S5. Ep11. Damage

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an angel rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast where we analyze each episode of angel the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you foreign. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today we're Talking about Season 5, Episode 11, Damage, written by Stephen Denight and Drew Goddard, directed by Jefferson Kibby, and aired at January 28, 2004. And I've realized. So Drew Goddard was kind of a late addition to both Buffy and Angel as a writer, but I'm realizing that a lot of his episodes that he wrote, because I'm going through, obviously, season seven of Buffy, I really enjoy. We just released Selfless from season seven of Buffy yesterday, and I love that episode. I think it's, like, the best episode of season seven. And he wrote that one. And he wrote Dirty Girls as well. Well, he says he wrote it, but Joss Whedon also wrote 80 of it, so maybe there's that, too. But I'm finding that a lot of the episodes that he wrote have some really, like, good themes and have a little bit more meat to them, and this is definitely one. And this also has Stephen Tonight's, like, fingerprints all over it. [00:01:32] Speaker B: But, yeah. Yeah. [00:01:33] Speaker A: What do you think of the episode? [00:01:35] Speaker B: This is a great episode. [00:01:37] Speaker A: So good. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Just one of the best, I think, of the show. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Like, it was just so good. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Just so many moments. So many, like, meaningful moments. And I was telling you this before, but the last scene between angel and Spike is, like, probably one of the most meaningful exchanges between two characters in the Buffyverse. And there's a lot of exchanges like this in the Buffy verse, so that's saying a lot. But, yeah, I just. I. It was so nice to revisit, like, the Buffy universe through this episode, but it also still felt like an angel episode. So I really like that, and I really like what it does for Spike, what. What we learned about angel. And, like, both of them, like, I just thought it was. It was amazing. Like, such a good episode. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think I've said it before, but this is one of my favorite episodes of the season. Or, sorry, the series, also the season, just because I am a huge sucker for anything that really delves into, like, the Slayer lore and opens up the world a little bit more. And I love how this episode addresses the consequences of Chosen, and not necessarily in a positive light. And anytime we get Slayer layers, it's such a huge callback to Buffy. This episode was also so epic. I felt like it was One of the first times this season that I felt like I saw the return of old angel in, like, true fashion. I mean, we've seen glimpses, glimpses of him here and there this season, but this episode, I was like, ah, there's my broody boy. Like, there he is. And, like, the weight of everything. And then I also really like Spike in this episode. And I've talked with a lot of people, and a lot of. A lot of us agree that this is the episode where Spike's character actually makes a huge jump forward. And it's actually the episode where I feel like, for the first time, Spike understands what he's done. And there's a little bit of remorse there in a way that we've not seen it before. Like, early season seven, Spike is bogged down a lot by shame. And I don't know that shame is necessarily a healthy way of going through with repentance and all that stuff. Like, we shouldn't be beating ourselves up, but there needs to be remorse, and there needs to be, like, this desire to change and this need for change. And I don't think Spike ever saw that other than, oh, I just want Buffy to love me. I want Buffy to be proud of me or whatever woman he's obsessed with. And this episode was just. Oh, it was so. It was so refreshing. And honestly, there was a lot of things that the episode was referring to that just was, like. It made me feel validated with some of the opinions I've had for Spike for seasons over on Buffy, because sometimes it feels like the show gaslights us, but this one, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, the writers actually had an intention with it, and, like, they're seeing it, too. So it was refreshing. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think the last scene between the two of them really highlights why they deal with their souls the way they deal with them. Even Spike in season seven like, it. It kind of gives you an insight into why he is the way he is, but it also kind of brings them together. Like, at the end of the day, it's showing their differences, but it's also showing the similarities in that, like, you guys did terrible when you didn't have souls. And it doesn't matter why you did it, but what matters is that you acknowledge that it happened and that you can't, like, change it. Like, you can't take it back. You can't ignore it. It's going to come back and bite you in the ass. And I think I really like the way this episode did that with Spike. Because although Dana wasn't somebody from his past, I really like that they bring back the two slayers, even metaphorically or through her. Um, and it's literally like, Spikes past, like, looking him right in the eye and being like, I'm here. You know? And I think he really needed that because I felt like they tried to do that in season seven, but like you said, it was so gaslighty. Like, lies my parents told me and how he, like, responds to Robin. And it's like, this is a world of difference, and this is how that should have been done from the beginning. But maybe he just. He needed the time to kind of get to this place. He needed to be around Angel. Like, I think there's circumstances that play into it, too. But, yeah, it was just so good. And it. It makes me, like. It makes me even angrier about season seven almost, because I'm like, you guys could have done so much more meaningful work for Spike. And I just can never agree with somebody who watches this season and thinks it's out of character for Spike or, like, they're doing Spike a disservice. I just will never agree with that. I will never, ever agree with that. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It's. It's so funny because, I mean, I was telling you, but I literally just recorded lies my parents told me. And it's so, so weird that both these episodes ended up getting, like, recorded around the same time. And it's been so interesting watching both of them and comparing and being like, I kind of. And I said this in our episode, which you guys will hear when it eventually releases. But I was like, I have to view lies my parents told me with the mindset that Spike's character arc is not done. Because I think there's this tendency when you watch season seven of Buffy that, like, the show's obviously trying to wrap things up in a. In a certain way because they are ending the series. But I think in a lot of ways, if I view the episode as the writers aren't intending to showcase Spike in the most flattering light, and he's not technically supposed to be doing good in that episode, that it makes it. It makes it easier for me to watch and for me to go, okay, this is not the end of his story, and they're going to continue into Angel Season 5. But, yeah, well, that. That's a really rough one. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it just further reinforces, too, that, like, Buffy is not Spike is not his best self when he's around Buffy whatsoever. [00:07:41] Speaker A: And how fitting in this episode to have that. It's Angel. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's Angel. But also that. How fitting is it that it's a slayer, that they use this episode to be the one that makes Spike realize all the pain that he's done? Like, there's just something very poetic in this one, you know? You know, you have. You have the Chinese slayer, you have Nicky Wood, and then you have Buffy, and then you even have comparisons to Drusilla, which really is great with showing the parallels between angel and Spike, because Drusilla is a product of angel, but then she was the paramore of Spike. And so it's just. It's so fascinating how they use Dana as a way of showing Spike's obsession with women, especially powerful women, and with slayers and how. Yeah, all of that stuff at the very end. So I don't know. As I was watching this episode, I was just getting so excited. I knew I was gonna love it, but I hadn't quite remembered everything. And just the more that I went on, I was like, oh, this episode just is everything that I wanted and more. So. So I love it. All right, so Damage. The title is very fitting. Refers to the damage that Dana causes that was done to her mental state, the damage that Spike and Angel have caused in people's lives, including other slayers, the damage angel has done with his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies, and damage that Buffy has done in enacting that spell in Chosen, which is one of my favorite things. And I. That's something. I mean, I. We've talked about it on the Discord. I don't know that the continuation will really focus on it all that much. But I really am excited to see how the world is going to play out with multiple slayers and how, like, that's not always going to be positive. So it's very gutsy, honestly, for the show to do that. And then this episode is a bit vague on how, like, aware Dana is about what she's doing and whether or not she's consciously tormenting people versus, like, thinking she's going after her abuser and just being confused. And I do think that, like, once again, the show is kind of, like, has issues with the mental health aspect of it because that's not really addressed as a non negative or a non stigmatized way. And so I think that Dana has a lot more about her that is very sympathetic versus how they chose to, like, the conclusion of the episode in a lot of ways, about Spike and Angel saying that, you know, she's a monster. Now. And it's like, I understand, like, where it. What they're trying to do when it comes to, like, angel and Spike. But I do think that there's a little bit more sympathy with Dana. But again, it's just a product of the time and stuff. And then all things philosophical said this, and I really like it. In talking about how it's really interesting to watch the Spike in Angel Dynamic. They said angel thinks it through, asks advice, questions. The nurse looks at the data, analyzes it, considers his options, discovers Dana's a slayer before Spike does. Had Wes call Buffy's group, even sets up a tactical team to back him up. Spike rushes out, does it, gets into the. Gets the info he needs, then takes off. Impulse, chaotic. He finds the girl faster than angel, using his body to do so. His sense of smell, his hearing, his senses. So this episode does such a good job. And you kind of are talking about this, about comparing and showing, like, what makes these two guys distinct. But the best part about the very end is it shows, like, how they're the same. And, like, basically says it doesn't matter. Like, we were talking about it earlier, like, it doesn't matter how they both get to the conclusion. The point is that they get to the same conclusion at the end. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, they're always going to get to the same conclusion. There's no other, like, way to look at it at the end of the day. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's also refreshing because finally Spike gets to that conclusion. We've been waiting half the season for him to get there, you know, and I think. [00:11:23] Speaker B: And I was, again, we were texting about this earlier, but I think that there's. It's explained why it takes Spike longer to get to this conclusion than it takes Angel. And it has everything to do with who they were as vampires. Right. And how they go about, like, moving through the world. Angel's a lot more strategic and he thinks his plans out very carefully. And he likes to, like, be a few steps ahead of his opponent or whatever. Spike is very impulsive and doesn't really think about things. And that gen, that literally explains exactly how they even deal with their souls and, like, everything that happens in their life. So, yeah, if anybody ever wants to, like, figure out why they are the way they are, like, this is the episode. This is the episode. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Totally. And I think it's so fun to watch the subtle shift in this episode of trying to integrate Spike a little bit more with the Angel Investigations team, but also kind of the transition between Spike and Angel's relationship they're not necessarily going to trust each other all that much, but they're starting to be a little bit. There's like, a shared camaraderie in a lot of ways of, like, oh, I see you, you see me. We don't necessarily like each other. We bring out the worst in each other, but there's a. Hey, we have shared experiences now, and I really like that. And finally. Oh, my gosh. Waited half the season. It's good. But. All right, so we start off in the hospital, psych psychiatric ward. We have the doctor talking to the nurse, and then we hear, like, this booming noise. Oh, this. This episode has so many epic moments. And, like, I literally got goosebumps when angel was, like, calling Spike on the phone, and he was like, or not Spike. He was calling the team. He was talking to Wes, and he's like, she's a slayer. And I was like, oh, chills. Yeah, love it. Yeah, I'm a sucker. The doctor ends up finding out that one of the other patients, the nurse, had gotten their medication mixed up and had given basically, like, a sleeping, like, sedative to this other patient and had not given it to, as we come to find out, Dana. So the doctor is, like, freaking out because he knows how strong Dana is. And then we hear the banging again. And then with this just. Oh, what an entrance, right? So he grabs, like, one of the male nurses for assistance, and then he's walking through and, like, opens up the gated hallway. And then it's, like, trying to approach this door at the end of the hallway. The. The banging stops. And then all of a sudden, the whole door just violently gets blocked, pushed off its hinges. And then we see Dana, like, you know, her hair and her hospital gown are all disheveled, and she's. [00:14:01] Speaker B: It's giving 11 from Stranger Things. [00:14:03] Speaker A: And I just love it. I just love Dana. The actress who portrayed her as, well, Navi Rawat, I think is her name. Rawat. She plays Teresa at the OC And Amita in Numbers. I've not seen either of those, but I'm sure someone has. What a great actress. The way that she portrays Dana as confused and enraged but vulnerable. Like, there's so many emotions, and she had very little lines, so. Yeah, yeah, very true. I want to know more about Dana, honestly. So then the doctor is talking to her and is like, hey, you know, you're very sick. Calls her Dana. And then him and the male nurse, like, back in past the gate and lock it. But then Dana, of course, sees a syringe that they would use to sedate her. And it triggers her. And then she pulls the gate off its hinges and then goes after the male nurse and then ends up, like, pushing one of them through glass. And then as she's going around the doctor's, like, backing away, she sees a bone saw. And then she ends up slashing one of the male nurses and then ends up cutting his head. It was, like, really, the sound effects. [00:15:14] Speaker B: She's having, like, flashbacks during this whole thing, too. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, they did a very good job of setting it up. Like, okay, this girl clearly is not mentally well. And so then she beheads the guy, and then she uses his blood and, like, uses her hand and, like, marks the front of her face very similar to the first Slayer and then even to Buffy and Restless and stuff. Ugh. So good. Right? So then we are now in Wolfram and Hart. And I thought this one scene of Gun told me so much about where he's at and what's going on with him. [00:15:47] Speaker B: Fully drank the Kool Aid. [00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was like. I said something happening with Gun soon. Like, I can, like. It feels like the show is ramping up, and I was getting really excited. Yeah. He is all, like, talking about how they have inserted, like, the ability to play golf and how he is now out, like, hanging out with a bunch of attorneys and basically trying to convince them, like, to cut deals before they even go to juries. And he says, sometimes you got to work the system to Fred before it works you. And I'm like, this is such an interesting shift in Gun because he was the guy who was unhappy with how everything was being done in season four, how they had strayed away from the mission. And now he's the one that is fully embracing Wolfram and Hart probably harder than anyone else is in the gang. And it's just sad because we understand fully why. Because he feels like he's making a difference and he's doing effective work, but he doesn't notice how much he's compromising in the process. And it's just like he's compromising the writing himself. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Like, his personality, the things that make him unique. And. Yeah, it is. Yeah. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Yep. It's a little sad, but it's also like a kind of. Kind of want to see it. Kind of want to see it all fall apart. So he's like, end of the day, I'm thinking we made the right choice. Then they go into Angel's office. He's talking with Wesley and Lauren and, you know, to contrast Guns Surety, he's like, maybe we made a mistake coming here. And then Lauren and Angel tell Fred and Gun about how Eve, like. Like, they kind of catch each other up on everything that's going on. Obviously, everybody was there for the last episode, and they're trying to decide what they're going to do with her. They talked about maybe firing her. And then, like, Gun is the one that isn't necessarily advocating for Eve, but he's kind of like, well, we don't actually know what happened. Like, a lot of it's just conjecture. We're, like, putting allegedly, Allegedly. And Angel's like, you don't believe me? And he's like, it's not about what I believe. It's about the evidence. And Wesley's like, this isn't a courtroom, Gun. Like, things work with a bit more immediacy in the real world. Also, we're friends. And Guns, like, she's liaison to the senior partners. You don't get to be that without serious juice. Move against her without solid proof, and it could end in a long, bloody fight. And angel is just, like, worn down. This man is just so done with bureaucracy and red tape. He's like, oh, I think I liked you better when you just wanted to hit people. And I'm like, okay. [00:18:20] Speaker B: But he did other stuff than wanting to hit people. And I think this is the part that, like, kind of just bothered me about this whole thing. Because on the one hand, like, the way that Gun is acting really worries me about where he's headed. But at the same time, I feel like they don't appreciate him for how he was before. So where does he go from here? You know? Like, I don't agree that he was just somebody who hit things before. He was, like, a valuable member of the team for many other reasons. But this Gun is almost like. It's almost like he sold his soul to the devil. That's pretty much what he brain. And he sold his, like, yeah. And it's just very sinister, which is interesting. I'm not saying it's not interesting. [00:19:07] Speaker A: No. [00:19:07] Speaker B: Right. It's just like this or that. There's no, like, third option. And I'm like, I wish there was, like, a third option. [00:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's. It's hard, too, because it's like, there's the whole racial element, too, of almost, like, sacrificing his blackness and becoming even more, like, whitewashed as he assimilates into white lawyer culture and how. It just would be really nice if there was a way for him to be really smart and Using his smarts, but then also able to be the muscle in a lot of ways, too, and also be a fighter. And, like, it's not. There's so much typecasting with these characters. They have to be this thing, and you can't really bleed over unless you're a science person, in which case you can do everything. Sciency physics and computer tech and hacker and a person that can rewire elevators. I don't know. Like, they just kind of. Or, like, you know, even Wesley. Like, Wesley's the bookish one, but then he also is smart enough to do some science experiments as well. So it's like, why can't gun also be multi layered? And why does it always have to be an evil thing, too? [00:20:14] Speaker B: Well, I think hopefully this is going somewhere. There's, like, a greater story to this, so we'll just have to wait and see. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Okay. All right. So Angel's like, guns, right? We can't risk anything yet. And guns. Like, we'll restrict her access, and then we will keep a closer eye on her. Harmony walks in, super urgent. Is like, boss, we just got a tip. And then she's like, some loonies hatched from the in. And Angel's like, speak English, Harmony. I don't know what you're talking about. She says, a girl over in the nut house, when all Cuckoo's Nest hacked up a couple of guards and went over the wall. Angel's like, and you're telling me this why? And Wesley's like, just notify the authorities. Make sure they're on it. And she's like, okay, but they better bring a priest. Looks like this chick's gone all kinds of exorcist. Angel's like, hang on. Why didn't you tell me this before? Wesley's like, I'll get a team together. And Angel's like, hang on. Like, I'm gonna go do it. Because we have to handle this very sensitively and carefully because I've seen a few of these possession cases, which I find very funny, because the last Wesley. So has Wesley. Yeah. They were both there and doing this technically. Like, Wesley was doing it initially. And, yeah, Wesley's forgotten everything with the. The brain wipe with Connor. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yes. That was one of the things that got. [00:21:30] Speaker A: He's like, got it. We got to take away this. This is so relevant and important. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Technically, it was a. It was a traumatic experience for him because the. At him and, like, dragged him to hell and back. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Well, and then he had, like, the cross that went inside his throat, which I love. How they treated that as a minor wound. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he's fine. [00:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah, he just can't speak ever again. That's why he talks. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Wesley's throat is hanging on by a thread at this point. [00:21:57] Speaker A: Let's hope he doesn't get, you know, cut again. Hey. Oh, no. All parallels love to see it. They're soul mates. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:22:13] Speaker A: Just kidding. All right, so back in the psych ward. I love how we have the elevator opening, and it's like, Spike in one, angel in the other one, both wearing long black coats. I was like, I see it. But I like how Angel's not wearing his normal leather jacket. And I realized we haven't seen brown in a while. It's like a suit jacket. [00:22:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't love it. [00:22:36] Speaker A: No, I want the old thing back. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Come on. Yeah. [00:22:38] Speaker A: So Spike turns Angel, and he's like, oh, you. And he's like, bitty slug, I save you from scramble your brains after all. Come to check yourself in. And it's just like, stupid. What are you doing here, Spike? And in. Spike's like, didn't get the memo here of the people now. Okay, good. Go and annoy them. [00:23:01] Speaker B: So then he does. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker B: So then we find out that, like, stupid cows. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:23:08] Speaker B: He does. [00:23:08] Speaker A: He's like, you stupid cow. [00:23:11] Speaker B: Stupid cow. [00:23:13] Speaker A: So problematic, but so funny. He's like, we'll go on home then. And, like, pushes her. Like, slut shames her. And you know who also slut shamed someone when they were out in the woods at night is Caleb. So come on, Spike. That episode where the. Where Caleb's like, why are you not in your bed right now? And she's like, I was in bed, and then I was chased out of it. And he was like, well, you whore. [00:23:34] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:23:36] Speaker A: I was like, okay, Spike, spook. Okay, spook. Okay. So then Spike's like, hey, I heard that something happened and one of the girls got out. Or, like, one of the. The people in the psych ward got out. Angel's like, I'll get her back without your help. Spike's like, good for you, because I'm not offering it. Angel's like, well, shouldn't you be on the streets? You're for the streets. Spike, get out. He's like, you know, protecting the city from people like you. Meanwhile, they're walking past all the damage that Dana has done. The Gates, like, destroyed and, like, twisted up, and they're still arguing like an old married couple. Spike's like, go where I'm needed. Like, make me. Angel's like, well, it isn't here. The nurse is like, wow, I'm so, so thrilled that you guys are here. You're going to be so helpful. So then the doctor also pops in and he's like, can I help you guys? And Angel's like, we're here to get your patient back. And gives his card to the doctor. And the doctor's like, well, I already told the police everything I know. And Angel's like, well, let's go over it again just in case. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Surely this is violating some HIPAA law. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Oh, 100%. [00:24:41] Speaker B: Like, just the fact that she also takes angel and just, like, shows him videotapes of a patient. And this doctor's just like, oh, a lawyer. Sure. It's not like they didn't even say, like, oh, we're the FBI. Like the guys in Supernatural do. They're just like, we're lawyers. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:56] Speaker B: And they just give them all the. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Information all over the place. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's like, a subtle thing that the doctor himself is not exactly on the up and up. So. Yeah. [00:25:12] Speaker B: I mean, yeah. Or it's just they. Everybody knows Wolfman Heart is. I don't know. And the police gives everybody that go to a go ahead to talk to Wolf Woman heart. But it's just like. Obviously it's like, not. It's not a big deal. But I'm just. I was watching and I was like, oh, my God. They're just doing whatever they want in this hospital. [00:25:30] Speaker A: They really. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Hospital for clowns. [00:25:33] Speaker A: As they're, like, shouting at each other, walking down, like, looking so professional. Right? [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker A: So then they take them to Dana's room, and Angel's like, looking at all these drawings that Dana has done. All over her wall, there's like, wolf, like, monster, cave woman. And Spike's like, oh, shoot. As he's looking around, he's like, well, that's great. And then, like, you know, gets ready to take off. It's interesting because some of the pictures that Dana draws are of the shadow men from Get It Done, which is pretty cool. Nice little continuity. [00:26:04] Speaker B: There's one of a girl in a cemetery with, like, headstones everywhere. [00:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so cool. I love it. [00:26:10] Speaker B: It is so cool. [00:26:12] Speaker A: So doctor, I think his name is Rabanaw. Dr. Rabanaw was like, you know, she was a special case. Her family was murdered in their home when she was 10. Whoever did it took Dana, tortured her for months. She was found one day, naked and bleeding, wandering the streets, barely functional, nearly catatonic ever since. And Spike's like, well, looks like she snapped out of it. Looking at all the drawings. I'm like, you are so insensitive. Go away. Go. Go call another poor woman coming home from her job at 7, 11, at 8 o'clock at night, 9 o'clock at night, and, you know, go harass her. Yeah, this is. This is our hero. And then the doctor talks about how several months ago, her condition changed. Increasing levels of agitation, accompanied by explosive outbursts of inhuman strength. And then Spike's like, yep, definitely demon possession. [00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. He's just so convinced. He's like, yeah, let's go. [00:27:02] Speaker A: One plus one equals three. Got it. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Just no thoughts. Head empty. Just so rash. Like, it's so Spike. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The doctor's like, that's literally basic instinct. Like, Spike knows how to, like, just yap and walk. That's it. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Which is so funny because a common thing that people like to say over, like, about Spike over on Buffy is, oh, he's so intuitive. And he just, like, reads people so well. And he's always, like, cutting straight to the heart of things. And I'm just like, is he, though? [00:27:33] Speaker B: He does have his moments, for sure. But that's when he, like, he's interested. I feel like he doesn't care enough about many things to be that interested. [00:27:44] Speaker A: I feel like he sees stuff when it's serves him. And when, in this case, he doesn't want it to be anything other than possession because then he can go beat her up. It's an excuse to just go after her. And. [00:27:57] Speaker B: And he's also in competition with angel right now. So he's going to be like, I figured it out first. I'm gonna do this first. Like, me. I'm gonna figure it out. But he misses, like, everything in the meantime. [00:28:09] Speaker A: Everything, everything, everything. So the Angel's like, you're not helping Spike. And Spike's like, no, I'm doing. You can hang out for the show and tell me nothing. I got a demon that needs repossessing. And I'm like, it's just. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Good luck with that, babe. [00:28:22] Speaker A: It's so interesting. The whole, like, help the helpless. Like, Spike isn't actually helping at this point. He's just doing. And it's the same thing as, like, saying that someone's hearing but not listening. And, like, I don't know, there's. There's a level of humility, too, to understand that, like, angel is qualified because he's dealt with this several times. But he himself has also been possessed. So, like, there would be. Yeah, like, they Would. Would. And the thing is that Spike has strengths too. You know, he. He takes initiative. And so if they work together, think about how much stuff they would actually get done. [00:28:52] Speaker B: One million percent. One million percent. [00:28:55] Speaker A: He grabs the drawing off the wall, goes ta. And then takes off by. [00:29:00] Speaker B: Get the hell out of here. He is such a butt. [00:29:03] Speaker A: My son were. My son learned the word lame today. He was like, that's so lame. And I was like, cracking up. And then he goes, mom, what does lame mean? And then he's now just saying it for everything. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, you're seven. How old are you? He's like, turned into a 13 year old. That's so lame. I was like, oh, gosh. [00:29:25] Speaker B: A lot of things are lame in this world. Yeah. Gotta learn. [00:29:29] Speaker A: It's so true. He's well on his way. [00:29:32] Speaker B: The first one is Spike. Spike, you're lame. [00:29:35] Speaker A: I'm gonna show him pictures. This is the definition of lame. What does lame mean? This a lame right here. He'll be like, okay, mom, okay. And so then he leaves. And Angel's like, sorry, he's a pathological actual condition. And then the doctor is like, hey, I suggest that you stop your friend. If he finds Dana, he's going to end up dead like the others. And Angel's like, oh, if only. Unfortunately, he's just going to come back. Seriously, Angel's so worn down. [00:30:12] Speaker B: He's just like so tired. [00:30:14] Speaker A: I don't care what you call yourself, how you rebrand yourself, just please go away. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Literally. [00:30:21] Speaker A: So the doctor leaves and I really, like, they don't show that the nurse is still there. And like, the way the camera pans around, it seems like Angel's talking to himself when he says, what isn't he telling me? And it's like, it's such a return to form for angel because for the longest time, remember how we were like, angel's so stupid. Like, what is going on? Yeah, this is the return of intelligent Angel. And I. I'm just like, I wanted to cry of happiness. [00:30:43] Speaker B: I love this angel. I love the angel. You can like, you can see his mind working, but he doesn't say anything. He's very subtle about it, but you can see, like, the puzzles, like, being put together in his mind. [00:30:54] Speaker A: Puzzles. Puzzling. Yep. [00:30:55] Speaker B: And he's taking information and he's just like, coming to conclusions and using all. [00:31:00] Speaker A: The knowledge that he had. And he's just caught like 10,000. [00:31:02] Speaker B: It's not even sexy brooding. He's just like, like being serious and confident and Competent. And my God, I miss that so much. [00:31:12] Speaker A: It's just so funny. I was not attracted to him at all in season three and four. Like, it's David Boreanas. There's always a level of like, oh, he's an attractive person, but, like, not. And then like this season I've just been like, oh, there he is. [00:31:24] Speaker B: There he is. [00:31:25] Speaker A: You're back. Yeah. So the nurse, like, is like, oh, hey, there's a bunch of videos that he. The doctor took up his session, and so she takes him back to her nurse's station. Then we cut to the supermarket, and Dana's still in her hospital gown and she's just like, nomming on. It's like a bunch of donuts or something in the middle of grocery aisle. And a stock boy is like, hey, you gotta pay for that. And then she. He tries to touch her on the shoulder and she grabs it and then twists it until the bones in his arm break. And then she grabs her bone saw off the shelf and then walks down the aisle and then goes to the clothing section, grab grabs a black T shirt and a pair of jeans. And then we flash to a man in a black shirt is walking by as a young girl sobs behind bars. And then he. She's like, kind of hiding from him. And then he grabs a bone saw and like, holds it over her. And we. We were like, oh, okay. So this black shirt has significance to her because it reminds her of someone from her past, most likely the guy that kidnapped her. Then also, we flash back to the present. There's a security guard holding his gun, saying, just. Just stay there. I don't want to hurt you. And then she, like, creepily, like, looks at him. And then we next cut to her walking out of the supermarket wearing her new outfit, wearing the black T shirt, the dark plaid flannel overshirt, and black jeans. And she's looking terrifying with her face streaked with blood, her hair crazy, and she's still carrying her bonesa. But, oh, there was something so cool about it. And I like that she made the conscious toy, the conscious choice to choose the weapon and similar clothing to the person that destroyed her life, essentially. Because I think that's where Spike and Angel get the whole she's one of us now, she's a monster kind of thing. But again, it's. It's not clear how much Dana is making an active choice in these things or her mind is just playing tricks on her. So back at the psych ward, Angel's looking at all the videotapes of Dana's therapy session. She's thrashing, speaking in a foreign language, breathing hard, hard. And the nurse is like, that's with the sedative. And she says that Robina, the doctor, is planning on writing a book about her. That's why he doesn't want anyone to know about these. And then he's like, oh, you were the one that called Wolfram and Hart. And we find out that she basically wants to get a job there. And that's why she's thinking if she helps him out, that he'll give her one. Angel's just like, huh. So then he goes back to a certain segment where Dana is talking, and then he realizes that she's speaking in Romanian. And we're like, ooh, this is interesting. So was there a Romanian slayer then? [00:34:08] Speaker B: Probably. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Like, that's so cool, so interesting. And also, I just love all the little nods to the curse in his backstory in this episode. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Like, oh, yeah. [00:34:18] Speaker A: So then in the supermarket we have. Or outside the supermarket, we have all these police. And then Spike, like, dips his fingertips into some random substance on the pavement and, like, smells it and then walks away. [00:34:30] Speaker B: And I was like, bruh, he's so dirty, bro. Pick up off the floor, like, what are you doing, Spike? [00:34:36] Speaker A: What even is it? Is it blood? [00:34:38] Speaker B: It's like andrew, later on when he picks up the penny and puts it in his mouth. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I wish they had showed him at the end, like, sniffling, like he got a cold or something. [00:34:48] Speaker B: A cold? More like hepatitis or something. A disease. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Oh, it's so funny. So then Wesley's office. Angel is calling him from the car, and he says, wes, it's me. Check with our police informants. Get the girl's last known sighting. I need a technical assault team on the ground in five minutes. Non lethal ordinance. Wesley's like, hey, are you sure that's wise? Like, if this is actually demeaning demonic possession, Angels like, it's not a demonic possession. And as they're talking. Oh, this is like, one of my favorite sequences. We're cutting back and forth to Dana walking around a dark room in a deserted warehouse. We hear angels. Voiceover. He says, that's not what's happening. Look, there were drawings of demons in her room. Hundreds of them. Some were a little. Some with a little girl in them. I thought it was Dana, but they're all different. It's not her. And Wesley says, are you sure? Multiple personality manifestations are often associated with cases of possession. And angel says, it's not just the drawings. I saw a tape of her. She was speaking a half dozen languages. One of them was Romanian. And then we see Dana looking out the windows towards the city lights as Spike walks up behind her. And Spike's, like, liking the view, are we? And he says, what say we have a nice, quiet chat about mistreating little girls, demon to demon? It changes into his vampire face. And angel says, she was yelling about being chosen. She's not a demon, West. She's a vampire slayer. And then Dana turns around to face Spike, who looks like a vampire now, and she just grins sadistically. And it's just like, oh, so good. [00:36:26] Speaker B: So good. I love that it's angel that figures this out, too, because that was his first. Like, I just. It just takes me back to when he first saw Buffy. Like, he is very well versed in Slayers because of Buffy. And I just love that scene where he's, like, watching the video and he hears what she's saying and he just looks, like, shocked. And I think the one thing about this episode that I have to criticize is that I think they. They made some continuity errors in what angel knows about what happened in Chosen. Because, like, if angel thinks that this girl is a slayer, then he would have to think that either Buffy or Faith is dead. But that's never something that comes up. But at the same time, he doesn't know about this spell that turned all the potentials into slayers. [00:37:13] Speaker A: I think it's implied that he does when Andrew comes and starts telling him about things. I think angel interrupts at one point, but then when. [00:37:22] Speaker B: Well, he. He interrupts when he's talking about the, like, slayer lore. But then when Andrew tells them about what Willow did, Angel's like, oh, and they turned a bunch of potentials into slayers. And he looks, like, almost shocked. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Yeah, but that doesn't make sense because, like, early on in the season, it was implied that angel had spoken to Buffy since. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Well, that's why I'm saying, like, that's. That's why I think you're saying some type of continuity error. Like, he should. He should be aware that this has happened, because that's true. First of all, he knew Spike died. That means he talked to Buffy. And why wouldn't Buffy tell him that the spell was done and, like, right. That there's a bunch of slayers that had been awakened. And then in this scene, when he's like, she's a vampire slayer, he's not. Like, he's not worried that either Buffy or Faith has died. So another Slayer was called because that's how the lore goes. So it's like. It's almost like he knows, but also he doesn't know. So that was just the one thing that's always bothered me about this episode. Because I feel like there's no way that angel, along with every other person in his team, doesn't know that a bunch of slayers have just been activated. [00:38:26] Speaker A: That is something that I feel like Buffy would 100% tell him because, you know, 1 million. There's going to be a possible slayer out there who goes, oh, my gosh, there's a vampire in charge of Wolfram and Hart. I'm going to go take him out. Like, angel should know. [00:38:39] Speaker B: I mean, if she's gonna tell him how the final battle went, this is like, a key piece of information. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah. She's like, I just feel like Wolverine. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Hart would absolutely know that there's just. There's just been a bunch of slayers that have been activated. That's, like, an immense amount of power that just started existing in the world. Like, Wolverine Hart would know this, and angel would know this. So that's, like, the one thing that bothers me about this episode. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair a lot. [00:39:05] Speaker B: And I'm like, come on, people. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Well, they're doing it intentionally because they're trying to hammer home the fact that angel and Buffy have not been in contact. [00:39:14] Speaker B: But they have been. They've. [00:39:16] Speaker A: But they don't want you to, because at the very end, Andrew pulls up and says, you know, I think they. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Only did it because they wanted to have that scene with Andrew where he, like, drops the lore for the angel audience that wouldn't have known what happened over in Buffy. I think that's what it is, ultimately. [00:39:32] Speaker A: I don't know, man. I. I really do think they're trying to make a separation. I don't like it, but I think that's what they're trying to do. Yeah. Anyway, we'll talk about that when we get there. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Have things to gripe about. Okay. So then Dana's, you know, facing off against Spike, and she's attacks him with the bone saw, and he's just like, you know, oh, look. Look at the big, bad demon hiding inside the helpless little girl. Just. Oh, it. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Like, can you fight somebody without yapping, bro? [00:39:59] Speaker A: Like, so true. Why don't you come out of there and let's have a proper go, mate? The interesting thing is how this could all be twisted around and kind of be a metaphor for even himself. And how the demon inside of him and stuff. And then he says. And then she ends up. Well, yeah, she ends up picking up a bit of wood as she stands. And you could tell instantly he gets a little bit more cautious because he's like, hang on. That's the one thing that could actually, like, affect me. She ends up pinning him against a post and tries to stake him again, but he catches her hand. And then she growls in Chinese. And then he says the exact same words he said in fool for love to the Chinese slayer. Sorry, love. I don't speak Chinese. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Well, you better learn today, spiky poo. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah, and I just love how they intentionally had these things popping up to show how in a lot of ways, Spike, he's. He's definitely changed in some ways, but in some ways, he hasn't. And he has a long way to go. And so then Dana and Spike continue to fight. She tosses him through a huge window. Haha. It's Spike's turn to get tossed through a window and knocks him. He hits the ground so hard, it knocks the vamp face straight off of him. Meanwhile, you know, angel pulls up in his car and he's like, what happened? And Spike's like, oh, I just thought I'd see what it's like to bounce off the pavement. Pretty much, you know what I expected. Angel says, stay out of the way. Tactical's on the way. And then he's like, you should have waited. And then Spike's like, hey, at least now I know what we're dealing with. It's a Chinese demon. Maybe a water dragon or fire or water thingies. I wrote my notes. He's so stupid. And angel just sighs and rolls his eyes and walks away. He doesn't even bother to correct him. He's just like, fine, continue on in. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Your standing so close to him. I'm like, angel, take a step back. Like, you don't need to be that close to him, please. He just picked up blood off the floor and sniffed it. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Like, yeah, we don't know what's under his fingernails. Like, walk away. You're gonna get hepatitis. [00:41:52] Speaker B: Just, like, right up on him. Like. Like, you don't need to be this close. [00:41:57] Speaker A: He, like, sighs right in his face. Wolfram and heart. So he is so done. So both angel and Spike walk off the elevator, and you can tell that angel has filled Spike in on everything. And so Spike's like, wow, a psychotic vampire slayer. Angel's like, how many times are you going to keep saying that? Spike says, I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. And Angel's like, yeah, and you let her get away. And Spike's like, like, I was trying. At least I was trying to stop her. And Angel's like, well, how did that work out? And then Spike says, at least I know the game now, don't I? I killed two slayers by own hands. Think I can handle one that's gone daft in the melon? And angel says, you're not handling anything, Spike. Okay. Wes contacted Rupert Giles. Rupert Giles? [00:42:39] Speaker B: Rupert Giles. Why would he say it like that? So formal. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah, Spike knows who Giles was. His old roomie. Okay, he knows. [00:42:46] Speaker B: Okay, but nobody has ever called Giles Rupert Giles. [00:42:49] Speaker A: Except for Gwendolyn Post, I think. [00:42:51] Speaker B: No, it was a crazy thing to call him Mr. Giles. Rupert Giles. And he sent his top man here to help. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Wonder who that is. I was like, please don't be Xander. Please don't be Xander. Please don't be Xander. But I do, like, real fast. The whole, I killed two slayers with my own hands and how it's his hands that get cut off at the very end. Like, in clear contrast to this moment where Spike is. Is not still not taking responsibility, still not realizing, just like he didn't in lies my parents told me about how your consequences have actions and that you often are harming innocent people and how. [00:43:28] Speaker B: Your actions have consequences. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Did I really say it? [00:43:31] Speaker B: Your consequences have actions. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Oh, channeling my inner Spike. [00:43:39] Speaker B: I'm like, it's okay. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Your consequences of action know your actions have consequences. But, yeah, like, that's something that Spike has never fully grasped, and that's something. He just didn't care. He didn't care at all. And so I. I just. I love that. Poetic justice right there. Anyway, we cut to the conference room, and Wesley's like, oh, hey, we were just about to look for you. And then the chair swivels around, and it's Andrew, and he's got his pipe. But he was. You know, he choked on in Storyteller. He sees Spike, and then Spike's like, oh, for the love. Andrew just runs at him, and he's, like, touching his shoulder, and he's like, it's you. It's really you. My therapist thought I was holding on to false hope, but I knew you'd come back. You're like Gandalf the White resurrected from the pit at the Balrog. And then he, like, touches his palms to Spike's face is, like, more beautiful than ever. And I was cracking up because Andrew's hair makes him look like a hobbit. Too. So it's just like, yeah, it does. It's like, oh, he's alive, Frodo. [00:44:42] Speaker B: He's alive. [00:44:42] Speaker A: And everyone is like, this is your top guy, Giles. I can't imagine Giles spending more than five minutes with Andrew. [00:44:52] Speaker B: No. Absolutely not. [00:44:55] Speaker A: How this actually worked out was Buffy got contacted or Giles got contacted. And Giles is like, we're kind of stretched really thin. We don't really have anybody to send off. And Buffy's like, just send Andrew, and we'll send 15 women with him to keep him in line. It'll be okay. He'll. He's not going to be able. Able to get into that much trouble. Angel's also there to supervise. It'll be okay. And then Andrew overheard the fact that he need to be supervised by women and by Angel. And so therefore, at the very end of the episode is like, buffy doesn't trust you. Because he's like, yeah, he's a liar. Exactly. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Lies. [00:45:30] Speaker A: So Angel's smirking at all of this. He's like, you two know each other. And then Andrew, like, steps back. He's like, yeah, I am. We saved the world together. I mean, Buffy helped, but. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Oh, okay. She just helped. Sure. [00:45:44] Speaker A: And Angels over there, like, so then everybody kind of, like, talks about what happened. And Wesley's like, all right, we're about to bring everyone up to speed on Slayer mythology. Andrew's like, I'll take it from here, Price best they hear it from an expert. And so then he goes on and has his whole monologue where he talks about the tale of Slayer of the vampires, and then goes through the whole Slayer lore, which we all know, but is just hilarious, apparently, if you. I didn't notice it, but I saw someone talking about how if you watch the episode, you can see Amy Acker in the background trying really hard not to laugh during this moment. [00:46:21] Speaker B: You can tell a bunch of them were trying hard not to laugh. Even Jay August was very funny. So funny. But okay, so this is what I mean. Like, I feel like this scene was just exposition for angel fans because this episode is about a Slayer. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Nobody just watched Buffy. [00:46:39] Speaker B: Exactly. It's for people who haven't seen Buffy, so they need to get caught up on the Slayer lore. Right. But it's like, all the characters know this, including what happened in Chosen. Like, I refuse to believe that angel and his team just weren't told about Chosen. Especially because he spoke to Buffy. [00:46:57] Speaker A: Like, there's no way Buffy would call up and be like. Like, hey, Angel, I'm okay now. [00:47:02] Speaker B: I'm Alive. Yeah. [00:47:02] Speaker A: He's like, cool. All right, good talk. [00:47:04] Speaker B: What happened? Like, they wouldn't just. You know what I mean? Like, they would actually talk. Like, it just makes no sense. [00:47:11] Speaker A: Giles got on the phone and was like, buffy will no longer be associating with any vampire, sold or uninsold. So thank you. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Get the away from me, Giles. You're crap. [00:47:27] Speaker A: So personally offended. [00:47:30] Speaker B: I am offended. Okay. [00:47:34] Speaker A: Understandable. [00:47:34] Speaker B: I've held this grudge about this particular scene in this episode for 15 years. I can tell. [00:47:41] Speaker A: I can tell. [00:47:43] Speaker B: It's like when Cordelia started fighting when she didn't have her memories. It's that type of mad, actually. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. [00:47:50] Speaker B: Just. Shit. That don't make any sense. [00:47:52] Speaker A: It really does. I. You're right. [00:47:54] Speaker B: I just can't with it. [00:47:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:56] Speaker B: I can't with this. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Given what we know of Buffy and Angel and how, like, you know, or. [00:48:01] Speaker B: Just, like, common sense, after he found. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Out that she was back alive. Okay. [00:48:09] Speaker B: Like, just two humans talking to each other. Like, why would she not tell him? [00:48:13] Speaker A: Two powerful beings that directly. Everything they do directly impacts each other. And this most of all. Yeah. It changes literally the entire trajectory of many people's lives. So, yeah, he should absolutely know. But. [00:48:27] Speaker B: And he does. [00:48:28] Speaker A: And he does. This is him just being like, oh, okay. For Andrew's benefit. It's for Andrew's benefit. [00:48:34] Speaker B: And he would tell Wesley real quick. It would be like, the quickest gossip session, like, ever. He would get off the phone above you, be like, oh, my God, Wesley, guess what happened? Because Wesley was a Watcher. [00:48:44] Speaker A: He'd be like, guess what? They need more Watchers. [00:48:47] Speaker B: And then Wesley would be like, this is amazing. Like, he kind of does right here. But, like, this, in my mind, would have already happened six months ago when all this happened. [00:49:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, they know that the Watchers Council completely blew up because we had lineage where his dad was telling him all about that. So if they know about that, then, yeah, this ain't making sense. Not at all. [00:49:14] Speaker B: No. [00:49:15] Speaker A: All right. So then Andrew tells them about how Giles and some Sunnydale alums have been tracking down the recently Chosen, guiding them, training them. And he says, but this Dana girl, she is an anomaly that no one could have foreseen. Torture, traumatized, driven insane by Yoda knows who. And then angel says, then the dreams of demons and superpowers she's always had suddenly become real. And Wesley says the dreams of slayers are usually just that, dreams. But Dana's mental instability may be making them seem more real. Andrew's like, my hypothesis exactly, Price. And he pulls out a notebook. He goes, I see Mr. Giles may have been wrong about you. And then Wesley just glares at him while he, like, writes in his notebook. And then Spike's like, oh, that's why she was talking to me in Chinese. Because she thought I was the Slayer I took out back in the Boxer Rebellion. And everyone's like, wow, Spike, thank you so much for catching up with the conversation. [00:50:04] Speaker B: And Angel's like, you mean the one you murdered? [00:50:06] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Yes. Let's call back it. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Because in fool for Love, angel already had his soul during that. And remember, in Full for Love. Or it was. It would be in Darla, where Angel looks, like, very angry that angel. That Spike killed a slayer. [00:50:24] Speaker A: You think it's very. Jealousy worried. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Yeah. But it's not. It's because he has a soul. [00:50:29] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:50:29] Speaker B: And I love that this. He brings it up here. [00:50:32] Speaker A: And then Spike's like, well, I didn't have a soul back then, did I? And angel says, right, because having one now is making such a difference. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Oh, burn. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Thank you. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Right? And that's what I want to scream. From the mountaintops to people in season seven of Buffy and the first half of angel season five. What is Spike doing with his soul? Absolutely nothing. [00:50:55] Speaker B: Nothing, Nothing. [00:50:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, look at you singing. I'm rubbing off on you. All the repression of everything. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Yeah, I have nothing. Nothing, nothing. [00:51:13] Speaker B: But he's not. [00:51:14] Speaker A: He's doing blessedly nothing. Sitting on his butt, prowling around, saying that he's some hero while calling women cows in alleyways. Like, yeah, what a prince. [00:51:24] Speaker B: He's such a prince. [00:51:26] Speaker A: And then, yeah, peroxide Prince, my favorite new name for him. But he's strutting around. I'm a hero of the people. And it's like, bro, you don't know what it means to help the helpless. Like, in order to do so, you have to remember what it was like to be helpless yourself. And you also have to realize all the people that you have made helpless and have hurt. You know, like, there's none of that anyway. So then, you know, decides to, you know, dig back at him and is like, oh, you guys just keep talking, talking. Anybody needs me, I'll be out doing his job. So then he walks out, and then angel follows him out into the lobby, and he says, you think this is a joke? And Spike says, only if the punchline. And angel says, look, we're the last two people that should be confronting her. She's a slayer. She has every reason to hate us. And she's unstable. In her mind, there probably aren't any good vampires. Vampires. And then he's like, vampires. She exists for one reason. To destroy creatures like us. And I love this bit of self reflection. And then Spike says, dance of death, eternal struggle. Right, Got it. It's the same words he used to describe his altercation with Nikki Wood when he was talking with Buffy and Fool for love. Like, this is what it boils down to. Him. It's just a dance. It's choreo choreographed. It's just like Andrew's stories and scripts back in Storyteller. Like, you know, Buffy's song. And once more with feeling. This idea that, like, you know, it's just something that you do that's scripted out. You don't have to take any choice in your own life. And, like, that's Spike's Persona. It's his costume that he's put on to hide his insecurities and inferiorities. Because Spike doesn't want to face who he really is. And a big part of that is because of the shame that consumed him in season seven, which debilitated him. But he needs to find balance in order to move on. But, yeah, I just. I find this so interesting. And then Angel's like, well, you will. And you will get everything when she's staking you in the heart. And Spike says, what do you want me to do? Go all boohoo? Who she got tortured and driven out of her gourd. Not like, we haven't done this back in the day. And there's such a lack of compassion and empathy for Dana and remorse, like, for anything that he's done in the past. [00:53:38] Speaker B: And that's why it's interesting, because Dana is not one of his victims, and he can't even bring himself to feel sorry for her. [00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:47] Speaker B: So it's like. Like, what's the problem? Like, why? Why? Why can he not feel sorry for her? And that's the thing. I feel like this is just, like, a core trait of, like, Spikes. He just doesn't really care about anybody, so how is he supposed to care about the people that he murdered? You know? Like, yeah, And I think eventually he does, but he will. [00:54:09] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think it's so interesting how they have Andrew in this episode. And I know a lot of people have mixed feelings about Andrew, and I've heard a lot of people be like, oh, my gosh, why is Andrew in this episode? But I do think there is a purpose that he serves, because as we saw in Storyteller, and a lot of his arc in season seven was Andrew liked to create stories and kind of distort reality to avoid the actual reality of his past sins and him murdering Jonathan. And so, so true, like, and so him coming and him actually in the. By the end of this episode, Andrew proves that he's actually making something with his life and he's moving forward because he faced the realities of that. He had empathy for Jonathan, his murder victim. Buffy's the one that revealed that to him and that started his journey. And he's like, hey, I guess I do deserve death. I deserve to die because of what I've done. And so he's able to move on and do big things in his life. And at the end, him coming to angel and Spike and being like, all right, we're going to take her now, kind of double crossing them. It shows that Andrew's moved past a lot of those things and Spike hasn't, which is really interesting because Andrew wanted to be like Spike for so long. Like, he dressed just like him. He has the jacket. So I don't know. I find Andrew very interesting in this episode. Okay, so then Spike says, or angel says, it's something I'm still paying for. In response to Spike being like, you know, you know, should I, you know, be all boohoo because she got tortured? And Spike says, and you should let it go, mate, if it's starting to make you look old. And okay, this is what I scream from my keyboard. To all the people that make the argument of Spike's ability to just move past the sins of his past and not let them weigh him down is why he's so much healthier than angel crowd. Like, maybe a lot of people believe that and maybe he will eventually. Yeah, Spike again. Spike has had so many outside motivators. And so, so it's so, like, reassuring and, like, pleasant to see him being motivated by something else at the end of this episode other than Buffy. And that's the purpose of Dana, is literally to break that cycle and stuff. But also, okay, this is a gripe I have too. Like, Spike keeps coming from this mindset that he can't be held accountable for anything that he did before he got his soul, while angel can't separate angel from Angelus and therefore feels the weight of everything he's done. The problem is Spike, in the same breath, is saying that he. He, like, wants to have it both ways. He's saying that he can't be accountable for his presale actions. But Then he's also trying to say that he's better than angel because he went to go get a soul. And you can't take all the good and dismiss the bad. You can't say your motivations were good. But then you also can't be held like, before you had a soul. But then you also can't be held responsible and accountable for the things that you did bad before the soul. Like, you can't. You can't pick and choose. And I see Spike doing that both here and in destiny, and so just makes me. Very true. All right, so then Andrew has been standing there the entire time, sipping his juice box and watching everything and probably writing it down to send it to Giles. He's like, slurping little ASMR for you guys. Then, back at the docks, Dana's walking around and then has another flash flashback of a dark room. A man has stored something in an old air vent. He removes the grill and takes out a box as a young Dana cries and screams in terror. And it, like, the whole memory visibly upsets Dana. And so she's kind of, like, having a bit of a panic attack. And then the man that is in, like, by the dock sees her and approaches her. Of course he's gonna die. Back in the conference room, angel and the gang are still going over plans. Angel's like, maybe Spike was right. Maybe we should just go out there and find her. And then Fred's like, then do what? Kill her? What's happening isn't her fault. And Gun's like, well, you know, she's basically crazy, so she can't be held accountable for what's happening. So then Angel's like, all right, let's do a sweep. About 60 blocks. We need to narrow it down. Witnesses are saying she's looking for something. Let's try and find what that is. Lauren's like, hey, let's go back to the home that she was abducted from. He says, houses have long memories. You just got to know how to get him to talk. And Angel's like, all right, fine, but let's get Andrew in on this, see if he knows anything. And that's when they realize that Andrew is missing. Cut to the docks now. And Spikes, being stalked by Andrew, pulls him out and is like, well, I guess I'll wedgie you unconscious and be done with it. And Andrew's like, bravo. I see your senses seem to be as well honed as your Vigo mortise and pectorals. Another Lord of the Rings reference, which, to be fair, Viggo Mortensen is pretty hot. So Spike's like, what are you doing out here? And Andrew's like, you know, this is where the action is, bro. I'm on the main streets. Can you dig it? And so then they talk a lot about how like Andrew has been being trained by Giles, presumably to be a watcher, whatever they're calling it now. And then they end up tripping over the guy that was trying to help Dana. His body is laying there. He's been. His throat's been slit. And then Andrew just like screams. [00:59:20] Speaker B: Screams. [00:59:21] Speaker A: Just screams. So then now we're at Dana's house and we have angel and Lauren, the lovely couple, taking a tour through this middle sized suburban house. The realtor is like hardwood floors and they have like the psychic with them and he's like, the walls scream with the blood of the innocent. The realtor is like, I'll be in the car if you have any questions. So then the psychic talks about how he senses fear and anguish and pain. And then we get flashbacks of the mother and the father and then the baby. And then he walks into the room that would have been Dana's room, and then looks at the floor where the bed used to be and says he needed them to suffer. She doesn't know him. And we see little Dana hiding as a man approaches. The psychic says she tries to be still, invisible, but he senses her. And then the man finds Dana and the psychic says she's gone. He says that she's somewhere where it's dark, the floor is cold, the air is thick with dust, and it smells like molasses. And he says, it's a basement. And I go, oh, of course, always a basement for Spike. He's just trapped in the basement of life. [01:00:28] Speaker B: A little basement dweller. [01:00:29] Speaker A: If houses hold memories, then basements are where everyone buries the painful ones. [01:00:34] Speaker B: So damn, that was deep sleep. [01:00:40] Speaker A: Damn, look at me. [01:00:41] Speaker B: Is that why everybody's afraid of basements? I hate basements. [01:00:46] Speaker A: They're so creepy. They're really. [01:00:48] Speaker B: They're just so creepy there. It's just the act of going down into the basement, like underneath freaks me out. [01:00:54] Speaker A: It's also because it like, it's usually very like, like creaky. You can hear like the water, the heat, the water heater. Like you can hear creaking above you and stuff. Stuff. Ours isn't too bad because we have windows in our basement and you can like stand in the middle and you can see everything. But yeah, I agree, they are very weird, creepy and sinister. So then as the psychic's describing all this. Dana finds the basement that she's hanging out in. And the psychic says, this is where her pain lives. Dana looks around. She finds the air vent and removes the grill. Takes out the tools. And there is a. A syringe. And then she flashes back to her. Her captivity sees the man taking the syringe out of the box. And then you hear the captive say, or the captor say, let's try the blue one this time. As he closes in on young Dana. So the back of the docks, Andrew and Spike are still catching up. And we get a little bit of, like, info dump and some information on where our Scooby gang is. Kennedy and Willow are still together, unfortunately. Xander's in Africa, and Will and Kennedy are in Brazil. He's like, they're. They're based in Sao Paulo, but every time I see them, they're in Rio. Or they talk to them. They're in Rio. So Spike sniffs the air. Andrew asks him what blood smells like or tastes like. And Spike's like, oh, it's metallic. You ever taste a penny? And he's like, smells like that. Andrew sees a penny on the ground, just soaking. Yeah. And then he's like, sue. Or Spike says, you heard from Buffy lately? And Andrew's like, yeah, of course. She's in Rome. Don's in school there, an Italian school. And he's like, yeah, she's rounding up all the slayers in Europe and decided she liked it there, I guess. And then he puts the penny in his mouth, spits it out, and it's, like, disgusting. Thinks she needed a break from California. And then he goes, hang on. She doesn't know you're alive, does she? And then Spike says, I don't think so. I mean, I don't know. Does she? And Andrew's like, no, I would have heard about it. We would have had a conference call. And then he says, why haven't you told her? And Spike's like, you know, hello, Buffy, It's Spike. I didn't burn up like you thought. How are things? And Andrew's like, well, do you want me to ask her? Or, like, tell her? And Spike's like, no, no. [01:03:04] Speaker B: Leave her alone. [01:03:05] Speaker A: I'll take care of it. And we're like. They don't explicitly say, at the. At least at this point, why Spike isn't telling Buffy, but I feel like they do such a good job with the writing and with James Mercer's acting of. Like, there's a lot of like. Like, he's like, Afraid that he's not gonna be able to live up to it. But I. I think low key. He knows he's not doing anything with his life, and he knows he's gonna go up to her and have to be like, hey, so, got a job. [01:03:32] Speaker B: Finally. Maybe he finally has some sense and realizes that she's finally able to live her life freely and to actually be happy. And he shouldn't drag her down and she's in Rome enjoying her life. Like, just leave her alone. Although the thing is, I feel like Buffy would want to know if Spike was alive. Like, she would want to know if we're being honest, you know? And I think she would be angry if he was alive and she didn't know and then she found out. So I think out of respect for her, he should tell her. But he should also make it very clear that he's not expecting anything from her. Which is clearly something Spike struggles with when it comes to Buffy. [01:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah, and in a perfect world to be so nice if Spike was like, no, I'm not going to go after Buffy because I have things I need to figure out on my own and I need to work through some things. But I don't think that's actually where he's at at this point. But. So then they see that Dana. Or like, we pan up, they don't see, but we see that Dana's watching them from nearby rooftop. I love how she's, you know, the hunter. Now we've had Spike even be on rooftops watching angel and stuff. And so then we cut back to Wolfram and Hart. Angel and Lauren are getting out of the elevator and they're kind of filling gun up on everything. And angel says, I want to find the guy who killed Dana's family. His name, his past, his whereabouts, everything. Gun's like, well, the police never caught him. Angel's like, yeah, well, we're not the police. Search her files. And then he tells Lauren he wants to know where he took her. He says, the psychic narrowed it down to a basement that smells like molasses. This. He's like, look, we can do better. Start cracking the whip. Lauren's like, you got it, chief. And then we see him, like, go off screen. He's like, daddy, we're gonna need a whip. [01:05:20] Speaker B: I love it. [01:05:21] Speaker A: I love Lauren. So then at the docks, Andrew is. Oh, yeah, Andrew's still like, chit chatting. And then Spike stops walking and he says he smells blood. And he's like, it smells different. Andrew's like. Like nickels. So they go around in the alleyway, and they find a dead end where there's blood streaks on the alley wall. And we realize that Dana is baiting them. So she ends up fighting them and knocking Andrew and Spike down and then running past them. And, you know, Andrew's unconscious, and Spike races after her, and she clearly baits him into the basement. And he is like, all right, there's no getting away. Got your scent locked now? No, it's. I, like, could track you for miles. And then Dana, kind of pacing, says, no escaping. He says, that's right. No escaping. He's like, I don't want to have to hurt you. And she says, it doesn't hurt if you hold still. Oh, this just, like, the way he thinks she's talking to him, but she's, like, talking to herself and trying to, like, deal with her fear at the same time. Like, there's just so much like about her that this is very compelling. It's dark and it's sad, and it's so hard not to just, like, have so much, much pity for her and compassion, you know? She says, heart and head. Have to get home. Doesn't hurt if you hold still. So sad. And then Spike says, you're a real sack of hammers, aren't you? Don't worry. I used to date a girl who wasn't all there. So insensitive. And then Dana says, heart and head. Stab the heart, cut off the head. He's like, oh, that's slayer talk, isn't it? And she says, keep cutting till you see dust. And then Spike's like, let me vamp. Splain to you what your mission is. You got vision. And he's like, vampire slayer memories kicking around. Which is really tough because it sounds like you're past midnight in the crazy clock. Anyway, Dana says, please don't. I have to get home to my son, to Robin. And then Spike's like, oh, hang on. You're talking about Nikki, the Slayer eye off. And then he's like, oh, yeah, you probably don't want to think about that. Okay, this proves that Spike was an unreliable narrator in fool for Love, about how he was presenting himself. And even in lies my parents told me, because he told Robin Wood that his mom didn't really love him. And he told Buffy that the slayers, like, just died defiantly. And the way he presented Nikki staring at him when he snapped her neck, she didn't say a word. She didn't say anything. And he said they had a death wish. They wanted to die. If she was begging for her life. She didn't have a death wish. [01:07:52] Speaker B: No. They had things to live for. It was shown that they both had things to live for. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. She was begging for her life, for her son, which means that she loved her son. [01:08:01] Speaker B: And then the Chinese slayer said, like, tell my mother I'm sorry. [01:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just. It's crazy. So anyway, Dana's like, you're William the Bloody. And he's like, oh, hang on. No, no, no, no. He's like, that's not gonna lead anywhere good. You want to focus on what's real. And it's so interesting. In season seven of Buffy, we're talking a lot about the idea of what is real. In lessons, Buffy said multiple times to dawn about, it's always real. It's. It's real. It's always real. And one of the themes of that season is the power dynamic imbalance. And I really love how this right now is kind of like a little bit of a callback to that. With the power dynamic is. Is. Is real. There is actual pain that you cause these women, these innocence. And the bad things that you did is real. And you have to face up to that. And that's something that, like, with Andrew creating stories and even with Spike in conversations with dead people. Not conversation. Yeah. Lies. My parents told me. Like, there's these people that are creating these Personas and these fake realities because they don't want to face up to what is real. [01:09:03] Speaker B: So, like, with Spike, I just feel like even. Just everything we've seen about Spike, and I've seen people say a lot that Spike just, like, understands Slayer. I've even seen people say that Spike is Slayer coded, which is insane to me. Just insane. And the reason for that is that Spike actually doesn't understand Slayers whatsoever because he sees them as something that has to be conquered. Like, it's a power move for him, and it always has been. And he projects his views onto them, which isn't the reality. And it's shown, like, repeatedly over and over and over again. And I love that, like, in this episode, it's once again shown. But, like, yeah, the whole thing about, like, reality and, like, what's real and what's not. And I feel like, like, a lot of what Spike thinks he knows is just untrue. [01:09:52] Speaker A: Yep. Spike sees similarities between him and Buffy and then automatically assumes that they come from the same place and it's because of the same thing. And it's like, that's not necessarily true. Yes, Buffy has darkness in her, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the reason why she's doing things is coming from the same source. You know? Like, it's just. It's very. And that's. That makes it really frustrating when you're watching seasons five, six, and seven, and, like, you see it one way. And there's so many people that, like, take everything that Spike says at face value. [01:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And don't, like, the whole death wish thing. It's, like, from Spike's perspective. Slayers have a death wish because they have a darkness inside of them. But you could look at it from, like, the slayer's perspective, where it's like. Like she's never free until she dies sort of thing. [01:10:44] Speaker A: So, yeah, different kind of death wish. Not in a way meaning. [01:10:48] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. [01:10:50] Speaker A: Right. Again, so similar symptoms, but the source is different, you know? Yeah, totally. Okay. So then Dana ends up knocking him to the ground, ends up putting the needle in his neck, and she says, yellow makes you weak. Not weak anymore. And then she punches him repeatedly. And. And he says, all right, now you've made me mad. She says, don't cry. They can't hear you. Pulls his leather jacket off of him. That is so important. Symbolically. So important is she's stripping him of the costume, of the Persona that he's created and revealing what is real, what is underneath all of that. Oh, it's so good. So then Dana flashes back to when she was young, and her captor, which we see a Spike, at least in her mind, is carrying her across the room and her in his arms. And then she deposits Spike at the base of some pipes. Flashes back to Spike chaining her to those very same pipes and screaming, no. And stop. And then Dana says, daddy's gone. He can't hear you. And then Spike's still slurring his words. And then Dana grabs more syringes and says, piece by piece, yellow makes you weak. Brown makes you sleepy. And then injects Spike again and says, can't hurt me anymore. And then Spike goes completely unconscious. And then in the conference room, guns, looking at a map and says, okay, we found the. The body here. And Angel's like, okay, we need to set up aerial surveillance. And he's like, what are we looking for? And they're, like, going back and forth. And then Fred has an idea, and she goes, whiskey. When you're cooking up whiskey, it smells like molasses. And so Angel's like, okay, let's look for a distillery. Andrew walks in the room, like, all beaten and bloody and says, we were Attacked. And I think Dana has Spike. So, cut to the basement. Spike is, you know, fading into consciousness, and he's looking around and he's like, what did you do? Dana says, stay quiet. And Spike says, you're homicidal. What did you do to me? And then Dana's holding the bone saw and says, losing all your pieces. Not weak. Can't touch me anymore. Oh, it's like, heartbreaking. [01:12:46] Speaker B: Oh, God. [01:12:47] Speaker A: And then he lifts up his arms and his hands are gone. [01:12:52] Speaker B: Oh, God. So graphic. But so good. [01:12:54] Speaker A: Good. [01:12:55] Speaker B: So good. Yeah. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. This poor. This poor girl. So then Spike's like, oh, God, I can't feel my. And then Dana punches him in the face. Says, no more Daddy, no more Mommy, no more hands. Can't touch me ever again. Spike says, I never touched you. He says, stop. You got it wrong. Your brain's all jumbled. I never hurt you. It wasn't me. I've done my share of bad, but you're not one of them. It's someone else. And Dana stares at him. She flashes back to her captor carrying her across the room. The captor looks like. Like Spike at first. But then she flashes to another memory. And then it's a different person, a different man. Spike says, you've got me confused with another man. And then she keeps doing flashes and spikes as your visions are mixing with your real memories. He says, got them stuffed in your head from other slayers and other places. And then Dana's like, well, you killed her, referring to the Chinese slayer. And Spike says, sadly, yes, but. And Dana says, you killed them both. And then Spike whispers, that and worse, but I was never here. And Dana hits him again and says, doesn't matter. Head and heart, keep cutting till you see dust. And then she grabs her bone saw. But then angel comes and picks her up and throws her across the room. He says, dana, look, I'm here to help you. The man who tried to hurt you, his name is Walter Kindle. He tried to rob a liquor store five years ago, and the police shot him. He's dead, Dana. And then he says, he can't hurt you anymore. And Dana says, can't hurt me. Not weak anymore. And I love the Continue. Not weak anymore. Because what's the thing that Buffy said to all the potentials when she was offering them the chance to become the Slayer? Is. Are you ready to be strong? And so I like that. That there's, like, a little bit of a correlation there. So angel says, that's right. And Dana says, strong slayer she charges Angel. They fight. And I just love how they up the stakes anytime it's a vampire fighting a slayer. They get, like, extra epic when it comes to all the stunts. So finally, angel ends up grabbing her on the neck from behind, turns her to face the door and says, now. And then Wesley and a bunch of guys train, shank Dana in the chest, and she passes out. And then angel yells for a med team to get Spike's arms or his hands and get Spike out. And now we're on the docks. Fred's helping load the parent or having the paramedics wheel Spike onto a gurney into the ambulance. Says, get it prepped, put surgical on standby. We'll be there in 10 minutes. And then she says, we've got his hands. And then angel and Wesley escort Dana's gurney out of the base basement. And Angel's like, chain her up. I want armed guards riding with her in the back. And then Andrew shows up and says, that's all right, boys. I'll take it from here. He says, totally appreciate. Appreciate your help. Never could have found her without you, but you've got enough problems of your own to worry about. And Angel's like, get out of the way, Andrew. And Andrew steps in his path and says, she's a slayer. That means she's ours. And angel says, yeah, sorry, not how it works. And then tells the guards to load her up. And then Andrew kind of steps further in his face and says, no, I don't think you heard me, Angel. And then all of a sudden, sudden we see a group of women, like, 15 or so women, just, like, appear from all around. And Andrew says, think we're just going to let you take her back to your evil stronghold? Well, as they say in Mexico, no, we're not gonna let you. And then angel says, she's psychotic, and I'm not turning her over to you. And Andrew says, you don't have a choice. Check the view screen. I've got 12 vampire slayers behind me, and not one of them has ever dated you. Laughs she's coming with us one way or another. And then angel says, you're out of your league. I'll just clear this with Buffy. And Andrew says, where do you think my orders came from? News lies. Nobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram and Hart. Don't fool yourself. We're not on the same side. Thank you for your help, but we got it. All right. Leia. Would Buffy do this without contacting angel herself or coming to see him? [01:16:46] Speaker B: No. I just. I refuse to believe that she. She would do this. That she would even think, like. I feel like she would at least call him to be like, what the hell are you doing? [01:16:59] Speaker A: Right. [01:17:00] Speaker B: If she was genuinely worried, I think she would call him 1 million percent. And I think that Andrew is using this. This. Because if you'll notice throughout the episode, Andrew is watching everybody. Like, he's watching angel, he's watching Spike, he's watching them together. And I think he uses this as a way to, like, hit angel where it hurts so that he can get his way. And, like, I do agree with Andrew that the Slayer should, like, Dana should go with the Slayers. And I think this. That goes hand in hand with the fact that like. Like, Buffy and Willow made the decision to make a bunch of girls into slayers. And there's consequences to that that are bad. And they're the ones, like, basically, you have to clean up the mess you made. That's their responsibility to deal with Dana 1 million percent. Not that I don't think that angel would have also dealt with her, like, the same way that Buffy would have, but I understand why they need her with them to take care of it. I just. Like, in my head, I just refuse to believe that Buffy would just. After everything that her and angel have been through together, like, everything you're telling me that this is the thing that makes her not trust him anymore. Like, I just. I can't believe it. Especially where Buffy is at the end of her show and, like, the growth that she had gone through and, like, decisions that she had made, like, she would give him grace, I think, or at least ask him about it first. And, you know, I find it interesting that Andrew talks a lot about, oh, Mr. Giles. Mr. Giles this, Mr. Giles that. So, like, maybe this is Giles talking. Maybe it's Andrew who just took the initiative and decided. Because we know Andrew can be manipulative. Like, we know this. Right? So. So I just. [01:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I just. [01:18:52] Speaker B: Oh, I just can't. Like, I can't believe that this is Buffy. And I know we'll probably talk about this in the next episode, but, like, the next episode was supposed to be an episode where Sarah Michelle Geller was gonna appear. And I think this was setting that up. Like, this was setting up Buffy coming to LA and having that conversation that we're talking about right now with angel where she's like, what are you doing? Right. Like, this is the perfect setup for that. And I hate that it never, like, materializes, because I truly don't believe. [01:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Really bad. Yeah, totally. It's so funny because critically touched like they pretty much side a lot with Spike in this episode. But they had one instance that I really agreed with when they were talking about this scene in particular. And they said, I know Buffy took a much more no nonsense approach to her slaying duties and to fighting the good fight over the course course of season seven. She talks about lies my parents. Or the writer talks about lies my parents told me. But they said. But now Buffy is off in Europe and there's no big Europe and there's no big bad for her to defeat at the moment. Remember that only a few months back in Chosen, she and angel had a talk with one another in which she displayed confidence in him. Confidence that he could act as a second front should she fail at stopping the first plans. Imagine her now in Europe hearing the news that her former boyfriend has decided to start running an evil law firm. What would her reaction be? Buffy shares a personal connection with Angel. She loved him like she loved no other man before or since. Yet we're meant to believe that her reaction to such news is as one sided as don't trust him. Just get the Slayer. Use force if you have to. We're talking about the girl who gave Spike countless chances to redeem himself despite many opportunities she could have taken to drive a stake through his heart. The girl who re accepted Willow as a friend after she attempted to destroy the world. The woman who, while you get the picture, like the girl who literally fed. [01:20:44] Speaker B: Herself to angel to save his life, trusted him enough not to kill her in a state of complete hallucination because she couldn't bear the thought of him dying. Okay. [01:20:55] Speaker A: Right. And I will just. I will always be upset that the next episode didn't have Buffy in it. Because I think it would have just been amazing and absolutely perfect. But at the end of the day. [01:21:06] Speaker B: It'S perfectly set up at the end of this episode like it really is. You can tell that there's setting up like a segue into Buffy appearing in the next episode is like the perfect follow up to the end of this episode. [01:21:19] Speaker A: Yep. And it's also kind of the thing that is meant to kick start the rest of the season for angel and getting him back in the right head space and stuff too. But yeah, I just. I think I fall more on the side of this is like you were saying, like this is Giles feeding information to Andrew because of how Giles ended at the end of season seven. And we know that Giles isn't particularly like Angel. Yeah. [01:21:45] Speaker B: So or it could just be Andrew. It could literally just be Andrew knowing where to hit angel, where it hurts so that he can get his way. [01:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So then they take off and Wesley's like, that's it? You're just going to let him take her? And angel says, she's one of theirs. They can handle it. Beside you. [01:22:02] Speaker B: He man absolutely heartbroken by the way. He looks devastated. Like, he just looks like. Like, whoa. Like I can. I could see his, like, stomach drop. [01:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah. But then we have this scene. This is a good scene. So we're in the hospital room and Spike's in the hospital bed. And his arms are bandaged, but they're now reattached. And angel appears and Spike goes, come to tap dance on the patient. Halfway, Doc. I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off. And angel says, a lot of pain, Spike. Spike says, more than I'd like, but not as much as you would. Just what I deserve. Angel says, I didn't say that. And Spike says, no, I did the last thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain because hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not saying you're right because I'm physically incapable of saying that. But for a demon, I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victim. And to Angel's credit. So first of all, to Spike's credit, the fact that he is being vulnerable with angel and that he's being self reflective right here. This is the Spike that I really enjoy. I really enjoy. And then to Angel's credit, he doesn't. He doesn't take the vulnerability and use it to give an even lower blow to Spike. He takes it to be self reflective and offer a little bit of vulnerability himself and says, I couldn't take my eyes off of them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would have considered Dana a masterpiece. Just like Drusilla. And Spike says, what happens to her? And angel says, I don't know. Andrew and the slayers took her. Didn't trust us to help her. And Spike's like, Andrew double crossed us. That's a good move. Hope for the little ponciet. Though the tinkling in my forearms tells me she's too far gone to help. Help she's one of us now. She's a monster. And angel says she's an innocent victim. And Spike says, so were we, once upon a time. And angel just kind of sits there and reflects and goes, once upon a time. That's so good. [01:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah, the scene is so, so good. And like I said in the beginning, it's this conversation between the two of them tells us everything we need to know about how these guys act, how they move through life, the way that they view the world. Like, the fact that angel was in it for the evil and for like he. He couldn't take his eyes off the victims. That's why he feels so much guilt, because that's the thing that's, like, in his head. That's the thing that he fixates on. [01:24:45] Speaker A: That's why the curse is so effective for him too. [01:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah, the curse is exactly. It's so effective for Angels specifically because. And also on top of the fact that he has like a photogenic memory, like, just imagine how much like he's probably reliving all of these things in his head. [01:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:04] Speaker B: Because that's, that's the most vivid thing that he remembers as like a vampire. Right. And then that's that. That causes him to, like, be more self reflective, to think about his. Like, in order for you to feel guilt, you have to think about your victim. And then Spike doesn't think about his victims, therefore he doesn't feel the need to feel guilty. [01:25:24] Speaker A: Right. [01:25:25] Speaker B: And it makes complete sense because his approach to vampirism is it's a party and the fun of it all and the rush and all this stuff. So it makes complete sense that, like, throughout the seventh season, he doesn't really think about his victims. Really. Yeah, you know, like, it just informs everything that they do. And I just think it's so interesting. And I like that at the very end. And I actually thought of this when you were talking about the scene, because when I was watching the episode, I was like, why? Why is it important that Dana sees in her flashbacks that Spike is the guy that hurt her? But really it's not. And it's the same type of thing. It's a completely different guy. But at the end of the day, Dana's a victim just like every other victim of every other person that's ever committed a crime. So, like, at the end of the day, the victims are all the same, even though the crime is different and the person who committed the crime is different, but the outcome, the pain that they caused is the same for everybody. And that's what matters. Ultimately, that's where they kind of meet in the middle. And Dana's abuser is the same. He's not going to be the same type of evil as angel or Spike, but, you know. [01:26:38] Speaker A: Well, and that's what it took for Spike to recognize how awful it is, the things that he was doing, because he saw the. The outcome. He saw a victim that he had to come face to face with and how damaged she is and how she was confusing him. The fact that she was able to confuse him for the person that created her and, like, made her that way. It cast a whole new light on him when he realized, oh, my gosh, there's probably people. I mean, yeah, there probably are people out there just like Dana who are the way that they are because of the things that I've done. And so it just. It. It was a moment of looking in a mirror for him and kind of truly seeing the damage of what he's caused. And. Yeah. And this moment of, like, how that they were innocent victims once upon a time and how there's a whole thing to be said here about how, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, well, William knew what? William, like, consented to becoming a vampire. And I don't. I don't. I've never actually thought that he had. He did. Because there's no possible way that William knew what he was signing up for. He just wanted change in freedom. Same with angel and Darla. He says, I want to see the world. Like, show me the world. Neither of these men knew what they were signing up for. And they were used by the women. And then, you know, those women were used by the people before them and said no one truly, truly knew. And so I think that. Except maybe, I guess Darla, because the master. [01:28:06] Speaker B: Darla. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. For sure. [01:28:10] Speaker A: But, you know, Drusilla, prime victim and stuff. And so I think it's just. It's so interesting to watch these men who. We've seen their origin stories and how they didn't want this life, but now they still have to take responsibility for what has happened. And they are not innocent victims anymore. Yeah. And it's like the cycle goes round and round, right. [01:28:34] Speaker B: But they're trying to break the cycle. [01:28:35] Speaker A: Right. [01:28:36] Speaker B: And that's what's. That's what they can do now that they have souls, is they can help people who are helpless and who are victims instead of causing harm. And I think Spike finally gets that here. [01:28:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love that. I love. Yeah, finally. But I love that because again, I think Spike has the potential to be a really interesting and compelling character. And I think seeing him actually become self reflective without losing the Spikeness of him that, like, we love to hate and we love to make fun of. Sure, for me is very interesting. And I like what it says about angel and angel says about Spike, too. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And like, so ironic. But this Spike, I do feel sympathy for him. [01:29:22] Speaker A: Totally. [01:29:23] Speaker B: Like, this is the Spike where I can look at him and be like, yeah, like, this is rough. This is really fucking rough. And I feel sorry for you. Not the Spike that's getting rejected by women and throwing a tantrum. Like, I don't feel sorry for that Spike, not for a single second or, like crying or whatever. Like, I don't care. I don't care about any of that. Like, this is the Spike where I look at him and I'm like, you are like, worthy of. Of trying to be better. Like you. You deserve to, like, become somebody that's a better person because you realize the weight of everything you did. Like, I. Yeah, this is the Spike that I sympathize with for sure. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Yep, totally, man. Good episode. Good, good episode. All right, well, listeners, let us know your thoughts. Do you guys think that Andrew was lying about Buffy saying things? Do you guys think it was Giles behind it all? What do you guys think of Spike's revelation in this episode? What do you think this episode tells us about angel and Spike? Do you guys think that this is a regression of Spike's character? Or do you see this as his arc progressing forward? Yeah, a lot of people that I've talked to that feel similarly to us really, really love this episode as the turning point for Spike. So. So let us know your thoughts and yeah, we will talk to you guys next time. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram @ InvestigatingAngel podcast and you can email us@ InvestigatingAngelpodcastmail.com.

S5. Ep11. Damage

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

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