Series Wrap Up

Series Wrap Up
Investigating Angel
Series Wrap Up

Jul 09 2025 | 01:14:28

/
Episode • July 09, 2025 • 01:14:28

Hosted By

Sarah Watson Lea Nasrallah

Show Notes

Sarah and Lea answer listener questions, discuss their thoughts on season five and the series as a whole, and reflect on their podcast journey. 

View Full Transcript

Episode Transcript

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Investigating angel, an Angel Rewatch. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Podcast, where we analyze each episode of angel, the series with no spoilers. We are your hosts, Leia and Sarah. [00:00:11] Speaker A: And if you love angel, this is the podcast for you. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Hey, guys. Welcome back to Investigating Angel. Today, we are talking about Olive angel also. Yeah, I was like, today, what are. What aren't we talking about, Guys, that is the real question. Today we are talking about our overall thoughts of season five. We're talking about the series, like, an overview, talking about our time podcasting the series. We're answering your questions. We are reading out your thoughts. Yeah. Again, I say, what are not we talking about? Because we're talking about everything. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Everything. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Everything. Yeah, but. And this is also the last episode of Investigating Angel. Isn't that crazy? [00:01:14] Speaker B: I know. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Bittersweet. [00:01:16] Speaker B: It's crazy. It is bittersweet. [00:01:18] Speaker A: It's almost exactly three years ago that we started. I think we released, like, last week, our first episode ever, three years ago, which is just wild that we're ending. [00:01:27] Speaker B: And then we're done. This will be released on July 10th. So that's in, like, two weeks from when we're recording this. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. I think it's a little longer than that. I don't know. Yeah. You know better than I do, but, yeah. Guys, here we are. End of the road. How did we get here? Didn't we just start? No. It feels like forever ago. What am I saying? [00:01:47] Speaker B: Seriously. [00:01:48] Speaker A: How are we feeling, Leia? [00:01:51] Speaker B: Feeling good? I don't know. It's. [00:01:55] Speaker A: It's a weird sensation, isn't it? [00:01:57] Speaker B: It's weird. Yeah. It's weird because, like, not going to lie, I'm excited to be wrapping this up because I feel like it's been. It's been, like, three and a half years that we've been doing this, but at the same time, I know I'm going to miss, like, sitting down every week and just talking to you and, you know, raging or, like, squeezing or whatever, but crying. Or crying. Yeah, we were crying last week, but, I mean, we'll be back. We'll do this again. But. Yeah. Last episode of the Buffyverse. [00:02:30] Speaker A: I know. [00:02:31] Speaker B: I don't know. It's always bittersweet when you finish, like, watching, you know, because you're watching Buffy, too, and I. I haven't been watching Buffy, but it's always just bittersweet when it's done, because you almost want more. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Yeah, you want more. But then you're also like, this is a good time to end. Yeah. It's a little bizarre for me because in real time. Like, we're still releasing season seven episodes of Buffy, and then obviously we're still in season five of angel releasing. But by the time this episode airs, I'm still gonna have about a solid month left of Buffy, and I've already wrapped up everything over there. I'm at this point I'm just editing, but it's weird having finished the finale of Chosen, and you guys are gonna hear this one first and then you'll hear that one, but. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Oh, true. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Which was weird when I was recording it and everything because I was like, this is bit little a last time people are going to hear me talk, like, ever, ever, like on here. And so it was like a kind of weird sort of finality. But then I still had to go in over here and talk about stuff. So that was. That's been kind of bizarre. But yeah, this feels like. This feels like closure and kind of being like, wow, this is my last episode recording for a long time. Like, I don't have any guest recordings coming up. I have nothing. Like, this is the last one. That's. That's bizarre. [00:03:41] Speaker B: But have a nice summer. Sarah. [00:03:43] Speaker A: That's what it feels like. It also feels applicable that like, or like, appropriate because we're in June, so it's like, okay, summer. I just know we're gon get to like, September and I'm just going to start getting itchy again. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Be like, okay, like, I feel like. [00:03:54] Speaker A: I need to be doing the podcast. [00:03:55] Speaker B: But you know, we'll see. [00:03:56] Speaker A: We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Okay, so you guys sent in a lot of stuff, but before we jump into all of that, I feel like it's pretty easy to kind of let season five get lost in the shuffle because we're kind of like, ready to talk about everything. So let's talk about our thoughts of season five before we jump into that. So obviously we both enjoyed season five so much more than season four or even season three. Now, having finished it, what are your overall thoughts? Leia? [00:04:25] Speaker B: I love this season. Honestly, I just thought it was so fun to watch, like every episode I thought was really fun. And I. I know we're probably going to talk about our like, season rankings at some point. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker B: Season five is like, pretty up there for me now just because I feel like. I feel like it's consistent throughout. I love that it has such a new feel. That's one thing I loved about it and I thought was really refreshing. But I also just felt like the individual episodes were consistently really good. I Don't know if you'll agree with that particularly, but there was never an episode where I was like, I'm dreading watching this. And I just found value and enjoyment in every episode. So this was a really good season. I thought it ended so strong. Obviously there are certain things that were kind of rushed and stuff, but I've. It was so good that I was willing to overlook those things, you know, because of the behind the scenes stuff where they got canceled and stuff. But yeah, overall I really enjoyed this season, honestly. [00:05:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah. How did you feel? [00:05:31] Speaker A: No, I actually agree. I think my. Something I have. I feel like I've personally grown in with doing podcasting for both Buffy and Angel is I was really hard on early season seasons of both angel and Buffy when it came to my criteria for a good episode. And I think I was looking for something that was like, completely tight writing wise, and something I could analyze, but also like good story, good acting, all the stuff like that. And obviously there are still those episodes. But I'm learning that if an episode is enjoyable and it gives me an emotional reaction and it is entertaining, that the episode is doing its job. And that doesn't mean that it is. It doesn't mean it has to be a great, like, perfect, like, we're talking, like, hush level episode in order for it to be a good episode. And so I think I've become a little bit more like. I don't know what the right word is. I don't want to say my standard has lowered because that sounds horrible, but I think I've become a little bit more appreciative. Like, I look back at like Hero from season one, I was so hard on that. And I look back and I'm like, no, that was a good episode, you know, and so season five one, like you said, I have a lot more grace for it because of. They didn't know they were being canceled. And so like the first half of the season, I'm like, it was a little repetitive and choppy, but I'm also like, they didn't know that they were ending. They had. They thought they had all the time in the world. But I enjoyed so much. I will say, like 97% of the episodes in this season. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker A: And you know what? I had so much fun talking about characters and storylines and arcs and even like monsters of the week and hating on characters and stuff like that, but in a fun way. Like the fun hating on characters. Not in like season three and four, where it's like, no, get this character off my Screen type of thing. Yeah. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Or get characters on my screen. We had a lot of fun. We grew to love Spike, but we also had a lot of fun picking on Spike. [00:07:32] Speaker A: We did, but it was like, I. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Think that's the best Spike. [00:07:34] Speaker A: No, I agree. And so, like, it just. This season was just so fun to talk, talk about and watch. And I also felt like it wasn't predictable because I think both you and I knew we're gonna love season one. We're gonna love parts of season two. We're not really gonna like. Season three and season four and season five was one of the ones that we just didn't quite know. I think I knew I was gonna like it. You were pretty sure you would like it, but I didn't expect to go in and have my mind changed about several key characters. And I think that was really fun because I don't like it. Everything being so predictable is just boring, you know? So, yeah, season five, to me, was just obviously so refreshing and just a lot of fun. And, man, what a strong way to end the series. And that is ultimately so satisfying to me. Yeah. [00:08:20] Speaker B: I think the thing that I appreciated most after watching the finale, at least, is Gun's arc across the season, because, man, he's like, kind of become, I think, my second favorite character in the show. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. [00:08:34] Speaker B: I just love him so much, and I feel like he was so, so done dirty in season three and four, but I just love how his story ends, and I love what they do with him, especially in the finale, especially after A Hole in the World. I feel like from there on, Gun's arc has just been so freaking good. And it's good in a way that's satisfying and not depressing. It's in a way where it's like, we've lost Gun for so many seasons, but now we have him back. And I just love. That's not something that I remember much from watching the season before, or I guess not. I don't remember appreciating this much in previous watches, but this time around, that's definitely been a highlight for me in this season. Spike has been an absolute pleasure and a highlight in this season, which is so funny, I think, which is so funny. [00:09:28] Speaker A: Shocking to me. Like, I go back to in the Dark when we were both like, ugh, oh, yeah, everything, you little perv. [00:09:35] Speaker B: But now we're like, oh, you little perv. But, like, affectionately. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, like. Like a nephew or something. [00:09:41] Speaker B: Like, oh, yeah, just a little. [00:09:43] Speaker A: You're so annoying. But also, like, you made me laugh. So. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so favorite episode of the season, and then least favorite episode of the season. [00:09:54] Speaker B: Oh, my God, that's hard. [00:09:57] Speaker A: I know. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Okay, favorite episode. Oh, it's between two. I'm gonna pick Not Fade Away because I just thought it was such a good episode. Actually, there's three episodes that I feel like are equally amazing. I put Not Fade Away, but also Smile, Time and Damage are, like, standouts for me. Worst episode. I don't know, to be honest. What's. [00:10:28] Speaker A: I don't remember. [00:10:29] Speaker B: I don't Season. [00:10:30] Speaker A: To me, I don't remember even remember what the name was or the name of the episode was. I can't remember. It's the one with angel with the goldfish pulled out of his stomach. [00:10:38] Speaker B: Oh, Sole Purpose. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Sole Purpose. Yeah. I wasn't, like. I thought that was very, very, very, very redundant. A little goofy. It was fun to watch, but it just. It felt a little irrelevant. Yeah. But, yeah, I agree with you. I. I think I would pick Damage or Not Fade Away as well. Those were by far my favorite two episodes. Yeah. Of the season. [00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I guess I. I didn't really pick a worst episode. For me, maybe, like, the episode where Nina's introduced. I feel like that was. I mean. Yeah, I still like that episode. I didn't, like, not like it. It was just kind of meh. Like, it was just kind of. [00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt like Nina's came early on in the season before, like, the whole angel is feeling, like a lack of conviction theme was getting really, really old and really tired. And so it was like, okay. But then by the time we got to Sole Purpose, I was like, I have seen, like, eight episodes at this point of this exact same theme. Give me something else. I will say I still cackle when I think about, like, the dream sequence of Spike getting the Sean Shu and becoming a real boy and all the lights turning on, and then angel over there with his tie getting shorter and shorter, like, holding his heart. [00:11:49] Speaker B: So ridiculous. So funny. Damn episode. [00:11:52] Speaker A: And everybody, like, shuffling over to the window. [00:11:57] Speaker B: There's, like, spikes. A real boy. [00:12:00] Speaker A: I just can't imagine everybody, like, filming that and being like, we have to do what now. Alexis Denisov being like, I have to what? [00:12:09] Speaker B: That was the episode David Boreana directed to. Sorry, Boo. [00:12:12] Speaker A: They're like, we love you, David. We'll do whatever it is you want us to do. [00:12:15] Speaker B: It's not the directing. It's just the concept of the episode. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:20] Speaker B: That just had us up and, you. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Know, that's why they gave it to him. They're like, he can handle this one for his first. Yeah, there you go. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker A: Okay. So you said you kind of already answered this, but your favorite part of the season, watching guns arc grow and then obviously Spike, the addition of Spike. What's something that you feel like? And this one. This one's hard. I was gonna say something. You feel like the show could have done better this season, and I just think there's not really much it could have because it didn't know that it was being canceled. So. Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:50] Speaker B: One thing I will not better, but I wish we had more of was Connor. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, my gosh. Yes. [00:12:57] Speaker B: I thought we could have used a bit more of that. And I was just thinking about it in the way that, like, my issues with not fade away in the plan. I really feel that if Connor had been introduced a little bit sooner and kind of been set up as, like, the person who's going to take over after or, like, the person who's gonna step in as, like, the fighter for good after not fade Away, I feel like that would have been really cool, kind of, like carrying on his father's legacy. Because, I mean, like I said, I think they survive, but for those who don't think or, like, if they don't survive, like, that would have been nice to set that up, and it would have been kind of a full circle moment, being like, you know, Angel's son is gonna take over his mission. [00:13:39] Speaker A: But would that have been what angel wanted? That's the thing. Because I. I suspect that would have, like, broken Angel's heart because he wanted Connor out of the fight. Like, that's the last thing he says to him. [00:13:49] Speaker B: This is. [00:13:49] Speaker A: This is my fight, not yours or whatever. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Like, to know the amount of stuff. [00:13:53] Speaker B: But I think it would have been. But I think it would have been powerful for Connor to, like, make that choice, to be like, I want to. I have these powers and I have these memories, and I want to do good with it instead of doing bad, you know? But. Yeah, yeah, that's true. [00:14:11] Speaker A: That's valid. I mean, even though it, like, breaks Angel's heart at the same time, like, Connor sees that it's working. [00:14:16] Speaker B: He's going on a suicide mission. So he can. He doesn't get a fool deal with it. Yeah, it's fine. [00:14:21] Speaker A: He'll have bigger things to worry about sooner or later. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:25] Speaker A: That's funny. Could you imagine that? The continuation is the angel does die and not fade away, but he ends up getting, like, sent to hell dimension and Buffy has to, like, Go to Hell dimension to rescue him. [00:14:37] Speaker B: I read a fan fiction just like. [00:14:39] Speaker A: That because I could see that happening. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Actually, this fanfiction that I read. So basically what happens is that after Not Fade Away, Connor is given instructions that if angel dies or, like, something happens, to go seek Buffy and Faith. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Oh. [00:14:55] Speaker B: And so Connor contacts Faith because he's met her before, right? And he was basically like, I don't know where angel is. Like, shit is weird. Turns out Angel, Spike and Illyria were actually sent to Hell, to a hell dimension by this senior partners as, like, punishment and, like, prison. And then Buffy, Faith, Connor and Willow have to, like, open a portal, and they go and they, like, collect the. The survivors, and they all go and, like, hole up in the Hyperion. And Willow puts these, like, protection spells everywhere so they can't find them. And then it's just like, it's. It's actually such a good story. It's unfinished. It's, like 27 chapters or something. It's unfinished, but there's. It's the world building, and it is amazing. There's, like, a new threat, the Circle of the Blackthorn. Like, the senior partners are coming after angel, and they have to, like, figure it out. But it's very much like an ensemble fanfic, and it's really great. And I'm like, this is what I would imagine would happen after Not Fade Away. I would love, like. I would love to see that in, like, live action. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that would actually be quite the twist because, I mean, everyone assumes, oh, angel lived, and in the continuation, him and Buffy are gonna be together. And that's yada, yada. But imagine, like, for most of the continuation, it's no, angel died and Not Fade Away. And then, like, towards the end, Buffy gets the news that, hey, we actually know Angel's alive in a hell dimension. And Buffy's like, I have to go. [00:16:19] Speaker B: I must go collect him. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm probably making it. Yeah. All the stuff that's never gonna ever happen, but I think that would be kind of a cool, cool little thing. Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:16:33] Speaker A: All right, so let's get into some of the questions and comments from our listeners. Starting out hot and strong with Jim. Hi, Sarah and Leia. I was going to write you a dramatic thank you message, but you've been getting that from me through the years, so I'm keeping it short and cute. Thanks for the community you've created that is both unhinged and insightful, by the way, guys. I will. This is our shout out slash Plug for the discord. It is going to remain hot for. Yeah. I don't know how long. Like we're not shutting it down anytime soon. [00:17:00] Speaker B: We love you guys. And they're like there's 200 unread message. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're all ranting about someone or it's Thirst Trap or videos, pictures. [00:17:10] Speaker B: We have a thirst Trap channel. [00:17:13] Speaker A: We do. [00:17:13] Speaker B: We have. [00:17:14] Speaker A: That one is always popping. It's always the food one and the Thirst trap one. Yeah. I always log on and it's always something there. But we have such a fun community which shout out to all you guys. And it is unhinged and it's no pressure. You can come in, you can just lurk, you can talk. There's always someone there. And I think it's going to be so fun and because there's always things to talk about, but especially once the continuation comes out, like for sure it's gonna be fun and I want to start doing some more, like watch parties and stuff. We had to kind of stop that just because we had no time with recording and stuff. But now that we're not going to be recording, it'll be fun to kind of go pick and choose some episodes and we. It's just, it's always so much fun. So if you guys want to join that you have not missed the cutoff and if you want to hear more from us, we're always on there. Good discussions and yeah, so definitely just DM us for the link and everything. But anyway, so Jim says thanks for the community you've created that is both unhinged and insightful. It's not a goodbye, but I have a nice summer. Yes, definitely. Okay, so he has two questions. First one is, with this closing analysis, are you satisfied with the overall narrative of the show? We've talked a lot about the missed opportunities caused by flawed writing and behind the scenes issues. Personally, I walk away satisfied if I take the show as a tragedy about well meaning but fundamentally flawed characters. But I can see how some may find it unsatisfying. Do you think the show does justice to your favorite vampire? Okay, so the first one is, are you satisfied with the overall narrative of the show? [00:18:42] Speaker B: You go first. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Oh, man. See. Okay, guys, just full disclosure. Typically with these kinds of things, I like sit down and read them beforehand and I write out like really thorough like responses. And she didn't come prepared today. You're like me. I know I am. I was like, you know the last one, I'm just gonna wing it. We'll see what happens. So you guys get to see the real, raw, authentic. Am I satisfied with the overall narrative of the show? Yes and no. And that's such a cop out answer. I know, but I like how Jim framed it as personally, I walk away satisfied if I take the show as a tragedy. Because when I first started watching the show, I did not view it that way. And so I think sometime around season four, I think, is when it really hit, I realized that that was what was happening. And I think I did start to appreciate this show because before then I started getting really depressed and it was kind of like I'm watching, like, because I think sometimes angel, the character over on Buffy, obviously he has evolved since then, but I think over on Buffy, there's a white knight feel about him sometimes, and especially the first few seasons. And the show obviously deconstructs him a lot over these five seasons. And so sometimes it was hard to kind of look at this character that I feel like is represented so differently here than on Buffy and go, okay, well, what's Angel? What's like, what feels like the writers just not knowing what to do with him and then also like, narratively what they're doing with the rest of the other characters. And I do think it is supposed to be a tragedy. I especially Wesley's arc, I never saw it as a tragedy until we this rewatch and then realizing what they were doing with the character. And so, yes, that is satisfying 100%. But I also find it unsatisfying for the reasons that I mentioned before, is that I. Sometimes it's hard to see the Angel I love over on Buffy and like the first season and a half, two seasons of this show, and then they drastically kind of change his character. They make him really ridiculously goofy and like, stupid goofy, not just like fun, silly goofy. And so sometimes it's a little unsatisfying to like, watch this character that I kind of do feel like is a little bit more noble, do some, like, not so great things and kind of compromise and go, I don't know if I could, like, resolve that with the character that I knew over on Buffy, but maybe this is who he really is. And so for me, that's kind of hard. But I also could have a romanticized view of angel because I prefer him how he's portrayed in Buffy. But I do appreciate that he's layered in this show and I do appreciate that he is flawed. And I think that that always makes a character very interesting. So, yeah. Do you think the show does justice to your favorite vampire. [00:21:30] Speaker B: I want to. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Say yes, but I also just kind of feel like no in some ways. So, yeah, kind of. And I know that's kind of a cop out, but, like, I don't know. I'm not 100% satisfied. Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker B: What's the first question again? [00:21:43] Speaker A: Are you satisfied with the overall narrative of the show? [00:21:46] Speaker B: Overall narrative? Yeah. I think for that question, I'm probably going to be in the same boat as you, where I think I never particularly saw it as a tragedy when I've watched it in the past, but talking to Jim and kind of seeing, like, his perspective, it did kind of like. Like, a light kind of went off in my head at some point. I think it, for me was probably in season three, when Connor get. Gets taken, where I was like, okay, like, this is. This is not. This is not the show that, like, I think thought it was. This is something different. And this is. It is depressing. But I think that's the point. I just. I think I just have a bit of a hard time with the overall narrative because I feel like it's really inconsistent for me in a lot of spots. Yes, there's a lot of whiplash. [00:22:38] Speaker A: So it's hard to completely nail down who angel and some of these characters are, because it really does feel like he changes from episode to episode sometimes. [00:22:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker B: And, like, for me, I. I can see how the angel from Buffy evolves into this. Like, I feel like there's parts of him on Buffy that are still present here, like he's still the same Angel. I just feel like sometimes on this show, they tend to sacrifice characterization in order to push forward a story. And I feel like they do that sometimes with not just angel, but all the characters. But I do appreciate that he gets to be the main character. And I always say this, but I don't always have to like the character in order to find them interesting and in order to want to watch their journey. I think there are certain parts, like, I'm not gonna lie, there are certain parts of this show where I didn't really want to watch Angel's journey because the story that they were trying to tell was just not of interest to me. But I think overall, it is really nice to get to see him, like, have different sides to him. Certain sides. I don't really love certain sides. I do. I don't think that would have ever been possible if he had stayed on Buffy. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that, like, I'm grateful that he got to become the character that he became because otherwise, I think he would have just continued to be, like, a side character, which. A really important one. Right. Like, on Buffy, he was really important, but I don't think he would have. Have been. We would have been able to see this many facets of him. We would have never been able to see his past. Like, all the interesting parts of Angel's story, we got to see a lot of them materialize in this show, even if we knew about them on Buffy. So I really do appreciate that. But, yeah, it's kind of. I'm a yes and no also on both questions. [00:24:29] Speaker A: I think I appreciate that the show was willing to let him be messy. I mean, this is a vampire. Let's let him be messy and, like, let's make him make questionable decisions and stuff. And I really, really appreciate that. Yeah, I think. I think you're right. I think you nailed it. It's just. It felt like the writing was inconsistent at times. And so it was just like, there were times where, like you said, the characterization was sacrificed for the plot. And it was like I found myself not just with angel, with other characters, scratching my head and going, I don't think a character would. This character would do or say this. And so it just kind of pulled me out of certain things. And I think. I think I would have been a lot more satisfied with the show if they had been more consistent with the narrative and with their characters. And also, there's a question from. I think it's Addie later on that I think adds insight to this. But this idea of, like, if they knew what they were doing with angel and how to write for him, I think they would have written more consistently because the character they're the most consistent with is Wesley. And it's because they always knew what they wanted to do with Wesley. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not just an angel thing. It's also, like, Cordelia. We know this, like, you know, with her. With. I won't say as much gun. He just more just fades to the background. Yeah, but it just. It was very apparent they didn't know what to do with certain characters. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Okay. So I feel like a part of the reason that I. Maybe the narrative isn't as consistent, too, is because. Or at least I'm not as satisfied with the narrative, has to do with the fact that this show, a lot of the time, requires you to just accept certain things without much explanation. You know what I mean? Like, we talked about this so much across the entire show where, like, something will just happen or, like, aging up Cordelia or, you know, portals opening here. Like, there's just certain things that you just have to accept in order to buy into the story. And I found that I just was having a hard time at certain points, except accepting certain things because if I think about it too much, I start to not buy it, lose interest type of thing. And I feel like you are required to do a lot of suspension of disbelief on the show in order to buy certain storylines. And that's something that I really struggled with is basically the gist of what I'm trying to say. So in that sense, the narrative wasn't. Isn't satisfying to me because I want to be able to watch a show and just be able to get to that point from the story and not having to kind of convince myself. Like I want the story to convince me. And I don't want to have to convince myself that this thing is the way that it is, you know, which. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Is so interesting because that is my. And I think a lot of other people's biggest gripe about season seven of. Of Buffy because you're. You have to suspend your disbelief. If we've never heard about potentials ever before. And also Giles acting this way, we don't know why. So we have to kind of write in our heads why Giles is suddenly acting in a way that I won't necessarily say is 100% out of character. I could see him leading to this place, but I have to fill in the holes myself. And then, I mean, we just cover to get it done. But Buffy's rejecting power, and yet at the same time, she's never struggled to think it was Queen. C has Layers pointed this out to me, and I agree with this. It's like Buffy's never struggled with having too much power ever before on the entire show. So there's a lot of things that. And again, the. The common flaw with that season and a lot of that we struggle with angel, is they're sacrificing characterization for plot. And you and I, we've talked about this on the Discord. I don't know if we talked about it here, but you and I, we have to buy into the characters. We have to care about the characters. We are very character driven people, which is why we love these shows. Because typically a strength of the Joss Whedon shows is they are very character centric. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's why I have a hard time getting into other shows because I feel like the characters are not as strong as the characters on these shows. It's more about brings me back 20 years later to the Buffyverse. It's because I give so many shits about the characters. [00:28:33] Speaker A: But I suspect Leia. The big shift that happened with Buffy and really started happening with angel was shows became less episodic and more serialized. And I mean, look at X Files and stuff. People really love Mulder and Sully. Like, those are two characters people really, really love. And when you have Monster of the Week episodes, your entire premise is centered around these two characters or ensemble of characters. And the monsters and stuff are just set dressing. There's not as much thought put into an overarching story. But once the writers had to start thinking about whole overarching story, there's less attention and focus on the nitty gritty details in the charact interactions. It becomes about how do they fit into the bigger, larger puzzle. And the characters become secondary to the plot. And I suspect that's what we kind of see happening in stories and in shows nowadays. It's a lot harder to connect to characters because writers are thinking big picture, not so much little picture, you know? [00:29:34] Speaker B: Well, I mean, also today they only have eight episodes to get everything. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, bring back filler episodes. [00:29:39] Speaker B: Genuinely, you can't develop your characters sufficiently to make them, you know, to make your audience, like, really care for them. I think it's impossible to have the best actor. And, like, I don't even know if. [00:29:57] Speaker A: There'S been two or three years in. In 2025's Internet, the age of our Internet, where things go viral and the next day you forget about it. Like, you can't. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Shows get made, you get eight episodes, and then it's gone for three years. [00:30:11] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. [00:30:13] Speaker B: You can't stop about the characters. [00:30:15] Speaker A: So I think it's just very, very hard to find things that you resonate. And that's why oftentimes I refuse to watch shows these days until they've released at least a couple seasons, because I just don't want to wait so long to watch stuff and. But yeah, I think that that is a big part of why you and I struggled to connect with angel, the series, because there was a lot of sacrificing characterization for the plot. And you and I are very much character people. All right. And so that was only one of Jim's questions, even though he packed, like, three into that one. The second one is, what are your top two to three scenes or moments or storylines that will stay with you forever from the entire series? [00:30:55] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:30:56] Speaker A: I know, right? Two to three, just probably whatever pops in your brain first. Yeah. [00:31:02] Speaker B: I mean, the first thing that pops into my brain is, obviously, I will remember you. The scene at the end. I mean, so many scenes in that episode are just so good and burned into my brain. The scene where Darla gives birth in the alley in Lullaby. That's one of the most beautiful scenes ever. Ever, Ever. The scene with Connor and Angel at the end of Home. That one breaks my heart, obviously. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:36] Speaker B: The scene in. Are you now or have you ever been like, at the end? [00:31:38] Speaker A: That one for me. 100. [00:31:40] Speaker B: When the lady dies, Judy dies. That one is so freaking good. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:31:44] Speaker B: There's just, like, so many great scenes. [00:31:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:47] Speaker B: When Doyle dies. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I just. [00:31:52] Speaker B: There's, like, too many to name. [00:31:53] Speaker A: Yeah. There are so many great moments in this show. I won't say there are so many great, great episodes because, like, I think there are good episodes, but, like, truly great episodes are, I think, a little bit harder for me to come by. But, yes, I agree with you. I will remember you, of course. But then also Faith sobbing in the alleyway. Yes, that one. I forgot my brain. I just can't get over that one. Are you now or have you ever been that. That episode? Like, the whole thing, but at the very end, obviously. Yeah, it's just incredible. Darla's birth, hands down. Or even just like that. That whole episode, like, her sobbing to angel on the rooftop about how, like, she's not gonna love him. [00:32:38] Speaker B: So beautiful. [00:32:39] Speaker A: And. Yeah, I just. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Trial. [00:32:42] Speaker A: The trial. Yes. The trial is so good. I'm, like, trying to. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Like, the last scene of the trial is probably one of my favorite scenes where they're in the hotel room and they're, like, sharing a really intimate moment, and then comes in. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Gosh. Yes. 100. [00:32:57] Speaker B: And then it closes on Angels. Like, the most devastated face you could ever see. Just unbelievable acting. Such a great scene. [00:33:05] Speaker A: I think, for me. I think about it, like, quite frequently. I don't remember which episode I think it is actually. It's Lullaby, the episode where Holt has to kill. Holt has to kill his daughter because. Oh, yeah, that was Angela. Like, that just sticks out to me as one of the darkest things I've ever seen on television. Like, it's just so dark, but I just. It's, like, good. I love it. And then season five has actually had so many of those moments. [00:33:33] Speaker B: Like, oh, angel and Spike at the end of the episode. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Yes, that last one. So good. So powerful. Obviously, a hole in the world I can't unsee. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Oh, God. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Why can't I say, like, yeah, exactly. [00:33:48] Speaker B: Too fresh. [00:33:49] Speaker A: There's just. There are. There are a lot of moments. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Let's go to work. The final scene of the show is. Is perfect. Just perfection. Amazing. [00:33:58] Speaker A: Yeah. There are just. There are a lot of moments in this show where. And that's why, like. That's why, like, you know, do I think that, like, am I satisfied with the overall narrative of the show? I can't 100 say yes, because the show had the potential to be greater than what we ended up getting. It still, like, had great moments, but it wasn't consistently great. It was so uneven that it just. Just. That's what makes it really hard when I watch those moments. And I'm like, this is just brilliant. This is just such good storytelling. But it's just ultimately, like, it falls flat in some ways, and so it makes a little bit harder. But obviously, when this show is great. Oh, my gosh. It's some of the best television I've ever seen, you know. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Orus. [00:34:39] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Orpheus. Yeah. Right. Like, there's just. There's so many good moments, and it's those moments that keep me coming back to this show over and over again, honestly. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Eternity. I just keep thinking of, like, different. The episode where the kid had no soul, like, that was so chilling. Just so many good. [00:35:01] Speaker A: And I personally. I personally really loved parting gifts. I really loved that episode where Cordelia gets the visions and how the show dealt with Doyle's death and then her experiencing the visions and then just really. [00:35:13] Speaker B: Struggling with that and chant. To chant you in la. That was really powerful. Yeah, that was probably, like, what some of the best, like, Cordelia stuff, I would say. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yes, thank you for asking us that question, Jim, because I think, like, it's so easy to think about all the things that you dislike or weren't happy with and satisfied. But obviously, I also want to talk about the reasons why we started the show to begin with, too, you know, for sure, so. [00:35:36] Speaker B: For sure. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Robbie says, why do you think the show hit a creative high in season five when most shows hit earlier? And can you explain to me in detail how you are both always correct about everything? Well, Robbie, it began a long, long time ago when I had childhood trauma, and in order to cope with my family, I had looking at me like, are you really gonna go into this? I had to be right about everything in order to survive. So now I'm just correct all the time. [00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Me, I just have good taste, a great personality, and a great Sense of humor. That's fabulous. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Fabulous nails and good hair, too, so. [00:36:21] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. That's. That those are the criteria. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Perfect trauma and just perfection. [00:36:25] Speaker B: The best opinions. Yeah, that's exactly. [00:36:30] Speaker A: But okay. Why do we think the show hit a creative high in season five when most shows hit it earlier? [00:36:35] Speaker B: Honestly, because I think it didn't have anywhere else to go but up at that point. [00:36:42] Speaker A: That might be the truest thing you've ever said. [00:36:46] Speaker B: And this is coming from somebody who, like, didn't absolutely hate season four. I just. I do think that they had to do something drastically different after season four because it was just so intense. And I think the reason that season five is so good is that they took the biggest risk ever, and they reinvented the show so drastically. And honestly, I think going to Wolfram and Hart was such a great decision. Like, that just made so much sense because that's been the antagonist since season one. And to have your heroes be, like, in the Beast of the. Or, sorry, in the belly of the antagonist that's been there the whole show is, like, brilliant. Yeah. I think it's because they took a risk. Like, honestly, I think that's why. And I feel like sometimes it. Like, it could have felt flat on its face, but I think it was, like, a combination of elements that made it work really well. Like, I think bringing Spike on was really amazing to circle things back over to, like, angel, the character, because we were really missing that, I think, from the. From season three and four. So bringing Spike on Illyria, having Lindsey come back was amazing. Having the memory wipe, like, that all created tension that worked overall. And then I think on top of the fact that, like, we just. We needed to see them somewhere else, which I guess ties back into, like, reinventing the show. So I think that's my answer. What do you think? [00:38:19] Speaker A: No. Yeah. I don't think I'm gonna top that answer. Because I think that's probably. I mean, because you could say they did take a creative risk with season four, and it just fell flat. [00:38:28] Speaker B: But it didn't. But it didn't for a lot of people, to be fair. I just think. I just think season four is, like, so heavy. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:37] Speaker B: And you have to. You can't. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Like, what. [00:38:39] Speaker B: What were they gonna do after season four if not what they did in season five? Like, I genuinely cannot imagine going back to how the show was before season four in any way, shape or form. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Yeah, they couldn't. [00:38:52] Speaker B: They had to do something completely new, which is. Which was the right decision that they Made. I think ultimately, yeah. [00:39:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I suspect that, like, they wrote, like you said, they wrote themselves into a corner. They realized with season three and four that, like, oh, things are different. And on top of the fact that they also got rid of one of the main cast too. And so it was like, we have to do something different. We have to. We have to find a way to continue on without the visions. We have to find a way. So, like, okay, so the powers that be are kind of no longer here. So what is motivating them? What's keeping them? What if we say, oh, they're completely disenfranchised and they go from there? So, yeah, I, I do think that is, that is the case. And I think that it's possible that if they had, say, written what they had planned for season five in season three, the show probably would have gone on for a lot longer. Like, imagine that we start, they move straight to Wolfram and Hart in season five after Beige, angel gets, you know, disenfranchised with everything. And then, you know, obviously the characters weren't quite ready at that point. But I do think that. I think the show had to go through some pretty major bumps in order to get to a new place creatively. And yeah, it just, it just paid off. It really does feel like it's just lightning in a bottle. It just, just worked out for them. And I don't know that there was necessarily like a specific, like, planned reason why, you know. Yeah, but. Yeah, okay. And then Tara says, what is your ideal season six and how would you have ended season five if there was a season six? I like the idea of it ending it the same way they did. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Season six, for me, they would survive. Something would happen where they would defeat those demons. Like, I don't know if. I mean, ideally, just because I want a big ass crossover like Buffy and the Slayers and Faith and Willow would show up and help them. I think they rebuild Los Angeles. I think that they go back to the Hyperion or. I mean, if we're, if it's going to be a season six, it's got to be like in the. Angel. The universe. Angel to show the universe. But. But I think, you know, we would have seen more of Nina and Werewolf stuff. I would have loved to see more Anne. Like, I would have loved for Anne to become part of the main cast. [00:41:19] Speaker A: That would have been so cool. [00:41:21] Speaker B: I would have, I wanted like to see the characters, especially angel, just like grapple with what happened the previous season. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Continue to feel the consequences for all of those questionable, sketchy decisions they made with a lot of power, and now they don't have as much power and they're dealing with those repercussions. That would. Yeah, that would be pretty rough. [00:41:40] Speaker B: I think it would have been really. Because I know in the comics, Gun gets turned into a vampire. I think that would have been really cool, actually. [00:41:48] Speaker A: I'm so curious what they would be like. [00:41:50] Speaker B: The Big Bad of season six, for example, and then maybe end with him, like, getting his soul back or something. And now there's three vampires with souls. Oh, my gosh. [00:42:01] Speaker A: Who's the Shanshu for my votes? Got it that way. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Point. [00:42:05] Speaker A: He's earned it. [00:42:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously we've talked about this all season, but Fred and Illyria share like. Like, Fred is able to come out more. That would have been really cool to see. Yeah, there's just so much. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Yeah, there was a lot they could have done. Yeah, I agree. There was something I was going to say, and now I can't even remember it. Oh, I saw a quote, actually, that I forgot to read last episode. I think it was Amy Acker who was talking about it, where there were plans for a season six where they were going to have them basically become like. I did not understand this, but basically become like kind of a mafia type thing where they just go underground and they start, like, trying to defeat demons and big bads that way, not like literal underground, but they kind of go into hiding a little bit because of everything with Wolfram and Hart and the senior partners. And so then they. They have to kind of separate a little bit and go in different directions. And they all are kind of of split up in going after different missions. And I wonder if, like, Angel's idea of sending Spike to different places, if that was going to be a big part of their idea for season six by having the gang separate at times to go out to different places. And I would not be surprised if that was an actual thing because you can tell the show doesn't really know what to do with the characters when they're all in one location. And I think having them in Wolfram and Hart was nice because they could have convenient reasons why for somebody wouldn't be on screen. They're in their bread's in her lab or Wes is in his office. But when they're in the Hyperion, they have to specifically say, oh, so and so is off fighting monsters right now, or whatever. And so I think that having them split off in different locations also allows for them to start bringing in New characters. And I could really see them doing. [00:43:50] Speaker B: That a little bit more, bringing the individuality back. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Which you can see by the end of this season, they were starting to try to do that. Which I was like, hallelujah. Yeah. So my ideal season six would be, let's start having these characters have a little bit more of an outside life. Let's bring in some fresh, some more women. Hopefully Lauren gets to go and have a karaoke bar again, and everybody pretty much leaves him alone. Except they come to him for advice and that's it. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:24] Speaker A: Like, he doesn't have to be a part of all of the messiness of every day. So that would be my ideal season six. [00:44:31] Speaker B: I think I would have loved to see angel and Spike kiss on screen just one time. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Buffy gets to bring the oil. [00:44:43] Speaker B: The oil. They put him in a room, lock them with some oil, turns into a. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Slip and slide everywhere. [00:44:50] Speaker B: They would probably giggle and just, like, push each other. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker B: They would violently into, like, walls and stuff. Because they're little. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Because they're just a bunch of kids. Yeah, exactly. And then out of context, angel says, theories about what season six could have done. Kind of already did that. Brandon from Revamp says, just want to say you're perfect. Thank you. Thank you. [00:45:13] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:45:14] Speaker A: You're perfect, too. [00:45:15] Speaker B: So nice. So perfect. Perfect. You're perfect to me. [00:45:19] Speaker A: And then Mike C underscore, 411. Says, how many times in total do you think angel went vamp face throughout Buffy and Angel, bruh. I don't know. [00:45:28] Speaker B: The limit does not exist. [00:45:30] Speaker A: If you know, let me know, because I. I would be very curious. [00:45:33] Speaker B: I think I'm gonna put a number out there. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I. [00:45:37] Speaker B: 38 times. [00:45:39] Speaker A: I wonder if I can Google it. Actually, let me, like, Google it. I'm gonna get a wrong number, I think. Okay. I'm just curious because I want to know. See, this is what happens when I don't do research before. [00:45:47] Speaker B: I'm gonna guess. Okay, I'm go. Final answer. 46 times. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's got to be somewhere around there. I'm gonna say 35. Just because. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:45:56] Speaker A: Because I don't think it's as much as we think it is. How many times did angel, the character. Oh, we're also including on Buffy too. Vamp out on Buffy and Angel. Isn't this exciting, guys? We're all doing research together. This is what I do before every single episode. Oh, my gosh. AI is stupid. Angel vamped out, lost his soul, and became Angelus twice in the Buffyverse. Yeah. You lie. You lie. You lie. Why did Angel. How many times did Angel. Okay, let's rephrase this. How many times did angel, the character, put on his vampire face? Because we're stupid and we need me to spell it out. [00:46:43] Speaker B: This is what happens when you use AI. [00:46:45] Speaker A: Yeah, and I'm not trying to. It's like, you know how Google automatically just pops it up right there. AI in the television series angel, the character does not put on his vampire face instead, when he experience. Okay, you don't know what you're talking about. I have a podcast. [00:47:01] Speaker B: We need to. We need to just. We're. No, I need to be a guess. [00:47:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a yes. I don't know. If someone knows, let me know, because Google doesn't know. I. I bet you there's probably someone out there who has gone through and counted. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Probably. [00:47:12] Speaker A: If you are that person or you know someone, are you friends with that person, please let me know. Because now. Now it's burning in my brain. I'll find it out one day, and then I'll put on the Discord and the rest of you guys will have to join the Discord to know. So there you go. [00:47:27] Speaker B: I like it. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just gonna say I feel like I forgot about Buffy, so 35 feels kind of low. But then, yeah, I'll just say 35. Yeah. Somewhere around there. What about you, Mike? How many times do you think that angel went pancakes? You tell us. That girl with the goofy name says, thank you both for the amazing podcast and community you've created. Thank you. [00:47:49] Speaker B: That's so nice. That's Jules. [00:47:52] Speaker A: I love you, Jules. And then I love you, Chris Irvine, underscore the third says, why was Eve even there? [00:48:00] Speaker B: Well, Chris, like I told you when I replied to you via dm, it's because we needed to have somebody there for Lindsay to absolutely despise. He hates that girl. We needed an other enemy for Lindsay other than Angel. That's why Eve was there. [00:48:19] Speaker A: We needed Lindsay to take a bite out of that apple and then have it. Have him thrown into. Thrown out of the. [00:48:26] Speaker B: Don't give me stank face. [00:48:27] Speaker A: He's thrown out of the garden after that. So, you know, there's. There's the wrap up of my metaphors. [00:48:32] Speaker B: That's why we have to leave. Okay? [00:48:34] Speaker A: So he can get thrown out of the garden. And you know what? You know who got a big bite of the apple was Angel. So angel took a big bite and he did. Yeah, I wish. I wish. After Lord had shot huge Bite shot. Lindsay, you've been like, oh, and by the way, Eve and Angel slept together, and it's the last thing Lindsay hears as he dies. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Be like, no, it should have been me. Not with Eve. With Angel. [00:49:00] Speaker A: Yeah, with Angel. Exactly. [00:49:02] Speaker B: So funny. [00:49:04] Speaker A: And then Sarah underscore foss. Underscore 007. No, it's just double or.07 says, what am I gonna do without your voices to keep me company and cheer me up? Love you. Well, join the discord if you haven't already. [00:49:18] Speaker B: We love you. [00:49:19] Speaker A: And then stick around, because we'll be back, I'm sure. Yeah, our voices ain't going anywhere. Unfortunately for the rest of you who don't want to hear my. [00:49:28] Speaker B: You're gonna have to hear us yap forever. [00:49:30] Speaker A: I know. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yap, yap, yap. Y. [00:49:34] Speaker A: And then Addie says, my first question is concerning Angel's commitment to the mission. I have always found myself frustrated with the fact that angel seems to need to learn the same lesson over and over again, specifically the importance of the fight. We've seen him rediscover his commitment every season, and he literally acts like he's never made that breakthrough before. I'm curious about what your opinions are regarding why this is such a thing for his character. I can't be the only one that finds this somewhat annoying. No, Addie, you're all alone in this. [00:49:58] Speaker B: You're not. [00:49:59] Speaker A: No one else. No one else thinks this, Jack. Just you. So, no. Yeah. My. My answer is they. They never could pin down Angel's character. They really did not know what to do with him when they nailed him, when they got a good, like, understanding of it. You get the Darla arc. You get fantastic first season. [00:50:20] Speaker B: You get season one, like, end of season one with. [00:50:23] Speaker A: You get season five when they figure out the dynamic between him and Spike. The best. Best parts of this show, hands down, in my opinion, are the times when they knew what to do with angel, the character. And that's why he has to keep learning the same lesson over and over again, because they didn't know what to do, like, how to evolve him past that, which is why there's a lot of deconstructing angel on this series. [00:50:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a part of it is also. And I don't know if this is intentional, but it's the fact that Angel's a vampire at the end of the day. And I feel like I do like this meta reason. There's this whole thing of, you know, he's kind of an arrested development. Like, he'll never, like, he'll always grow and change because he has a soul, but he. He also is a vampire, and that's always going to hold him back. And I think that applies to all vampires. You know, I mean, we even saw Harmony. I mean, I know she doesn't have a soul, and that is even worse. But, you know, she. She changed and evolved over season five, but then she went right back to being good old fucking Harmony, you know, And I feel like, like that's going to be the same with Spike. It's going to be the same with Angel. They're constantly going to have to have that, like, inner battle of reminding themselves why they're doing what they're doing, because they unquestionably have a demon inside of them and a soul. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Not. Not. Not my Angel. Yeah, no, yeah, I. And I. I love that. And I do think that probably is something the writers did struggle with. This idea of, like, Angels, the opposite of. Of like Buffy's thematic thing of adolescence. Then, like, how do we tell the story? And I do think it is beautiful the way that it all blends back in together in the fight never ending and stuff. But yeah, it does make for a really bleak show and also for one that's very redundant at times. Yeah. And then Addie's second question is concerning the show as a whole. What do you think is the biggest missed opportunity? I also want to know what your favorite story arc is. I can guess the ones you two probably despise. Haha. [00:52:26] Speaker B: I guess my favorite. Anything to do with Darla. I think she just added her inclusion, I guess, in her dynamic with angel just added so much depth to the show and to angel, the character. I think Julie Benz is a wonderful actress. I think that she just brings this, like, whimsy to the show that it needs. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. What do you think is the biggest missed opportunity, Connor? Yep. That was gonna be mine too. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:54] Speaker B: Connor. They could have done so much more with him. He's such an interesting character. Just like so much as a concept of a character. He's so unique and so interesting. And I think Vincent Kartheiser is a fine actor. [00:53:10] Speaker A: We saw he's a great actor. His ability to turn on the charm in these past couple of episodes and just like, it was very clear that, like, he was supposed to be one way, the way that we all didn't necessarily like him. And also there was the writing and so, yeah, seeing him like that, I was like, oh, he's charming and he's cute and like. But he also could do Serious and, like, heavy and. Yeah, yeah. [00:53:33] Speaker B: And then the other thing I will say is, for me, it's Cordelia. That's another, I think, missed opportunity. I think giving her the visions was really interesting. I think that her having to come to terms with the world outside of herself through the visions was really interesting, an interesting way to take her character. I think they did a great job for a while, and then I think they made her really uninteresting by making her into this type of character that can, I guess, do no wrong. Like, I think by a missed opportunity, I mean I wish they had allowed Cordelia to be more flawed to messy. Yes, to be more messy. Like, I wish we could have seen the negative consequences, not physically, but, like, internally, with Cordelia. Cordelia having had the visions and not just like, oh, she was duped by Jasmine, or, oh, the visions are killing her, because these are supernatural. You know what I mean? Like, something that's inherently Cordelia. Because I feel like she changes so much across the show and she just turns into this character that is, like, faultless almost, where she's. She's like an idealized version of Cordelia that everybody looks up to, and she's the moral center and she's the nurturer, and she's this and that. And I feel like we lose Cordelia somewhere along the way. And I think that was a big missed opportunity because she could have had a really great arc. But in my opinion, and I know this is controversial, I think her arc really peaked at the end of season two. Like, by the time Pylia had finished, they had done everything that they could have with Cordelia. And I just feel like everything after that was redundant and it made her really uninteresting. And then they killed her off and, like, put her in a coma and did all this stuff that was just really gross and such a disservice to the character. So that's definitely a big one, I think. [00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You nailed all of the Ms. Biggest missed opportunities for me, too. Like, Connor and Cordelia. [00:55:35] Speaker B: Do we, like, share a brain cell or something? [00:55:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's our echo chamber just bouncing around, hitting both of us. [00:55:42] Speaker B: We're shooting lasers through the screen right now. [00:55:45] Speaker A: Angel in the slippery room, just constantly whacking our heads against the wall and then having. Sharing the same brain cell. Yeah, I think. I think it's so hard because, like, biggest missed opportunity for sure, to me is Connor and Cordelia. But then I just think about, like, what they could have done with Fred, what they could have Done with Gun. I just. I want. That's one of the things why this show is narratively unsatisfying for me in a lot of ways is because I walk away going, there was so much more we could have gotten out of these characters. [00:56:14] Speaker B: A lot of half baked ideas that never get materialized. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Exactly. And it just makes me so frustrated because it's like, why were you. Why were you, like, overhead there scratching your heads with, like, not sure what you're gonna do? And at times it felt like season three and four, they didn't know what to do with these characters. And I'm like, there is so much we have not really delved into with these characters. So I don't know. And then my favorite story arc, I. If it weren't for the way that they wrote Connor, I think it would be Connor because I just find that such a fascinating and interesting, interesting thing. But I agree with you. I think it would either be Darla or Faith. I think. Yeah. Every time they brought Faith in, utilized so well and the way that it's worked. Worked like Orpheus is just such a fantastic end to her arc over here on angel and. Oh, I just love it every time she comes on. It's just so good. All right, so that's the end of our questions from our listeners. So I have a couple for you. Unless you. If you have any, you can throw some in too. Oh, my God, you brought this one up. But now for like, kind of the series overview. What's your favorite, like, candy episode of the series? [00:57:28] Speaker B: Oh, I want to say the girl in question. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's just so funny. [00:57:34] Speaker A: Fire. Okay. [00:57:36] Speaker B: Also sense insensitivity is, like, hilarious to me. It's. It's so funny. Yeah. What's yours? [00:57:43] Speaker A: Oh, it's the girl in question. Because I know everyone wants me to say smile time since we're at the last candy episode. Is it not? Because I would think. Think people would think it's a candy episode. [00:57:55] Speaker B: Isn't candy episode like your guilty little, like, pleasure your kill? [00:57:59] Speaker A: Oh, is that how you define it? [00:58:00] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, it's like the episode that, like, you don't want to tell people that you love because they're gonna judge you, but you, like, it's like the bad eggs. [00:58:08] Speaker A: This, like, this show doesn't have very many candy episodes, so we're just gonna take it. I mean, you could say I. Honestly, Leia, I think Provider is supposed to be a candy episode. [00:58:18] Speaker B: I will literally go to your house and set it on fire. [00:58:22] Speaker A: That means you have to come again. You have to come to do that. And I don't think you want to do that. [00:58:26] Speaker B: Oh, no. I'm so busy. [00:58:28] Speaker A: Like, provider and what's the one guys will be? Not guys will be guys. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Harpe. Noctum. I feel like, might be. [00:58:35] Speaker A: It was the one that was with the tree. That was. That was. What's the word when you are pretending to be someone else? [00:58:45] Speaker B: Oh, couplet. [00:58:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:46] Speaker B: Is it catfishing? [00:58:47] Speaker A: Catfishing. Thank you. I was like, why is this, like, not going directly? [00:58:50] Speaker B: Brain. [00:58:51] Speaker A: Yes. Couplet, I think, is also supposed to be a candy episode. Pile arc could be a candy episode too. [00:58:58] Speaker B: Well, not for me. [00:59:00] Speaker A: Okay. Wow. So judgmental. All right. I think if I thought a little bit harder about it and actually, like, looked up, I maybe could find another one. But the girl in question was just so freaking fun. That slow motion fight scene between Spike and Angel was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Oh, my gosh. That was so funny. So, so funny. I think some people might think Spin the Bottle would even be kind of a candy episode because a lot of it is just like, them being silly. [00:59:26] Speaker B: What is the definition of candy episode? I'm confused. [00:59:29] Speaker A: I thought it was one that you like. You just find so much fun. You throw on because you don't have to think too hard and. [00:59:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:36] Speaker A: You just love it and it's like, just fun. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Okay, so we have different definitions of what candy. [00:59:43] Speaker A: Apparently we do. Well, there goes our last brain ce. [00:59:50] Speaker B: I'm just like, it's the dirty secret episode and I'm over here. [00:59:53] Speaker A: Like. [00:59:55] Speaker B: It'S the fun episode to put on. [00:59:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally. Lullaby would be my favorite candy episode. I'm totally joking. That's not at all. Okay. Favorite episode of the series. I know this is, like, impossible, but if you could just pick three. Oh, my God. [01:00:15] Speaker B: Jesus. Jesus Christ. [01:00:16] Speaker A: Okay, you're gonna say, I will remember you, aren't you? [01:00:18] Speaker B: Because I am who I am. I will remember you. [01:00:21] Speaker A: Of course it's I will remember you, Orpheus. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Orpheus will always have a special place in my heart. I've seen that episode, like, more times than I can count. And are you now or have you ever been? [01:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Are you now or have you ever been? I think might be my favorite episode of the series. I mean, I have several that I love, but that one. Oh, my gosh. It's such a good standalone too. [01:00:42] Speaker B: Do like, yeah, 100. [01:00:44] Speaker A: It's just hopeful. And that's the thing. [01:00:46] Speaker B: Smile Time and I were talking. [01:00:48] Speaker A: There's not much hope in this episode or in this series. So, like, that one just kind of gives me a little bit of hope. Actually, there's a really, a really neat edit that I have saved on my YouTube. I'll have to send it to you. That I really love. It's not hopeful at all, but it reminds me. I'll send it to you. Sorry. My brain is all over the place. My brain cell, my brain has decided to die. Now that I'm at the end of the podcast, it's like realizing how much work I've done the past five years and is so tired that it's just like, yeah, okay, so to wrap everything up before we get a little too crazy, everyone's like, no, keep going. So we've been doing this obviously for almost exactly three years. What is something that you have loved about doing Investigating angel, about podcasting about this show? [01:01:36] Speaker B: Getting to hang out with you every week. [01:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. [01:01:39] Speaker B: Me too. Me too. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Even when we had to do Provider and all those other episodes, it was. [01:01:46] Speaker B: Like, that's what's so fun. [01:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Like, we got to like, I. I love just sitting down and like, either complaining with you or being really excited about an episode. And just like, I don't know, I just, I've learned so much about, like, analysis and just how to look at certain things in TV and in stories and stuff that I would never have have even thought to pay attention to before. And I feel like what I'm taking away from this is like the ability to watch a show now and be able to tell what's happening, like, with ease. With more ease. [01:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Which can be a good or a bad thing. [01:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But I just love that, like, having done this for so long, I've picked up those, like, I feel like I've picked up skills that I didn't have before. And, and that has a lot to do with you because you are so good at just like seeing things that aren't very, like, obvious or looking into deeper meaning or just like, talking about metaphor and themes and stuff. Things that like, the casual viewer would be watching and not really notice just because you're so immersed in the watching experience. Obviously sometimes it can be a double edged sword because, like you said, you could be watching something and like, like, sometimes ignorance is bliss, but then other times, like, I've just found myself, like, just seeing things with, like, newer eyes when I'm watching anything new. And I feel like it's helped me have up, like, a better appreciation for the media that I'm consuming, which I love. You know. [01:03:18] Speaker A: Well, excellent answer. That's exactly what I set it up to be so I can hear all about myself. [01:03:23] Speaker B: Blow smoke up your ass. No. [01:03:26] Speaker A: And I've lost. [01:03:26] Speaker B: Loved. [01:03:27] Speaker A: I've loved. Because, like, I. It's so funny. I was thinking back to, like, when we decided to start this podcast, and I was like, we really didn't know each other very well. [01:03:36] Speaker B: No, we were just like, you like Angel. [01:03:39] Speaker A: I like Angel. Let's talk about Angel. We were so excited, and I think it's been a bonding experience doing this. And I think you have such a love and a passion for these characters that I have developed because of you. You. And you have such a way of, like, looking at them that has given me such a fresh appreciation for the show and, like, your passion for storytelling and for. For the characters. And also, like, you're a great balance for me and my super uber seriousness. You've helped me see the show through not quite such a heavy lens. And also to be more like, hey, like, this is just fun and we can enjoy it for that. Or, hey, like, this is a good episode because, like, here's what the characters are doing. And, like, you're also. I don't think you give yourself enough. Enough credit for how well you understand characters. And like, you. You understand angel better than I do. You understand a lot of these characters better than I do. And so your ability to be able to, like, say, yes, this is something they would do. This is something they wouldn't. Like, everybody's like, oh, Sarah's always like, the head knowledge one. But, like, you have an ability to be able to go, no, this character would do that. And they wouldn't. And I. I trust you on that because you know them so well and you care about them so well. And so it has been refreshing for me, doing this podcast cast, to, like, kind of share in that joy with you and also have, like, a newfound love for the characters because I'm kind of watching them through your eyes as well. And so it's just been fun to, like, do this with someone who's equally passionate and even more so. And that's just been fun because it's like, I think there's a safety in that because we, both of us can geek out and not feel like the other person's like, oh, why do you care so much about that character? You know what I mean? But it's like, no, you care about them too. And so when we're like. Like, when we're talking about the show and we're like, upset because the writing's not great or something. We both feel that. And it's not, like, okay, we'll get. Get over it later. Get over it, Sarah. It's like, no, like, we're frustrated because we love the characters. And so I think that's been something that's been really fun. And I've really appreciated it, just talking about it and doing it with you. And, like, now we're like, friends. Friends. And we were really. So that's definitely, like, for sure. [01:05:52] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, it's been. We've known each other for a long time. Like, probably four, five years. [01:05:57] Speaker A: I think it's four years. Yeah. Four. Four and a half. Ish years. Because wasn't it, like. [01:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:01] Speaker A: Halfway through. I think I had started podcasting. It was like, about halfway through. Like, I want to say 2021, maybe 2022. Yeah. Something in there. Yeah. So it's been a while. [01:06:10] Speaker B: And, like, crazy. [01:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is why we're both, like, willing to do something else. And, I mean, we've already basically said it, but I was going to ask, like, what does the future hold for investigating angel moving forward? And we're still discussing it because we don't know fully yet what it is, but I think both of us have agreed, like, we want to keep podcasting. We obviously need a break. I need a break. [01:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:34] Speaker A: I've been doing this for a while, so we're not going to give a timeline. We don't know when. We're just going to make sure, like, we have time to rest because I don't want to come back too soon and just already be burnout and then it fizzles out. Like, whatever we do, I want to be sustainable. Yeah. So. And I'm not sure what it's going to look like, but we've tossed around a few ideas. Some ideas are doing movies covering anthologies like America Horror Story, and some of the, like, shorter series like Haunting on Hill House or things like that. [01:07:04] Speaker B: The Fall of the House of Usher, things that are just like. You can watch the eight episodes. It's a contained story that starts and ends in the eight episodes. And those ones, I feel like the anthology series that have come out in the last few years have been really, really, really, really good. [01:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They really. [01:07:24] Speaker B: More so than your, like, you know, se. Like, series that have multiple seasons and it's all the same story or whatever. [01:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:33] Speaker B: And I'm a huge fan of American Horror Stories. Sarah's never watched it. [01:07:37] Speaker A: I haven't. [01:07:37] Speaker B: I think she would really like It. [01:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah, and I'm excited, too, because, like, we. We've joked about so much. So many movies that Leia has not seen. There's movies I haven't seen, so we thought, hey, it'd be fun even to, like, introduce each other to things that we haven't seen and stuff. I don't know that we will ever go through a series like we have, just because it's just a lot. It's a lot of work. The format will change a little bit just because, especially if we're watching something I've never seen before, we cannot dive into it as much. Like, all the behind the scenes, because I don't want to get spoilers. So it will change a little bit, but obviously I can't turn off my brain, so I still will be analyzing things the way that I do. So we'll still have that. Yeah. So there's. There's a lot of options. We're not sure yet, but. But we will definitely. We're open. If you guys have stuff you want to suggest. Yeah, let us know. Obviously, follow on our Discord and on our Instagram, too, because when we are ready to come back, that'll probably be one of the first places you guys will hear from us and everything. But, yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for whatever happens, but I'm also really excited for a break. Just being fully honest. [01:08:43] Speaker B: Same, same. But, yeah, I just. Just. I guess one thing I want to say is just thank you to all our listeners for hearing us, like, sticking around for three years, listening to us. Yap. Being in the trenches with us when we were, you know, I. I get that it's hard sometimes to listen to a podcast when the hosts are complaining and stuff, but I'd like to think that, like, for all the complaining that we did, we also said a lot of, like, positive stuff. And I hope that, you know, hopefully. [01:09:10] Speaker A: You still heard our love for the show. [01:09:12] Speaker B: Us. [01:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it wasn't like, oh, I don't want to talk about this. It was. I love the show and I want it to be better, for sure. [01:09:18] Speaker B: And, like, we've met some, you know, everybody that DMS us and, like, interacts on our social media. You guys are so funny, so thoughtful. You have great takes, are always so respectful. Yeah, we have something that I'm, like, so grateful for because I was not gonna lie. I was very, very scared. That's always been like. Honestly, that's been, like, something that I've had anxiety about for, like, the three and a half years that we've been doing this is just knowing how passionate the Buffyverse fandom can be and just like, putting yourself out there and putting your takes out on the Internet for people to hear and criticize. And like, people get angry and they have their opinions and they get offended and stuff, but I feel like we've. For the last three and a half years, we haven't really experienced much of that. And it's been mostly really, really lovely, I think. And we have our, like, Discord that's been. It's just so fun. So that's another part that I, like, really loved about the podcasting experience. I think. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:25] Speaker B: Having the discord, I guess coming to appreciate it now, even though I had anxiety about it as we were doing it, I would be like, oh, my God, I don't want to post this because I don't want to make people mad. But then, yeah, you know, it all. It all worked out in the end. So, yeah. [01:10:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I'm just. A huge thank you to everyone that guested on our podcast that would send in thoughts that engaged. Just commenting on social media, just even just listening and downloading and then letting us know your thoughts afterwards. It's. It's so funny because for. So I said this. You'll hear me when we get to the last episode of Buffy. But so many of you, specifically on Instagram, because that's where I met Leia. That's where I've met so many of you. That's where I've met everybody that has guested on our podcast. It's like our own little community. And I've talked about with this with Brandon over on Revamped and Tony and even Prophecy girls and stuff. It's so funny because I didn't expect to have built so many friendships, and yet, like, they're like Chrissy even, like, there's so many friendships that, that we've created because of this. And that has been something all over the world I never, ever expected. And I. I love that because I think there's so much of a stigma of. Oh, my gosh, you have online friends. It's like, yeah, they. You guys are so much a part, especially those of you on Instagram and on the Discord and stuff. You guys are so much a part of my almost everyday life now. It's so funny. Like, so many of you, I don't even know your real names. I just know your Instagram handle. And yet we talk almost every day or every week. And it's so funny. And we all are talking about this show that we love, and that's one of the reasons. And I think I was. I think I talked about with this with Tony is one of the reasons I'm so excited for the continuation. Whether it's good, whether it's bad, all that stuff is it gives us all a reason to talk to each other more, and it gives us something to discuss moving forward. It's something we're all genuinely excited and passionate about. And I don't know, I'm just excited to. Sorry, I got a bubble in my throat, like, crying, choking up. I'm just excited to talk more with you guys and hear your guys's stuff, thoughts and for us to discuss things just moving forward and continue to dialogue with you guys. And. Yeah, I don't know, it's just. It's been so rewarding, and it's been like the cherry on top of doing the podcast with Leia is having all of you guys and being like, oh, people are listening. Like, it's so fun. So, yeah. [01:12:47] Speaker B: And people are so cool. [01:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah, you all are really cool. I know. You all should start your podcast, then we can go listen to yours. So go do it. Yeah. But thank you again. Thank you. Thank you to everybody who has downloaded, listen, subscribed, all that stuff. This has been such a fun journey, and I'm excited for what the future will hold, you know, so. Me too. All right, guys, until the next time, have a good summer. Bye. Bye. Thanks so much for listening to Investigating Angel. If you enjoyed this podcast, feel free to follow, subscribe, subscribe and review us on all platforms. You can also find us on Instagram at Investigating angel podcast and you can email [email protected].

Other Episodes