we were evil, angels, like, cared for you less. Spike's like, fine. Angel's like, good. And he's like, you know, there was one thing about you. And Spike's like, really? Angel's like, yeah, I never told anybody about this, but I really liked your poet. I was like, you know what? And there it is. Comparison complete. Angel reads poetry. Spike writes poetry. Now kiss. There you go.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: Now kiss.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Now kiss.
And then Spikes like, hang on. Your taste is crap. You like Barry Manilow. And then all of a sudden.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: And your poetry is crap. Spike.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, Literally.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Take the compliment.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: He's throwing you a bone here, dude. Come on.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Seriously. Listen, this is the dynamic that I love so much. They just bicker. But at the end of the day, you two idiots both have souls. Right now, you're the only two vampires in the world with a soul, and you're both gonna live forever. Why don't you become, like, ride or dies for each? Like, why don't you just become, like, an old married couple? You guys need to have each other's back.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: You have an immortal existence. You're gonna be stuck together. So just get along.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Let's form an alliance, guys.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Then you won't be lonely ever, for the rest of your life. You'll always have a companion.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: Yeah. You have a lot of shared experience, and I think I do like that this is a realistic portrayal of it, of somebody who knows you from your past. Like, it's very hard of. Hard for us to break ourselves out of the mold that we had with people when we were younger or whatever. Like, I think that's why family dynamics often are really difficult, because we often put each other in box boxes, and people grow and People change. And so there needs to be room and space for that. And if you live for hundreds of years, I would bet that would be even harder, you know?
So Spike is distracted. He suddenly sees a man hanging from the ceiling. Angel's like, what is it? Spike's like, don't you see it? And then Spike's like, okay, fine. Nothing. Too much talk of fire and brimstone. And then he sees the man again. And then we cut to later on. Spike's just completely agitated, pacing the room, being questioned by Angel, Wesley, and Fred. And he's talking about all these spooks that he can see, we can't see, and neither can the rest of them. He keeps talking to them and kind of, like, getting a little manic. And Wesley's like, who's he talking to? And they're talking about, like, it's ghosts, but we can't see them. And then Gun and Eve run in. Spooks. Spoix. And then Gun and Eve run in. They're like, hey, like, we just checked with security. They do hourly sweeps, the Mystics. And there are no spooks in this building. Except for Spike. He's the only non corporeal in the building.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: He's the only spook.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: Then we see an armless ghost woman, and she says, it's coming for you. And Spike's like, check again. I can see them. And then Fred's like, maybe we should get back to the lab. And Spike's like, no, I'm telling you, they're here. You have to check again. And suddenly he just sees, like, all of the spooks he's been seeing. And he's like, fred, you have to use that brain of yours and get me the hell out of here. He starts to fade, and then he just completely leaves altogether.
And everyone's like, oh, my gosh. Where did he go? And Angel's like, it's okay. He does this sometimes.
[00:41:29] Speaker B: He's like, finally, he shut up.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Literally. And then we see from Spike's point of view, and he can still see them, but now they cannot see him. So it's like another layer of his existence that has been, like, stripped away. So then Fred's like, we should split up, spread out, see if we can find him. And Spike's like, what are you guys talking about? I'm right here. I'm still here. And then we just. This is like, oh, pan out. And he's all there was.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Remember when there was this trend where parents would. Or, like, family would be sitting and Then they would literally start saying, oh, my God. Like, just imagine there's little girls to their child. To their child. Be like, oh, my God, Where's Steve? I can't see him. Steve, where are you? And these kids would, like, lose their minds. Like, mom, I'm right here. Mom.
Yes.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So many kids need therapy because of that.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Oh, my God. It was like, pretend. It was the pretend your kid is invisible trend or something. And I'm like, this is cruel. But also, it's so funny.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: It's really fun to watch older my own children.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, yeah, this is what I. This is what this was giving. Like, Spike is a little kid, and his parents were like. It's like, mom, dad, I'm right here.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: I also love how there's never any lights on in Wolfram and Hart. It's so, like, dark. And I'm like, can we. Would it kill you guys to turn on some light? Like, you're evil. You have so much money. Come on, just turn on the lights.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't have to worry about the light bill.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: Yeah, who cares about ethics? Cares about saving the environment.
So then we're back in the lobby, and Spikes, you know, still talking to all the spooks. And then we see that black shadow glide across the balcony again. The same one we saw in the lab that saw the lights flickering. So then Spike walks up the stairs towards the shadow. Very Twilight Zone. Because we see the elevator bell ding. And then he's like, oh, no. Haunted lift. Take a slice more to wet my knickers. And yet he, like, hesitates to go in it. So finally, he sighs, gets the elevator, goes down. I really like how this show has a lot of moments with elevators and evilness and, like, this idea of, like, going down to hell in an elevator. It's just happened multiple times. Kind of fun.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: So then in Wesley's office, Gun. Fred and Wes are all talking, and Wesley's like, well, I mean, Spike has been, you know, disappearing more and more frequently. And guns, like, give him 20 minutes. He'll be popping up next to you in the bathroom making cracks about your. And then everyone just stares at him. He's like, am I the only one? He does that, too. Hey, if I was like that, that. That's what I would be doing, too. How else are you gonna have any source of entertainment? Come on.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: You would just pop in on men and just, like, no peek into the urinal.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: Maybe. Okay. Maybe not that in particular. Sounds really bad. Okay. I would be. I would be Bugging people?
[00:44:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I would.
[00:44:15] Speaker A: Totally annoying and not necessarily doing. Yeah, you know, like, I'd be doing.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: Crappy stuff, like pop up out of nowhere.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd be. I just move.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Make their life inconvenient. Oh, but you can't move because you're a spook.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I can make them move stuff. I don't know.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: What kind of spook are you? Poltergeist.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah, the one that doesn't leave. Oh, I can be really annoying if I really want to. Just ask Tabby or Leah. Anyway, so then Fred's like, yes, he's. Something's different. He's like, a lot more agitated. He's hallucinating. And then Wesley's like, you know, maybe he has dementia. Fred's like, he's not crazy.
I was like, he's disappearing. Dementia doesn't do that. Okay, that was real wild.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: First thing. Wesley, maybe he has dementia.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, sure, that. That tracks with all of the other symptoms that he's coming up with. Yeah. You saw him disappear in front of you. Dementia doesn't do that.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Put Spike in a home.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Literally. My gosh.
So then Fred's like, he's disappearing into hell. And it's supposed to be like this super dramatic moment, but then Gun and Wesley are like, yeah, duh, he is. Where else would he be headed? I was like, yeah, right? No one's shocked by this.
This is pretty obvious.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Like, literally, where else would he go?
[00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So then in the basement, the elevator dings. Spike comes in. He's like, ah, yes. Had to be the basement. We hear the sound of chopping fingers. Spike's like, we've done this before. But then he walks to the table. The man isn't sitting there anymore. The chopped off fingers are still there, kind of twitching. A businesswoman appears out of the corner, and she's got a shard of glass sticking out of her eye.
She's like, it's gonna get you. Reaper's gonna get you. And then Spike's like, the reaper. Tall, grim fellow with a scythe. Is that what all this boogie Boogie's been about? And she says, it hurts. And he goes, I've been knocking around the land of the lost for months now. Pretty as you please. Slip through the cracks, did I? And then she pulls the glass out of her eyes, says, don't worry, William. Haven't forgotten you. And then she slices him across the face. And that's when Spike's like, hang on, she can touch me. And she knows my name. Ooh, not good.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Crazy.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: So in the science lab, Fred is still doing more stuff, trying to figure out how to get Spike back. Spike's just pacing behind her, and he's like, hey, I think I know what these ghosts are. They're the welcoming party. Guess hell got tired of waiting. Sent their boys to collect me. At one point, Fred thinks she figured it out. Spike's like, oh, yes. And then she's like, oh, no, it's not gonna work out. And then she's like, hang on, I think I have a little bit of an idea.
And then Spike reaches out and touches Fred, and there's, like, a spark of electricity near her shoulder. And then she's like, hang on. Spike, is that you? Are you there? And he's like, that's me. You felt it too, didn't you? I'm still here. He's like, you're not taking me yet. You're not taking me yet. To, like, this reaper. And then angel pops in, scares Fred again. Poor Fred. And then she said, something touched me. I think it was Spike. And then Fred's like, hey, we did another sweep of the mystics. They didn't find anything. And Fred's like, screw the mystics. I know what I felt. We have to find a way to contact him before he's really gone.
They made a connection. Leia. They made a connection. So then in the conference room, did you say De. Oblique. Oblique. Oh, no.
Call back.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Because prophecy girls just cover.
And I was like, the good old days.
[00:48:06] Speaker A: Oblique.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: The connections made at Dope Leak.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: That's so funny. That's. It feels like forever since we covered that episode.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: I know. It feels like a lifetime ago.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like, what, two, three years ago? I can't even remember now.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was two years ago. Crazy.
So then in the conference room, Wesley and Gun are talking with Fred and Angel, and they're like, hey, I don't know that this is gonna work out. And then Eve Escorts is this blonde. This blonde woman into the room. And I loved her. I wish she hadn't died, because she was hilarious. So she's a psychic, and she's there to help try and get in contact with Spike. And so then Fred's trying to, like, you know, say, hey, it's not actually a ghost. The psychic's having none of it. She goes, now I have Pilates at the crack of, why am I awake? So we're gonna move this right along. I will mutter a few calming words to get us into the zone. And then we'll see if we can scare up your missing spook. Okay, Clear your minds. Which, judging by the looks of you, won't be that hard. And then Fred's like, should be. Hold hands. The psychic's like, only if you're lonely. Now zip it. Let me do my sweet funky.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: I love her.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. I love it. So then she calls upon the Guardians of Souls, opens her eyes and is like, I sense a presence. Spikes there. He's like, damn right you do. The psychics. Like, it's very close. She says, so much pain. The dark soul. So much suffering. And then she says, it's coming. It's coming. And Spike's like, hang on, I'm already here. What are you talking about? And then she says, oh, God, I can feel it. The dark soul, it's. She starts to say, reaper. And Spike's, like, yelling at her like, it's the reaper. Tell them. Tell them. And then she grabs her throat and then is choking. And then Angel's like, spike, stop it.
Spike's like, it's not me.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: Spike, stop it.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: I love how he just blames him for everything.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: So the woman's woman sits up and gasps as if she's regaining her composure. And then exhales and then explodes. Blood all over Fred. Just, like, spits it all over her. And then we cut to Angel's office, and apparently the psychic died. Rip and Gun and Wesley are walking out of the conference into Angel's office. And they're like, I don't think that was Spike. Like, I don't think Spike would try to kill someone that was actively trying to help him. And then Wesley's like, I think that there's something else here at Wolfram and Hart. Something else a lot worse. So then we are in the science lab downstairs. I hated the scene. I don't understand. Like, I know they needed to do, like, the finger painting and the steam in the shower, but technically that doesn't work if you're outside the shower. It only works if you're inside the shower.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Oh, true, true, true.
[00:50:44] Speaker A: But also, like, Spike is being creepy. Why is he standing there while she's showering? Like, I know he's, like, thinking, but, like, it was just stupid.
Like, when I first watched this. This scene and I was first watching Season five, I didn't know any spoilers about what was gonna happen. And so I legit was like, are they trying to set up Fred and Spike together? Because that's what this episode was giving Me?
[00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it was very much Spike and Fred. Fuzzy feelings.
[00:51:13] Speaker A: And, yeah, it was bizarre because it was like they've literally tried to set Fred up with every single male character and even some female characters, too. So, like, come on, let Fred live.
So then Spike's, like, musing. He's like, why did it kill her? Reaper's supposed to take souls, not make him, if it comes to me. Couldn't have been worried she was going to help. She didn't even know I was there. Unless it wasn't about me. And then he's like, oh, my gosh, I figured it out. And he's like, fred, I think I know why it killed her. It was trying to hide something. Something it didn't want you to know. And then he kind of like focuses and then is finally able to make contact with the shower stall and then draws the word Reaper. And then Fred notices it as she comes out of the the shower. But then the glass all shatters and Spike is pulled through the wall, out of the lab and into the lobby. Now, I'm curious.
Did the glass actually shatter or was that just an illusion for Spike? Because I don't think the guy can actually make glass shatter. Like, I don't think he can actually touch things. Yeah. You know what I mean?
[00:52:19] Speaker B: I feel like it was an illusion.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah, because we don't ever see Fred's pov.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:24] Speaker A: She doesn't talk about it.
I don't know. I don't know.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: Must have been an illusion.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the only way I can make sense of it. So then now we're in the lobby, and Spike is lying on the floor as a man in a business suit walks up the stairs. And it's another spook who has one side of his face all bloody and bashed in. And he says, william. And then he starts to reach out for Spike. And then all of a sudden, all the other spooks show up. And Spike's like, that's it. Nope, I don't want to talk to any of you. Third rate.
[00:52:54] Speaker B: You're gonna call the spooks spooks. You're gonna have to call Spike spook. Also this episode, Spooky Spike.
[00:53:01] Speaker A: Spike, the spookiest spoke over here.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: It's just spook.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Okay? Spook and spoke. Or should I just call him Spook? Spook. That's gonna confuse.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: Yeah, just spook.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: So the bloody spooks and then the. The radioactive spook.
Soon to be naked spook.
[00:53:20] Speaker B: I was like, what's going on?
[00:53:22] Speaker A: Everybody's just losing their Clothes. In this episode. There's a lot of nudity, too. That was the thing. I was like, dang, what is going on? I've. I don't think the show has ever had this much before. Yeah, it was because.
[00:53:33] Speaker B: It's because James Mersters is on the show now, and that's like, the only.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: Like, I think it's just denying variation.
[00:53:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:42] Speaker A: Tonight's on again.
So then Spook is like, hey, let me talk to Reaper. And then all of a sudden, he has, like, a bunch of painful visions of torture. Then we hear Reaper. This actor was very, very good. He. His presence was excellent. His voice is just. He apparently voices a lot of video games, and he's just perfect for it.
So he says, oh, yes, take your screaming. An eternity of suffering for your sins. And then he appears. He looks very much like Jack the Ripper, speaking in an English accent. He says, at first, I get to play. And he kind of, like, fondles his torture instruments. He says, let's get started then, shall we?
The actor Simon Templeman, who plays Matthias Pavane or the Reaper, also had a reoccurring role as the angel of Death on Charmed. So kind of. Kind of a cool typecasting.
So then in Wesley's office, Angel, Gunn and Wes are doing research guns, like, got it. I found the dark soul. He says, there's, you know, 3200 different references. Four of them are about you. Angel's like, give me that. He's like, let me see. And Wesley's like, this is not helping. And it's getting us nowhere.
Angel's getting really upset. He's like, hang on. This is inaccurate and not fair because I didn't even have a soul when I did that. And then Wesley's like, there needs to be a way to narrow down the search. Fred comes in, her hair's all wet, and she's like, reaper. A cross reference with Reaper. They're like, where did you come from that? Or like, where'd you get that? And she's like, it came to me in the shower.
So then they find out, Matthias Pavane, dark soul number 182, that he was a European aristocrat, he was a doctor nicknamed the Reaper for performing unnecessary surgery on his patients. And he worked for Wolf. Well, didn't work for Wolverman Hart. They apparently wanted to create a site where Wolfram and Hart is now, but it was consecrated ground, so they needed to have a deconsecration, essentially. So they picked someone vicious to murder on the grounds to help Deconsecrate it.
[00:55:39] Speaker B: And to murder other dead people.
[00:55:41] Speaker A: Yeah. To murder other dead people. Yep. That's.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: That's crazy. Oh, but he's not technically dead.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: He is technically dead. Yeah, but he.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Oh, he is. Okay.
[00:55:50] Speaker A: He's a ghost. He's refusing to go to hell, so he's sacrificing the others.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: So that he doesn't have to go to hell. Yeah.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: Okay. Yes.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. So they're like, hang on. He should be in hell. And then Angel's like, you said something about the dark arts, right? Maybe he knew enough to figure out a way to stick around. And Fred's like, that might explain why the mystics can't get a beat on him, too. And Angel's like, that's when they figure out, hang on. What if he's. Pavane is munching on all the ghosts that should actually be here. And then Fred's like, well, whatever's happening, we need to get Spike Spook back, because he might be next. So cut to the science laboratory. Spike is getting tortured by Pavane. There's cuts all over his hands and face. He says, go to hell. Pavane says, your journey, not mine. Fred walks back into the offices. Gross stuff about her.
And then Spike tries to punch at Pavane's head, but his. His fist goes right through it. And then they suddenly appear in the basement again. And Pavane's basically like, hey, all the rules are mine. I can bend reality. I can make things appear the way that I want them to, even if that's not actually how they are. And Spike's like, hang on. I didn't just fade away that it's been you for episodes now. You're the reason keep not being able to be seen by everybody else. The vein's like, yeah, those parlor tricks to amuse. And then he's like, hey, your wound's completely gone now, because I wish it. He says, nothing here without the will. Your voice, your body. And then he said, and then the other ghosts, the other spooks come in, say clothes you think you wear, and then Spikes completely naked. So this is a really interesting thing. And, like, since we're comparing angel and Spike this season, as the writers are also doing reading, angel talks about Spike's objection. And then, particularly in this episode, as he's both a ghost and a vampire, so they talk about how Spike's position is complex due to his status as a ghost. It says, Spike's liminality straddles life and death on two levels. Not only is he the complicated hybrid of a ghost of a vampire, but he too possesses a soul. Ghosts themselves have been subject to much critical analysis, and Samuel Chambers has argued that ghosts are particularly liminal signifiers. For Chambers, the constant appearance of ghosts thereby marks a queer space. In the most general sense, the realm of the specter is a place in which characters renegotiate boundaries, and such identity work can only go in on in the liminal realm inhabited by ghosts, specters, and assorted others. Also addressing spectrality, Catherine Folks has argued that although the corpse in Horror cannot can be considered abject because it is a body without a soul, the abject zombie vampire nevertheless lacks precisely what the returning dead possess in ghost films a soul. Spike's ghostly status hence aligns him more with this anti objection archetype than with all than with that of the vampire. As Folks notes, the figure of the ghost rejects the abject corpse as a thematic of death and instead plies the possibilities of connecting across forbidden boundaries by erasing, except expelling or disavowing the object. Despite this, we would suggest the vampire ghost Spike can readily be analyzed as a version of abjected and feminized masculinity. Although once again this does not exhaust the character's relationship to the object. Very wordy, but basically saying, like, the vampire and the ghost, kind of like I was saying earlier, they kind of like cancel each other out a little bit. And they go on to talk about this episode. In particular in Hellbound, they talked about how Spike is fighting to avoid being pulled into Hell by Pavane. They said, afraid that he. That this means he is damned for his previous evil deeds. Spike is haunted by gruesome images of dead employees. This is one of Angel's most horrific episodes, and the horror serves to highlight Spike's status as a confused, monstrous figure. For much of the episode, he is invisible to other characters and unable to communicate, a trait which Foukes notes makes the ghost a humiliated and impotent subject and becomes a delaying tactic in the narrative, which this is what we've been talking about. They're kind of delaying having Spike being completely corporeal again because they're not ready to have him make the decisions he's going to make. Spike's impotence and emasculation in this episode are furthered when Pavane strips him of his clothing and forces him to fight naked. The spectacle of Spike's naked body symbolically castrates him and subjects him to the possibility of the female gaze. In Folks reading of the Gendering of ghosts. She argues that although a male ghost may take up a feminine position in a narrative, this feminine position must be reconciled with the physical presence of the actor playing the role. The visual presence of gender is precisely what makes the gender switching aspect of the ghost compelling to film as opposed to a non visual medium. The visual presence of a male actor playing an ineffectual character establishes the incontrovertible evidence of maleness which is necessary to establish the fantasy of role reversal in the first place. It is precisely Spike's masculinity that makes his feminization possible. According to the ineffectual and decorporealized vampire ghost, Spike is both masculine and feminine. As by casting male actors as ineffectual and feminized ghosts posts, male and female viewers can accept a feminized male without impugning the masculinity of the the protagonist. So this is all going to make more sense once we get to damage when the show starts to kind of reframe Spike a little bit. Right now what they're trying to do is they're trying to show a different type of objection. It's another way of victimizing Spike. It's another way of reframing him. And in the. The passage concludes by talking about both angel and Spike because they're. They talk about how angel has been shown as abject by being tortured by Darla and how he got his soul and all that stuff. And so they're talking about how angel and Spike are thus objected at the level of their narrative agency or generic and narrative role, as well as being abjected in the more usual ways that vampires and ghosts are. So both characters a compounded series of abjections, vampire and soul ghost, as well as becoming abject at the level of their horror genre identity as monsters and victims. And that if, you know, moving on, you can kind of see where this is coming from. There is going to be a really interesting narrative that is going to continue through the season. So I felt that was. I know that's like super wordy, but that was interesting to. To pick up. But I also want to point out too, I read you can cut this out if you want to, but I, I saw this horrible comment that someone left on somebody's review of this episode where they talked about how this scene kind of appeared rapey to them in the moment when Pavane grabbed Spike by the hair and was holding him up. And you kind of saw Pavane behind. But they were like, it turned me on. It was so like Rapey. And it was disgusting and stuff. But I think it's interesting how. I think there is an element of this show that is trying to kind of convey this helplessness that Spike has in, like, they're stripping him of everything, both physically and metaphorically, to kind of show Spike taking back his power. But it's also another way to like, move into later on in future episodes and stuff. So it's interesting, but. Yeah. So we can talk about it more fully when we get to the other episodes.
[01:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah, but, yeah, this is literally just like the beginning, I feel like.
[01:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Of like, you know, a later problem.
[01:03:11] Speaker A: A later problem problem.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: But like, a later discussion.
[01:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. One of my favorite discussions, actually, of the series, but for sure.
So, anyway, Spike is still being tortured. All the ghosts and spooks are like, you know, all your hidden, sturdy, red things that you've done. And then he says, little Nancy, still crying for his mother. Ooh. I like how it kind of unpacks all the stuff from season seven of Buffy and kind of makes fun of him. Know all your hidden, dirty, red things you've done. Then fell in love, Won himself a soul. No more dirty things. Thinks himself special. Thinks it matters. Hell still waits. Knows he deserves it like all the others. And then Pavane says that he killed all the other ghosts, or I guess they died. And then he has been feeding them to Hell so that he doesn't have to go there himself. And then the hanging man ends up attacking Spike. And then we get back to Fred's office and she's now writing formulas on the windows. Wesley comes in and is like, oh, that's never good. He's like, oh, no, I just ran out of room on the whiteboard. I'm not crazy again. Which I do like that because Fred is standing up for Spike, saying, hey, Spike's not crazy, because she knows what it feels like to be called crazy herself.
[01:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[01:04:29] Speaker A: I do, too. And I think that it's. It gives a relatability for Fred and Spike. I think she also feels.
Feels for Spike because she was trapped and she was lonely, and she wishes someone would have really helped her, too. So I. I do understand why Fred would be helping him. And I like that they have these hints that it's not a physical attraction, that there's something else there, too.
[01:04:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I do like that, because I feel like although the episode is obviously, like, pushing them together, I never once felt like it was in a romantic sense. It very much feels like a friendship. Like a friendship is developing between these Two characters. And I like that.
[01:05:08] Speaker A: I agree.
So then Fred's like, hey, I figured out a way. And then Angel's like, okay, first we'll try to get Spike back, and then we'll deal with Pavane. And Fred's like, hang on. But we need a massive surge of dark energy. Where are we going to get this? Wesley's like, well, there's a legend of a volcano deep in the forbidden jungles of South Africa.
[01:05:27] Speaker B: Of course there is.
[01:05:28] Speaker A: Like, bro, we don't have time for this.
[01:05:30] Speaker B: Conveniently, yeah.
[01:05:33] Speaker A: And Gun's like, actually, how about we do something a little bit closer to home? So then angel and Gun go into the white room. Angel's like, I'm not comfortable about this. Gun's like, don't worry. I've been here before.
And then the big cat appears. Gun kind of talks it down. He's like, hey, I'm a personal favor to ask for you. And he's like, who's a good kitty? Angel's like, who are you? I've never seen this before.
Back in the basement, this is where we have the portal to hell opening up. And Pavane's like, oh, this is disappointing. As Spike's just, like, laying on there on the floor, he's like, I expected more from the soul of a vampire. Too much conscience, perhaps, weighing it down. And then Pavane's like, look, hell's just ready for you. Spike has more visions and flashes of being tortured.
And then I. I like how we have, like, this, like, his shame and his guilt. The idea of, like, your soul, how it's weighing him down, causes him to suffer if he stays. But he's also going to be physically tormented if he goes to Hell. I like that. Pavane points that out. He's like, you're beginning to understand, aren't you? The soul that blesses you, damns you to suffer forever. Which I'm like, yes. That's the thing.
[01:06:40] Speaker B: Which Spike hasn't considered. Spike doesn't think this way. Which. This is your reality. I've seen a lot of people say that. Like, Spike doesn't feel bad about the things that he did because he separates himself from, like, his.
[01:06:54] Speaker A: He.
[01:06:54] Speaker B: He knows that he's not responsible for the stuff that his soulless self did. But I think we've, like, established that everybody views lore, soul lore differently whether angel and Angelus are the same person or not, or whether Spike and with without a soul or the same person or not. But, like, at the end of the day, somebody who's Insold and whose body committed those crimes, you're gonna feel you should some type. You should feel some type of responsibility for that. Or like guilt or just something. Right. Like it doesn't just turn off just because.
[01:07:27] Speaker A: Well, or if it does, then you're a warren.
[01:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:07:29] Speaker A: You know.
[01:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, exactly. The fact that you have a soul now means that you're able to feel that guilt. I feel like Spike hasn't shown to feel guilt. I think in Buffy season seven, the most that he's shown is like, he feels guilty for hurting Buffy, even though he never actually apologizes for anything.
[01:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:48] Speaker B: But we never actually see Spike. Consider that I spent a hundred plus years being an evil, soulless vampire. The way that he sees it is I have a soul now, so I'm good.
[01:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:01] Speaker B: Which is fine. There should be that, like, positivity. But you also can't grow as a person. And that's why Spike is aimless. That's why Spike needs to hang on the coattails of Buffy in order to like, do anything of value. You know, he wouldn't make that choice by himself because he hasn't considered why he has to make that choice.
[01:08:20] Speaker A: Totally.
[01:08:21] Speaker B: So he just follows along with whoever is, like, guiding him.
[01:08:25] Speaker A: Right, Right. Because he doesn't want to have to. He isn't used to, nor does he want to have to make decisions on his own because he sees no reason to. You know, he needs to actually feel remorse and understand the weight of what he did because then maybe it will drive him to make decisions that are for the good of others.
[01:08:42] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And season seven of Buffy is so interesting because the. Any talk about Spike's redemption or his past is always framed in to his relationship with Buffy. And those two things, and this is what we've been talking about a lot, those two things need to be separated. There needs to be, like, his relationship with Buffy and there needs to be his redemption arc. And I really like that this is kind of peeling those two things apart because that's what needs to happen. You know, for sure.
[01:09:11] Speaker B: Spike can't be his own person and can't make an actual meaningful change in the world unless he decides to make that choice to do it.
[01:09:21] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:09:22] Speaker B: And in order for him to do that, he needs to face his past and he needs to understand why he's doing what he's doing. You know, like, he's not a human. He's not the vampire Slayer. He doesn't have this built in moral code like Buffy does. For example. Yes. He can model his behavior after Buffy but that's still mimicking something that's not actually embodying that thing.
[01:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. What are his convictions? And that's at the end of the day. And that's what this episode's about. You know, what is your will? What do you want? Spike. And move towards that. Yeah.
[01:09:56] Speaker B: And I think it's just so interesting because the thing that makes angel and Spike's and Soulman so different. Like, yeah, Spike went and got a soul, but Spike also had a support system. Right. When he got a soul, which he got for selfish reasons. I mean, let's reiterate that.
But, like, he had a moral code to model his ensouled version off of because he had been chipped for two years.
[01:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:10:22] Speaker B: He went and he got a soul. He had Buffy to support him. He had a mission that was centering him. So, like, of course Spike is just going to go into that and be like, oh, I don't need to do anything else because I have it all set out and I'm perfect, and blah, blah, blah, versus angel, who got a soul, had no one tried to go back to Darla. That didn't work. So then he was literally completely alone for almost 100 years. Didn't have any, like, example of a moral code until he met Buffy. And then that's when his. His hero's journey began, you know, so there's a huge difference. And it's like, angel went through that period of, like, discovering why he makes the choices that he does. Right. Because he had to face his past because he was literally by himself. He could do nothing else. But Spike never had that. So it's interesting that, like, the two of them get compared a lot, and they have a lot of similarities. But it's also interesting because I think their insoulmen one is not better than the other. They're just different circumstances completely. You can't compare the two insoulmans.
[01:11:27] Speaker A: But what you can compare is what they both do with those installments.
[01:11:31] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:11:31] Speaker A: Exactly.
[01:11:32] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Because that's what really matters. Right? And just because you have a soul doesn't mean you're going to do good with it. Doesn't mean you are doing good with it. It just means now you have. Now you are capable of having a choice. And I think people forget this constantly. It's like, again, I keep bringing up Warren. Warren had a soul, but he chose evil. Just because Spike has a soul in season seven. And that's often what season seven does, is it makes the argument, oh, he has a soul, so therefore he's good now. And it's like, no, no, he's got to earn that.
[01:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And he arguably doesn't in season seven.
[01:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:12:11] Speaker B: Which, like this conversation, kind of puts into perspective more of Buffy's state of mind in season seven, where she's like, I know he can be a good man. And she really believes that. And that, I think, aligns with Buffy's character. But I think. Think after everything that happened in season six, that shouldn't be Buffy's job.
[01:12:28] Speaker A: Oh, 100. No.
[01:12:30] Speaker B: You know, 100.
[01:12:31] Speaker A: No.
[01:12:31] Speaker B: But we're, like, saying kind of the same thing now, where it's like, now that he has a soul, he deserves a chance to earn that soul. And he can be a good man. Right.
But I just don't think that that's. That should be Buffy's job to champion.
[01:12:47] Speaker A: Absolutely not. No.
[01:12:48] Speaker B: On Spike's behalf, you know?
[01:12:50] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. And the show doesn't agree with us on that.
[01:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:56] Speaker A: Which is frustrating. It's like my number one beef with season seven, but.
[01:13:00] Speaker B: Right.
[01:13:00] Speaker A: Go listen to becoming Buffy. If you guys want to hear more about that. Yeah.
About that. Because I will. All right. So then Pavane's holding Spike to his feet to the fire, essentially. And then Spike goes, you know what? You're right. I do deserve to go to hell. But not today. He squirms free, knocks Pavane off of him, stands up. And then Pavane's like, you dare? And Spike says, quite a bit, mate. Really? Reality bends to desire. That was it. Right? That's why I could touch Fred. Write your name in the glass. All I had to do was want it bad enough. And then, bam. He looks down and his jacket and all his clothes are back on. His jacket being a symbol of his identity.
And then he's like, all right. And I guess what I want to do now. You prissy son of a bitch. So then an Angel's office. Spike punches Pavane through a wall. They're now standing in an office instead of the basement. He says, keen little racket you've got carved out for yourself. Prying off spirits and sucking them down the chute. Kept your own toasties out of the fire, didn't it? Till now. And then Pavane starts to fight back. So the two of them go at it in the lab. Fred and Wes are working on this machine while Gun and Angel walk in with the dark matter stuff and guns. Like, hey, we aren't getting any more. This is like. We only have one take. That's all we have.
So then Fred puts the flask in the machine, and they're like, how do we let Spike know? And they're like, Wesley and Fred are like, oh, it'll put out enough juice that they'll. Anything remotely spectral on here is gonna figure it out and come in. So they start to, like, light it up. Pavane and Spike fight. Come through. Pavane says, learned a few of my tricks. Means nothing, does it? I've cheated hell for hundreds of years. Now in this realm, I am God and you are wood for the fire.
So then in the science lab, Fred's like, oh, they're here. They're waiting by the machine. And then she says, spike, step into the circle. Hurry. We've only got one chance. Suddenly, she starts choking. We see Pavane is now grasping her throat with his hand. Pavine's like, why would I. Why would I ever want to do that? And all the guys rush towards Fred, but Pavane knocks them all across the room. I guess he's able to touch all of them. So I guess maybe he did do that.
[01:15:12] Speaker B: He's so powerful.
[01:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah, they just really don't explain very much about it.
[01:15:16] Speaker B: Maybe because he has been taking the souls of other dead people.
[01:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess it makes sense, too, if he wants it bad enough. Just like, Spike is able to touch them and stuff, so is Pavane.
Anyway, so then Spike sees that Pavane has. Is saying, hey, listen, it's either save the girl or, you know, you can go inside and become corporeal again. And so then Spike rushes for Pavane wool and then disappears. Reappears right next to Fred, knocks Pavane into the machine's ring. Just as it activates. Pavane is now corporeal. Angel gets up, walks the machine's ring, while Gun and Wes go to Fred's side and then Spikes. Or Angel's just like, you shut the hell up. And knocks Pavane out, who's like, no, I'll cut you into nothing. I'll feast on your brains. I'll swim in lakes of your own blood. And then Spike's like, don't kill him. If he becomes a spirit again, we'll never stop him. And just like, fine. No killing. Just a whole lot of bruising. Punches him again.
So then we're back in the science lab. Wes and Gun are helping Fred clean up her lab. And she's just completely dejected because you could tell, she was like, this was like our one shot. We ruined it. So they tell her to go you know, take some time. And she walks into her office and there's Spike. He's like, don't you suppose you built a spare? And she says, most of the pieces I used on this one were practically non existent to start with. I'm sorry. And he says, don't be loved. Made my choice. Wouldn't change it for the world. She says, there are other things we could try. They're a little risky, riskier. And he goes, no. I'm not going to end up like Pavane, cheating hell any way he could, no matter who it hurt. Ooh, growth.
[01:17:00] Speaker B: Whoa. I like that.
[01:17:01] Speaker A: I sense growth. Yeah, she says. Just proves what I've been telling everybody. He says, what? That I'm handsome? A handsome devil who brightens the place up. She says, know that you're worth saving. And he says, don't have it so bad. Really? Plenty of room, good company. Even picked up a few new tricks. And then we see that he goes. And he grabs her coffee mug and can pick it up. And he goes. I guess there's worse things than being a ghost. Yeah. Cut to the basement. Pavane is in a restraining cell only a few feet wide. He's standing, and it's strapped in by metal bars with electrodes attached to his head that keep him frozen. An angel and Eve are standing in front of him. And Eve's like, permanent storage. If there's anything Wolfram and Hart excels at, it's keeping their unmentionables unmentioned. Ain't that the truth? So then angel says, congratulations. You get to live forever, unable to move, to touch or to feel or to affect anything in the world around you. But don't worry, I had him give you a window. And I was like, ooh.
[01:18:00] Speaker B: Like his. It's like when angel was in the.
[01:18:02] Speaker A: In the ocean. Yeah.
[01:18:04] Speaker B: Oh, no. He's like, I know this Hell.
[01:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally. So he shuts the door, and then we just close out as we zoom in on Pavain's eye through the hole. And the angel walks away with Eve and says, welcome to hell. Yikes. Last scene was pretty cool, too.
[01:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that was really cool.
[01:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. But I like the idea of, like, how hell is being frozen in this Arrested Development, which is what Spike has been in for forever. And Spike's like, hang on. I still have free will. And that means that I'm actually not as frozen as I thought I was before. Which is a really good first step for him in his redemption.
[01:18:44] Speaker B: So for sure. And he, like, put somebody before himself, you know?
[01:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm excited. I am excited for the rest of Spike's journey. I'm just ready to, like, let's see him making some decisions here, you know?
[01:18:57] Speaker B: For sure. For sure.
[01:19:00] Speaker A: All right, guys, let us know your thoughts on the episode. And let us know. Do you guys feel like. Because I know this is. This is something that I've heard from a lot of people. Do you guys feel like Spike does take up a lot of space in season five from the other cast? Do you guys feel like is a rehashing of season seven of Buffy, or do you guys feel like we're actually making some progress and seeing some changes in Spike? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. So, yeah. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you guys next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating Angel Podcast, and you can email [email protected].
